#85 No Finish Line in Sight: On Pain, Joy, and the Lifelong Pursuit of What Matters Most - Best of Q2, 2025

Best of Q2 - 2025
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Kush: Friends, welcome back to Ageless Athlete. I have not, provided my whereabouts on the podcast for a while now, but I am here in the middle of the Rockies, in Western us, in the state of Wyoming, and I am in this small town called 10 Sleep and enjoying the. Excellent rock climbing and just being here in the middle of nature.

It has been beautiful indeed. It's been a great summer, and today's episode is something a little different every few months. I like to pause and reflect on the conversations that left a mark. The ones [00:01:00] that stayed with me long after I said goodbye and stopped the recorder. Uh, this is one of those moments.

What you are about to hear is a curated selection from some of our most meaningful interviews this past quarter. These clips aren't just impressive achievements or highlight reels. They are stories that touch on something deeper, what it means to grow older in your body to wrestle. With identity to find joy in reinvention or to keep showing up when no one is watching.

If one of these moments moves you, I hope you will go back and listen to the full episode because each one of these guests. Brought something powerful, personal, and [00:02:00] uniquely their own. And together they remind us that aging, pushing limits, overcoming barriers isn't just about slowing down. It's about deepening into who we are.

Jerry: Sarah Thomas is known for doing what No one else on Earth has done, like swimming four consecutive crossings of the English channel. Yes. Crossing the English channel nonstop four times and all after surviving cancer. What moved me most though in this conversation wasn't just the scale of her swims, it was the way she talks about potential, not in the abstract, motivational poster way, but as a quiet personal compass.

In this clip, [00:03:00] Sarah shares a story from a childhood that shaped how she views effort, fulfillment, and knowing deep down that you haven't yet hit your limit. It's about chasing your own edge, not somebody else's.

Sarah: let me add this. I, you know, I didn't tell this earlier, but we were talking about my childhood. so I was always like a super average pool swimmer, right?

Like, just, I worked really hard. I loved the water, but I was average. Um, and I remember, I don't know, it was probably 11 or 12. Um, and my overhearing like my mom talking to one of my swim coaches, um, and her, and he was telling her like, yeah, I have a good work ethic. Um, and if I worked hard, I had a lot of potential to achieve.

I. Almost whatever I wanted. Um, and I remember going home and asking my mom like, what does potential mean? And she said, well, that [00:04:00] means, you know, you can do so many things if you put in the work to do it. And so I think even from a young age, I just had this desire to like fulfill my potential, right?

And so I, I knew even though I was an average pool swimmer, like I worked hard 'cause it was an effort to just like make sure I was the best that I could be. Maybe it wasn't like better than you, it wasn't better than, you know, anyone else, but it was better than me. So I think I just grew up with this feeling of like, whatever my best looks like, that's what I need to be achieving.

And so as I'm like starting to do these longer swims, you know, when I did the English Channel for the first time in 2012, I swam across, I'm standing in France and it's like this beautiful sunset. This like super special moment. And I will never forget, I'm standing on this beach in France and I'm looking back in England and I'm thinking like, I can do more.

There's more left in me. And so I think [00:05:00] this chase for longer swims is just trying to find out like, where's my limit? Um, what does more look like for me? And I think when you look at it that way of like, man, I did this 80 mile swim. No one else has ever swam that far before, but like I haven't maxed out my potential yet.

and so I think that's where like you keep wanting to find that next step. You know, I've never been done. I will say I was done after my a hundred mile swim, right? Like that was a limit, you know? And I don't necessarily know that I need to push past a hundred miles. I'm happy with that. That took all that, I had everything in me to finish that swim.

So that gives you like, just a sense of peace. And so now it's like I can just do whatever I want. I know that I've pushed, I've met my potential. There's so many fun swims out there, what else can I potentially achieve? And that's where something like the four-way English channel comes into play, it's like, this is a really cool swim that's within my wheelhouse, [00:06:00] that's within my potential.

and I always tell people like, if you can do something, you should, because there's no limit to what we can achieve other than like what we set our minds on. and I do feel like I maybe more so than other people, don't put a limit on what I believe I can achieve in the water. Um, and that just opens so much, so much for you when your mind is open to like.

I can do that. Like that's not a limit. You know, I've done several swims over these years where people were like, that's an impossible swim. in 2013, my friend Craig and I swam down a back across Lake Tahoe. people had tried that swim and nearly died trying to do that swim. They said it was impossible.

Like people were like, there's no way you can do a double leg Tahoe. And I was like, what's so hard about that? Like it's, yeah, it's colder water, but it's not super cold. It's altitude similar to Denver. Like I can go do that. Um, and so I think I've just got all of these swims where I've practiced turning, um, I've practiced [00:07:00] doing things that people had said were impossible.

So by the time you get to the English channel, you can push away all that noise. You know, people telling me like, it's impossible. You're a cancer survivor. Like, who do you think you are? You know, you've only swung the English channel one time. Like you can't do this. You know, like. You can just push all that out.

Like they don't matter. You know what matters is like, I know what I've achieved, I know what I believe and I know what I can dream of. 

Kush: I think this is such a, uh, core human, gift in a way, which is to have the curiosity to find what our limits are to those of us who are not. Swimmers, maybe not even athletes. How can those people find what their limits are and, and how [00:08:00] can that really, uh, I don't know, enhance the quality of their life?

Sarah: I do. I, I talk to people about this, right? Because it doesn't have to be swimming. It can be anything. You know, for some people, like their jobs are their passion, um, teachers, you know, like, think about the lives that you're impacting as a teacher. Um, maybe it's just like knitting, you know, like I just think that as a human, we all have something within us that we love that brings us joy, right?

And, um, maybe your goal isn't to like max out your potential, but I do think. That you should be finding your joy in whatever form that looks like that's meaningful to you. And I can't tell you what that is. I can't discover that for you. Right. I didn't discover my like, true passion and joy. I was 25. Um, and I would still say I'm still [00:09:00] still searching for some of it.

You know what I mean? But I think we all have something in us that brings us joy and you shouldn't ignore it. I think we, some of us, we get so busy in like work and raising kids or just like the day to day, we forget to focus on the thing that brings us joy. And I think all of us would be better if we took an hour a day, you know, or 30 minutes a day.

put that passion into the thing that brings us joy. and so I don't think you have to like break world records or, Swim yourself until you can't think anymore. You know, as long as you're finding those moments where you can, um, to focus on yourself and do the things that bring you like true joy and true happiness.

Um, I think we'd all be better off if we did a little bit more of that. I, 

Kush: what about people, Sarah [00:10:00] who, who actually have not discovered that passion? Mm-hmm. You know, we are going through, I don't know, some kind of mental health crisis in this country and in this world. And I think maybe a part of that is because people, people don't know where to turn to, And yeah. Uh, it is great if one already has that in some way and one can maybe just, um, you know, dig away the dirt and get back to pursuing that. I. That thing that they have. But if you don't have that, and I, I think you also, you coach people and you also I think speak at events and I'm, I'm just curious, uh, what would you tell people on how to find that, that dream?

Sure. Where should they start with? Yeah, 

Sarah: and it's hard. Um, I have a pretty good amount of like mental [00:11:00] health struggles within my family. So I feel like that question like really strikes close to home for me because, you know, I have people that I love very much who have a hard time finding that joy. and knowing, you know, knowing how to even start, um, because there is despair and, and sadness and, you know, I.

Every emotion that kind of gets in your way of finding that. Um, and I'll say number one, you, you know, it always helps if you have like an an actual real mental health professional, um, by your side, um, because they'll probably help you more than I can. But, you know, I think part of it is just giving yourself the room and the, the peace and the space to just try right it.

