April 2, 2024

#15 Reclaiming a Body — Disability, Determination, and the Will to Climb

"Anything worth doing, is worth doing well" Meet Wayne Willoughby- an adaptive rock climber who defied incredible odds and has climbed El Cap, not once, or twice, but a mind-boggling 26 times. 🧗‍♂️🏔️ From battling polio and disabilities since infancy, to suffering terrible injuries, Wayne overcame obstacle after obstacle. 99% of us will never climb El Cap. Wayne has done it not once, or twice, but a record 26 times. 💪 He also became the first adaptive climber to reach the summits of famous...

Show Notes
Transcript

"Anything worth doing, is worth doing well"

Meet Wayne Willoughby- an adaptive rock climber who defied incredible odds and has climbed El Cap, not once, or twice, but a mind-boggling 26 times. 🧗‍♂️🏔️ From battling polio and disabilities since infancy, to suffering terrible injuries, Wayne overcame obstacle after obstacle. 99% of us will never climb El Cap. Wayne has done it not once, or twice, but a record 26 times. 💪

He also became the first adaptive climber to reach the summits of famous, grueling climbs like El Capitan and The Diamond in under 24 hours. ⚡

In this wondrous conversation, and with his infectious yet humble demeanor, Wayne opens up about how he developed the grit, creative problem-solving, and deep gratitude for life's simple gifts that empowered him to defy limitations. 💎

His stoke for the outdoors and sheer refusal to be held back, despite the punishing toll on his body, is straight-up inspiring. 🔥 Whether you're a crusty trad dad or just someone looking for an awesome story of perseverance to get pumped on, buckle up!

🚀 This convo with a real-life superhero still defying the odds well into his 70s will challenge your perspective on what it means to be an elite athlete.

More about Wayne:

Credits extended to:

1. Paradox Sports: https://paradoxsports.org/
2. Blue Water Ropes: https://www.bluewaterropes.com/

---

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Welcome to the Ageless athlete podcast, where we talk to elite adventure, sports icons who inspire and educate us to keep pushing on.

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Thank you for tuning in, and I promise this one will leave your riveted.

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It will challenge your perspective on what it means to be an elite athlete.

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And leave you feeling so inspired.

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What drives someone to achieve the seemingly impossible?

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Meet Wayne, Wayne Willoughby, an adaptive rock climber, who defied incredible odds and has climbed El Capitan in Yosemite.

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Not once or twice, but a mind boggling 26 times.

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From battling polio and disabilities since infancy.

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To suffering, terrible injuries.

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Wayne overcame.

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Obstacle after obstacle.

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He also became the first adaptive climber to reach the summit of famous grueling climbs, like El Cap and the diamond.

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And under 24 hours.

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In this wondrous conversation and with his infectious yet humble demeanor.

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Wayne opened up about how he developed the grit.

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Creative problem solving.

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And deep gratitude for lives, simply gifts.

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That empowered him to defy limitations.

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His stoke for the outdoors and sheer refusal to be held back.

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Despite the punishing toll on his body is straight up inspiring.

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Whether you are a crusty trad head or just someone looking for an awesome story of perseverance to get pumped on buckle up.

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This convo with a real life superhero still define the odds well into his seventies is going to blow your mind.

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And if you like the show.

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Leave a review on Spotify or an apple podcast now.

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I mean it.

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Pause do it now.

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And then come back over here.

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It helps others find the show.

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I thank you from the bottom of my.

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ageless heart.

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Wayne, good to have you on the show.

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To start off with, can you tell us where you are and what did you for breakfast today?

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I had a ham sandwich for breakfast at my, sitting at my computer desk here at the home that I share with my wife and our little kitty, Kaya, in Portland, Oregon.

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Beautiful Portland.

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Love this place so much.

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you sent me some lovely pictures from a hike yesterday.

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Where were you Wayne?

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And, and why is even going on a hike in your beautiful backyard challenging for you?

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well, I have to wear braces, um, as a result of both paralytic polio when I was nine months old, post polio syndrome, which I started dealing with when I was nine years old, unbeknownst to me until I was, I diagnosed myself with it.

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When I was in my thirties and I've also had a lot of other injuries, sadly, I have been hit by cars on my motorcycles and bicycle.

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I have been assaulted many, many, many times, including just two years ago, which have led to really, really, really major, major injuries.

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And then I've had lots of surgeries related to the polio going back to I had two major surgeries before I was two.

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Um, which I had to then learn how to walk using a big, what's called a CAFO, a big metal leg brace on my right leg and a set of parallel bars, throwing my right leg in front of me and holding myself up with the parallel bars.

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So That was my first time learning how to walk again post contracting paralytic polio.

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I walked for three or four days when I was nine months old.

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I was pretty precocious and was able to walk for a few days before I contracted paralytic polio, but then I didn't walk again until I was two in the manner that I just described.

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And then I've had all these other times where I've had major surgeries.

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Learn how to walk again, major injuries, learn how to walk again, you know, trying to continue to be as close to the best that I can be with limitations that have been imposed upon me.

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And so that is why it's just such an incredible blessing to be able to walk again.

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And, It's timely.

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It's very timely, this question, because it's just been in the last three weeks that since the injuries from June of 2022, after those injuries, I could only walk assisted with a pair of hiking poles or one hiking pole, like say in the house, but anytime I would go out.

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And I've just, just started to be able to walk again without a hiking pole, just a few steps here and there.

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And I did take a fall and I got a little too ambitious.

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So now I'm starting to appreciate walking anew in ways that I wouldn't have, had I not been through that.

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Now, there's no way I'm glad that I had to endure what I did, but at the same time, it helps me to keep a perspective of gratitude for what I do have.

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Rather than taking for granted what I have or being upset because I don't have more.

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Instead, now I'm like, Oh, if I could only get back to where I was before those injuries, life would be pretty darn good.

