Feb. 9, 2024

#7 At 77, Not Done Yet — Consistency, Curiosity, and Small Wins

#7 At 77, Not Done Yet — Consistency, Curiosity, and Small Wins
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Season 1

🚀 A dynamo of focus and tenacity – Lee Sheftel is 77 and has been crushing it since forever. At almost 60, achieving 5.14, a 99.9% percentile grade in rock climbing, completing the Grand Teton traverse at 70 – Lee's rewriting the book on aging with power. But here's the kicker – he's not your typical climbing prodigy. Lee spills the beans on his secret training sauce, from biohacking his diet, to experimenting with performance enhancers. Oh, and did I mention he's a piano virtuoso too? 🎹 

Join us as we unravel Lee's extraordinary journey and discover:

  • 🔄 Lee’s routines and habits that allowed him to keep progressing in his 50s and even his 60s
  • ⚡ Continuing to train for power, contrary to accepted wisdom
  • 🥗 Different diets (raw vegan, anyone?) and what worked, what didn’t?
  • 🏋️‍♂️ Mobility, exercise, and physical rehab that has helped Lee bounce back from career-ending injuries
  • 💊 Controversial enhancing supplements and whether they helped
  • 🔍 And finally, radical acceptance - accepting the outcome but continuing the fight

Tune in to be inspired and informed! 🎧



---

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WEBVTT

00:01:08.489 --> 00:01:18.849
Friends, welcome back to the Ageless Athlete Podcast, where we uncover stories and tease out secrets of badass athletes in a quest to stay ageless.

00:01:19.349 --> 00:01:25.439
I'm your host, Kush Khandelwal, bringing you the energy from my mission district bunker in San Francisco.

00:01:25.959 --> 00:01:28.109
Huge shout out to our listeners.

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You rock.

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Today, brace yourself for a very special guest.

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A dynamo of will and tenacity, Lee Sheftal is 77 and has been crushing it since forever.

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Climbing 514 at 59.

00:01:44.199 --> 00:01:47.389
Conquering the Grand Teton Traverse at 70.

00:01:48.069 --> 00:01:51.389
Lee's rewriting the book on aging gracefully.

00:01:51.899 --> 00:01:52.889
But here's the kicker.

00:01:53.370 --> 00:01:55.419
He's not just a climbing sensation.

00:01:56.000 --> 00:01:59.000
Lee spills the beans on his secret training sauce.

00:01:59.530 --> 00:02:04.319
From biohacking his diet to experimenting with performance enhancers.

00:02:04.819 --> 00:02:08.399
Oh, and did I mention he's a piano virtuoso too?

00:02:08.899 --> 00:02:15.949
So get ready for a great episode packed with inspiration, perspiration, and a few surprises.

00:02:16.459 --> 00:02:23.620
Let's roll! And hey, if you're vibing with the energy, share it with a friend who needs a dose of this awesomeness.

00:02:25.846 --> 00:02:26.620
Hi, Lee.

00:02:26.620 --> 00:02:27.935
it's a pleasure to connect,

00:02:28.454 --> 00:02:29.064
quick intros.

00:02:29.064 --> 00:02:31.675
I am in San Francisco this afternoon.

00:02:31.764 --> 00:02:34.104
Uh, where are you located?

00:02:34.637 --> 00:02:35.866
Carbondale, Colorado.

00:02:36.366 --> 00:02:36.997
Excellent.

00:02:37.209 --> 00:02:43.387
right in, uh, the middle of, fantastic, rock climbing and, and the outdoors, in the Rockies.

00:02:43.789 --> 00:02:46.326
Would love to kick off with a, quick intro.

00:02:46.796 --> 00:02:48.747
Where did you grow up?

00:02:48.866 --> 00:02:49.976
what do you do?

00:02:50.466 --> 00:02:51.937
How old are you?

00:02:52.240 --> 00:02:54.579
and what did you have for breakfast today?

00:02:55.192 --> 00:02:56.362
so I'll start with the breakfast.

00:02:56.362 --> 00:02:57.772
I typically don't eat breakfast.

00:02:58.344 --> 00:03:11.788
I eat, well, kind of, I kind of eat a, I guess you could call it a brunch because, I pretty much adhere to intermittent fasting, keep my weight down so I don't eat for at least 15 hours after I eat dinner.

00:03:12.288 --> 00:03:18.858
So that means that I don't start eating until around, the earliest I'll ever eat is around 10 30 or 11 o'clock in the morning.

00:03:19.315 --> 00:03:24.072
I grew up in Long Island, New York, a town called Roslyn.

00:03:24.408 --> 00:03:30.767
throughout my teenage years I was into sports, but I had no idea what climbing was or anything about climbing.

00:03:30.954 --> 00:03:36.182
I was into football, baseball, pretty much every sport that was available at the time.

00:03:36.355 --> 00:03:37.615
I did like the outdoors.

00:03:37.615 --> 00:03:40.094
I went to camp for about four years.

00:03:40.754 --> 00:03:42.675
Where I did a lot of outdoor activities.

00:03:42.824 --> 00:03:54.324
my profession wasn't always this, but it has been for about 40, let me think, since 1980, so about 45 years, I've been a, uh, a tax tax professional.

00:03:54.824 --> 00:03:57.284
I do income taxes for a living.

00:03:57.784 --> 00:03:58.324
Great.

00:03:58.324 --> 00:03:59.884
Uh, and how old are you?

00:03:59.884 --> 00:04:00.875
Uh, Lee?

00:04:01.375 --> 00:04:03.415
I am 77 years old right now.

00:04:03.569 --> 00:04:03.899
Great.

00:04:04.079 --> 00:04:06.000
Uh, seven, seven years young.

00:04:06.500 --> 00:04:06.579
Hmm.

00:04:06.589 --> 00:04:09.170
Thanks for the background, uh, to add to it.

00:04:09.170 --> 00:04:14.795
Uh, what's your, uh, background with, sports where did you begin?

00:04:14.795 --> 00:04:15.485
Rock climbing.

00:04:16.081 --> 00:04:16.682
Let's see.

00:04:16.682 --> 00:04:23.221
I would say that I be, became very attracted to the outdoors almost immediately after I got out of college.

00:04:23.721 --> 00:04:26.002
So that would've been back in 1968.

00:04:26.502 --> 00:04:36.651
And so from 1968 until about 1978, I predominantly hiked, well, hiking.

00:04:37.101 --> 00:04:44.291
I did some sort of like, uh, scrambling, mountaineering type of stuff, but nothing with ropes or anything like that.

00:04:44.831 --> 00:04:47.951
And I got introduced to rock climbing in around 1978.

00:04:48.341 --> 00:05:01.451
the reason why I got into it, actually is very interesting because at my time, my, my girlfriend at the time, uh, we were taking a four month trip in my, uh, camper, and

00:05:02.046 --> 00:05:02.166
Hmm.

00:05:02.291 --> 00:05:04.002
we were in Boulder.

00:05:04.541 --> 00:05:06.072
And we decided to climb it.

00:05:06.701 --> 00:05:10.062
Climb up the flat irons, or actually on the side of the flat irons.

00:05:10.572 --> 00:05:12.882
And I ended up just me, but not her.

00:05:13.481 --> 00:05:18.062
I wandered out on, on one of the flat irons, I think it was the first flat iron.

00:05:18.632 --> 00:05:20.372
I just wandered out on the face.

00:05:20.372 --> 00:05:21.932
I don't know why I even did.

00:05:21.932 --> 00:05:22.171
I did that.

00:05:22.171 --> 00:05:23.012
I just started.

00:05:23.012 --> 00:05:31.942
Next thing I knew, I was actually in fifth class climbing and I didn't know how climb really.

00:05:32.451 --> 00:05:39.792
And it was probably, I'm guessing about 5, 6, 5 7 climbing, and I was terrified and I thought I was gonna die.

00:05:40.513 --> 00:05:49.718
if you live in Boulder, that's like a popular, uh, the Flat Irons, I think at least one of the scrambles on it is, uh, often done, uh, free solo style.

00:05:49.718 --> 00:05:54.999
Like people don't use ropes and it's like a kind of a fun activity these days.

00:05:55.119 --> 00:05:59.499
I, I noticed some people later that day that were rope climbing.

00:05:59.499 --> 00:06:03.249
I think they were being guided and I was like, oh, it's interesting.

00:06:03.249 --> 00:06:04.359
People use ropes.

00:06:04.708 --> 00:06:15.968
but anyway, after I managed obviously not to die and got off that first flat iron, I decided that that was, I liked the idea of climbing, but I don't wanna ever do that again.

00:06:15.968 --> 00:06:21.728
So I hired a 18-year-old kid that a friend of mine told me about to teach me.

00:06:22.228 --> 00:06:23.218
can't remember his name,

00:06:23.338 --> 00:06:24.088
Okay.

00:06:24.598 --> 00:06:25.677
it's been too long ago.

00:06:26.007 --> 00:06:29.687
Anyway, he took me out climbing in Santa Barbara and.

00:06:30.153 --> 00:06:34.189
He taught me how to, you know, how to tie into a rope and how to climb.

00:06:34.189 --> 00:06:35.629
And I think we did top roping.

00:06:35.629 --> 00:06:38.626
And at the end of the day, he asked me, so what do I think?

