#90 Survival Is Not Assured (Part II): Partnerships, Loss, and the Human Cost of Bold Alpinism

Ageless Athlete - Jim Donini - II
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Kush: [00:00:00] Jim, I always start with this question, which is, where are you right now and what did you have for breakfast this morning? 

Jim: Well, we were, uh, I got up late this morning, so I'm in re cal, uh, Colorado, where I live, my main home, and I had a piece of two pieces of banana bread and a protein shake for breakfast.

Kush: Wow. That sounds like a, a, a delicious breakfast. Maybe It's a, it's a Sunday thing. Was it, uh, banana bread that was made at home? 

Jim: No, unfortunately it was, uh, it was bought in the store, but my wife does make wonderful banana when she makes banana bread. You can really taste the bananas. Oh, yeah. Nice and moist.

The, the stuff you buy is not quite the same.

right now I'm traveling a van, so I don't have access to an oven, but I look forward to, uh, making, making some banana bread. The [00:01:00] next time, uh, I'm back in an apartment. I can, I can do that. And, and, and Jamie, you live in re and re is, uh, world famous for ice climbing mm-hmm.

Kush: In the winter. 

Jim: Yeah. 

Kush: we were just talking about how it's also become maybe a destination in the summertime. 

Jim: Well, in the summertime it's always been a big resort because we're at 7,700 feet above sea level. So you get a lot of Texans coming up here in the summertime to get outta the heat. And there's old mining roads.

So what these Texans like to do are a lot of, uh, they take ATVs out on the mining roads. So, uh, that that's been, uh, historically what, uh, it's been like in the summertime. People come here to get out the heat shop and, and, uh, go at TV, but there's a lot of things to do now. You know, when they built the, uh, uh, ice [00:02:00] park a few years ago, they decide one side of the ice park, there's a gorge coming right into town, and the gorge is very steep.

And, uh, so there's one side of the gorge where the sun doesn't shine in the winter time, and there's a pi, an old pipe coming down at the top of that side of the Gord from the old mining days. And about 25, 30 years ago, some local climbers noticed that wherever the pipe sprung a leak, the the water would drip down and freeze because there was no sun.

Now they have, uh, a completely sophisticated system and that side of the courts has about 200 ice routes and mixed routes. So it's super popular in the wintertime because one thing about ice climbing, you know, technically I think it's the easiest climbing 'cause you have these very sophistic sophisticated tools.

But also is probably the biggest, the biggest [00:03:00] difference between leading and following, I think is nice climbing. The smallest difference is probably in squarer climbing and track climbing. But nice climbing, you don't wanna fall 'cause you have all these sharp tools. And it's crampon actually, in fact, there the thousands of ice climbs I've done in my life, I've taken one 10 foot fall ever.

That's it. Oh wow. But you know, with the ice park you can, you can set up top ropes. So you get these people, you get a couple hundred people during the day. They're top roping ice, and that makes them feel much more comfortable. But the other, one of the reasons I live here is because, okay, you've got the ice park, but you know, there's great sport climbing here.

It's not well known, but there's about maybe 300 roots and they're on four, uh, three different types of rock. They're on limestone sandstone and quar site. There's no, no track climbing here, but there's track climbing [00:04:00] nearby an hour away or two hours away, depending which side you go to is the Black Canyon of the Gunnison.

And to me, that's the best, uh, multi-pitch track climbing in the country. I, I call it Yosemite, with an attitude.

Kush: Wow. Then the other thing that's quite, quite the, uh, quite an honor to bestow, 

Jim: well, you know, it's a little more intimidating than Yosemite. You have to go down into the gore. It's dark. These walls are really steep and there's no comfort size, roots. You know, Yosemite, they comfort size the roots by that.

They put in two bolts for every belay station. Well, you're not gonna find that in the black county, the gunison, no belay station. You have to make all of your belay station and the, and it's got a reputation for being a little bit spicy run out and maybe some loose rock. There is loose rock, of course, but there's [00:05:00] quite a few roots where the rock is perfect.

Like the, my, my favorite climb of its grade in the country is the scenic cruise. It's 13 pitches of perfect crack climbing, old school, 10 plus. And it's just a perfect climb. No, no bad rock. Little spicy, but not too bad. 

Kush: Sure, sure. And, and, and, and Jim, if you say it's a little bit spicy, then I think for the rest of us, uh, yes, I'm sure it backs.

A punch. I haven't yet been to climb at the Black Canyon yet. And I think, yeah, partly some of its reputation precedes it, but yeah, the idea of descending down into a canyon totally changes. Uh, I think just the perspective, you know, from to, from the, the classic, uh, let's say format where you walk up to a cliff and you climb up, and in this one you have to kind of go down, uh, uh, this, this steep canyon and [00:06:00] you know, you only, you have to climb out.