You don't have to, you know, be swimming the English channel four times on day one. Right. Day one is [00:12:00] just like walking into the swimming pool and swimming one length and it no matter where you're at, you know, you can always. Swim the equivalent of one length of the pool. Right? so if that's just, you know, picking up a pencil and drawing a sketch, if that's going outside and walking around the block or, you know, whatever it is that gets you moving forward to step number one, and then feeling like you can accomplish step number one, and then, then that gives you the freedom and ability to go to step number two and then maybe three or four and just wherever that takes you.

But I know sometimes the hardest part is just finding step one, and sometimes you have to repeat step one a million times. But my, my belief is that there's always, there's always something, right? There's something within each of us that it makes us individuals, it makes us unique. Um, and that can bring us, bring us joy.

and I can't find it for you, but hopefully [00:13:00] you have the. Just the, the mental strength and the ability to start with step one. Um, because that's where, that's where it all starts, is with just that first step of beginning.

Kush: Bob Becker started running in his fifties. Now at age 80. He's still showing up to some of the hardest ultra marathons in the world. In this moment, Bob talks about what happened when he ran race and did not make the cutoff. It is easy to celebrate the wins. But Bob's lesson is about something deeper.

How we show up when the outcome doesn't go our way, how we make peace with that effort, how we walk away with our head held high. It's about resilience, yes, but [00:14:00] also grace. And in a culture that's obsessed with winning this. Clip reminds us that there is power in showing up. There is another kind of strength

I.

I've also heard this being said that. Pain is a given in ultra running and, uh, but, but suffering is a choice. So, uh, do you believe that? And then, um, yeah. How do you, Bob, how do you personally separate, um, Pain from suffering when you are a hundred miles deep into a race and then everything hurts.

Bob: Well, unfortunately I've had my share of DNFs did [00:15:00] not finish races as well. Marathon Dassault being the first one because they wouldn't let me with a broken femur. and, uh, it's a, it's always humbling. But you also learn a lot from it, which is that, um, you know, it's, uh, I like to say, and it's not original, I suppose, but the pain, unless it's a real, uh, life threatening kind of a thing or permanent injury kind of a thing, pain is temporary, and the bragging rights when you finish are forever, you know, you chose to be out there, uh, and the idea, the, the, the sense of accomplishment when crossing the finish line for me is is pretty overwhelming.

And so when I'm in that pain cave and really hurting and don't want to continue, and asking myself, what the hell am I doing out here? I always try to take a moment and offset that with the notion that I chose to be here. And at the point at which I cross that finish line, it [00:16:00] may take me a little while to recover, but I will recover.

And I'll be awfully glad that I finished and I didn't stop, didn't have that DNF because whenever I have one, there was always deeper grit, no matter what the reason is. I had a unfortunate I had one time opportunity to run Western States and got to, uh, get out there about a truckie at about, I don't know, five days, four or five days before the race to get acclimated, get organized, and I immediately developed.

Uh, a very bad cold and a lung infection. So here's my one and only opportunity having been awarded a special entry to run Western. And basically I couldn't do it. Uh, I went to the start line, but I just missed the cutoff, the first cutoff at 30 miles. And I was done and absolutely the most devastating race that I've ever had.

and yet it wasn't anything I could really do about [00:17:00] it, you know. But the point is, when you don't finish a race, uh, it's very, very frustrating, and, uh, you want to absolutely minimize that feeling whenever you can. So, if your blistered feet, if your feet are blistered, or whatever, aches and pains, Um, you, you kind of work through them and, you know, it's mind over matter.

I, uh, you may know of a Canadian ultra runner, an adventurer whose name is Ray Zahab. And I love something that Ray said a number of years ago. He said, ultra running is 90 percent mental and the rest is in your head. I just love that idea because obviously you have to train, but it is a mental game.

There's no question about it. And, uh, I try to keep that in mind.

Kush: For sure. And actually Ray has been on the podcast and I encourage people to listen to Ray's episode as well. He shared [00:18:00] some, yeah, incredible words of wisdom, including, I think he talked about this one as well. You talked about this, um, for sure. You know, DNFs are unfortunate because there's so much preparation that has gone in and some of these opportunities are rare, like being invited and, uh, making time to come to California, for example, for the Western states.

again, curious, Bob, you know, talk to us maybe about like, maybe one of the worst moments. Thanks. Thanks. That you've had to push through because like running is an incredible activity. A lot of us will go running and then we will often stop because you're like, okay, you know what? We are tired now. This is hurting. Being able to complete an ultra run requires one to push through sometimes really deep moments. So. Yeah, is there like a particular [00:19:00] moment that comes to mind when things were incredibly brutal, but you kept going?

Bob: Yeah, I suppose the best example was three years ago at Badwater. 2022. Um, and I was trying to set the record as the oldest finisher, uh, at 77 at the time. And I was doing well. I was, I was on track. My, my time was good, but the further down the course I got, I think probably, probably started about a hundred after about a hundred miles.

So I had another 35 miles to go, including a 13 mile climb up Mount Whitney to the finish line. And, um, my back started giving out. And I started leaning, uh, not to the side, but leaning forward. And I just couldn't straighten up. It was really bothering me a lot. And by the time I got into Lone Pine, I was almost bent in half.

I mean, my body, my, [00:20:00] I looked like a, like an L shape or something. Um, And it wasn't so much pain as it was just the inability to stand up straight and to move in a normal way. And it was putting pressure on my legs and it was, uh, not good. Well, I still had a lot of time in theory to finish the race. So I started up the mountain and by the time I got within about a mile of the finish line, not only had my back seized up and was totally worthless, but my legs began to seize up as well.

Um, and I literally had to had to use my hands to help my help my legs one step at a time. I'd go 12 or 15 steps and I had to stop and take a break and try to straighten up a little bit and then do it again. And as I approached the finish line. uh, even closer. Uh, that just wasn't working. So it turned out [00:21:00] that the race medical director was walking alongside me, being sure that I wasn't causing that I was okay.

First of all, I was lucid. Secondly, that I wasn't going to have permanent damage. And I wasn't. I was I was fine. It was totally lucid. It was just my back. Uh, and at one point I said to her, you know, if I could change up the muscle movement a little, maybe maybe that would help. I said, is there any reason why I couldn't get out on all fours and bear crawl a little bit?

And she thought about it and said, well, the rule is you have to get to the finish line under your own power, so, you know, why not? So I did. I did some bear crawling up that mountain for a while and stood up and walked and then a little bear crawled again. Um, and I wound up finishing, but I wound up finishing 17 minutes over the 48 hour cutoff.

That was one of the most difficult and frustrating experiences of my life. But, I wasn't going to not [00:22:00] finish that day, and I didn't care what was involved. And, uh, I just was bound and determined to make it. And, um, there were a lot of people up there urging me on and helping me, encouraging me to do what I could to finish.

And, uh, and I suppose that's the best example I can give you of a Kind of a tough day.

Jerry: Before triathlons became sleek and serious, they were scrappy, chaotic, and full of heart. Bob Babbitt was there at the beginning. In this clip, he tells one of his favorite stories from the early days of Iron Man back when athletes were fueling on Big Macs and taping bananas to the bikes. Yes, it is hilarious, but it is also this reminder of how far.

Passion and play can take you even [00:23:00] when nothing is figured out yet.

Kush: You were there in 1980 racing. Iron Man before most people even knew what a triathlon was. So take us back. What was it like stepping into an event so raw, um, maybe experimental where no one really knew what it was humanly possible to finish that?

Bob: Well, we, uh, it's funny at the time in 70, 1978, I moved here. to San Diego from Chicago, and then Ned Overen, who went on to become world mountain bike champion, but mountain bikes hadn't been invented back then. Uh, the two of us met rock climbing down in [00:24:00] Mexico and we became roommates, and then we read in 1979 in an article in Sports Illustrated, uh, about this thing called the Ironman.