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So it's really all a matter of perspective.

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And for me, it's really a matter of trying to steal myself.

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Make it through each day the best day that I can.

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Keep as much positive energy in my heart as I can and try to make good things come from all of this in terms of I'm also a painter, an oil painter, and I really find myself being challenged just to be able to paint when I have these major injuries.

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So then when I get to the point where I'm recovering a bit, And I can actually paint again, then I appreciated all the new, all the more.

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And maybe before those injuries, I was like, Oh, why do I have to wear this wrist brace just to be able to paint this kind of sucks, it gets in the way.

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And now it's like, wow, how, what a blessing that I'm able to paint.

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Um, so it's really how you frame it.

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It's really how you see it.

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And that is, um, a beautiful thing.

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Thank you, Wayne, uh, remarkable, and, uh, there's so many questions that spring to mind, but just for edification, would you mind just talking Just a little bit on what does, what, how has post polio and, uh, subsequent trauma, how does that physically impact you?

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Which makes, uh, makes doing everyday small things, including other things such as painting, walking and all the other incredible things.

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what are fundamentally your, uh, limitations?

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Well, I have to prioritize my time and my energy because I don't have an abundant, you know, amount that I can just utilize without, you know, You know, thinking about, Oh, what are the obligations that I have?

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Like, I can only paint for so long.

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I can only train so hard.

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I can only, you know, I want to try to be the best that I can be, but I also want to be the best to myself that I can be.

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And as I'm aging and I am 71 now.

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I think a lot about longevity and my wife is a lot younger than me.

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Most of my friends are younger than her, even a lot of, a lot of them, in fact.

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Um, and, and I don't mean to sound that, you know, I, I, I do have friends my age and even older, I'm not trying to say that.

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I am an ageist type of person.

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That wasn't what I was trying to imply.

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I was just saying that I have a lot of motivation and a lot of reason to want to be here as long as I can be functioning at as high of a level as I can be.

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And I think that's true of all of us.

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And if you look at America today, 43.

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7 percent of Americans are obese.

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So this concept is lost on a lot of people.

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And sadly, those people are all going to pay the price.

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you know, you start becoming obese and you start having, I don't need to educate your audience on this topic.

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I'm sure they know it's, you know, you're, you're, you're going to become pre diabetic and you'll eventually become diabetic.

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You're going to have heart problems.

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You're going to have.

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Back problems, you're going to have other joint problems from care, you know, try carrying around.

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I mean, depending on how much over their ideal weight people are, just think what it would do to you if you carried a, let's say, a 50 pound backpack around with you all day long.

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At the end of the day, you would be wiped out.

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Now try doing that in every day with all this fat around your internal organs.

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Anyway, I don't need to go.

00:11:58.188 --> 00:11:58.918
absolutely.

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I think, uh, I think a lot of us take, uh, everyday health for granted.

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you know, that, that adage, youth is wasted on the young.

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and there is maybe a parallel good health is wasted on the healthy.

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But, uh, coming back to you So what I gleaned from that is, you have limited supplies of vitality and you have to be careful how you ration that.

00:12:26.215 --> 00:12:31.588
But outside of that, I believe you also have difficulty using all your limbs.

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oh yeah, no, I wear a ankle support on my left foot, an AFO, which is short for an acronym for assistive foot orthotic.

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Say that 10 times fast.

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I wear a cage type brace on my left knee.

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I wear a wrap brace on my right leg and I wear wrist braces on both wrists and also use elbow supports, tendonitis type, you know, wraps around my forearms when I'm training and, I feel pretty lucky that, you know, I'm able to do all of the things I'm able to do by using those.

00:13:17.157 --> 00:13:51.785
Um, I, and I also walk with hiking poles as I alluded to earlier, and I wish I had discovered those when I was like in grade school, how much easier my life would have been because crutches just ruin your elbows, your shoulders, canes are so hard on your wrists, but hiking poles, and especially if you're using the ones, you know, the modern hiking poles that have the grips below the handle, I'm constantly You know, grabbing that, changing my grip and then I have all these issues of my wrists and arthritis in my wrists.

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And so it's really important for me to be able to have a solid base, which is not me just standing on my feet, but me standing on my feet and having those poles.

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And I really feel so blessed to have figured all of this out and to be able to do the things that I'm doing.

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And you were asking me about my hike and why my hikes mean so much to me.

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And it's because there's been times when I haven't been able to be at as high of a level when I still, I really believe that if you can work through injuries and issues, and maintain some level of fitness without harming yourself further.

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That is really the way to go because it's so hard to get back in shape at any age.

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And especially as you start getting up above, you know, into your fifties, sixties, seventies.

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But with that said, I also think that there are so many people now Who are doing the types of things that I'm doing, following the protocols I'm following, eating a relatively healthy diet, eating smaller portions, always trying to maintain their fitness level to the degree that they're able to, meditating, thinking positive thoughts, surrounding yourself.

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With positive people, which is huge, which I've learned again and again and again, how important that is, you know, those strategies will allow you as you age to Much healthier way and give you the potential to do so much more as you age.

00:15:40.057 --> 00:15:45.569
Wayne, Let me ask you about some of your, uh, early climbing days.

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And as we get into that, what I am intrigued and fascinated by is, growing up, uh, in the 60s, 70s of the last century, I think just being, just being differently abled must have been challenging enough.

00:16:04.305 --> 00:16:09.734
Just measuring up and doing everyday things would have been hard enough.

00:16:10.194 --> 00:16:12.311
What motivated you?

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What pushed you into embracing rock climbing?

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Something that was, something that is difficult and niche, even today for able bodied people, you were out there pushing the frontiers, learning how to climb, being differently abled.

00:16:32.968 --> 00:16:35.918
what gave rise to that passion?

00:16:36.291 --> 00:16:42.412
Well, I've always been drawn to adventure sports.