There's no other way you can, you're gonna get back to, uh oh. 

Jim: No, you can, um, most of the gullies, uh, you can get back, get back up them. I see. In fact, uh, but, uh, that's called the walk of shame. 

Kush: Yeah. Yeah. That, and also if you are, if you're midway upper climb, you know, then like you kind have this, uh, dilemma, right.

Yeah, you, you, you, you, you wanna finish it because, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you might have an es escape, escape hatch through the gully, but, but you'd rather climb the top. Jim. yeah, I wanna talk about, I, I know that, um, this recent stretch has been a little challenging for you, just based on some of the conversations we had recently.

If you're comfortable, would you mind sharing, how are you doing these days? 

Jim: Oh, you mean physically? Yeah. Did you know I have a, [00:07:00] I got diagnosed with lung cancer. I heard, I 

Kush: heard, yeah, I heard you also also found out kind of accidentally 

Jim: Well, uh, yeah, right. Well, you know, um, I turned 82, uh, last July 23rd into Teton You know what? I've in fact done some of my best technical alpine, first ascent in my fifties and even early sixties. So I, I, people knew me, you know, for climbing at a fairly difficult, uh, level later on in life. And, uh, I think one of the reasons I've been able to do that is because I've never lost interest.

I so always have motivation, but from a genetic standpoint, I was blessed with the fact that I don't have any joint problems, no arthritis. You know, a lot of climbers are like me, who have been climbed for a long time. They end up with sore elbow problems, shoulder problems, back problems. [00:08:00] Jay Smith is a, a really good climber, 10 years younger than me, and I, I climb a lot with, he's still very strong, but he is dealing with really severe arthritis problems.

So I never had to stop climbing because I, I, you know, I had a sore elbow or. Bad knee and, uh, if you never stop climbing, you stay in good shape. But, um, you know, then about three or four years ago, I got back from the car quorum and I was doing a little hike with some local friends, and I, I was, uh, I felt really weird.

My balance was off and then it got worse and worse over the, uh, intervening months. And it was just, uh, I noticed too that my fine motor skills, like buttoning my shirt, signing my name, that got a little bit more difficult and I think, what's going on here? And, um, I finally, and then my climbing was affected because, uh, my bowel was wrong, so I wasn't using my feet [00:09:00] correctly.

And then I finally got it diagnosed. I had Parkinson's disease. That was three years ago. The reason I never thought I had Parkinson's is because I'd never had hand tremors. So I have a fairly mild, uh, case of Parkinson's. So I started taking, uh, uh, dopamine three times a day and that all the symptoms pretty much went away.

Within two or three days, I could cut my shirt, I could sign my name. And, uh, so it was kind of, wasn't thinking too much about Parkinson's. And then, uh, six weeks ago I came back from a road trip where I went climbing the City of Rocks and I went to Seattle and did some book signing. I got back home, TV was on.

I'm in the living room doing some exercises. I have like a, a, a thing. It is, uh, like a six foot, uh, rubber tube with handles on the end. So you step on and go like this and you do curls, but it doesn't get, create much [00:10:00] pressure so you can do the curls very quickly. So I'm doing these curls like this and all of a sudden I hear a snap.

And I feel this incredible pain. Like somebody hit me on the elbow with an with a hammer, and it was incredible. So I, I went right to the, uh, emergency room I took, my wife took me, turns out I broke my, uh, humerus bone on this arm where it meets the elbow. Now, when I heard the snap, I thought that maybe the tube did a, of the, uh, thing that I was using broke.

And then I thought maybe the hard plastic candle came around and hit my elbow. But when I got back home, the, uh, it was intact. So what it really did snap, that I heard was my bone breaking. So it turns out it was a, what they call a pathological break, meaning that the force I was using would not have been sufficient to break a healthy bone.

So they found out then what the reason I, uh, my, my bone [00:11:00] broke is because I had lung cancer that had metastasized to my frigging bone. You know, so here I am six weeks later and, uh, I would not, if I hadn't broken my arm and hadn't have found that out, I would still not know I had lung cancer. Wow. But I, on the other hand, there, you know, I, there are symptoms up three months ago I went, uh, I went to Red Rocks for a week with George Low, my hiring partner.

And uh, I've always been really good at walking uphill of paw. 'cause I was a distance runner and I always had good endurance. I noticed that my approaches, I, uh, I was breath much harder than normally would though in the uphills. And then the other thing I noticed was that, you know, I just didn't have as much energy, but these are symptoms that you get.