And in 78, 15 people had started it and 12 finished and the same in 79. So it's not like it was catching on. Uh, but the fascinating part was.

We read the article in 79, again, it was like an 8 to 10 page article in Sports Illustrated, which was sort of the Bible for all of us back then. And it's like, why would there be such a long article on such a teeny event? 15 idiots. And it's a 2. 4 mile swim and a little history. Is there had been a, um, article earlier in 77 and Sports Illustrated that said that the world's best endurance athlete was, um, Eddie Merckx, who had won the one to [00:25:00] tour France five times.

And, so there was a event on the island of Oahu called the perimeter relay. And John Collins, uh, who had learned about the sport of triathlon when he lived in Coronado with his family. The early triathlons were held at Fiesta Island starting in 74 in San Diego. He and his family had done these events.

So they just did this run around the island of Oahu, a relay run, and the article on Eddie Merckx had come out, and all of them started arguing about, well, wait a second. Why is a cyclist the greatest endurance athlete? We're runners. Why can't it be us? And we all, and if you're living on an island, you're sort of doing swimming, you're doing cycling, you're doing running as a, as a group.

And so after this argument was going on for a while, John Collins gets up and goes, listen, we're going to find out once and for all who the best endurance athlete, we're going to take the Waikiki rough water swim [00:26:00] 2. 4 miles. The around a Wahoo bike ride, 112 miles. And the Honolulu Marathon, which is 26. 2 miles, we'll put all three of them together and we'll call the winner the Ironman.

And then he promptly sat down and forgot about it. And then, since he was working in the Navy over there, uh, uh, one of the guys there kept saying, Sir, when are we going to do that iron thing, sir? So, in, uh, in February of 1978, He put on the first ever Ironman triathlon and in 79 it happened again And we read the article and the guy who won it in 79 Was a guy named tom warren who lived here in san diego and he put on an event called the tug swim run swim Ned and I had done and it was it was one of those classic events.

It was a half mile swim around This crystal pier in San Diego, a five mile run on the beach, and he swam around the pier again and but you [00:27:00] didn't stop at the finish line. Tom Warren owned a thing called Tug's Tavern. So the idea was you came across the finish line and ran a few more blocks to his tavern because the first 75 people got breakfast, right?

You got breakfast, runny eggs and a glass, a Tug's glass. And that's what the bragging rights were because you were standing there with your breakfast and your glass when the 76 guy got there and got nothing. So that, that was, that was a draw. Ned and I would do that event. So anyways, we called Tom Warnop and said, you know, Mr.

Warren, sir, can you tell us about this iron thing? Because it's not like you go online and find out how to do it, where to do it. How do you train? Nobody knew. So Tommy goes, Hey, yeah, Babbit, come down to my office, which is just south of crystal pier on the West side of the street. So I, I go down there with Ned and we're like, there's no buildings there.

There's a motorhome, right? There's a parking lot and there's a bike on the back of this, [00:28:00] of this motorhome And there's a paddleboard on top and there's running shoes tied around the side view mirror on the outside And, uh, Tommy's like, Babbit, welcome to my office. And he had a pay phone behind him. So he, you know, he owned a tavern.

So he would go for a swim and go for a paddle in the ocean, get a five mile run in, pay phone behind him, go call and order chips or salsa or other crap for his, for his bar, and then he'd go ride his bike up to Oceanside and back and. So he was doing this triathlon stuff, just how is his lifestyle, that's what he's doing.

So he invites us to the bar, this is 9 30 in the morning, the bar behind, uh, behind his motor home called T. D. Hayes, and Ned and I are sitting there. And again, this is our mentor. This is a guy who's going to show us how to do this thing. And he's got, he's drinking beer, 9 30 in the morning. And then he's got a magic marker.

He's got this magic marker, like, and every [00:29:00] time he takes a drink, he makes a mark on his arm. And I'm like, Mr. Warren, sir, What's the deal with the magic marker? He goes, well, I have a little bit of a drinking problem. When I get to my sleeve, I go home. We're like, Oh, okay. You are an absolute crazy person.

Then he took us to his house and he had a bike mounted in the sauna and he'd ride five hours a day in the sauna. you know, to get ready for the heat of Hawaii. So Ned and I went to a police auction and we bought bikes at a police auction. My bike was 75 bucks. The whole back end was burnt in a fire and covered that up with duct tape.

And, you know, both of us really didn't know what this thing was. I, all I knew was that I put, was going to put panniers, sleeping bag and tent on the bike because I thought you swam 2. 4, rode 56, camped out. road back the next day, and then ran the marathon. And, you know, we had no idea that you're supposed to do a whole thing in one day.

That was the silliest thing ever. In fact, when we went over there to do the [00:30:00] event, Ned's girlfriend, Pam, who, and that he ended up marrying, she lost him in the first half mile of the bike. So, when she finally caught 90, he was in the median strip drinking out of sprinklers. Uh, cause she hadn't had any aid in 90 miles, right?

Yeah, my crew gave me a big mac fries and a coke at mile 25. You had your own support crew Rip your snow cone at mile 90 Then when I came off the bike, uh, I heard this music and I saw this, you know, boombox and a bamboo mat, and I'm like, what's going on? My crew was like, how about a massage? I'm like, you know what?

I could use a massage. I had a 45 minute massage between a bike and a run. Probably the longest transition in in Ironman history. Yeah, it felt great. And they had, they had a scale set up along the bike ride and a run because they [00:31:00] came up with some science. I don't know where they came up with it. They would have you get off the bike and get weighed and, you know, and during a run, same thing.

If you lost 5 percent of your body weight, they pulled you out of the race because they thought it was dangerous. But again, nobody knew what we were doing. So, I get off the bike, and who knew nutrition back then? I had Hawaiian sweet bread and Gatorade. That was, that's what I had. My crew was giving me that.

So I get weighed as we start the run, and then I'm drinking Gatorade, and eating, eating Hawaiian sweet bread, and I get to about mile five. And you get on the scale and I could hear the guy in a walkie talkie. He's like, Hey, can you give me that again? The guy's gained five pounds. What's he doing?

So then we're running along in the last part of the run, you run up diamond head and you run down into Capilani park. And I'm running up diamond head. My crew is behind me when they're Fiat convertible lighting up the road. And I'm thinking to myself, this is the coolest [00:32:00] thing. I didn't know I could do this.

I was going to do this in two days. I'm going to finish this in one day. And I'm running up diamond head, the crews behind me. I started thinking there's going to be. Cheerleaders at the finish of all sorts of excitement. I can't wait to get there. It's gonna be awesome I come running into the park. I look up.

There's like a light bulb above me There's a chalk line on the road and I hear a voice in the darkness. It's like hey you yeah you in the race Yeah, you're done. That's it Cuz that guy sitting in a park one guy doing one arm push ups and me that was it's like But it was something about that event that I finished it and I was like, I changed my perception of me.

I knew that I now had this business card that told me I could accomplish anything. I could change my perception of myself. So I just became an evangelist for this silly sport of triathlon 

Jerry: Bill Ramsey is a philosophy professor [00:33:00] and a high level climber. He's spent decades exploring hard roots and harder questions. In this moment, he unpacks why we voluntarily choose suffering. Why people run a hundred miles climb until failure or push through discomfort on purpose. It is thoughtful, maybe a little poetic, and offers a glimpse into the inner life of someone who believes that meaning isn't found in ease, but an effort.

Kush: Let's talk about this. Idea of the paint box. Okay. Okay, perfect. Uh, apparently that term is associated with you in some way. So tell us what is that all about? Okay. 

Bill Ramsey: Okay. So, um, so I mean, I think I came up with this [00:34:00] kind of as an attitude where I think I was studying stoic philosophy a little bit maybe at the time, but it seemed like in training and like dieting, you're constantly being bombarded with, oh, here's a way you can get stronger, or here's a way you can lose weight.