00:06:38.745 --> 00:06:42.165
I said, I, I don't know where this is, has been all my life.

00:06:42.516 --> 00:06:42.936
Mm-Hmm,

00:06:43.475 --> 00:06:47.838
So at that point on, I pursued the sport, fairly religiously.

00:06:48.276 --> 00:06:59.725
sure, sounds like there was some, uh, fascination, some fear, some intrigue the first time you, uh, you began the sport.

00:06:59.730 --> 00:07:06.189
But I think, uh, soon after, maybe like the rest of us, uh, became an enduring obsession.

00:07:06.730 --> 00:07:11.989
I guess, uh, 35 odd years later, you're still, climbing.

00:07:12.485 --> 00:07:15.756
I wanna talk a little bit about your, uh, your history with climbing.

00:07:16.506 --> 00:07:29.769
And one thing I wanna, point out is, uh, you climbed, you know, the lofty grade of, uh, five 14, I think at the age of, uh, 59 or so.

00:07:30.757 --> 00:07:38.930
do you think you still might be the, uh, the oldest person to have climbed, uh, this grade And then also to a non climber?

00:07:38.935 --> 00:07:42.019
Uh, how would you describe, like the five 14 grade?

00:07:42.470 --> 00:07:46.100
Maybe to somebody who understands running or a different sport.

00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:48.590
Uh, how difficult of a grade is five 14

00:07:49.151 --> 00:07:51.442
well, you know, I mean, these days, uh.

00:07:51.942 --> 00:08:15.016
Uh, five 14 is not that an amma that amazing of a grade because people now for the last 15, 20 years have been just training in gyms and, um, I mean, there were gyms back when I did it when I was 59, but that was 18 years ago, and the training methods were not as sophisticated either, and people weren't starting as young either.

00:08:15.737 --> 00:08:20.076
So, you know, five 14 is, is a, a hard grade.

00:08:20.076 --> 00:08:25.206
It's hard for most people for 99.9% of the climbers out there.

00:08:25.764 --> 00:08:27.024
but there's different types.

00:08:27.653 --> 00:08:34.398
So probably just like there's different type of races for runners, for example, climbing.

00:08:34.638 --> 00:08:41.730
a particular grade like five 14 or any grade for that matter, can be very power oriented, can be really short.

00:08:41.971 --> 00:08:43.110
I've tried a number of them.

00:08:43.775 --> 00:08:44.196
mm-Hmm

00:08:44.355 --> 00:08:52.135
back in New Mexico, I actually got on five 14 and, um, it was so short and so powerful that there was no way I could do the moves.

00:08:52.635 --> 00:09:04.105
There wasn't even, I couldn't, I realized that if I was gonna do a five 14 or, or any, anything, or even five thirteens, that they're gonna have to be oriented, which is what my strength has always been.

00:09:04.105 --> 00:09:07.135
Is endurance climbing, not necessarily power climbing.

00:09:07.635 --> 00:09:08.446
For sure.

00:09:08.946 --> 00:09:10.505
I understand that.

00:09:10.510 --> 00:09:15.696
Uh, you also ran quite a bit or were a runner, so to speak.

00:09:15.755 --> 00:09:18.665
Before, uh, you begun climbing.

00:09:19.145 --> 00:09:27.043
Did you also run with the same aplomb and then did you, did you continue running?

00:09:27.278 --> 00:09:27.769
I entered

00:09:27.769 --> 00:09:31.009
some competitions, but I've never been very good at it.

00:09:31.489 --> 00:09:32.778
I'm, or very fast.

00:09:32.778 --> 00:09:34.908
Anyway, so basically.

00:09:35.408 --> 00:09:38.048
Uh, almost my entire time I was a runner.

00:09:38.288 --> 00:09:43.349
I did it for, for being fit and recreational and I enjoyed running in the mountains.

00:09:43.687 --> 00:09:46.418
yeah, but I, didn't really compete that much.

00:09:46.918 --> 00:09:47.488
Sure.

00:09:47.764 --> 00:10:01.531
going back to, uh, some of the milestones and climbing that you, take some pride and, uh, would love to hear about maybe some things you, uh, that brought you, uh, you know, a sense of accomplishment that also took you, uh, a lot of hard work

00:10:02.201 --> 00:10:07.427
when I started to really get into climbing, back when I, even when I was in Santa Fe, I.

00:10:08.042 --> 00:10:10.262
Which has been 25 years since I've been there.

00:11:08.271 --> 00:11:10.672
And I lived in this house there for five years.

00:11:10.701 --> 00:11:14.122
So starting 30 years ago, I've always had a home wall.

00:11:14.122 --> 00:11:21.558
I And then when I moved to Carbondale, the first thing I did was build a, a climbing wall in my garage.

00:11:22.058 --> 00:11:28.858
Especially then, including now, there wasn't any training facilities actually back then.

00:11:28.858 --> 00:11:29.429
There weren't any.

00:11:29.929 --> 00:11:34.878
So, um, I had to make my own training facility or I had to go outside and climb.

00:11:35.378 --> 00:11:40.598
And yes, I put in a lot, a lot of hard training and hard work

00:11:41.098 --> 00:11:41.519
mm-Hmm.

00:11:41.558 --> 00:11:42.753
accomplish my goals.

00:11:42.753 --> 00:11:49.614
And I, you know, I would train specifically to do certain routes in a specific way.

00:11:49.800 --> 00:11:51.330
over the years I have had.

00:11:51.681 --> 00:11:52.820
a couple of coaches.

00:11:53.376 --> 00:12:02.760
Having a home facility and indoor climbing wall right in your garage, I would have to concur can be an absolute game changer.

00:12:03.121 --> 00:12:06.000
One day, I would love to have one.

00:12:06.421 --> 00:12:06.871
Also.

00:12:08.161 --> 00:12:10.921
Any other accomplishments that you are proud of?

00:12:10.921 --> 00:12:15.540
Flea besides obviously sending the, uh, greater five 14.

00:12:16.298 --> 00:12:24.162
Well, there's a lot of roots and rifle that I found to be quite challenging, actually, probably the hardest, effort that I've ever put into a route.

00:12:24.162 --> 00:12:28.531
Mostly because I was not very experienced at the grade, at the time.

00:12:29.011 --> 00:12:31.761
So my first 13 D route.

00:12:32.186 --> 00:12:33.646
mm-Hmm mm-Hmm.

00:12:34.102 --> 00:12:43.017
at that point I had only done 13 C I've done, at that point, I think I had already climbed maybe two 13 Cs, maybe three, I can't remember.

00:12:43.386 --> 00:12:46.991
those didn't really take me that long to do.

00:12:47.527 --> 00:12:47.947
Mm-Hmm.

00:12:48.402 --> 00:12:48.971
Um.

00:12:49.471 --> 00:12:56.491
I mean, actually it turns out that in Rifle, some of the 13 Bs, B as in boy, took me longer than the 13 Cs.

00:12:56.497 --> 00:12:58.021
I've always told that to a lot of people,

00:12:58.537 --> 00:12:58.656
Hmm.

00:12:58.892 --> 00:12:59.822
just probably'cause of the

00:12:59.967 --> 00:13:00.047
Hmm.

00:13:00.727 --> 00:13:01.231
climbing.

00:13:01.682 --> 00:13:10.576
But anyway, this first 13 D that I tried in, um, rifle or anywhere is called the Bride of Frankenstein.

00:13:11.076 --> 00:13:12.727
And it's fairly short.

00:13:12.906 --> 00:13:22.126
It's not super long, but it attracted me because it's, I could do all the moves pretty quickly and the challenge is putting'em all together.

00:13:22.626 --> 00:13:30.467
And the problem that I had with that route is that I tell everybody that I had zero strategy.

00:13:30.967 --> 00:13:36.096
I didn't really have a strategy, I just started getting on the route, seeing how well they did.

00:13:36.727 --> 00:13:40.477
So I'm guessing I probably have the world's record for how many times I could.

00:13:40.836 --> 00:13:42.997
One, fall the route and still not have done it.

00:13:43.497 --> 00:13:47.836
So what I was doing is warming up on the exactly the same roots.

00:13:48.336 --> 00:13:49.866
It didn't matter how I felt.

00:13:50.106 --> 00:13:52.057
It didn't matter what the weather was like.

00:13:52.557 --> 00:13:52.977
mm-Hmm.

00:13:53.182 --> 00:13:54.501
it could be really hot.

00:13:54.592 --> 00:13:55.882
It could be really cold.

00:13:56.001 --> 00:13:57.322
It didn't make any difference.

00:13:57.442 --> 00:14:02.451
I did the exact same warmups and I go to the root and I tried it two or three times in a day.

00:14:02.999 --> 00:14:04.294
well, I wasn't getting anywhere.

00:14:04.294 --> 00:14:06.604
I just kept one falling the route and not getting anywhere.

00:14:07.203 --> 00:14:11.854
And finally it dawned on me that I ever wanna send this route, I need to come up with a strategy.

00:14:12.354 --> 00:14:13.284
So that's what I did.

00:14:13.784 --> 00:14:14.074
Sure.

00:14:14.574 --> 00:14:27.221
So what I did was, is I put up a route in my garage that was similar, but not, and I told myself that until I can do this route in my garage, which is pretty hard, it's a hard route.