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even though I was blessed to be able to live in Hawaii when I was a kid.

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for a few years and had some pretty major surgeries done during that time, but still tried to surf to the degree that I was able to as I look back on it now, I realize I should have been knee boarding or even, you know, belly boarding.

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but what did I know?

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I was a kid anyway, but I did get to surf a bit.

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I did have some great rides.

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I did have some great times with friends.

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unfortunately when I was 19, when I was 12, one of the surgeries I had in Hawaii, they took out the growth.

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My right leg was three inches shorter than my left leg because of the paralytic polio.

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And they took out the growth centers, the doctors, At a military hospital in Hawaii, took out the growth centers in my left knee, thinking my legs would grow even, but instead my right leg ended up growing two and a quarter inches longer, so when I was 19, they took out two and a quarter inches of femur from my right leg and put an inch long rod through my hip for a year and a half, I was 10 years into the post polio syndrome, unbeknownst to me, I had no idea what it was at that time, and that certainly didn't make the post polio syndrome any better, certainly didn't make my physical circumstances any better, but it did teach me that I was going to have to work really hard again to get back to where I was before that event.

00:18:12.309 --> 00:18:20.299
And that led me, I had been an age group swimmer, as well as had done the surfing, so I was in the water a lot.

00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:24.049
That led me to get back into a pool and start swimming again.

00:18:24.440 --> 00:18:29.700
And that led me to join the swim team in college and start playing water polo.

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And I was pretty fit.

00:18:31.743 --> 00:18:32.763
and I knew guys.

00:18:33.209 --> 00:18:48.719
That were climbers and I was like, let's yeah, I'd love to try this Let's and I'm and I started out as a boulderer Which is ironic because these days boulderer, you know bouldering is so popular and there's lots of people who are Purely boulderers.

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They don't that's all they do.

00:18:50.278 --> 00:18:50.679
You know,

00:18:51.281 --> 00:18:51.805
So hang on.

00:18:52.025 --> 00:18:52.920
Me understand this.

00:18:52.920 --> 00:19:03.930
So you had post-polio and you had these other issues going on, and you were bouldering in an era before bouldering pads were invented.

00:19:04.544 --> 00:19:08.848
it sounds like you were comfortable taking risks

00:19:09.183 --> 00:19:10.044
Try not to fall.

00:19:10.044 --> 00:19:11.224
Ha ha ha ha.

00:19:11.374 --> 00:19:11.816
Try not How

00:19:11.834 --> 00:19:17.257
supportive was your family, your friends, your community.

00:19:17.557 --> 00:19:19.487
And the reason I ask is.

00:19:20.067 --> 00:19:35.997
I am aware that sometimes when you have differently abled kids born into families who are not accustomed to that, they can be overly protective of those kids and keep them from maybe flourishing into things.

00:19:36.212 --> 00:19:37.173
But here you are.

00:19:37.233 --> 00:19:38.163
You're surfing.

00:19:38.462 --> 00:19:40.202
You are in swim teams.

00:19:40.263 --> 00:19:42.663
You're out there riding motorcycles.

00:19:42.993 --> 00:19:44.942
So, how did your parents deal with that?

00:19:44.942 --> 00:19:51.542
How did your community support It

00:19:51.575 --> 00:20:17.585
My mother had been a ballerina in England, and my father, Mike, I told you a little bit about some of my experience when I was 19, when my dad was 19, he was a side gunner in a B 17 during World War II in the 8th Air Force, which took the highest casualty and injury rate of any branch of the American Armed Forces during World War II.

00:20:18.305 --> 00:20:25.545
extraordinary people And so there was a side of, you know, like they were happy for me.

00:20:25.795 --> 00:20:48.514
I think my dad, it wasn't like he was like, yeah, go climb El Cap, at the same time, he wasn't like, you can't do that, you know, like, and so I think that there, you know, I was really, really, really lucky to have friends who said, one of, one of my early climbing friends who really believed in me was John Backer.

00:20:49.058 --> 00:20:58.489
And when I would talk to John about, because I had wanted to climb, even though I was mainly bouldering, I was bouldering, you know, I was doing okay.

00:20:58.914 --> 00:21:10.475
I knew that with my athletic background, with my drive, and I really wanted to climb El Cap I had seen the first ascent of El Capitan when I was five years old.

00:21:10.870 --> 00:21:12.570
those guys were up there for a long time.

00:21:12.570 --> 00:21:14.980
We lived not terribly far from Yosemite.

00:21:14.980 --> 00:22:14.500
There was, you know, things in the news and the media about it.

00:22:14.509 --> 00:22:22.860
And we went up and, and I can remember standing in El Cap Meadow as a little kid with this metal leg brace on and just thinking, man, these guys are the shit.

00:22:24.120 --> 00:22:37.500
This is it! Come on! And I always carried that memory with me, and so when I did start climbing, my big goal right away, as audacious as it may have sounded, was to climb El Cap.

00:22:37.539 --> 00:22:57.300
And I found out about another adaptive climber who had also had polio, Roger Breedlove, um, we've actually become friends now, and he He had a lesser degree of disability than I did, but he was affected by polio, and still hasn't been affected by the post polio syndrome, luckily for him.

00:22:57.704 --> 00:23:02.512
so when I found out about him, I Bridwelt was the first one who told me about Roger Breedlove.

00:23:03.303 --> 00:23:13.807
And You know, it was like, alright, John Backer thinks I can climb El Cap, Jim Bridwell thinks I can climb El Cap, maybe I can do it.

00:23:13.948 --> 00:23:18.827
And then I had more injuries and I had more setbacks, but eventually I did.

00:23:19.178 --> 00:23:24.518
And I had more injuries and more setbacks, but eventually I got past those and kept going.

00:23:24.518 --> 00:23:30.057
And I'm in a place now where I am taking time off to recover from major injuries.