And you don't actually have to, you can eat everything you want, or you don't actually have to train, just do this for five minutes and you'll have everything you need and it's, you'll get much, much stronger. And it's all crap, right? I mean, it's all bs. And so a sort of approach that I would like is, is to, no, no, no, you are gonna deal with pain.

You have pain in your life, and you should just accept that. And don't think that you can get by without accepting the amount of, of pain that's actually gonna exist in your life. However, one thing you can engage in is what I call pain reallocation. Okay? So like, say this piece of paper, let's suppose that this piece of paper, this volume represents all the pain in your life, okay?

But there's two different kinds of pain. And imagine that this volume is separated [00:35:00] by a divider. And so let's say that on this side is the kind of pain that's associated with, um, hard work, sacrifice, discipline, um, you know, really, you know, things that you normally know you should be doing, but maybe you're not doing.

And then on this side is a sort of pain associated with dissatisfaction, not achieving your goals, failing in various ways, not being fulfilled. And so the thing that, the way to think about this, I mean, this is just a, this is just a geometric representation. It's something I think we all deep down know is this divider.

It's not gonna reduce the overall amount of pain in your life, but you can gauge in pain, pain, reallocation where this kind of pain, which I think most people want less of the pain associated with failure and not achieving your goals can be reduced. You can move the divide over so that that quantity of pain becomes much, much [00:36:00] less.

But the only way that's gonna happen geometrically is if you substantially increase this amount of pain. And that means you have to work harder and have more discipline. So that's what the pain box is about. . So, there's this pain reallocation where you can swap out this kind of suffering for this kind of suffering, but that means there's more hard work involved.

And then if you back off the hard work, of course you will do, there'll be less suffering in that sense and devotion and dedication, but then you're gonna have a much greater volume of the kind of pain associated with not achieving your goals and dissatisfaction. So I just, I kinda came up with that.

'cause I, it, what it does is it helps make very vivid the geometry of how I kind of live my life basically, which is, it's a kind of way of putting no pain, no gain, and only it's like. I realized that, wow, I really do want to have more success and I really do wanna achieve certain [00:37:00] goals. But given this sort of geometric representation, I can see that there's a direct inverse relation between that and how much hard work I do.

And so that's what kind of motivated me to come up with the pain box. 

Kush: No pain, no gain for sure. anybody who's been in the game long enough can likely identify with that. I want to go back Do the, uh, philosophy side for a second. Um, I mean, bill, you're a very thoughtful person.

Is there a philosophical idea or framework that's helped you push through some of that, again, pain or failure or, you talked about, I guess, choices for a second there. Is there something like that that's gonna helped you, uh, frame that and, and I 

Bill Ramsey: mean, 

Kush: I move forward. 

Bill Ramsey: There's maybe my interpretation of stoicism, but I, whenever I talk to somebody who really knows stoicism, they're [00:38:00] like, oh, no, no, no.

That's way too much of an oversimplification. And that's kind of, that's kind of a pop philosophy, um, perspective. I, I mean, I don't know. I, I, I do feel like there's a kind of ideological commitment that I have there that goes all the way back to when I was a little boy. And I know I, my father once told me this, I grew up on a cattle ranch.

But the bottom line is that you's like, you know, you need to accept that nothing comes easy. But if you work hard, it will come. And that's the difference, is working hard. And I think as a kid, I came to appreciate that I wasn't a really terribly good athlete. Um, you know, in most sports it seems like other kids were better, better, just naturally gifted athletes.

But I then came to appreciate that I, I did have a kind of gift where I could outperform other kids just by out cuffing, tougher, being tougher than them, frankly, and working harder and trying harder. and I could do that. That was the one thing I could do. Psychologically I was tougher than them and I could work harder than they were When I was in high school, we had [00:39:00] this thing called the Marine Corps Physical Fitness Test.

And it was pretty grueling. I mean, it was, it was, you know, a lot of, uh, think you had to do a hundred situps in two minutes, and then you had to do 60 pushups and pull up were like 30 and you only had like a few minutes in between each event. Um, and there was no coach or anything, so that's why I first started self-coaching.

That's why I first started figuring out what kind of work I needed to do to actually, do well in this. And it was, it was kind of a, a place of pride in Madris High School because we would always go up against the big Portland schools and we would always win. We would always, we were good at that. And so I took that quite seriously.

And I think the year I, my senior year, I had the highest score in the country for that particular test. Um, and that's when I first really came to appreciate that I like this process of self-coaching. And I also came to appreciate that, you know, regardless of what your natural talents are, I mean, obviously at some level it makes a difference, but it, at this level, it can all be overcome by just hard work and [00:40:00] sacrifice.

And, um, and I think, you know, what you see at the top level, at the very Olympic level is it, you have people who understand that, but they also are naturally gifted. And, um, so they got the, they got the whole package. But, um, you know, even if sort of rank amateurs, you can actually go pretty far by just toughing it out and working hard and sacrifice and, um, and having discipline.

And so that's always been my kind of underlying perspective, my underlying philosophy.



Kush: Bianca Valenti is one of the pioneers of big wave surfing. She is known for surfing some of the largest, uh, tallest and yes, just the most gnarly, big waves on this planet.

But when I asked her about her proudest moment in the sport, it was not about. Some huge wave that she has [00:41:00] served. It was about how she won the right for equal pay for women in the sport and why this moment means so much to her and for the world of surfing and for sports at large.

Is there a moment from your big wave surfing career that you get the most pride from 

Bianca: most, I mean, yeah.

The, the most pride is definitely winning the fight for equal pay. Yeah. Um, and but then by the way, when I saw my friend get that barrel, that wasn't exactly the moment that lit the fire. That was like, where I, I was like, okay, there's something here. But I actually had a, um, near death experience here at Ocean Beach that, that was really the true moment that lit the fire where I was.

[00:42:00] Um, I was still in college and I was a senior and I was up at visiting my friend at uc Santa Cruz, and we, it was the first 12 of the season in November. And we got up really early and started checking all the spots. And everywhere was crowded, crowded, crowded. And Santa Cruz at the time even had like an even more intimidating localism factor than anywhere else in the state.

And um, so we started, we just started driving north and we kept driving and driving and we got to Ocean Beach to VFWs at the beach chalet in between Fulton and Lincoln. And we saw like perfect waves. It was sunny offshore, nobody out. And we were like, oh my gosh. Y you know, like I was thinking of, you know when people c are coming across the Oregon Trail and they get to California and they're like, Eureka, we found gold.

And so I. I thought that, that this was it. I was like, we just struck gold. And [00:43:00] so we, um, what we had no idea was how big the waves are. 'cause there was no scale, there was no people and we didn't know what we were doing. Mm-hmm. And so, um, we were both good surfers at the time already, but not, didn't have, um, the right gear and weren't prepared to go out into what we went out in.

So we just, you know, we paddle out and we actually choose, you know, like I was already a lifeguard and so I, I knew the ocean and so jump into a rip and, um, have a nice, pretty easy paddle out. And then there's this one pr really big whitewater, like, uh, like 15 feet of whitewater. And I was like, wow, that's p that's a pretty big whitewater duck dive.

Go under that one. And then the next wave was just absolutely psychotic. It was like two story house and it was just throwing out, you know, like. Squaring off, and it was the biggest wave I had ever seen in my life about to break 10 [00:44:00] feet in front of me and with, so I was gonna have to absorb all the power of the wave.

I couldn't, I wasn't able to just like get under it before that point. And so, um, I looked at my friend and he said, well see on the other side. And I thought like, do I try to duck dive this wave or do I bail my board because I've just got this, um, comp light leash, which is like dental Foss. And I decided to try to duck dive it and, um, immediately the board's ripped outta my hands.