I say, well maybe I'm just getting old and I'm out of shape. But obviously it was because of the lung cancer. So, [00:12:00] so, wow. But the, I, uh, you know, the one good thing about it is in this day and age, the, the treatments they've come up with are much, much better than they were. My wife, in fact, was a cancer researcher in, at MD Anderson in Houston when I met her.

So she's been a terrific help, not only in drive me around, but in, uh, talking to the doctors and the oncologist about what's going on. So they did a lot of genetic testing and, uh, and they found that I had this thing that, that they were able to do. They're gonna be able to, what they call, um, targeted treatment.

So I go up to Huntsman Cancer Center in Salt Lake this coming Tuesday, and, uh, they're going to start giving me a pill, which will, will, which will treat the ca hopefully the cancer. And I may be able to get out of this without having surgery. Or without [00:13:00] having chemo. Hopefully that I hope so. Yes. Yes. So looking forward to getting up there and getting this pill.

It's supposed to be, the oncologist that I was talking to him, he said, you know, when we, we put people on this pill, it's really amazing how many people tell us within a few days to a week of getting it, how much better they feel. So I'm looking forward to it. 'cause I don't feel very great right now. I don't have any mind, I don't have much drive right now, you know?

Sure. I usually have a lot of drive and a lot of, uh, energy, but I'm kind of feeling blah. Yeah. But hopefully I'm looking forward to getting back into climbing again. Uh, even though I'm in my eighties now. Something I love doing. 

Kush: Jim. Well. Firstly, thank you for, thank you again for making time to talk to us. Yeah. In the middle of this, uh, I guess this journey that you are going through medically wishing [00:14:00] you Yes. Wishing you the best and hopefully yes. Uh, neither chemo nor surgery sound like appealing option, so hopefully this other treatment is gonna work, right?

Yeah. And you know, I'm sure you, yeah, I believe you. When you say you are not feeling too well, but you look great and, uh, 

Jim: yeah. It's all relative and 

Kush: Yes, yes, 

you. I wanna talk about another place that is dear to your heart and you mentioned it, which is the KA quorum and you've had a long history with that place, the mountains and the climbing there. And I actually had Thomas Huber on the show last year.

Oh yeah. And Thomas was getting ready for his trip to to Pakistan right before [00:15:00] I spoke with him. And he mentioned that you would be joining him on that trip. 

Jim: That's right. 

Kush: And I was amazed. And then I think later on I saw some media of you celebrating, I think your birthday up in the mountains. So. What pulled you back to the Karakorum last year?

I think you were turning 81. 

Jim: Well, you know, I, um, so my focus has been alpine climbing and my focus has been technical climbing. I don't, I don't care for, I'll never climb in 80,000 meter peak because every, every 8,000 meter peak has a non-technical route where you're just kicking steps in the snow. Even K two, even K two, the, so for me it's always been about real technical climbing and the, the Kara Quorum is, you know, the [00:16:00] northern extension of the Himalaya, mostly in Pakistan.

And, uh, it, it's composed of mounds are, are grine in composition. So since they're grine. When they wear down, they, they stay steeper. So the mountains in the karakorum in generally speaking, are more technical than the mountains in Nepal, for example. So I first went to the Karakorum in this, uh, become a famous climb.

The, uh, when I did with George Lowe and Michael Kennedy and Jeff Lowe, where we spent 26 days. And, and, uh, I fell in love with them because of certain things. The place is beautiful. It's technically, and it offers up the best, alpine climbing in the world probably. And I really like the people in, uh, in Pakistan.

You see, uh, people say, oh, you go to Pakistan, isn't that really dangerous? I said, no, it's, it depends where you go in Pakistan. So if you fly to Al [00:17:00] Pendi and then take a little flight to Skardu, once you're in Skardu, you're in Baltistan home at the Bies. Uh, and these people. Not pro Western, they're Muslim, but they're, uh, they have a, uh, a more liberal version where in Baltistan you see a lot of, uh, schools for girls.

So they wanna agitate their, and then, then, but away from there, down in the suny tribal areas, they burned down schools for girls. So it's a whole different Wow. So when, uh, I've, I've, uh, spent, uh, seven times in Pakistan and the Kara quorum, maybe a total of a year, you know, a couple months each time. And I've never had an issue where I felt threatened by anybody.

And the bulky, uh, people are so tough. They're, they're very poor. They're so, they're only the, the men, they only weigh about 120 pounds, and the lows they carry are amazing. So I love the [00:18:00] people of the mountains in Pakistan. I love the beauty of Pakistan, and I love the challenges that it, that it gives you.