00:14:27.576 --> 00:14:34.060
I finally did it and then I said, now I have to do it at least three times with only a five minute rest in between,

00:14:34.560 --> 00:14:35.780
mm-Hmm mm-Hmm

00:14:35.905 --> 00:14:39.776
and I will not get back on the real route that I'm trying to do on the BRI

00:14:39.891 --> 00:14:40.310
mm-Hmm.

00:14:40.826 --> 00:14:42.865
until I accomplish that.

00:14:42.986 --> 00:14:47.816
So I finally accomplished that and I went back on the route, and the second day I got back on the route I did it.

00:14:48.328 --> 00:14:50.217
I learned that I need to have a strategy

00:14:50.217 --> 00:14:50.876
Sure.

00:14:51.378 --> 00:14:53.719
your replica training, uh, paid off

00:14:54.219 --> 00:14:57.818
Well, so I also did a similar strategy.

00:14:57.818 --> 00:15:03.328
I had a different strategy for, I mean, some people think this route is 14 a also in rifle.

00:15:03.328 --> 00:15:09.298
I mean, a lot of these route in rifle that are rated, I mean, a lot of people think they're probably not somewhere else in the world, 14 a Anyway.

00:15:09.929 --> 00:15:11.429
But the hardest route I ever did is,

00:15:11.628 --> 00:15:16.334
isn't rifle, uh, rifle, like known as the land of, uh, 13 Ds.

00:15:16.844 --> 00:15:25.354
You know that these rods that, that should have been, uh, upgraded to 14 a are are sandbagged and are stuck at that 13 D grade.

00:15:25.624 --> 00:15:29.513
That's 13 d and that's the hardest route I have done in rifle.

00:15:29.874 --> 00:15:37.916
Yeah, no, I, I can see that, uh, you are a, a strategist and I think with climbing, you know, people are

00:15:38.019 --> 00:15:39.849
Famously lackadaisical.

00:15:40.045 --> 00:15:41.173
about their approach.

00:15:41.262 --> 00:15:48.793
And, uh, people will say, Hey, you know, I'm just gonna get on this route and I will try, try, try it until I send it.

00:15:49.303 --> 00:16:07.686
But I think, um, I think you are the contrarian, which is, Hey, this is the, uh, this is the amount of time I'm gonna give myself, and I'm gonna prepare myself with all of this training so that when I actually get back on this route, I actually have a reasonable chance of meeting my objective.

00:16:07.761 --> 00:16:19.267
Well, I felt completely different after that, that that training that I did getting more power because this one crux that I had a hard time with before.

00:16:19.767 --> 00:16:22.436
On the first seven sessions or so, I'd get on that route.

00:16:22.436 --> 00:16:24.537
I get up to the crux and even on the dog,

00:16:25.037 --> 00:16:25.457
Mm-Hmm

00:16:25.622 --> 00:16:26.672
maybe I could do that.

00:16:26.731 --> 00:16:38.001
Those that move one outta three times, that's not a good because considering that it's probably mid five 13 just to get to that move and there is any really great rest right before it.

00:16:38.501 --> 00:16:41.261
So I realized that helped my power.

00:16:41.261 --> 00:16:50.541
But when I got back on the route after training for it, I knew right away I could, I can do this route because it felt completely different.

00:16:51.041 --> 00:16:51.701
Wow.

00:16:52.201 --> 00:16:52.491
Yeah.

00:16:52.497 --> 00:16:52.787
Yeah.

00:16:53.267 --> 00:16:58.116
The before and after effect, pre-training to, uh, to post-training.

00:16:58.116 --> 00:16:58.386
Uh.

00:16:58.886 --> 00:16:59.547
That's great.

00:16:59.547 --> 00:17:04.106
Uh, uh, yeah, that's, that's great summation.

00:17:04.606 --> 00:17:14.686
I am, uh, I'm curious, uh, Lee, you know, you were, uh, embarking to try these, uh, hard roots and, you know, you have some of these first to your name.

00:17:15.186 --> 00:17:17.197
Were there naysayers?

00:17:17.697 --> 00:17:29.884
I'm sure there were, you know, there were probably people who, who thought that, you know, you could not be climbing this hard, or maybe there wasn't actually a precedent of people in their fifties, you know, sending thirties and five fourteens.

00:17:30.634 --> 00:17:49.426
So wondering if there was something, some kind of like belief you had, uh, some conviction that, uh, you know, I don't care, uh, what other people are saying, or, or if there isn't like a, uh, a precedent here, I believe in myself and I know that I can achieve, uh, some of these, uh.

00:17:49.926 --> 00:17:52.777
Uh, climbing goals even if they haven't been done

00:17:53.277 --> 00:17:54.287
mean about my age?

00:17:54.374 --> 00:17:54.947
Yeah.

00:17:55.447 --> 00:17:58.559
Well, okay, so I was a late starter.

00:17:58.559 --> 00:18:01.920
I didn't even start climbing until I was 33 years old.

00:18:02.420 --> 00:18:07.680
So, and I didn't really think about age until I got close to 50.

00:18:08.130 --> 00:18:09.509
So probably around your age.

00:18:10.009 --> 00:18:11.390
And I was like, okay, here I am.

00:18:11.990 --> 00:18:13.009
I'm getting close to 50.

00:18:13.009 --> 00:18:15.769
I wonder if all of a sudden I'm not gonna be able to climb hard anymore.

00:18:16.190 --> 00:18:18.890
So those things, those thoughts did occur to me.

00:18:19.297 --> 00:18:28.326
at the time, I didn't have anybody to look up to that were, that was older than me, that was climbing as hard as I was claiming.

00:18:28.826 --> 00:18:37.297
But I decided that, well, let's, I don't, I'm not, why don't I just not think about my age?

00:18:37.416 --> 00:18:38.586
Who knows what's possible?

00:18:39.086 --> 00:18:40.076
Let's see what happens.

00:18:40.576 --> 00:18:48.213
Well, soon as I turned 50 and into my fifties, I noticed that probably because I didn't start until I was 33.

00:18:48.213 --> 00:18:51.064
And then I, you know, I hadn't really trained very much.

00:18:51.153 --> 00:18:51.963
I just climbed.

00:18:52.084 --> 00:18:57.916
So I was just a, I was not a sport climber until I was about, oh God, let me think.

00:19:54.757 --> 00:19:56.976
That was like the mid eighties.

00:19:57.007 --> 00:19:57.547
So,

00:19:58.047 --> 00:19:58.466
Mm-Hmm

00:19:58.541 --> 00:20:02.287
so I'd only been climbing for about seven years, or eight years when I started

00:20:02.416 --> 00:20:03.951
mm-Hmm mm-Hmm

00:20:04.507 --> 00:20:07.177
I was only 40, 41.

00:20:07.677 --> 00:20:09.866
Before that, I was doing nothing but track climbing.

00:20:09.927 --> 00:20:25.284
So, you know, I did a lot of trad climbing maybe that what might, might have helped me, in the future for sport climbing is that when I went tra climbing, you know, the, the, the conventional wisdom was that you don't fall all

00:20:25.807 --> 00:20:26.096
Yeah.

00:20:26.576 --> 00:20:30.821
especially on bolts, because back then the bolts were not reliable.

00:20:31.321 --> 00:20:33.081
There were, star drills.

00:20:33.366 --> 00:20:35.497
There wasn't, you know, there were shitty bolts.

00:20:36.247 --> 00:20:39.416
And so when sport climbing came around.

00:20:39.635 --> 00:20:41.316
I, that's made sure that it didn't fall.

00:20:41.316 --> 00:20:48.516
Whenever I was track climbing, I did some big, pretty big track climbs, climbed El Cap, I've then the west face of El Cap.

00:20:48.791 --> 00:20:55.602
I climbed the rostrum, I climbed Astro Man, did all these long tra climb.

00:20:56.201 --> 00:20:57.731
I built up a lot of endurance.

00:20:58.152 --> 00:21:05.362
And then, then when I first started sport climbing, I was afraid to fall even on the, obviously the same bolts.

00:21:05.842 --> 00:21:09.642
And my a really good friend of mine, used to make fun of me all the time.

00:21:10.211 --> 00:21:13.092
Used to go, I used to say, well, fell there and go, no, you didn't.

00:21:13.326 --> 00:21:15.612
You, you not, I've never seen you fall, Lee.

00:21:15.612 --> 00:21:23.352
You just, you just take, and so I would battle the pump as hard as I could, and I think that helped me build endurance.

00:21:23.852 --> 00:21:28.412
And then finally I got over the, obviously the fear of falling on bolts.

00:21:28.912 --> 00:21:30.791
And so.

00:21:31.291 --> 00:21:37.322
Back in the mid eighties and late eighties, that's when I really got into sport climbing'cause it also fit my lifestyle better.

00:21:37.741 --> 00:21:41.041
'cause that's when I started my, I started my business.

00:21:41.642 --> 00:21:44.102
This, this that I have now that I still do

00:21:44.602 --> 00:21:44.892
Yeah.

00:21:45.392 --> 00:21:54.052
It required me to be around and I couldn't go traveling all over the place and doing these tra climbs and be, you know, I wanted to build up my, my business.

00:21:54.052 --> 00:22:00.011
So sport climbing came along and that just fit my lifestyle at that time.

00:22:00.568 --> 00:22:05.608
Lee, uh, it's funny, uh, you know, you started tra and went to sport.