And I am just like experiencing violence. Like I've, I've never had this kind of experience before and I'm just getting like. Rag dolled and flipping and twisting and spinning. And, um, and I am just getting completely throttled, completely demoed. And finally the violence stops. [00:45:00] And I opened my eyes and all I could see was black and I had no idea which way it was up.

And then my feet touched the sand. And, um, I pressed off the sand and I, I think it took me like three strokes to get to the surface. I mean, I had no energy, so I'm just like very slowly making my way to the surface. And I had this thought of like, oh, if there's another wave, I will be dead. And it was just, it was just absolute fact.

There was no, I, I didn't have any energy to have any emotion about it. It was just like, yeah, the, if there's another wave, I'm dead because I am like. I have no gas in the tank right now. And I got to the surface and I was just gasping for air and my whole entire body was, um, started to convulse like parts of my neck, my fingers, and I had complete battery acid in my [00:46:00] legs from lack of oxygen.

And I saw my friend, he was there and he was like, I'm going in. And I was like, yeah, me too. And um, and so get back, finally get back to the sand. And I just stood there looking at those waves, like, I wanna surf those waves. I know I can do it and I need to get the right gear, put in the hard work, and that's what I want to do.

And, um, I knew I knew it at that moment. And, and then he, um. He, he didn't, he did not have the same experience. He ended up moving to Montana and becoming a fly fisherman. And, um, and then actually later we went to Fort Point, and I had never, and Fort Point was like, gigantic and barreling, nobody's out again.

And I'm like, Parker, let's go out. And he was like, I'll film you. And I just thought, I was like, this looks easy compared to what we just did. And, um, [00:47:00] immediately get like, paddle out, immediately get pinned down on a rock. And it was, there was no way I could, it was the same thing. I, I didn't have the right gear, not the preparation, but I, I don't know, like, that was just how my mind worked.

I was like, I see perfect waves, I wanna try to surf 'em. And, um, so yeah, that was the moment where I just like, after that day, I, I never looked back. I, I committed fully and um. And then, yeah, it's been like, it's been a, it's been a long, it's been an epic ride and a long ride and a ton of hard work and uh, and a steep learning curve where kind of, once again, I, you know, I just, same thing I did when I was a kid.

Like picked people as many people's brains as I could, begged people to let me tag along in the beginning. And, um, begged the first person who I got a, a gun from to surf Mavericks. I had to beg him to make me the board and promise him that I wouldn't die 'cause I was a woman to, to buy a board [00:48:00] from him.

And, uh, and you know, in the process I realized that like there was this, this, this, this power that, that was really impactful when people would see women surf big waves. That they would have their minds opened to like what women can do. And their whole perception of like. Women, what women are capable of would change and switch.

And so, um, along the way I, I started surfing contests again. And, um, and one of 'em was the big, the big wave event at Nail Scott Reef, Oregon in 2014. That was part of the Big wave world tour. And that was a really pivotal moment in my career because I, I, I met, um, Paige Alms, Andrea Moler and Keala Kennelly and to get, and um, and also it was the first time that, that a big wave surf event was broadcast live on the internet.

And so we went out, we surfed the first hour of the day. [00:49:00] There were 13 of us and we just had a really positive experience and really, um, really great feedback from everybody who watched live online. Having that experience of like, wow, we've never surfed seen women surf big waves. And so at that moment, after that event, I ended up winning, which was also like fired me up because I'm a competitor and I love winning.

And I was like, well, we should be on the whole entire big wave world tour. 'cause at the time the men had a six event tour and the you, you know. And so I went to pay, I went to all the women at the time and I was like, Hey, there's something here. I don't know what it is, but we should all make a pact to stick together, just like Billie Jean King did in tennis.

And um, most of them were like, we don't know what you're talking about. You're crazy except for Paige, kale and Andrea were like, yeah, we're with you. together we formed the Committee for Equity and [00:50:00] Women's Surfing and we got the state of California to back us. At first we were I just asking for access to compete at Mavericks.

Then eventually we also started asking for equal pay as well, and we got the California, so first we got the California Coastal Commission to back US, and next we got the California state lands to back us, which is even bigger than the Coastal Commission. And um, so in that process we were able to kind of back WSL into a corner and win equal pay for all women in surfing.

Jerry: Rob Matton is a rock climber from the UK and at the age of 74, Rob just climbed an iconic route at the Sea Cliffs of Whales. It is a very hard and committing route where a slip a fall [00:51:00] can. Result in serious injury or even death. So Rob talks about the climb, but what stood out to me was what came after a soft, powerful reflection on aging and identity, and the question we all face at some point.

Who am I when I'm no longer performing? At my peak.

Kush: Like what made you so prepared to be able to attempt, I think, in my mind, something pretty audacious in your seventies? 

Rob: Well, I haven't climbed all my life. I had, uh, eight years off climbing in the eighties. Um, I started climbing in 19, uh, [00:52:00] 57 when I was seven years old. ever since then, I've, I've been in the mountains and learning how to climb initially with my dad.

And then my mum came along. So it was a family unit. And then as I grew older, into a teenage years, I started going out with some mates. And by the time I was 18, I'd done all the hardest routes in the Lake District and I'd done all the hardest routes in Wales as well. 'cause we used to go down to Wales a lot.

So I, I ticked all the, all the routes off in the guidebook and I felt then I had earned the right to do new routes because I, I, I just felt, you know, you've gotta earn the right to do something special and to put a new route up is special. So that's when I started doing [00:53:00] new routes. And in 1969 I did my first new route, which was called Paladin in the Lake District, uh, which was probably the.

Well, probably one of the first e threes in the late district. And then, um, E three at that time was quite hard, so I've just worked up through the grades and right through the seventies as well. And in 1983 I stopped climbing 'cause I lost the motivation. So in 1983, uh, I took up, uh, started playing squash to a, to a high standard.

And I started windsurfing and I went pot hauling. 'cause pot hauling was easy to go to, a high standard because it's only semi-skilled in my, in my opinion. Wait a second. What, what does Potholing Rob? Oh, potholing is, um, going underground, squirming underground [00:54:00] into, uh, it's quite a big sport in the uk, um, going through really tight squeezes and in the uk um.

The hardest potholes were say, 18 hours. They were 18 hours to get down to the bottom and back out again. And if you got, if something happened below, below the crux of it, you curtains, they can't get you out. So it was really committing. So we did, we did a lot of the hardest potholes in the country. Uh, I'm sorry, that sounds horrible.

Kush: Yeah. Yeah. It sounds, sounds the exact opposite of, uh, of, you know, climbing big walls 

Rob: in the majestic open skies. Yes, yes. But it's, but at the end of the day, it's just the same because it's a challenge. Mm-hmm. So getting through a squeeze without getting stuck is a challenge in the [00:55:00] same way as doing a hard move on a climb.

yeah. So, yeah. So it's challenging. And I did a lot of skiing and, um, I started climbing again in 1990, sorry, yeah. 1990 after the climbing revolution. So I missed the eighties Totally. And when I came back, I couldn't believe how strong climbers were. It was unbelievable. And, um, and people were training.

Never trained, never trained in my life until 1990 when I came back. And when I re, when I retired in 2010, I became a full-time athlete and I could train every day. But then of course you got injured. Sure, sure. Because you train too hard, 

Kush: Rob. I can't. Yeah. [00:56:00] Fascinating. You left climbing, you came back and picked up all of these different sports.

Then somehow climbing lured you in. Yes. And I want Yes. It's always in your 

Rob: blood. 

Kush: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So I wanna, yeah. I love to say once a climber, like always a climber. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I wanna, I wanna go back into that a little bit, but I feel I, I do need to ask you about the day you sent the climb. Yeah.