00:23:30.678 --> 00:23:56.127
But I still have the goal of getting back up there and doing more climbing and I'm really incredibly blessed to have many, many, many partners who are also great friends who are highly interested in getting up there with me again, which is pretty extraordinary for somebody who's 71 with or without my medical history.

00:23:56.468 --> 00:23:57.617
it is so badass.

00:23:57.981 --> 00:24:04.052
Can you describe to us what is climbing El Cap for you?

00:24:04.172 --> 00:24:16.277
And just for everybody's reference also, what is the difference in a normal person Climbing El Cap versus you climbing El Cap.

00:24:16.277 --> 00:24:19.509
You have climbed El Cap a record number of times.

00:24:20.108 --> 00:24:23.549
well, for, let's say for, for an adaptive climber,

00:24:24.178 --> 00:24:25.428
accept it, accept it.

00:24:25.438 --> 00:24:29.468
What I'm getting to is, most climbers out there, 99.

00:24:29.597 --> 00:24:36.055
X percent of all climbers regular or different, they will never climb El Cap.

00:24:36.505 --> 00:24:38.065
Most of us will never climb El Cap.

00:24:38.674 --> 00:24:44.541
Not only have you climbed El Cap, you have climbed El Cap also other walls many, many times.

00:24:44.976 --> 00:24:49.752
would love to hear in your words, what is the experience of climbing El Cap?

00:24:49.757 --> 00:24:50.997
what does it involve?

00:24:51.307 --> 00:24:52.596
How is it like there?

00:24:52.626 --> 00:24:54.666
how is it like being up on the wall?

00:24:55.289 --> 00:24:57.519
and accomplishing that kind of goal.

00:24:58.055 --> 00:25:08.691
for me, you know, my life has been broken up into all these different chapters of, after these injuries, after this car hit me, after this person assaulted me.

00:25:09.016 --> 00:25:20.746
And so, there's different layers, now, when I climbed El Cap the first time, I hadn't had these major injuries in 91, that really, like I couldn't even walk for a long time after that.

00:25:21.160 --> 00:25:22.960
I was able to do a lot more.

00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:26.410
And then as time went on, I had various different things.

00:25:26.630 --> 00:25:30.630
So it's really all been different through the years.

00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:35.779
And I actually had a pretty good run up until I had some pretty serious injuries in 2017.

00:25:37.100 --> 00:25:47.740
Where I was climbing quite a bit and doing quite a few walls and was at a point where maybe I was starting to get a little blase about it and taking it for granted a little bit.

00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:59.470
a short period of time, I set a record on El Cap with my friends, Hans Florain and Brian McRae on the route Bad Seed for my first one day ascent of El Cap.

00:25:59.910 --> 00:26:01.200
And that was extraordinary.

00:26:01.610 --> 00:26:05.140
And then after that I, you know, went through this, went through that.

00:26:05.485 --> 00:26:14.132
And got to a point where we set a record on, a route in Zion, and then had more injuries.

00:26:14.241 --> 00:26:23.554
And even after those injuries, set a record, did the first one day ascent of the aid route on a, anyway, a route in Squamish on the Chief.

00:26:24.048 --> 00:26:28.038
and that was extraordinary to be able to do that.

00:26:28.490 --> 00:26:35.227
I was reading a little bit about your, ascent with Hans, and Brian I actually am familiar with Brian McRae.

00:26:35.227 --> 00:26:38.386
I think that he also goes by flying Brian.

00:26:38.386 --> 00:26:43.817
I think I used to climb at the new river gorge where, uh, Brian, left a legacy.

00:26:43.988 --> 00:26:44.557
behind.

00:26:45.141 --> 00:26:55.555
I remember reading, uh, Wayne, that your climbing style was so different than everybody else's because you could not use your entire body the same way.

00:26:56.005 --> 00:26:58.575
So in essence, you were doing, is that true?

00:26:58.575 --> 00:27:01.154
You were doing thousands of Pull ups

00:27:01.576 --> 00:27:01.846
yeah.

00:27:02.122 --> 00:27:02.832
how is that?

00:27:02.852 --> 00:27:06.892
Like, how is, what do you have to do to get up on a wall?

00:27:06.902 --> 00:27:07.572
What's the routine?

00:27:07.592 --> 00:27:10.001
Like, how do you gear up?

00:27:10.582 --> 00:27:12.092
How do you start climbing?

00:27:12.281 --> 00:27:20.127
How do you exchange, places in all of those 30 odd pitches to get to the top of that monolith?

00:27:20.548 --> 00:27:24.118
well, I wear a sit harness as well as a chest harness.

00:27:24.124 --> 00:27:30.298
I use skateboard, elbow, knee pads, as well as, you know, knee pads on my elbows and my knees.

00:27:30.592 --> 00:28:07.510
And I use a speed stirrup that Hans actually designed, that Yates makes and it's just an adjust, it's like a, as, as the name implies, a stirrup that goes around your foot with a little adjustment on it and you clip that to your system, you know, your, when your jug, I, I have a chest harness, so I have my bottom jug between my sit harness and my chest harness, I'm connected from my sit harness to my jug, know, my, my chest harness and my sit harness, I have a jug in between.

00:28:07.800 --> 00:28:16.961
And then I have my top jug connected to the speed stirrup and connected to my bottom harness.

00:28:17.280 --> 00:28:32.586
So when I throw the top jug up and step up, With the speed harness, then a lot of times I have to pull the rope underneath me through the bottom, Jumar.

00:28:33.307 --> 00:28:37.376
And I also use my hands and my feet a lot on the wall.

00:28:37.537 --> 00:28:45.086
It depends, like if I'm on the chief, for instance, there's lots of places where I'm actually free climbing and just pulling my jugs up.

00:28:45.501 --> 00:28:52.028
And I can remember on one route I did on The Chief, not that many years ago, that I did a whole pitch.