00:22:06.118 --> 00:22:12.778
I started climbing sport back in the East coast, you know, at the, uh, at the New River Gorge and the Red River Gorge.

00:22:13.318 --> 00:22:14.989
So when I came to,

00:22:14.989 --> 00:22:16.699
I love the Red River Gorge.

00:22:16.788 --> 00:22:20.806
I have been to the Red River Gorge at least 15 times

00:22:20.806 --> 00:22:21.196
Sure.

00:22:21.201 --> 00:22:25.346
No, I, I don't think anybody, uh, even the most, uh, you know, died in the world.

00:22:25.346 --> 00:22:28.435
Track climbers will go to the red and, and not love the red.

00:22:28.435 --> 00:22:30.086
It's just, uh, it's such a.

00:22:30.586 --> 00:22:31.486
Such a playground.

00:22:31.986 --> 00:22:42.486
So I started climbing and when I came to California I was maybe, uh, you know, extremely stoked on sport climbing, and then came to San Francisco and the best kind of climbing was trad.

00:22:42.996 --> 00:22:46.355
So I was a reluctant, uh, tra climber.

00:22:46.836 --> 00:23:04.149
And I've done like some of the routes that you just mentioned, and I had the opposite problem where I got so used to, uh, you know, falling on bolts that when I got to tra I had a hard time, um, not taking the same approach, which is like I would take falls on, on gear.

00:23:04.153 --> 00:23:12.605
And as a, as a new learner, I think that sometimes terrified my partners where, uh, instead of hanging on, hanging on gear and, sorry.

00:23:12.615 --> 00:23:14.206
have any gear pull on you?

00:23:14.706 --> 00:23:25.540
I have, you know, when I first started, I did have a big fall before I even learned before I, I made some really bad, uh, gumby mistakes before I even learned to place, uh, gear properly.

00:23:25.540 --> 00:23:33.681
Uh, uh, I did have a, uh, like a kind of, uh, a dramatic accident, which I came out fairly un skated.

00:23:34.221 --> 00:23:42.431
Once that happened, I, I went back to the books and, uh, learned how to basically climb tro in a safe, proper way.

00:23:42.941 --> 00:23:46.901
And since then, I don't think I really had any, um, any gear come off.

00:23:46.961 --> 00:23:53.550
Uh, and I think I also became a little bit more careful about not always, uh, you know, whipping, uh, on, on gear.

00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:59.691
But, uh, I don't think I have ever had, uh, any, uh, significant, uh, gear.

00:24:00.171 --> 00:24:05.509
But, uh, coming back to, coming back to you, just continuing on the, the climbing trajectory.

00:24:05.509 --> 00:24:16.430
So you were climbing maybe at your physical best, let's say, uh, upper fifties maybe now, uh, over the last, uh, let's say two decades and leading up to now.

00:24:16.430 --> 00:24:22.460
So today, so to speak, what's your level of, uh, level of climbing and how do you train?

00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:26.355
Okay, so my level of climbing right now is none.

00:24:26.855 --> 00:24:36.625
And the reason for that is, is because as a lot of people that I know me, um, about a little over two months ago, I, I needed to have major back surgery.

00:24:37.125 --> 00:24:37.664
Oh.

00:24:38.164 --> 00:24:40.384
I am still in the recovery process.

00:24:40.884 --> 00:24:49.164
It's been, let me see what is, today is the 19th, so I had November 7th I had my surgery.

00:24:49.664 --> 00:24:53.654
So I'm about almost two and a half months out.

00:24:54.154 --> 00:24:56.225
I have a follow up in about two and a half weeks.

00:24:56.225 --> 00:24:56.255
I.

00:24:56.995 --> 00:24:57.265
With

00:24:58.015 --> 00:24:58.305
Okay.

00:24:58.644 --> 00:24:59.245
office.

00:24:59.745 --> 00:25:06.335
And at that point I'm hoping that they'll give me the go ahead to start training again for climbing back on the age thing.

00:25:06.835 --> 00:25:18.245
To give you a little more of a history is that when I thought I was gonna get weaker at 50 and right at that time period, that's when I moved up here up to Carbondale.

00:25:18.745 --> 00:25:29.055
Actually a couple of that, I think I was 53 and I noticed that I was getting stronger, not weaker,'cause I started to train more, um, methodically

00:25:29.555 --> 00:25:29.975
mm-Hmm.

00:25:30.144 --> 00:25:34.495
and which I had never really done that that much.

00:25:34.525 --> 00:25:40.245
And so I was training more methodically, training, power, campus boarding, stuff like that.

00:25:40.575 --> 00:25:42.674
And I noticed I was getting stronger and better.

00:25:43.174 --> 00:25:46.384
So a lot of the, a lot of it also has to do with getting better too.

00:25:46.414 --> 00:25:47.345
So I think that.

00:25:47.875 --> 00:25:48.164
Yeah.

00:25:48.170 --> 00:26:10.430
One thing I, I realized as I got older and then like I told you, I got, I had, I started changing my strategy and I think an advantage of, of older athletes, depending on are, I mean, some people figure this out when they're in 20 years old, but most, most of the time not, is um, you learn more about conserving energy.

00:26:10.460 --> 00:26:15.430
You learn more about training what works for you, which doesn't work for you.

00:26:15.430 --> 00:26:20.259
You work on your technique, you work, you, you have more patience on a route

00:26:20.765 --> 00:26:21.184
mm-Hmm

00:26:21.250 --> 00:26:22.664
of figuring it out.

00:26:22.964 --> 00:26:32.245
Whereas typically when you're younger, you just, just go for it and you don't necessarily have necessarily a training method or anything.

00:26:32.745 --> 00:26:34.845
So I think that's an advantage of being older.

00:26:34.934 --> 00:26:35.325
Older.

00:26:35.329 --> 00:26:36.255
But at any rate.

00:26:36.755 --> 00:26:41.735
I can, for, for whatever reason, I got better and stronger in my fifties.

00:26:42.235 --> 00:26:47.245
And so I, I would say I, I probably peaked at 58, 59, 60.

00:26:47.845 --> 00:26:50.589
I was climbing my heart out but then

00:26:50.789 --> 00:26:51.390
sure.

00:26:51.714 --> 00:26:59.735
at 60 years old or so, I was 2006 and seven, so I guess I was 60.

00:27:00.235 --> 00:27:10.625
I had both my hips replaced because severe hip arthritis, and so didn't climb very much for quite a while.

00:27:11.125 --> 00:27:11.755
Mm-Hmm

00:27:11.829 --> 00:27:12.100
I did.

00:27:12.105 --> 00:27:13.720
They, they were about seven months apart.

00:27:13.779 --> 00:27:20.620
So the first hip surgery I was, it was climbing season and I obviously, I couldn't climb for a few months.

00:27:21.120 --> 00:27:21.884
And the second hip.

00:27:22.384 --> 00:27:28.360
It was ski season, so again, I couldn't ski until months later.

00:27:28.360 --> 00:27:33.250
But after that hip replacement, I got back at 60.

00:27:33.255 --> 00:27:35.920
I was at that point, I was 61 or 62.

00:27:36.420 --> 00:27:40.490
I did a third, I did a couple 13 seas after the hip surgery.

00:27:40.490 --> 00:27:50.750
So that's the, that's the highest grade I've done after my hip surgeries and I, but I did notice at 65 that I wasn't quite as strong as I used to be.

00:27:51.250 --> 00:27:56.259
I was still able to climb up until, say, see, 65.

00:27:56.964 --> 00:27:58.990
I was still climbing mid five thirteens,

00:27:59.490 --> 00:27:59.910
Mm-Hmm.

00:27:59.995 --> 00:28:01.134
it took me longer to do'em.

00:28:01.634 --> 00:28:02.225
Sure.

00:28:02.339 --> 00:28:07.339
when I hit 70, that was seven years ago, I had to have my first back surgery.

00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:09.005
And after that.

00:28:09.295 --> 00:28:09.714
Sure.

00:28:10.214 --> 00:28:17.674
I don't believe, I think I have not broken back into 13, 5, 13 again after 70.

00:28:18.035 --> 00:28:27.305
So last summer when I was very incapacitated because of my, I had spinal stenosis, severe nerve pain, down my legs.

00:28:27.305 --> 00:28:28.625
I couldn't even walk anymore.

00:28:29.125 --> 00:28:29.545
Oh wow.

00:28:30.045 --> 00:28:36.485
Um, and I got to the point where I couldn't climb anymore, and that's when I decided I needed to have surgery.

00:28:36.490 --> 00:28:41.057
But at that point, even though I was fairly compromised, I was still climbing five 12.

00:28:41.557 --> 00:28:43.117
So that was my level when I quit.

00:28:43.448 --> 00:28:49.178
And my plan right now is if I can get back into it again, I'm hoping to be able to climb some five twelves.

00:28:49.182 --> 00:28:49.327
Again,

00:28:49.827 --> 00:28:49.918
Sure.

00:28:49.918 --> 00:28:56.548
I don't know about climbing harder than that, but again, my attitude is anything's possible.

00:28:56.553 --> 00:28:59.728
So it, I'm not gonna, h is just the number.

00:29:00.228 --> 00:29:06.545
You know, if you tie yourself to your age, then you know, you're, you're actually defeating yourself.