And talk to us about that morning, right? You have put in all of this preparation, you have gone and inspected the route. You have figured out like what type of gear goes where you have head pointed or you have, no, sorry. You have rehearsed the route. So you have put a top rope down and you have rehearsed the moves.[00:57:00] 

And then before that also you've, you are bringing in all of this. Knowledge and this buildup over the decades, right? Yeah. And you are now standing on the ground. You know, you have your gear on you, you're tied in. What is going through your mind, Rob, as you attempt to set 

Rob: out? Well, you've got to remember that I went on the route at the end of March 1st to try and lead it.

And I'd arranged for, um, I'd arranged for photographers to come down and videographers to come down and people to hold my rope, which was hard to get 'cause a lot of people didn't wanna hold my rope. Can't understand that really. the, the weather was really cold and really windy. But because I'd [00:58:00] basically, I had to stop, I had to stop dancing around my handbag.

I'd laid it all out on the table. I'd arranged all these people to come down, so I felt I had to go for it. So I went for it in really windy conditions where I was getting buffeted around on the crack and I was freezing my hands, I was freezing. It was horrible weather. So that's, so I went for it. Then just to get the, what it's like to get on the sharp end flavor.

Uh, but I got a bit higher than I thought it would, and I managed just to get the sling over the peg. The wind was blowing the sling all over the place, and if I fell off then I would've been in trouble. But I managed to get it over and then I tried to make the crooks move, but I fell off. Goodness. And an hour later I.

I had [00:59:00] another call. 

Kush: Hang on, hang on. So you, you fell off and on this climb, I'm guessing there are different sections, you know, some sections are, are more dangerous than others. Yeah. So this particular place or this fall that you took was perhaps not as, uh, bad? Well, no, 

Rob: it, it was the crux, but it, um, I just managed, I just managed to hang on to get the sling over the peg.

You know, I said I wasn't having a sling on the peg, so I was having to crank up higher to get the sling over the peg. And it took me about three goals to get it on over the peg and I managed to get it over the peg. The, uh, photographers were shitting themselves. Craig was Craig, my son was on the other side filming.

And he, all he could hear was his heart going, boom, boom, [01:00:00] boom, boom. And then, um, yeah, then I exploded off. I fell off. But it was safe to fall off then. 'cause I could push it then to try and do the crux move because it actually got a sling on the peg. Now the pegs all right to fall on if you're underneath it.

'cause it's all rusted and knackered. And I had a sky hook as well. Mm. Just a bit down to the side of me. So I fell about, probably about 30 feet, 40 feet.

Jerry: Dean Kanas is one of the most accomplished ultra runners over the last few decades. I asked Dean to take us into one of his toughest races, and I was blown away by his story of planning and. Executing a race in [01:01:00] one of the harshest environments known to man right at the center of the South Pole in Antarctica.

Listen on.

Kush: Can you talk to us a little bit about how challenging it was to plan and execute a race in some of the harshest environment that we know about?

Yeah. Well, I mean, one, uh, you know, the itinerary was a 10 day itinerary. So I told my, I my, you know, my wife, I'd be back to San Francisco in 10 days and 30 days later I stumbled back into town. So I learned a lot about, um. Antarctica and how, you know, how dangerous it is actually, I'll just say dangerous.

And, you know, looking back at things, you, you, it's, it's, it's amazing that we lived through that. I lived [01:02:00] through that one and, and some of the other runners, because we were stuck on the polar plateau, um, which is, you know, the, the most remote place on earth in negative 25 degree temperatures for two weeks trying to run this race, just waiting for the weather to clear.

And in architect Antarctica, it, it doesn't always clear. I mean, you know, it rarely clears. We, we came to learn, but getting to the point where. You know, they're, we're, they're, the organizers are saying, Hey, this is not gonna work. We're gonna have to go. And, and us thinking, you know, us runners thinking, well, we've been down here for so long, we've put so much into this, we're not leaving.

You know, those are the kind of circumstances where people get themselves killed. You, you know, you're a climber. I mean, it, it's, you know, you're, you're a hundred meters from the summit and, and the weather turns bad. And, you know, your instinct is, I'm so close, I'm, I'm just gonna go back that summit and, and then [01:03:00] you gotta get back down.

So how many people have, you know, lost their lives by doing, you know, desperate things like that because, you know, because they're weighing the, they're weighing, you know, the, the, the stakes and how much they put into it. Like, I'm just gonna finish this damn thing. But somehow we were able to do the marathon and, and get outta there, um, unscathed, if you will, a little frostbite.

Yeah, 

yeah. No, and not only the effort and time that you put into the preparation, but also the fact that that particular opportunity will not likely, uh, present itself. Like how often will you get a chance to go down to that extreme end of the planet and do this? So you kind of have to lay it all on the line and, 

well, I mean, there were, there were supposed to be, we were told there'd be 40 to 50 intre runners from around the [01:04:00] world to, to run this inaugural this first ever, you know, south Pole marathon.

And, and there were three of us. Yeah. And, you know, and it was one and done. I mean, there's never been, it was supposed to be the inaugural race, like this ongoing series of runs, uh, marathons to the South Pole. And, and that was the first and, and only, and ever, uh, it, it's just too dangerous in operation. You know, they have marathons on Antarctica, but they're, you know, they're at the, at the shoreline where, you know, outside, uh, not near the pole.

And, you know, the, the, the coastline, 'cause I've run, um, on the coastline of Antarctica as well, it's, it's much more temperate than the interior. 

Jerry: Andy Mwe is one of the best sports physiotherapists in the uk. Andy specializes in rock climbers, but Andy's wisdom applies to practitioners of different kind of [01:05:00] sports. In this clip. Andy helps break down some movement drills and gives us a couple of simple. Exercises we can use to evaluate the health and the range of motion of our shoulders.

kush--he-him-_1_03-21-2025_101405: What is your favorite way to maintain healthy shoulders and 

range of motion? 

squadcaster-6ebe_1_03-21-2025_161406: ~other areas.~

~The body, ~if we feel we've lost mobility because, um, you know? we've just not been going there. We've just not used to being there. Um, then it's, it's a balance of most things, you know? so some stretching, encouraging stretching into that area. I think often when people are stretching, they go kind of too hard, really hard into it. Um, So some nice, consistent. [01:06:00] Static stretching can be useful pain free also some work into the end range So the type of thing may be where you would lie on the floor with your arms overhead in a, in a Y position. If you're able to do that, keep the arms super straight and lifting the hands off the floor.

So actually actively working against gravity, pull a guy. And that that's hard to do even with. with no weights or anything like that at all. But sometimes we can have the range in a shoulder, you know, the actual functional ranges or the actual range is there within the joint itself, but we haven't got the control. We haven't got the strength to access that is often kind of the first thing to go. Um, If it's, you know, age related disuse type issue. So to actually work, you know, do some stretching, then give the shoulder a signal to go into that range under its own steam, instead of being helped to get [01:07:00] there under its own effort. But one of the best that can be adjusted in various ways is.

to spend time in a hanging position. and I'm here talking obviously about, particularly about climbers. Um, but many overhead athletes, you know, if you've got a pull up bar that you can get feet on the floor. And to spend some time in an active position, you can alter that to wherever your comfort level is.

You could have feet on a chair, so your body is much more or much less of an angle, uh, rather than being totally vertical, because that can be, um, you know, irritating and painful for shoulders sometimes, and just spending time, you know, but we'd sort of hinted at in the start there that we'd stop spending time in these ranges. and that's one of the reasons. Why we can lose range if we're just looking at the age related, you know, process. [01:08:00] The other side of that really that we see with, uh, shoulders in particular, of, of difficulty moving them, of pain moving them, that type of thing, is often tendon related, um, and that's my, you know, we, we spoke last time about strength being super important, which it, is, you know, keep your muscle mass, improve your muscle mass, keep and improve your muscular strength, Um, all of that side of things.