Yeah, I, I first went in with, uh, Kama Huber in 2016 with George Low. Mm-hmm. So what happened is, uh, you know, when we, uh, came down from our climb on late talk in 1978, we were very near the summit, but we were, we had been caught in a bunch of storms on the route. So we started out four of us with 14 days of food or 12 days of food.

We ended up spending 26 days on the route because we got caught in storms, low down and storms high up. And, uh, so we're really close to the summer. We know that we f for the first time we can dig a snow cave. The face was so steep. Climbing was so steep, you don't get any snow buildups. So we, we had a lot of, uh, biv wax, which were right out in the [00:19:00] open.

No 10 nothing. Luckily, during those times, we didn't have bad storm, so we finally got quite high. We know we're only, um, few hundred feet from the summit and we know that there, then there's a big mound of snow. So George, uh, Jeff Lowe and I are digging a snow cave while George and Michael put up a fixed rope on a, on a head wall, 200 foot head wall, right by the, uh, we were gonna have the snow cave.

So we think we've got it because we're gonna, the idea is we're gonna spend a, uh, night in the snow cave and leave all our gear there, get up in the morning, do more up to fix ropes, tag the summit, come back down to the snow cave, and then start down. That's outside. But even though we're low in food, we're low in fuel, we're, we've lost a lot of energy and strength, but we still think we can do it.

Two things happen while we're digging of the snow ca. A big storm starts coming in from the southwest, and Jeff Lowe gets ill. [00:20:00] So the next day we're in the snow cage. Jeff is in and out of co consciousness. He's delirious. We're at 23,000 feet and, uh, it's storming. So make a long story short, we end up eventually trying to go to the summit.

Jeff gets really, he uh, he becomes unconscious on a belay ledge. We spent the rest of the day getting him down to the snow gate. Now we know it's over. We have to go down and we have this epic four day. So the fact that we didn't make the summit of the climb, it made it famous. Because think about it, that this, that climb, if we had done it 1978, it would've been the most difficult, uh, climb in the Himalayas with without fixed ropes, without siege tactic.

But the fact that we, uh, if we had made it, it would be to consider just a really hard climb, but no one else would go on it because the kinds of climbers that could do a climb like that. Our [00:21:00] climbers that wanna do their own first descent. But the fact that we let that little tiny bit open at the top, we didn't get to the top.

We left the, uh, climb open for a lot of other trips and in the next, uh, from 1978 to 2017, 35 expeditions went in to climb our route. And in until 2017, nobody got within 2000 feet over our high point. I'm going, what? What's going on? Every time I heard about who was going to go in, I'd say, well, they're really good.

They're stronger than we are, and they have much better gear. You know, now they'll do it. And no, they didn't do it. No. So nobody got within 2000 feet high. But I'm thinking, what's going on here? Is there some evil mountain goddess casting his spell? I got a, uh, an email from Tomas Hubber in 2016, and he's also.

[00:22:00] History Buffalo. He, he understands the history of climbing. So he appreciated what we had done. So we, uh, so that year, 2016, George Lowe and I went in with him, and we had another friend of ours, mine, Tom Engelberg that went in and, uh, I just wanted to see what was going on. And we, and it was, uh, it was incredible.

And while he had two young Germans with him, they were very good climbers. But, you know, by the time, uh, we were in, in position to climb and everything, uh, oh, by the way, when that happened, there were two climbers from Salt Lake City, uh, that were trying to climb his big face on the Yore two. And, uh, Kyle Dempster and, uh, Scott Adamson.

I talked to the, uh, I talked to Kyle Dempster a week before he left. They went in two weeks before us. Uh, so when we got [00:23:00] there, we knew that they were there. Their, uh, liaison officer, I mean, their, uh, uh, guy before came down, he heard we were, so he came down an hour from our base band. When we got there, the, uh, a storm came, not really a bad storm, but all of a sudden you couldn't see the peaks.

Gfo came down and said that they were, uh, that he had seen their lights very high on the climb the day before. He said they'll be down in two or three days. Well, as you know, they never got down and we, we never found their bodies they de per. So, uh, things like that happened. And it turns out that when we got a really good window of weather, George and, uh, Tom Engel and myself, we were there to see what was going on, but also to do our own climbing.

So there was a little 6,000 meter peak down glacier. So we went down to try and do that, and we got very high on the peak. And, uh, [00:24:00] here, here we were, George and I and, uh, Michael and, uh, Tom Engel. And, uh, we're way, we're very high. We can see the, the summit. We can make the summit, but it's, uh, late in the year.