00:29:06.825 --> 00:29:07.384
certainly.

00:29:07.821 --> 00:29:07.951
The

00:29:07.951 --> 00:29:27.470
other thing, I wanted to mention that I feel like, which is not a, not climbing per se, was I decided for my 70th birthday, I was going, I don't, I think you know who, who inspired me at the time was, um, Alex Honnold and, uh, oh, what's his name?

00:29:27.904 --> 00:29:29.015
I can't think of his name right now.

00:29:29.015 --> 00:29:37.664
But anyway, Alex and um, and this other guy who's very famous, I just, his name is just escaping me right now.

00:29:38.345 --> 00:29:41.634
Uh, sport sport climber or track climber or Adam,

00:29:42.140 --> 00:29:42.360
no.

00:29:42.684 --> 00:29:43.345
maybe, or

00:29:43.835 --> 00:29:45.194
Uh, American, Tommy Caldwell.

00:29:45.403 --> 00:29:52.988
Tommy and, Alex went down to somewhere in South America and did the first traverse of a very serious traverse.

00:29:53.488 --> 00:29:56.548
Oh, the Fitz, uh, Fitz Traverse in Patagonia,

00:29:56.738 --> 00:29:59.258
And so that inspired me not to do that.

00:29:59.377 --> 00:29:59.738
But,

00:30:00.113 --> 00:30:00.333
Mm

00:30:00.758 --> 00:30:07.295
and I also had read, um, an article about the Tetons and the Teton Traverse.

00:30:07.985 --> 00:30:17.382
So I decided that for my 70th birthday, my present to myself was gonna be, I was gonna train the year before to be able to do the Teton Traverse.

00:30:17.882 --> 00:30:23.648
So in August of, well, seven years ago now, I did the Teton Traverse.

00:30:24.021 --> 00:30:27.142
And I, according to the Rangers, I'm the oldest guy to have done that.

00:30:28.477 --> 00:30:34.356
Nobody has done my age has, and, and I was, it was harder in a way than I thought it would be.

00:30:34.612 --> 00:30:39.471
Well, it was very exposed and you can't rope up for some of these pitches.

00:30:39.471 --> 00:30:40.882
I, we roped up for some of it.

00:30:40.998 --> 00:30:50.107
I went with this guy that I knew who used to be a guide up there, and we did it together and it was super exciting to be able to do it.

00:30:50.607 --> 00:30:51.478
sure, sure.

00:30:51.778 --> 00:30:52.827
That's, that's impressive.

00:30:53.327 --> 00:30:56.867
You did many things right, Lee, obviously, you know, you were.

00:30:57.367 --> 00:31:00.428
You were embracing, uh, cutting edge training methods.

00:31:00.877 --> 00:31:11.656
You were quite strategic, you know, you were a planner with your climbing, any things you, think you could have done differently to make, for even better outcomes?

00:31:12.017 --> 00:31:21.106
Maybe it could be with your training, it could be with your, uh, with your diet perhaps, or, or anything else with your lifestyle that could have yet been improved upon.

00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:23.464
Over what I've already been doing.

00:31:24.160 --> 00:31:40.930
Like if you, if you were to go back, uh, let's say 20 years, uh, 25 years, tell your younger self, uh, that, Hey, why don't you start doing A, B, C or stop doing X, Y, Z, what would that have looked like?

00:31:41.430 --> 00:31:42.450
Well, okay.

00:31:42.450 --> 00:31:49.549
Like I said, I didn't really have much of a strategy up until I was about 53 or 54 years old.

00:31:49.555 --> 00:31:51.170
I just threw myself at roots.

00:31:51.670 --> 00:32:00.519
And so, yeah, I, I think what I would do differently now is, is, um, I would've trained more specifically on my wall in my house.

00:32:00.519 --> 00:32:05.910
I would've probably built a, a campus board for myself.

00:32:06.180 --> 00:32:10.009
'cause I think that that's very beneficial as well as hang boards.

00:32:10.509 --> 00:32:11.884
But, you know, back Mm-hmm.

00:32:12.384 --> 00:32:17.065
Well, even them when they were around, I didn't necessarily use them very much.

00:32:17.565 --> 00:32:22.735
Um, I also did some stupid things actually injured myself pretty badly.

00:32:23.235 --> 00:32:36.666
My finger injury from overuse, because I started, this was before hang boards, I used to hang from my fingers on door jambs with weights hanging from me, and my hurting and I thought that that was a good thing.

00:32:37.057 --> 00:32:38.977
fingers were hurting well.

00:32:39.477 --> 00:32:46.047
And then I took tons of ibuprofen on a climbing trip that was a two week climbing trip so that I could get through it.

00:32:46.052 --> 00:32:48.146
And I just figured, well, no big deal.

00:32:48.646 --> 00:32:53.146
I'll probably be sore after the climbing trip, but I'll probably be fine in a couple weeks.

00:32:53.896 --> 00:32:55.007
I was very wrong about that.

00:32:55.007 --> 00:32:55.846
I was very injured.

00:32:56.346 --> 00:33:00.751
It took me six months for my fingers to heal, and that was quite a while ago.

00:33:01.251 --> 00:33:08.382
Um, I think there's one rooted rifle that I wished I would've stuck with.

00:33:08.882 --> 00:33:19.612
I know that I it and I gave up on it, and I, I was, I wouldn't say I was close to doing it, but I was doing well, really well on it.

00:33:19.612 --> 00:33:25.041
But there was, you know, if, there's one thing that always, uh, discouraged me, it was power moves.

00:33:25.541 --> 00:33:34.132
So if I got shut down on a power move and I couldn't do it, and I couldn't figure it out, and even after I trained for it, I would kind of give up on it.

00:33:34.162 --> 00:33:39.672
I noticed that there were other people who climb, um, similar to me.

00:33:39.707 --> 00:33:43.541
Not necessarily their necessarily better or worse or anything.

00:33:44.201 --> 00:33:45.342
They just stick with it.

00:33:45.582 --> 00:33:49.362
They just figure it out continue to work on the crux.

00:33:49.842 --> 00:33:52.662
And I remember that you know who Emily Harrington is, right?

00:33:53.162 --> 00:34:00.741
So she was working on this one ment rifle, and she worked on it for quite a while, and she had worked it out really, really well.

00:34:00.741 --> 00:34:04.422
But she could never get through the Boulder problem at the bottom, and neither could I.

00:34:04.922 --> 00:34:12.062
And I had already had given up on the route a few years before and she kept working on it, training for it.

00:34:12.422 --> 00:34:15.322
She wanted to do the route and she eventually did it.

00:34:15.822 --> 00:34:18.572
And so that's one thing.

00:34:19.072 --> 00:34:26.142
Even though I have a lot of patience, I think I should have had more patience when it came to powerful roots

00:34:26.274 --> 00:34:26.614
Got it.

00:34:27.329 --> 00:34:43.121
Well, sure, yeah, you were probably still maybe in the 90th percentile when it came to patience and persistence, but, uh, there is always room for, uh, for more for working harder and being, being more, uh, more persistent.

00:34:43.500 --> 00:34:54.495
well, gonna say, so diet wise, I've always been very, um, strict about my diet, so I don't know if I would do anything different.

00:34:54.707 --> 00:35:06.136
I was about to actually, uh, ask you, uh, to kinda talk about some things, uh, ancillary to the actual climbing that have helped you or hurt you.

00:35:06.556 --> 00:35:17.596
And I wanted to ask about, uh, your diet, what's worked, what's not worked, and then also if you, uh, uh, if you supplement your diet with, uh, other things.

00:35:18.096 --> 00:35:19.326
I do and I have.

00:35:19.826 --> 00:35:30.994
So I have experimented over the years with all different type types of diets, so here's my thing about diet for one thing, one diet does not fit everybody.

00:35:31.281 --> 00:35:36.501
Everybody has different, uh, genetics, different things that work for them and work don't.

00:35:36.561 --> 00:35:41.322
So the biggest, biggest thing about diet is to figure out what works for you.

00:35:41.322 --> 00:35:45.422
I've had some people say that if they eat vegan, for example.

00:35:45.922 --> 00:35:47.931
They just feel low energy all the time.

00:35:48.431 --> 00:35:56.902
And I don't know whether that's psychological or whether it's genetic or whether it's true, you know, or, or what it is.

00:35:57.141 --> 00:36:04.431
All I know is for me, at one point I was a strict food vegan four years.

00:36:04.721 --> 00:36:05.531
Oh wow.

00:36:06.161 --> 00:36:06.581
Oh wow.

00:36:06.831 --> 00:36:07.371
That's, yeah,

00:36:07.661 --> 00:36:09.731
For those of us who dunno, could you describe

00:36:10.011 --> 00:36:14.061
the, that's the most radical diet I've ever been on is raw food.

00:36:14.067 --> 00:36:14.541
Vegan.

00:36:14.541 --> 00:36:25.481
For four years I did ate no cooked food, nothing but nuts, seeds, veggies, salads, whatever.

00:36:25.981 --> 00:36:29.581
And then I, at one point I was just a vegetarian.

00:36:29.586 --> 00:36:30.661
I didn't want to eat meat.

00:36:31.322 --> 00:36:34.322
Then I became a pescatarian and ate fish.

00:36:34.411 --> 00:36:40.188
I then, I married a woman who's very much a meat eater, and then eventually I just started eating meat.