00:28:52.307 --> 00:28:59.887
I free climbed the whole pitch and had to pull my jugs up as I was free climbing, just for the heck of it, just because I could do it, because it was easy free climbing.

00:29:00.357 --> 00:29:06.620
and I do mantles, and I do, you know, I'm actually doing a lot more than just ju marring.

00:29:06.660 --> 00:29:12.125
And then when I'm on, you know, Really steep roots, like on the southeast face where bad seed is.

00:29:12.125 --> 00:29:15.184
Which is the root you were talking about that I did with Hans and Brian.

00:29:15.595 --> 00:29:21.055
And that was the first one day adaptive el cap ascent.

00:29:21.535 --> 00:29:25.795
And before I did that, I didn't even know how my body would react.

00:29:26.289 --> 00:29:34.130
I had tried cleaning, well, I did lurking fear in 94 Was coming back from some major injuries.

00:29:34.130 --> 00:29:37.380
I had climbed the diamond earlier that year and was carried in.

00:29:38.078 --> 00:29:55.364
and that's a big story in that I brought my, I worked and worked and worked and worked and got myself strong enough and used my poles to actually hike in and did three ascents of the diamond in a row, many years later, but, on this ascent of lurking fear that I did in 94, I tried to clean.

00:29:55.403 --> 00:29:57.374
Well, I didn't clean the two traverses.

00:29:57.959 --> 00:30:00.979
because the pitches, it would just take me too long to clean them.

00:30:01.009 --> 00:30:02.209
They're traversing pitches.

00:30:02.889 --> 00:30:06.655
Um, but I cleaned all the other pitches easily.

00:30:06.655 --> 00:30:09.635
It wasn't even a problem for me until I got to the top.

00:30:09.796 --> 00:30:16.605
And then I realized I had been overtaxing my right leg to the point where it didn't even move when I got to the top.

00:30:16.976 --> 00:30:21.375
And the next day I started getting a little bit back and a little bit, but it took a long time.

00:30:21.405 --> 00:30:24.826
And then I realized, okay, I can't really be cleaning.

00:30:24.875 --> 00:30:29.216
I can't really be carrying a rack and taxing this leg to that degree.

00:30:29.333 --> 00:30:34.492
after that, I started doing all my El Capistense, pretty much just my partner's cleaning.

00:30:34.492 --> 00:30:42.803
I would clean, you know, if there was some gear that would be helpful for me to clean and make it easier for the second or whatever, I would do things like that.

00:30:43.073 --> 00:30:51.177
But a lot of times, it would make it harder if I would, so I wouldn't, Anyway, so that was, that was hard for me because I wanted to do more.

00:30:51.177 --> 00:30:54.307
I even, at one point, I wanted to get, you know, back into leading.

00:30:54.497 --> 00:30:58.826
But at the same time, it's like, anytime you are, especially with aid climbing.

00:30:59.241 --> 00:31:04.812
leading even a small fall onto your harness can really screw up your back.

00:31:05.192 --> 00:31:08.802
So I decided leading is probably not in my best interests.

00:31:08.802 --> 00:31:20.371
I'm trying to just be able to walk, you know, and then falling, landing on my legs, that's not going to, you know, so it was really hard for me to to say, all right, this I'm going to be limited to just doing this.

00:31:20.401 --> 00:31:26.951
But at the same time, doing it in a day, was a whole nother thing.

00:31:27.300 --> 00:31:33.621
So then once I started doing One Day A Sense, it was like, okay, all I'm doing is jumeoring.

00:31:34.071 --> 00:31:40.941
Uh, yeah, but it's still hard for anyone, you know, and for me especially.

00:31:40.971 --> 00:31:45.990
And then as you know, like I was saying about Bad Seed, I didn't know how I would react.

00:31:45.990 --> 00:31:47.431
I didn't know how I would do.

00:31:47.810 --> 00:31:51.391
Well, when we got to that last pitch, we actually got off root.

00:31:51.895 --> 00:31:57.556
And we were on a record pace after we went off route and then got back on route.

00:31:57.786 --> 00:32:03.236
We were behind the record pace, so then we just had to really, really, really start busting it out.

00:32:03.780 --> 00:32:09.038
And when we got to the top, I had this giant Esprit 11 mil rope.

00:32:09.068 --> 00:32:10.838
Oh my God, the thing was weight.

00:32:10.848 --> 00:32:11.959
It was like a steel cable.

00:32:11.959 --> 00:32:18.868
It weighed so much and it was going to be most expedient to do the fastest time for them not to fix that rope.

00:32:18.899 --> 00:32:27.134
And for me to clip it to my harness and jug the last pitch with that rope, clips to my harness and me just jugging the line that was already going to the top.

00:32:27.913 --> 00:32:39.683
And, you know, that was like, whoa, I wouldn't have known that I could have found that within myself to do that had I not been there in that position.

00:32:39.693 --> 00:32:41.683
And we broke the record by 45 minutes.

00:32:42.769 --> 00:32:43.170
Hang on.

00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:48.870
So is this, is this the record for normal body people or is this the record for.

00:32:49.064 --> 00:32:49.479
No, no.

00:32:49.479 --> 00:32:50.163
this was the record.

00:32:51.151 --> 00:33:01.321
No, this was the no, and that's why it was such a big thing for me because it was the record for Able Climbers and it was also the first one day ascent of LCAP by any climber.

00:33:01.651 --> 00:33:05.701
And then that opened up the door to me to start doing other one day sense.

00:33:06.049 --> 00:33:08.750
when I did the nose in a day with Hans.

00:33:09.350 --> 00:33:28.049
I didn't really know how my body would react, and then I had, if it wasn't going to be difficult enough already, I had, uh, some Jumars given to me by a sponsor, and didn't use my usual, follow my proper protocol that I normally would follow and use the Jumars I usually use.