Power as well, all of this, but what's just as if, if potentially not more important and I'm, yeah, I'm going to say just as important because if you say one's more important than the other, than people ignore the other one, we'll say both, um, is the, the tendons themselves and, and how we treat those. And to hanging is, is a good example.

We tend to hang for time, you know, hang for time. [01:09:00] 20, 30, 45 seconds, something like that. Uh, very good for the joint. That's your kind of stretch if you like through into it, but, also really good for tendons um, and tendons are not a very responsive tissue. Um, we, a lot of the tendons that we, that you can have in your, in your fifties, sixties and, seventies, that collagen was laid down when you were a teenager.

That's been with you potentially, if you know, for 50 or 60 years, the tendon itself therefore has much more potential to degenerate, to degrade than a muscle does. Muscles are constantly being renewed and replenished, um, and tendons aren't, and it's the fluid around the tendon, many changes happen in the tendon we can touch on later if you want, but, uh, what I will say here is that, yeah, we need to spend.

Some time [01:10:00] on our tendons as we get older, um, and isometric work. So static held positions with that tendon under some low level, low to medium level of strain doesn't have to be super hard work. Um, yeah, it's a really valuable thing to do And that actually fits in quite nicely, You know, with getting that range back.

So yeah, my, my number one, what would I do would be to find a way. to load in an overhead position for time that doesn't cause any negative symptoms and build from there. ~ Mm hmm. ~ Yeah.

kush--he-him-_1_03-21-2025_101405: Beautiful, Andy. One

squadcaster-6ebe_1_03-21-2025_161406: Yeah, 

kush--he-him-_1_03-21-2025_101405: I 

suppose we should quickly cover, is 

any simple movement tests or warning signs people should watch [01:11:00] out

for. Because like I said, I did not keep a close eye 

on my own. mobility degrading and, uh, I'm finding out kind of late. So are there, are there some tests that 

people

squadcaster-6ebe_1_03-21-2025_161406: so these things do creep up on us. You're quite right. you know, we lose a percent here or there and we sort of don't notice and the body can adapt around it as well. We can gain extra, you know, or work and bend through our thoracic spine or lumbar spine in order to compensate for overhead mobility loss.

We may not even notice it happening. So a super important thing I feel to do is to benchmark is to find what's normal for you Various different ways that we can do this. Um, but you know, the, the good old, Um, you know, wall angel or a floor angel, that kind of thing, you could video [01:12:00] yourself doing the wall angel.

Um, for people that don't, there's where you put your back flat against the wall and you put your, or try to put your, elbows and your hands against the wall as well, and straighten your arms overhead. Pull them back down. Um, or take a photo of yourself from the side, reaching overhead as high as you can. Um, yeah. And, and reaching behind as well. Um, as far as you can. so you've got something to reference it against. Now this isn't something that you would then check every week to see what's going on. It's not worth, uh, spending your time with that But every year, give it your, your, your new year, um, MOT, we would say, in the UK.

Which is the annual sort of safety check that your, car has. It's a, it's a term that we use it as sort of like to check everything's okay. Everything's running. all right. You change your oil, you change, you know, all the service at that type of thing. Um, so yeah, [01:13:00] you give yourself a once over the start of every year, be that Start of training season, start of climbing season, whatever works for you, or the new year, just because that's the time when people, you know, often are thinking about these kind of things.

Um, and just, just look, and that can be then you could look at your splits, you know, you could look at your, you know, whatever movement that you think, and just take a photo, you know, we've all got the, the digital, you know, data to, you know, storage now, and then compare each year.

Jerry: Jerry. Jerry has been one of the most. Influential rock climbers of the generation before [01:14:00] us. In this evocative clip, Jerry talks about the story of on sighting equinox, a world class crack climb in Joshua Tree. At the tail end of his competitive career, nobody had onsight. Nobody had even had the gumption to try.

On sighting equinox, a

climb. So D, nobody had even attempted what Jerry set out to do. His ascent of the climb was so visionary. But what makes this story compelling is not just ascent, but the whole story, the mindset, the flow state, the decision to go all in, all alone, far. From home. Yes, it is absolutely one of Jerry's [01:15:00] climbing career's.

Most defining a sense

I.

Kush: You on sighted, did that route first try, like without knowing what the route was like, without any prior pre inspection, Jerry, you on sighted that route. So talk to us a little bit about both the preparation and the focus. Wow,

Jerry: a guy called Randy Vogel who had written the guidebook for Joshua Tree. He came to England. I was 19. I'd not been to America yet. He'd never heard of me. said to him, what about this route, Equinox?

I really want to go to Joshua Tree and try Equinox. And he said to me, he was a good friend of Bakker's, he said, it. There's no way you're gonna do Equinox. I said, you'll cut your fingers to shreds. It took John Backer three days to top rope it. You've got no chance. That's what he said. So then [01:16:00] I was like, hmm. really got to do this route. then, I think, it was not conceivable, not, I'd have been happy if I'd done it in two days. But then when I meant, went to Joshua Tree, I was there for three months. a very good friend of John Baca and I did a lot of climbing with John. He saw me climbing and he was the one who gave me the, the idea to try and onsite it. Without him, I don't think I'd have tried to onsite it, but he said to me one day, you know what, I think you could onsite Equinox. So then I had it as a goal. to on site Equinox. So then I spent, oh, a month just training to do Equinox. There's some boulder problems there with finger jams, so I've been doing these boulder problems up and down and reversing them all on these finger jams. I was doing rope ladders, traversing, I was eating a fantastic diet. I don't think I've, all my life, I don't think I've ever peaked for a climb better than when I did grown ups. I was [01:17:00] so, so fired up. I was so fired up. Um, it was before, uh, half friends were made. So the smallest size you could get was a number one. John Bacalempian, a half friend, so I had this one friend I could put in the crack. Uh, and I can remember leading it, um, I climbed up, reversed down. Shook out, then I went up a little bit more, put some wires in, got to a little shake out. Um, I remember thinking, should I put the half friend there? I thought, no, I'll save it. And I was, I was so psyched and so fired up, I just ran it out, put one nut in, I just went, and I just went for it, ran it out. I reckon if they'd stacked another Equinox on top, I think I'd have done that as well. I didn't feel pumped and absolutely,

Kush: wow.

Jerry: absolutely cruised it. I pissed up it. I felt so good, but I was so psyched up and ready for it.

And so fit, I think I'd had two rest days before on my rest days. I was [01:18:00] doing probably 10, you know, I was just climbing all day on easy route. So I'd do loads of fives, eights and fives, seven. So I was doing loads and loads of easy mileage. And then my training days, I was doing ladders, pull ups, deadhands, traversing, bouldering, crack climbing, so it, you know, back then, there, there wasn't anywhere to train better, it was before climbing walls and, and anything like that, so I was really, really fired up for that route, and it was, you know, a, a big thing for me, and John was there, with his camera, he actually, he documented it and got some great photos, so. So it was a special day to go there with John Backer and, you know, have him take photos of you. It was really good and he was very generous, uh, to encourage me to do that. Ha, ha,

Kush: that one of those rare days you would break from tradition of, uh, you know, drinking tea and perhaps go to the local [01:19:00] bar at Joshua Tree and, uh,

Jerry: ha.

Kush: grab some pints?

Jerry: No, I, I, I never drank alcohol. If I'd had money I would have, but we never, I never had the money. I never had the

Kush: Sure,

Jerry: or go to a restaurant or anything. We were on such a shoestring there was no, it was pre sponsorship, pre, pre sponsored climbing. We absolutely lived on a shoestring. Uh, But yeah, I never drank alcohol then. If somebody gave me a beer I'd have had it, but I honestly remember never going to the shop and buying a can of beer. Because it was way too expensive. We didn't even, you wouldn't even, wouldn't even have a meal in a restaurant. You know, you might have a coffee, because it was free refills, uh, and that was pretty incredible. But that was about it.