00:36:40.688 --> 00:36:50.025
And so personal experience with diet is as, as long as you eat well, for me anyway, it doesn't make any difference.

00:36:50.469 --> 00:36:56.848
I, feel like my energy level is, fine no matter what I eat, as long as I don't eat garbage or overeat.

00:36:57.293 --> 00:37:04.195
So I also eat, I wouldn't say a hundred percent organic, but as much as I can, I eat organic as much as possible.

00:37:04.695 --> 00:37:06.706
Fruits, veggies, meat.

00:37:07.456 --> 00:37:11.055
Um, the meat that I eat is, I will not eat inorganic meat.

00:37:11.120 --> 00:37:12.195
just won't do it.

00:37:12.765 --> 00:37:16.395
Except on very rare occasions, you know, you go out to dinner somewhere at a restaurant.

00:37:16.663 --> 00:37:21.468
I just find that, diet wise, I just, I make sure I eat really well.

00:37:21.665 --> 00:37:22.775
everybody's different again.

00:37:22.775 --> 00:37:26.995
So like when I'm climbing, for example, some people like to eat a, like a lunch.

00:37:27.145 --> 00:37:28.346
They like to eat a sandwich

00:37:28.515 --> 00:37:28.805
Yeah.

00:37:29.120 --> 00:37:30.140
and eat a big lunch.

00:37:30.640 --> 00:37:36.160
And, um, people have asked me, well, we you doing all these climbing, don't you feel like you should eat?

00:37:36.730 --> 00:37:38.610
No, I eat a little bit.

00:37:38.910 --> 00:37:44.690
I'll eat a a ba a bar, or some small bowl of fruit or something like that.

00:37:45.110 --> 00:37:52.890
But feel like if I eat a big meal or any kind of normal lunch, like a sandwich or something, I can't even climb anymore.

00:37:53.390 --> 00:37:54.865
I, I can't climb hard.

00:37:55.365 --> 00:37:56.655
It's, it just bogs me.

00:37:56.990 --> 00:37:57.530
Yeah.

00:37:57.826 --> 00:38:00.045
are different, so I don't, I wouldn't say that one.

00:38:00.590 --> 00:38:00.920
Yeah.

00:38:00.920 --> 00:38:02.240
No, I think I'm the same way.

00:38:02.240 --> 00:38:10.060
Uh, I like to graze when I'm climbing and, uh, you know, it's just like you, like, like little snacks to the day.

00:38:10.451 --> 00:38:19.893
And, uh, I know that, uh, if I bring a packed lunch and even if I tell myself that I'm, I'm, I'm gonna only eat portions at a time, I don't have any self-control.

00:38:19.893 --> 00:38:32.360
So if there is a, if I bring a, you know, like burrito or a sandwich with me, I'm probably gonna scarf, scarf through the whole thing and then, uh, I'll feel like a slug for the next few hours.

00:38:32.420 --> 00:38:40.227
So I think, uh, I think a lot of us would do well to subscribe by that, uh, hey, you know, eat, healthy breakfast before you go climbing.

00:38:40.288 --> 00:38:49.017
And then, uh, you know, just eat enough to have to have sufficient, energy outputs through the climbing day.

00:38:49.017 --> 00:38:50.637
And then one can replenish,

00:38:51.065 --> 00:38:55.686
Well, one thing I do is pretty much routine that I do is.

00:38:56.365 --> 00:39:07.621
Like I told you, I don't really eat much in the morning, and eventually when I do eat, I make a smoothie, so, and I put stuff in my smoothie, so we get to the supplementation stuff.

00:39:08.098 --> 00:39:10.288
I put protein powder in my smoothie.

00:39:10.838 --> 00:39:11.259
Mm-Hmm.

00:39:11.853 --> 00:39:12.333
Okay.

00:39:12.478 --> 00:39:16.698
I'm pretty, pretty much convinced that, you know, we need to eat protein.

00:39:17.246 --> 00:39:21.446
do you take like whey or, or vegan pea protein.

00:39:21.788 --> 00:39:24.308
I've been on using pea protein for now.

00:39:24.308 --> 00:39:30.218
A couple years before that I was doing whey protein and I just decided that I like pea protein better.

00:39:30.568 --> 00:39:35.428
and my smoothies are just fruit, some yogurt.

00:39:35.818 --> 00:39:39.891
orange juice, frozen blueberries pineapple, that's it.

00:39:40.581 --> 00:39:45.192
And then I add, uh, some other powders, glutamine for recovery.

00:39:45.192 --> 00:39:47.531
I don't know how well that stuff works really.

00:39:47.771 --> 00:39:53.641
So I've done a lot of experimentation with some more serious stuff, and I didn't find that they did anything for me.

00:39:54.079 --> 00:39:56.677
when you say serious stuff, what is some of that stuff

00:39:57.244 --> 00:39:58.107
Testosterone,

00:39:58.607 --> 00:39:59.227
Oh,

00:39:59.600 --> 00:40:10.867
So now the oral, but I've actually, for a brief period of time, I was do, uh, this one, Health Professional was convincing me that I should do injectable testosterone.

00:40:11.367 --> 00:40:16.522
Why, why do you think they advised, was it like a health condition or performance goals

00:40:16.732 --> 00:40:25.515
Supposedly according inject yourself to testosterone when you get older, it keeps your, a lot of things going stronger.

00:40:26.085 --> 00:40:27.375
You libido, whatever.

00:40:28.125 --> 00:40:34.735
But the only thing that I noticed, which were two bad things and nothing good, the way, I didn't get any stronger.

00:40:35.455 --> 00:40:37.135
I was using it for a couple years.

00:40:37.635 --> 00:40:43.235
My wife told me that I got angrier, which was not pleasant for her.

00:40:43.735 --> 00:40:50.495
And the other thing that happened, which is even worse, is that, um, my PSA levels

00:40:50.995 --> 00:40:52.390
Ah, oh,

00:40:52.405 --> 00:40:52.915
Hmm.

00:40:53.415 --> 00:40:53.596
the

00:40:53.596 --> 00:40:56.015
prostate.specific antigen that stands for.

00:40:56.515 --> 00:40:58.315
Prostate specific antigen.

00:40:58.705 --> 00:41:04.855
So your PSA levels, means you, you're supposed to be typically under four level of four.

00:41:05.096 --> 00:41:12.850
And I went up at one point to a level of nine and, and, the, uh, I had to go to a urologist.

00:41:13.540 --> 00:41:23.560
And urologist was, was telling me that, um, I can't remember what he told me I needed to do, but at the time I was thinking, well, maybe it's the testosterone.

00:41:24.060 --> 00:41:32.800
So I stopped doing the testosterone and this has already been like a number of years ago and my PSA levels dropped all the way back down to normal.

00:41:32.898 --> 00:41:33.438
Oh wow.

00:41:33.438 --> 00:41:38.042
So the testosterone, uh, contributed to the, uh, PSA level rise.

00:41:38.582 --> 00:41:43.822
Yeah, I also at one point tried some HGH human growth hormone.

00:41:43.922 --> 00:41:45.144
Oh, Yeah.

00:41:45.361 --> 00:41:49.841
didn't know that was, uh, isn't that like a band, uh, banned substance

00:41:50.221 --> 00:41:58.621
Well, it's banned for, uh, for competition athletes, but you get a prescription for it, probably from somebody.

00:41:59.236 --> 00:41:59.356
Hmm.

00:41:59.856 --> 00:42:04.346
also some people smuggle it in from South America or whatever.

00:42:04.346 --> 00:42:12.563
I don't know where they get it, but, but they told me that, the amount that I was taking was not strong enough to really do anything.

00:42:12.659 --> 00:42:14.819
And, um, it's very expensive.

00:42:15.359 --> 00:42:18.299
So injectable testosterone is not that expensive.

00:42:18.759 --> 00:42:20.289
HGH is very expensive.

00:42:20.289 --> 00:42:21.549
So anyway, I tried that.

00:42:21.699 --> 00:42:31.269
The other thing I've tried that a lot of people use, and again, I don't find that it does anything for me, matter of fact, it has a negative effect, but some people swear by is creatine.

00:42:31.703 --> 00:42:32.123
okay.

00:42:32.623 --> 00:42:36.553
And so I tried that and I find it had a negative effect.

00:42:36.853 --> 00:42:43.893
So a lot of these performance enhancing drugs, I don't find they do much of anything.

00:42:44.393 --> 00:42:45.635
So I just stopped taking,

00:42:45.976 --> 00:42:49.547
create and, uh, seems to be widely embraced these days.

00:42:49.996 --> 00:42:52.156
Actually, I take Creatin sometimes.

00:42:52.606 --> 00:42:55.012
I used to lift, it's been a long time.

00:42:55.012 --> 00:43:09.882
Then I used to take more creatin and now I take Creatin now, and I do know that I get slightly more, uh, ripped when I take Creatin, but then I stopped taking it and I just, yeah, I think all of that water weight, uh, just kind of drains back down.

00:43:10.302 --> 00:43:13.782
So I, I, I can't really say if it has performance, uh, with climbing

00:43:14.224 --> 00:43:20.824
Yeah, see, I, I can't really say any of that stuff that I've taken over the years and helps my performance.