00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:34.880
One of those, and I only brought one of them, I brought the top Jumar, and it started failing on me around sickle.

00:33:35.595 --> 00:34:04.429
Like four pitches up and started sliding down the rope and progressively as we got higher and higher on the rope on the route It would slide down and slide down and slide down So that made it way harder, but we were on about a 13 and a half hour pace But we still did it in I think it was 22 21 I forget it was what you know, well under 24 Um, not, you know, super far under, but Hans wasn't too happy about that because we were on such a good pace.

00:34:04.634 --> 00:34:07.595
but he was a trooper and that was incredible.

00:34:07.654 --> 00:34:24.762
I didn't know how my body would react without having a Jumar sliding, but I was able to, you know, so it's really, it's like it's changed for me because of my improving my situation and then my situation, you know, Being worse off because of this, because of that.

00:34:25.092 --> 00:34:27.892
So it's really never been static.

00:34:27.892 --> 00:34:33.412
It's never been like a consistent thing or a protracted period of time.

00:34:33.782 --> 00:34:37.322
And so that's really made my whole climbing career very interesting.

00:34:37.963 --> 00:34:47.313
maybe makes what I have accomplished that much more powerful when I really ruminate on it and really think about it and really reflect on It

00:34:47.890 --> 00:34:48.724
It sounds.

00:34:49.880 --> 00:35:03.922
Extraordinary because You have had to learn how to climb with all kinds of, let's say, body or body evolutionary dynamics.

00:35:04.132 --> 00:35:06.723
You have had a series of changing conditions.

00:35:07.543 --> 00:35:26.931
with which you have been able to somehow cope and retrain yourself how to climb, yeah, which makes it really remarkable because none of us, uh, have to, most of us don't have to, you know, we are dealing with, let's say normal day to day or, uh, let's say aging related or, uh, simple things.

00:35:26.931 --> 00:35:35.398
Like I, I am dealing with some of that myself as I get older, there's some things I can do quite as easily, but it's not that I can't.

00:35:35.639 --> 00:35:42.853
I have had to train myself to use my body in different ways over a 20 year climbing career.

00:35:42.853 --> 00:35:54.742
So I think you've kind of been on your own, Wayne, in learning how to, uh, adapt and, uh, keep, keep pushing yourself and keep honestly pushing the boundaries of climbing.

00:35:55.121 --> 00:36:13.030
Well, you know, I definitely didn't have a template to follow, but at the same time, I did know that the other things that I had done in the past You know, age group swimming, surfing, water polo, riding motorcycles, riding bicycle, you know, hiking, on and off, and I've done a lot of hiking over the years.

00:36:13.030 --> 00:36:54.290
I've done, I've hiked to the top of Half Dome a couple of times, which is no big deal for the average person, but for me, and once I did it, from my house, car to car, from my house to the top of Half Dome and back down, um, that was a pretty big, you know, the other time we had, this is before you couldn't stay on top of Half Dome, like I think it was 1980, um, and we slept the night on top, that was pretty extraordinary, but I did it, you know, like, all in a push to the top, and that's a long way for somebody Who has a leg like mine, but so those, all of those things all prepared me for the things that came after that.

00:36:54.440 --> 00:36:59.820
And all of those things that came after that prepared me for where I am now.

00:36:59.851 --> 00:37:04.920
So it's not like I ever wanted.

00:37:05.375 --> 00:37:12.475
To have greater limitations imposed, but I didn't have a choice once those events transpired.

00:37:12.735 --> 00:37:15.935
And so it was all about how can I make the best of this?

00:37:16.185 --> 00:37:18.605
How can I get to be my best?

00:37:19.346 --> 00:37:56.430
And, but I think a really important thing to bring up also is without the motivation to climb, Um, without the desire to try to make good things come from all of this, without the knowledge, knowing that some people can actually, and have actually been inspired by some of my actions, gives me a huge amount of motivation to do that extra 30 pull ups that day, you know, to do 180 pull ups instead of 150, because when I do get back up on El Cap, I am going to be older.

00:37:56.690 --> 00:38:03.830
I do have a little bit more significant degree of disability now and I'm going to need to be the best that I can possibly be.

00:38:04.115 --> 00:38:08.365
Now, would I be doing 180 pull ups if I wasn't thinking in that way?

00:38:09.005 --> 00:38:14.076
Hell no! You know, there's no way.

00:38:14.105 --> 00:38:19.225
And so that, you know, that is a lesson that maybe somebody else can learn.

00:38:19.485 --> 00:38:25.369
That's taken me a long time to learn through all of these major, major, major injuries and whatnot.

00:38:26.002 --> 00:38:27.267
but I think you get my point.

00:38:27.728 --> 00:38:28.484
I think you nailed it.

00:38:28.969 --> 00:38:36.742
I think it's the power of goal setting, which, is shared across humanity, you you may not want to go out and.

00:38:37.067 --> 00:38:45.800
either do those pull ups or walk the extra mile or burn the midnight oil studying if you did not have a goal to aspire to.

00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:52.417
So I think you said it pretty clearly that you didn't want these challenges.

00:38:52.907 --> 00:39:03.525
These challenges came to you and you reacted to them because that's the only way you were going to be able to meet some of these goals you had with life.

00:39:03.984 --> 00:39:20.665
With climbing with everything else that came your way and I I guess what I'm learning is, you know there were two ways to go about it, which is either you go and You know, grab the proverbial bull by the horns and you do those those countless pullups or you don't your goals.

00:39:20.665 --> 00:39:23.055
And I think the second is not an option.

00:39:23.055 --> 00:39:32.227
You know, one, one sets goals and one wants to go after them and you set a pretty, uh, transformational example of, what it takes.

00:39:32.607 --> 00:39:46.737
And just, I think the power of, aiming high, literally and figuratively and, uh, did you have a community vein of, other differently able climbers with which, and, and the reason I ask is, on a much smaller scale.