Kush: sure. Absolutely. Yeah, no, so you put an incredible amount of really comprehensive preparation for this route. Like you saw the route, you were [01:20:00] inspired, you talk to others. It like lit this fire in you and you put all this time in Joshua Tree, uh, preparing for it. 

When you went to the route, you were physically completely ready. At the same time, you also had the mental, uh, state to be able to execute. And I think this is something that perhaps separates, let's say, you know, the very, very top climbers from the rest of us where, you know, we do all of the same things.

But then when we get to the climb itself, you know, we may choke, right? We may get either. we may either, you know, we, we, in that balance between let's say, um, focus versus expectation, we might like lose that, uh, lose that balance. And maybe that's also something that you talk about in your newer book, Mastermind, you know, the whole mental.

Jerry: yeah,

Kush: So talk to us, Jerry, [01:21:00] a little bit about The mental side of your preparation where you would get to this route and you would do it and I would also love for you to maybe, uh, uh, compare, contrast, whatnot, with similar techniques that you've studied in other top climbers, such as, let's say Adam Ondra, you know, master of on siding and, and flashing, like, what are these things that you guys have and what can the rest of us learn from them? 

Jerry: I think I went to Equinox, for one, John Bakker told me he thought I could unsight it. I've got somebody who says, I think you can unsight that. So I know it's possible because John Bakker's told me and he's done it. So then I can start to visualise it. And think of myself on sighting it because he thinks it and he thinks that he can do it.

So then I think it and then I would thought about it. So when I was at the bottom of the room, I truly believe that I could on [01:22:00] site it. I didn't know whether I was or not, I knew that I was in the best shape of my life. I knew that I could. Had a good chance of doing it. So, I was I was confident. And that confidence was instilled into me by John Backer, And, myself talking about myself onsiting it with John Backer. about it, and visualising it. So we talked about onsiting it. I visualised it, And it, it, it That, that instilled the confidence. So if you're trying to do something, uh, I would say the more you talk about, think about, and write about something doing, the more likely you are to actually, to actually on site it. And Ondra is no different from all the other climbers. He's, he's got it. He is a little bit different. He's got a really good, uh, attitude, um, Uh, about being confident [01:23:00] and, just preparing things, you know, he's confident and he thinks about things in the right way. I mean, if you get to the bottom of the route and you've got any doubt and you think you're not going to do it, it's going to be a lot harder to do it. So you really want to be visualizing things, um, I would say not, the one thing I learned from writing the book, you don't want to be optimistic, you want to be pessimistic. Yeah. You want to be pessimistic about everything you go to that route, because if you're optimistic, you're going to think to yourself, Oh, I don't really need to train about that.

I don't really need to think about that. the crux? Ah, it doesn't really matter. I'll probably just whambo. I'll probably just do it. You want to be pessimistic, so you want to go, Where's the crux? I've got to find out where that is. going to happen if that goes wrong? What happens if that goes wrong?

What happens if I get pumped there? are all the things that you need to think about prior to going to the root. Being that pessimistic [01:24:00] can lead you to being optimistic when you get there. So when you stand at the bottom of the root, you know What happens if you get pumped? Well, my fitness is good and I can shake out anywhere, and nobody's better than me in the world at shaking out. What happens if I read the root wrong? Well, that's probably not going to happen, because nobody reads poems better than me. What happens, um, Uh, if, uh, my foot pops and one of the moves, well, I, I know that my foot pops don't make any difference because I can remember that climb I did two weeks ago. My foot popped and I still did it. I know I can, I'm ready for it and I've thought about everything and I know what my, how I'm going to deal with all those things. So I would say be pessimistic. Think about all the things that could go wrong. will you deal with those things going wrong when you're on an actual climb? So when you're at the bottom of that climb, you can go, I thought about everything that can go wrong, and I know that I can [01:25:00] deal with every single one of them and still do the climb. That's, that's how you get to that position.

neil_1_06-18-2025_191911: I think what I'm gonna say here might surprise you. coach coaching Rob was no different to coaching anyone else. If you, if I'd never been able to actually see him and see that he looks like an older guy, if I'd just, you know, like only ever spoken to him on the phone, say, or I, I, you know, I'd seen video of him climbing and hadn't seen his face.

He's no different to anyone else. And I think that's the magic of it. sure he's got his weaknesses, you know, he's, um, he's half crimp, you know, he needed to do some work on that, needed to troubleshoot that a bit. He had a grumbly, um, upper back, like, um, sort of run boy type injury that, that, that needed a little bit of careful handling.

Just sounds like the next [01:26:00] climber to me. I'm not aware that this guy's 74, he could be 24. He certainly got the outlook of a 24-year-old. 

Kush: I don't see, he does, 

neil_1_06-18-2025_191911: I don't see, I didn't have to, you know, manage this guy. I didn't go to this guy. Oh, you're 74. Oh, maybe you should just do a few, a few stretches and a few pushups and just go and do a few six A's at the wall.

I just, I've trained him like I've trained anyone out.

Kush: Yes, that is, that is true. Even though, yes, some of us would be hoping for some kind of a magic bullet, but no, I think it is exactly that. Like he, ah, Rob or, or anybody else, I, 

neil_1_06-18-2025_191911: I've just given you the magic bullet. That was the magic bullet and that's why I answered it that way. That's the positive message.

You're not gonna have some coach like making these. You see, I wrote those articles in the, [01:27:00] uh, I dunno if you ever saw what I wrote on this subject in the early north for Rock and Ice Magazine, when I was their correspondent, I wrote these totally demotivating training articles saying older, the older you get, the less you should do.

Oh, you shouldn't train strength because you might get a finger injury. Oh, don't do long endurance sessions because you won't recover because your recovery's like totally gone. You know, like in fact, you might have not give up. You know, I, I wrote those articles. I was wrong. I wrote those articles because there was no data, there was no, there were no Rob Mathesons around to prove that, that, you know, that like.

Climbers are like in that film, Ben, you know, that film with Brad Benjamin button? You know, like climbers just keep, climbers keep getting better as they get older. I didn't know that back then. I just went on what they were saying in other sports. I looked at the re you know, you look at all these decline, these depressing decline curves, and I just applied that to climbing.[01:28:00] 

But, but the, but I, I'm so glad that I was so wrong. You know, and I'm the living proof of that in my own climbing, and so are all the older athletes that I've worked with. And that's why I'm quite proud to say that I didn't treat world mathes and dignity to how I would treat anyone else. Like sure. You know, I, I, I gave him the right amount of work, like, and the overall amount of load to, to, to, you know, to suit him.

But not because of his age, because he's who he is, you know? And like some climbers will tell me they can train three days in a row. No problem. Some climbers will say to me, they have to go day on, day off. Some, some will say they can do two days on one day. You know, like everybody's different. And it's more just down to individuality than age.

I, I, I, you know, I, I don't particularly see the pattern, you know, I, I don't see an age related pattern, you know, like I, I, I've noticed, um, [01:29:00] most of, a lot of the people come to me of all ages who say that they've tried to follow some crazy plan that they heard about that like, you know, Alex Megas was doing, or like some top superhero climber was doing.

They tried to follow this plan and they got overtrained and they got shut down, but they didn't say that because of their age. They just, you know, like, it's just genetic su susceptibility. So I think we all have to find a. I think we all have to find the right rhythm and tempo for our training. And this is something that I try and do with every, per, you know, obviously it's a key thing that I do with everybody who I train, but I don't make some like sweeping assumption, oh, you're 74, I'm gonna give you one half hour training session a week.

I, I, I don't do that.