00:43:20.824 --> 00:43:24.894
The only thing I can say that really helps is when I keep my weight down.

00:43:25.394 --> 00:43:31.539
I've never had much of a weight problem, but I do now because after the screwed up my appetite and I started eating.

00:43:31.539 --> 00:43:36.269
Like I, I'm not doing it now, but I was just eating all kinds of stuff.

00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:38.179
That overdoing it.

00:43:38.419 --> 00:43:41.199
There was good food, but just overdoing it.

00:43:41.424 --> 00:43:43.044
probably put on about 10 pounds.

00:43:43.644 --> 00:43:52.364
And anyway, I have found that over the years, that when I lose weight, even, even three or four pounds, I can feel the difference in my climbing.

00:43:52.864 --> 00:43:53.464
sure.

00:43:53.524 --> 00:43:56.524
Yeah, that's four pounds less that you have to carry up with you.

00:43:57.024 --> 00:43:57.954
That makes a difference.

00:43:58.468 --> 00:44:10.261
Moving on Lee, You know, you have dedicated, you know, the last several decades to climbing and then also training and, uh, fine tuning your performance.

00:44:10.321 --> 00:44:13.981
you also maybe move to a place which allows you to climb very consistently.

00:44:14.168 --> 00:44:17.744
that kind of dedication, you know, doesn't come without sacrifice.

00:44:18.004 --> 00:44:24.141
Anything That comes to mind where, uh, you know, you've made sacrifices to allow you to, uh, pursue your goals.

00:44:24.328 --> 00:44:40.987
I think that about 10 or 15 years ago, and before that, I didn't put my, Energy into, uh, fostering or, growing my personal relationships with some of my relatives, some of my friends, cetera.

00:44:41.497 --> 00:44:53.146
But then about 10, 15 years ago or so, I changed, I was more interested in, spending more time with family, with friends some other pursuits too.

00:44:53.646 --> 00:45:02.047
Yes, spending time with, uh, family and with close relations can be enormously satisfying.

00:45:02.779 --> 00:45:07.369
I believe, uh, you are, talented, uh, pianist.

00:45:07.369 --> 00:45:07.399
I.

00:45:07.536 --> 00:45:10.301
Is that one of those things that, uh, you've gotten back into?

00:45:10.701 --> 00:45:12.741
Yeah, I, I, I play a lot of piano.

00:45:12.746 --> 00:45:15.351
I have a grand piano in my home.

00:45:15.851 --> 00:45:17.771
I practice religiously.

00:45:18.236 --> 00:45:21.206
So again, I approach the piano like I do climbing.

00:45:21.486 --> 00:45:27.596
I'm pretty goal oriented, probably why I, I'm somewhat successful in what I, in the things that I pursue.

00:45:28.090 --> 00:45:30.670
I just apply myself however way I can.

00:45:30.670 --> 00:45:36.463
I have a piano instructor So when I try, and again, as usual, people have asked me this.

00:45:36.463 --> 00:45:47.033
I have a piano group of friends that I go, that I hang out with, and one of them recently asked me, like, Lee, why do you always pick these really ridiculously hard pieces?

00:45:47.533 --> 00:45:50.078
I go, well, I, I guess'cause I'm goal oriented.

00:45:50.078 --> 00:45:54.983
I mean, I, I, I say, why can't I play like, the professionals I have compromised hands.

00:45:55.343 --> 00:45:57.743
I've got arthritis in my fingers.

00:45:58.163 --> 00:46:03.384
I've got, um, a condition, which I'm thinking about right now because of my back surgery.

00:46:03.388 --> 00:46:16.809
I don't wanna deal with it, but I have, uh, what a condition called dupuytren in my hands, which cause my fingers, one of my fingers to curl in, which is not very good for playing piano, but I work around it.

00:46:17.409 --> 00:46:17.889
sure.

00:46:18.136 --> 00:46:38.728
yeah, I like the challenge of picking up, playing really hard pieces I got really bad, uh, inside te elbow tendonitis for a while and everybody giving me all these methods for trying to get rid of using rubber bands and using these various, physical therapy type things and nothing really worked.

00:46:39.228 --> 00:46:43.388
And then I got a grand piano and I noticed after playing for about a month,

00:46:43.888 --> 00:46:44.308
Mm-Hmm.

00:46:44.463 --> 00:46:45.573
tendonitis went away.

00:46:46.210 --> 00:46:48.570
And I like, wait, how did that happen?

00:46:48.832 --> 00:46:54.022
you think about it, a piano, you're doing antagonistic movements all the time.

00:46:54.022 --> 00:46:57.012
You're picking up your fingers then you play piano.

00:46:57.012 --> 00:46:58.362
And I got, was really into it.

00:46:58.367 --> 00:47:03.872
I practiced for an hour to two hours a day, and then I noticed after a month that my old baton just went away.

00:47:04.372 --> 00:47:06.500
And ever since, never came back.

00:47:07.059 --> 00:47:07.659
That's crazy.

00:47:07.869 --> 00:47:09.266
let's say very, very cutting edge.

00:47:09.549 --> 00:47:12.559
left field, uh, finger rehab exercise.

00:47:13.422 --> 00:47:19.712
Lee, in the last, uh, several years, has there been any kind of new belief or behavior that has, uh.

00:47:20.282 --> 00:47:22.232
Or habit that has improved your life?

00:47:22.292 --> 00:47:24.167
Anything outside of what we've talked about already?

00:47:24.815 --> 00:47:32.725
I can't say that I've mastered it or anything, but I think I'm learning is the, uh, ideology of acceptance.

00:47:32.755 --> 00:47:34.405
I have to accept certain things.

00:47:34.920 --> 00:47:39.485
part of me, of course, as we discussed, is that age is just a number.

00:47:39.545 --> 00:47:46.956
Um, you never know how well you can do if you don't really apply yourself, but sometimes you just have to accept.

00:47:47.586 --> 00:47:53.916
I have to accept that at this point in my climbing career, for example, I'm never gonna climb a five 14 again.

00:47:54.500 --> 00:47:57.170
Now, I wouldn't rule it out, but I would say it's, it's ruled out.

00:47:57.615 --> 00:48:06.985
I have to accept certain things, there's a fine line between acceptance where you are, but it's the same time non-acceptance.

00:48:07.195 --> 00:48:08.437
I don't know if that makes any sense.

00:48:08.598 --> 00:48:09.288
No, I get it.

00:48:09.288 --> 00:48:13.428
It's, it's, uh, it's acceptance, but you are not resigned to it.

00:48:13.818 --> 00:48:17.298
you will accept the outcome, but you will keep fighting against it.

00:48:17.683 --> 00:48:18.103
right.

00:48:18.163 --> 00:48:25.500
But it's, at some point you can't fight to the point where you're gonna hurt yourself either mentally or physically.

00:48:25.934 --> 00:48:26.954
I've been working on that.

00:48:27.454 --> 00:48:36.558
But also the thing that I'd say that I've done, now that I think about it, Up until, I would say maybe like, you're probably right in the last seven years, eight years, something like that.

00:48:36.648 --> 00:48:41.302
Maybe 10 I focus more on, on flexibility physical therapy.

00:48:41.302 --> 00:48:44.388
I mean, I used to just like, don't mean to stretch that much.

00:48:44.388 --> 00:48:46.481
I, I'm fine no, I'm not fine.

00:48:46.818 --> 00:48:48.259
flexibility's important.

00:48:48.259 --> 00:48:59.394
I work with a physical trainer, not just physical therapy, but I have a, a woman here who has a, who's a dear friend of mine and she has an athletic training facility.

00:48:59.724 --> 00:49:01.644
And over the years I've been working with her.

00:49:01.654 --> 00:49:03.210
She's a physical trainer.

00:49:03.601 --> 00:49:16.853
I've realized that, a lot of people that get older realize that they're losing some flexibility or maybe they need to put more energy into their, uh, ability to, bend, to move, to move more efficiently,

00:49:17.597 --> 00:49:32.621
I am doing that now, like mobility training and all the physio and honestly, uh, It came non-optional, where, simple movements, uh, which one took for granted, you know, even 10 years ago in my mid thirties, early thirties, you know, were not that simple anymore.

00:49:32.751 --> 00:49:37.366
I think all of us should be doing mobility work, and the sooner we do it, the better.

00:49:37.649 --> 00:49:45.894
And seeking out specialists who actually can, analyze our movements, our anatomy and prescribe, a plan to, uh, work on our weakest links.

00:49:46.471 --> 00:49:46.860
Badass.

00:49:47.381 --> 00:49:49.151
never too late to, uh, start mobility.

00:49:49.151 --> 00:50:00.321
I, I, I keep telling my mom that my mom is, uh, a couple of years shy of you and, uh, I'm like, mom, you know, if you don't do these mobility things now, they're gonna be, limiting your lifestyle very soon.

00:50:00.521 --> 00:50:10.375
you know, whether it's, climbing goals or it's just simple lifestyle goals, I think mobility and, and, uh, physiotherapy, uh, is so critical to, uh, maintaining a quality of life.

00:50:10.895 --> 00:50:11.945
we are nearing the end of a time.

00:50:11.945 --> 00:50:13.205
Just some fun questions.

00:50:13.726 --> 00:50:18.881
what's the best gift that you have received The best gift that you have, you have given

00:50:19.381 --> 00:50:26.982
I don't know if it's a gift, but I think the best gift I've received is, uh, my spouse, my wife, for many, many years.