00:39:46.737 --> 00:39:51.433
So for example, I am, um, I'm an Indian immigrant and I started climbing in the US.

00:39:52.343 --> 00:39:59.873
I sometimes do miss having, let's say other, you know, brown humans climb with me because I started climbing here and I was like this lone brown guy and,

00:40:00.224 --> 00:40:03.339
Well, at that time, it was a very white dominated sport.

00:40:03.339 --> 00:40:09.840
It was almost all white guys, and now it's changing there's as many women at the crags as there are men someday.

00:40:10.323 --> 00:40:10.884
Exactly.

00:40:10.913 --> 00:40:33.751
And I'm, what I'm saying is, I got only love and support from everybody else, but once in a while I would wonder how would it be to be climbing with other people of my ethnicity or background, but I feel like that in your case, that this is my naive thinking, did you ever, did you have a community of differently abled climbers that you climbed with back then, or even today?

00:40:34.226 --> 00:40:39.806
who understood the specificity of your challenges, your experience.

00:40:39.872 --> 00:40:40.542
no, none.

00:40:40.542 --> 00:40:44.413
No, I, I, like I told you about Roger Breedlove.

00:40:44.452 --> 00:40:46.862
I knew, I knew of his story a little bit.

00:40:47.702 --> 00:40:49.582
He actually was a guide in Yosemite.

00:40:49.582 --> 00:40:55.012
He led clients up Half Dome, I think at least three times, the regular route of Half Dome.

00:40:55.102 --> 00:40:58.682
He led every pitch on an ascent of the Salath.

00:40:59.467 --> 00:41:02.977
in 75, I think it was.

00:41:03.807 --> 00:41:25.574
And, um, he always, he told me, he says, um, I always figured I had one El Capistan in me and I was right, and he could have done many more, but Roger actually, is a brilliant, brilliant, person and was very dedicated to his wife.

00:41:25.812 --> 00:41:43.012
and saw the less than positive aspects of some people's choices of being really dedicated to climbing in the seventies and kind of gave it up and put it off to the side and really focused on his career.

00:41:43.557 --> 00:41:52.307
And now has two daughters who are successful, wonderful, you know, happy, well adjusted.

00:41:52.573 --> 00:41:55.773
has a wonderful relationship with his wife, has had a great life.

00:41:56.173 --> 00:42:01.880
Is still involved with, climbing online and has lots of friends who are climbers.

00:42:02.300 --> 00:42:05.750
But I don't think he's really got a strong desire to keep climbing.

00:42:05.750 --> 00:42:07.490
I don't know why I do, but I do.

00:42:07.765 --> 00:42:09.435
I still want to get up there.

00:42:09.795 --> 00:42:32.177
Um, I am not at a place where I feel my body is ready to get back to it, but I know that it is as I've, you know, now that I'm in my 70s, it's all that more impressive to me, it's like me just continuing on something that I've been doing for a really long time.

00:42:32.177 --> 00:42:33.507
I started climbing in 77.

00:42:34.277 --> 00:42:53.630
Which is a lot of years now, um, and there's been blocks of time where I haven't been able to, but during all of that time, it's always been a consistent desire of mine to try to get back to it, and I mentioned my oil painting, I take a huge amount of inspiration from my clients and pour it into my painting.

00:42:53.975 --> 00:43:08.835
And I realize that and that motivates me to climb even more because that power that I take from that, which infuses all these different aspects of my life makes my painting better.

00:43:08.955 --> 00:43:19.280
And my painting is so important to me that even if it's on a subliminal level, even if it's not something I'm consciously thinking about on a regular basis, it's still there.

00:43:19.342 --> 00:43:19.732
you know.

00:43:20.260 --> 00:43:22.540
yeah, I mean, those, those are beautiful things.

00:43:22.570 --> 00:43:25.260
Those are wonderful things.

00:43:25.690 --> 00:43:37.621
And I don't remember the exact quote from William Blake, but he said something along the lines of the only right way to complain is by expressing yourself in a creative manner.

00:43:39.589 --> 00:43:40.669
There's some depth, in that one.

00:43:41.101 --> 00:43:43.621
And yes, with your painting.

00:43:44.356 --> 00:44:02.898
and you're climbing, I have some side hobbies as well and I feel that when, for example, I do something which is non outdoorsy, I like to go salsa dance and do some other kinds of performing arts stuff and the more I do of that, the more my hunger for the outdoors grows.

00:44:03.368 --> 00:44:22.338
And then when I'm outside, I come back to my, let's say, more urban, uh, passions and they stay ignited because of somehow the, uh, this play between these two different worlds and how they help me find, uh, balance in my own life.

00:44:22.913 --> 00:44:35.027
talking of finding balance, Wayne, you have, been climbing for a long time and climbing at a very high commitment and intensity level.

00:44:35.147 --> 00:44:37.347
How have you supported yourself?

00:44:37.377 --> 00:44:45.416
Uh, what kind of career have you had that has allowed you to, uh, pursue this, very high maintenance passion?

00:44:45.959 --> 00:44:53.939
Well, unfortunately, the postpolio syndrome has limited me to a great degree in terms of what I may have done otherwise.

00:44:54.194 --> 00:45:13.088
I have never been fortunate enough to have, I mean, there was a time when I thought I was going to have A career doing public speaking, but unfortunately I had these major injuries, which made travel really difficult and made the postfolios in room worse.

00:45:13.438 --> 00:45:23.478
I thought that perhaps through making a film and having some of my art in it, it would expose my art to a greater audience because it's so hard.

00:45:23.488 --> 00:45:25.568
The art world is so hard to break into it.

00:45:25.578 --> 00:45:28.468
You really need to be so dedicated and.

00:45:28.908 --> 00:45:54.035
Um, and I'm pretty limited in the number of paintings I can paint and if you're going to get hooked up with the right agent and gallery and all of that, you really need to be really prolific and really, so all of these various different things that I, I mean, am articulate, I believe I could have done well if I had the ability to travel without impacting my health so adversely.

00:45:54.380 --> 00:46:00.139
If I hadn't have had so many setbacks and so many injuries, but that's not the important thing.

00:46:00.139 --> 00:46:08.389
The important thing is that I have continued to follow the things that I felt were most important.

00:46:08.847 --> 00:46:13.877
And I have been able to do pretty well with that.

00:46:14.207 --> 00:46:29.182
I probably will never have, you know, success with my art in the ways that success is, you know, like, it's not necessarily how good your art is, or how, you know, successful your art is.

00:46:29.403 --> 00:46:30.775
Much it touches people.

00:46:30.805 --> 00:46:41.175
It's how much money you can make from it or how you can what what you know How you can sell whatever it is And that's capitalism and that's how it works.

00:46:41.175 --> 00:46:53.501
I understand that But I've been really lucky to have been able to have people who really believed in me So I was able to do my climbs with friends who?

00:46:53.541 --> 00:46:56.871
You weren't expecting great compensation.

00:46:57.041 --> 00:47:00.401
And if I gave them one of my paintings, they were thrilled with that.

00:47:00.701 --> 00:47:07.781
Whereas someone else may have had to hire a guide or two guides, find a way to have porters.

00:47:08.151 --> 00:47:19.001
So I've really done all of my adventures really on the cheap, you know, like I have done it in ways that were sustainable for me, for my particular situation.

00:47:19.396 --> 00:47:20.333
makes a lot of sense.

00:47:20.733 --> 00:47:23.109
You know, you were able to gift.

00:47:23.324 --> 00:47:36.234
Unique items, if I may, to people, labors of love, and in return, people like Hans and others were able to share a part of their craft.

00:47:37.149 --> 00:47:39.809
their time and their labor of love with you.

00:47:39.809 --> 00:47:47.692
So, to me, this is also part of the beauty of, the climbing community, at least how it used to be.

00:47:47.742 --> 00:47:59.707
I think still is in many respects where people will recognize a shared passion and kindred spirits and want to do things together because.

00:48:00.192 --> 00:48:17.391
There is just that shared love for, uh, for the sport moving on, um, before we close this, the chapter out any goals you have with climbing that you are still fired up about specifically, you already have done.

00:48:17.880 --> 00:48:20.850
El cap, I think over 20 times.

00:48:20.910 --> 00:48:25.350
Are you trying to tick all the major, uh, roots on El Cap?

00:48:25.355 --> 00:48:28.140
Are there any other ones which burn your fire?

00:48:28.474 --> 00:48:40.583
No, basically at a point now where I probably am going to wrap LCAP the next time I do it rather than doing the big hike down from the top.

00:48:40.959 --> 00:49:24.763
And it's very likely that I will end up doing a root on the far west face and that way, um, I can wrap, you know, do a root over there on the far left side on the west face and then wrap down and I have a root Chosen to wrap down that's pretty direct and that way I won't have to do it'll make it so much easier Once I top out I won't have to do the long hike and come around and then it not only will be easier for me It'll hypothetically should make it easier for my partners because all we're doing it.

00:49:24.813 --> 00:49:35.830
I can't actually repel I have to be lowered And I have a pretty good system that I use where I clip a sling to my sit harness, wrap it around my line I'm being lowered on.

00:49:36.020 --> 00:49:37.490
Well, there's already a line.

00:49:37.820 --> 00:49:41.270
The first person has gone down, so there's a line going to the anchor.

00:49:41.570 --> 00:49:48.710
So I just put the sling around that, clip it to my harness, and then the sling directs me straight down to the anchor.

00:49:48.710 --> 00:49:49.760
I just have to be lowered.

00:49:50.070 --> 00:50:08.644
And then I use my hands on the wall, and so I pretty much am not necessarily thinking in terms of the longest route, the hardest route, I'm just thinking of how can I stack the, and then I also really want to do it in under 24 hours.

00:50:09.076 --> 00:50:31.821
and so that's kind of where I'm thinking, but I haven't said to myself, if I don't do it, then I will have failed my life No, it's all predicated on how much improvement I can find physically, how good of health I can get myself back into, and I am improving all the time.

00:50:32.391 --> 00:50:35.591
And so that's something that's a really big thing for me.

00:50:35.911 --> 00:50:40.341
is trying to keep that balance going while I still achieve goals.

00:50:40.361 --> 00:50:45.004
And then there's lots of other, routes on other formations that are out there.

00:50:45.317 --> 00:50:56.247
El Cap isn't my only thing that I have in my mind, I definitely would like to climb the chief again, I may go back and do another route in the black Canyon.

00:50:56.697 --> 00:50:58.427
Am I going to climb the diamond again?

00:50:58.677 --> 00:51:00.497
No, definitely not.

00:51:01.247 --> 00:51:29.069
Um, that's, oh, yeah, I mean, and I've done it four times, which is a lot, I only know of one other adaptive climber who has done the diamond, Aaron Ralston, who, you know, the, the film that was made about his, his experience in the desert, and he did it with my friend Timmy O'Neill, and he said after That ascent, that that was the hardest thing he had ever done in his life by the power of ten, climbing the diamond.

00:51:29.572 --> 00:51:30.172
Sure.

00:51:30.326 --> 00:51:31.456
and then the elevation too.

00:51:31.910 --> 00:51:32.750
absolutely.

00:51:33.298 --> 00:51:34.519
you mentioned Timmy.

00:51:35.048 --> 00:51:36.438
And I know Timmy as well.

00:51:36.826 --> 00:51:43.904

#15 Reclaiming a Body — Disability, Determination, and the Will to Climb

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