00:50:26.982 --> 00:50:31.163
I felt like I never really met a woman who I really wanted to spend that much time with.

00:50:31.163 --> 00:50:31.223
I.

00:50:31.680 --> 00:50:34.683
And when I met her it just clicked.

00:50:35.006 --> 00:50:38.126
And I think that was a, that's a gift from, from the world.

00:50:38.547 --> 00:50:44.562
The best gift I've ever given, I think was, at least most people have told me that.

00:50:44.877 --> 00:50:50.642
my mom is no longer with us, but taking care of my mom when she needed me.

00:50:50.870 --> 00:50:55.416
I moved her up here with me I built an add-on apartment for her on my house.

00:50:55.528 --> 00:50:57.568
that was my gift to her to live with me.

00:50:57.851 --> 00:50:59.926
I took care of her for a year and a half.

00:51:00.472 --> 00:51:01.342
life-changing gift.

00:51:01.842 --> 00:51:05.420
Are you like a book reader watch, TV or, uh.

00:51:05.490 --> 00:51:08.580
Things on the, uh, internet, if you read books, uh, curious.

00:51:08.580 --> 00:51:11.460
Any, any good book that you have read recently or are reading

00:51:11.915 --> 00:51:18.065
up until about, oh, I don't know, probably 10 years ago or maybe 15, I didn't read hardly any books or anything.

00:51:18.509 --> 00:51:33.798
I was addicted to doing crossword puzzles and I would read climbing magazine, rocking Ice Magazine, more or less keep up with politics, And then starting at about 15 years ago, I started reading I've been an avid reader ever since.

00:51:34.018 --> 00:51:36.328
And so I read, read a lot of books.

00:51:36.828 --> 00:51:37.108
Okay.

00:51:37.653 --> 00:51:40.623
any good book you would recommend, uh, to the listeners?

00:51:40.917 --> 00:51:48.157
I'm attracted to nonfiction and political books or other that are real.

00:51:48.247 --> 00:51:53.848
I don't, I don't like fiction particularly, unless it's historical novels or something like that.

00:51:54.348 --> 00:52:04.578
So one very interesting book that I just read, which is a brand new book pretty much that came out, was a book called Oath and Honor by Liz Cheney.

00:52:05.107 --> 00:52:07.342
Oh, oh, I heard about that book Yes.

00:52:07.372 --> 00:52:08.152
Liz Cheney's

00:52:08.409 --> 00:52:12.177
And she was right there in the insurrection on January 6th.

00:52:12.677 --> 00:52:13.812
and what she has to say.

00:52:13.812 --> 00:52:15.282
It was a, it's a remarkable book.

00:52:15.282 --> 00:52:20.172
So I, if you're into that sort of thing, I would highly recommend that book.

00:52:20.672 --> 00:52:28.251
The other book that I read recently that was, recommended to me, which has nothing to do with politics, and actually it was Michael Kennedy.

00:52:28.251 --> 00:52:29.481
You know who Michael Kennedy is.

00:52:29.869 --> 00:52:30.589
I think so.

00:52:31.089 --> 00:52:33.291
So anyway, Michael lives here.

00:52:33.738 --> 00:52:37.240
used to own, climbing magazine years ago.

00:52:37.240 --> 00:52:40.033
Anyway, he lives here he's a good friend of mine.

00:52:40.153 --> 00:52:43.603
he recommended the book that Katie Brown wrote.

00:52:44.065 --> 00:52:53.685
Yeah, I didn't read the book, but I remember hearing Katie Brown It talks about her like Christian upbringing and, uh, all those things.

00:52:54.288 --> 00:53:09.337
the big, thing she talks about is the relationship she had with her mother and climbing and how badly she felt about herself and how conflicted she was during her upbringing, which she felt was very unhealthy.

00:53:10.027 --> 00:53:15.477
And what's interesting about the book is she really, really bears her soul in this book.

00:53:15.807 --> 00:53:26.897
And she's very, I have met her once and other people that have have met her said the same thing, that she's very shy, she doesn't feel comfortable talking much about a life in public.

00:53:27.392 --> 00:53:33.532
Yet she felt extremely comfortable talking about herself in depth book.

00:53:34.032 --> 00:53:38.922
And so I, I read that about a month ago, and that was a very, very interesting book.

00:53:39.293 --> 00:53:44.948
I think when I first, uh, heard, heard about that book, made a mental note and, uh, thanks for the reminder.

00:53:45.513 --> 00:53:49.713
yeah, Liz Cheney's book and Katie Brown's book, uh, I mean, Katie Brown.

00:53:49.718 --> 00:54:06.778
I remember when I first went to the Red, you know, Katie Brown, uh, was famous because, uh, she had done like the youngest, uh, fa of, uh, youngest onsite of a five as a female, or the only on site, which then got downgraded, but I think, yeah, she was the only female to have onsighted at that grade.

00:54:07.293 --> 00:54:12.343
Omaha Beach is the route, actually worked on that route a little bit at the mother, Lord.

00:54:13.009 --> 00:54:13.548
Okay.

00:54:14.038 --> 00:54:27.238
Yeah, but the problem was is that the weather was not conducive and I felt like I didn't wanna spend my entire vacation trying to do this one route that was far away from where I lived.

00:54:27.642 --> 00:54:30.736
but I'm actually astounded that she unsighted that route.

00:54:31.376 --> 00:54:31.946
Yeah.

00:54:32.238 --> 00:54:33.798
And Lee, final question.

00:54:34.368 --> 00:54:44.773
If there was a gigantic billboard where could add any message that you wanted, what would you say on that message for others?

00:54:45.434 --> 00:54:45.794
Okay.

00:54:45.794 --> 00:54:49.084
Well this is getting to be a little bit political, if that's okay.

00:54:49.724 --> 00:54:50.184
Go ahead.

00:54:50.644 --> 00:54:51.024
Go ahead.

00:54:51.044 --> 00:54:51.939
Say whatever you want.

00:54:52.439 --> 00:54:54.919
Um, our home is in danger.

00:54:55.419 --> 00:54:57.429
Home is in Okay.

00:54:57.929 --> 00:54:58.819
The earth is in danger.

00:54:59.109 --> 00:55:01.004
It is actually, the earth is not in danger.

00:55:01.004 --> 00:55:05.713
We're in danger It's a book about why civilizations fail.

00:55:05.983 --> 00:55:06.723
Okay.

00:55:06.843 --> 00:55:09.483
It's a, I, I think I might have read that book.

00:55:09.513 --> 00:55:13.973
It's a, it's a, it's a bit of a heavy It's a long book.

00:55:14.438 --> 00:55:15.038
that's right.

00:55:15.163 --> 00:55:15.553
Yeah.

00:55:15.558 --> 00:55:17.113
I read that a decade ago

00:55:17.460 --> 00:55:18.660
collapse, I think.

00:55:18.930 --> 00:55:19.680
Is that the name of the book?

00:55:19.680 --> 00:55:20.520
I think it's collapse.

00:55:21.020 --> 00:55:25.960
So it's all about how cultures collapse and why they collapse.

00:55:26.596 --> 00:55:36.640
the book outlines five reasons and almost all cultures, if you violate like three of those reasons or more you will not prevail.

00:55:37.205 --> 00:55:50.203
However, I would say the message on the billboard would have to be something to the effect of we need to support leaders, we need to support things and changing our lives however we can do.

00:55:50.938 --> 00:55:56.084
That will accept the science of global climate change.

00:55:56.431 --> 00:55:56.721
Sure.

00:55:57.443 --> 00:55:59.693
Lee, it's been a fantastic conversation.

00:55:59.993 --> 00:56:02.033
I know the weekend is calling.

00:56:02.123 --> 00:56:04.463
I don't want to keep you, uh, any longer.

00:56:04.913 --> 00:56:07.793
But, uh, thanks so much for, uh, coming on today.

00:56:07.793 --> 00:56:11.243
And, uh, you know, you inspire us, you inspire me.

00:56:11.833 --> 00:56:13.561
appreciate it Thank you.

00:56:15.313 --> 00:56:31.073
As we wrap up this awe inspiring episode with Lee, I can't predict if he will conquer another 514, but one thing's for sure, he'll keep setting those sky high goals and crafting plans with grit and determination.

00:56:31.573 --> 00:56:34.693
Age or injuries, these are just numbers to Lee.

00:56:35.193 --> 00:56:45.123
He stays endlessly curious, going climbing with the gusto of a teenager, all while juggling other hobbies that feed his thirst for progress.

00:56:45.623 --> 00:56:48.923
Reflecting on Lee's journey, I see a mirror image of myself.

00:56:49.423 --> 00:56:58.353
Beyond the sheer thrill of pushing my limits and climbing, there is a yearning for that elusive state of flow and constant growth.

00:56:58.853 --> 00:57:10.603
I often don't like to try hard, but when I find that perfect activity and give it my best, the rewards are nothing short of astonishing and deeply satisfying.

00:57:11.103 --> 00:57:12.973
Huge thanks for tuning in, friends.

00:57:13.683 --> 00:57:15.973
Share the ageless vibes with a buddy.

00:57:16.573 --> 00:57:23.353
And until our next adventure together, stay ageless, stay adventurous.