By then, it's late September. And even though the weather was perfect, it was cold. And even in all of our down in the sun, with no wind, it felt cold. So we could see where you make the summer. We also realized that we would have to have a bib whack in the dark without sleeping bags. Well, we were in our seventies, you know, mid seventies, and that we said to each other, well, you know, maybe a few years earlier we would've suffered a biv WC like that, but nah, we're not gonna do that.

So we went down and I got back to base camp before everyone else. The weather was still perfect and there was Tomas Hubbert. And I thought they'd be on the, on the climb. And he, what had happened was that the two climbers he [00:25:00] had with him, you know, after the Americans died and the other thing, they decided that the route was too dangerous, they wouldn't go on it.

Yeah. Growing up together. So I, and anyway, Tomas is a great guy by the way, and Yes, really, I really, really, I love the guy. And, uh, he does a lot for the Pakistan. He is the, the in pa in, uh, Pakistan. And Du he's well known. He is, uh, he's really appreciated. He's, he's, uh, he started a, a non-profit to builds build, uh, dorms for kids coming from the villages in the car duty to get an education.

They build dorms for them, places for them to stay. But the, you know, I went back to the, uh, Pakistan last summer. Yeah. With, uh, this time I knew that they were going to. The two partners he had were two American friends of mine, tad McRay and John Griffin. I had done a couple, first Ascents with Tad [00:26:00] McRay, and we did one in 2016 and Unlined Peak in Patagonia in 2017.

When I did it in 2017, I was 74. He's 42 years younger, but he reminded me. Wow. So we became good friends and uh, and uh, so, uh, Huber decided he wanted to go with Pat McRay and John Griffin, and I knew that they, that, that they wouldn't get cold feet, they'd go on the mountain. So I went in with them and for the first time in Pakistan, the first time ever I got a stomach bug.

Kush: Oh no. 

Jim: Yeah. So here I'm at 15,000 feet of base camp and I can't keep any food down. Oh gosh. And, uh, so I had gone in, uh, I also Jeff Powder who wrote my biography. He came in too 'cause he wanted to see the carrot, he wanted to see the late talker and I told him about it. He had been to Nepal several times when he got in and he [00:27:00] saw on the choc toy glacier, you're there, you are in, and what you look at to your left is ox three late talk one, ogre two, and the ogre.

Yeah. Yeah. Those four mountains are one of the hardest mountains in the world to, to climb. And uh, so he was blown away by it. And, uh, he had to go out one week. I was, I was gonna stay for a couple weeks and just sure. And, but, uh, he had to go out after a week because of business concerns. So I felt so bad with the, uh, not being able to keep my food down.

I went out with him. I went back to du it, so idu nine days early. I was originally gonna get to Du and then fly to Munich and meet my wife. So here I am Indu, not feeling very good with a stomach problem. I emailed her and I said, get me to Slovenia on Perkish Airlines in Slovenia. And I have a good friend here, SVO Carro.

Do you know that name? [00:28:00] He's a pro, I think so. I've I've heard the name. Yeah. He's a famous LP of Slovenia that has a Yeah, yeah, yeah. Theory. He has a film festival, so he is a good friend of mine. So he picked me up at the airport, took me to his home in a Mediterranean for nine days. He fed me really good meals and made me, he made me eat ice cream twice a day.

So by the time I wiped it out and picked me up, I was semi recovered. That's funny. Yeah. 

Kush: I mean, I, I, yeah, I can imagine that contrast from, uh, b bulky food at 15,000 feet in the Himalayas to, uh, Slovenian, uh, high cuisine by the water 

Jim: uhhuh. You know, 

Kush: Jim, I, I grew up exploring the Indian Himalayas. 

Jim: Yeah. 

Kush: And, uh, to some, some degree Nepal as well.

But, uh, exploring the karakorum, I think it'll remain a pipe dream because I was born in India and even though I hold a [00:29:00] US passport now, yeah, Pakistan will not give me a visa, I think, to explore that part of the world. So, yeah, I, I just have to live vicariously through stories like yours. You have spent all this time in Pakistan, in the Kara Currents, and thank you for reminding us of your famous, uh, climb, uh, 26 days, you know, trying to summit.

one thing in Alpine climbing is, um, is knowing when to turn back and. That decision can be as critical or even more critical than, than pushing on. So, your legacy has been defined I think maybe in equal parts, not just on claims you have completed. 

Jim: Yeah. But 

Kush: on, on just, um, [00:30:00] clients you've attempted.

So how do you make that call? Like, is there like a rubric that you use because there's so much effort sacrifice that goes into realizing this vision, go climb in the Karakorum or Patagonia with this team that comes together. So how difficult is that decision and how do you go about making it? 

Jim: Well, you know, um, okay.

I was born in 1943 and uh, my father was a college professor. We lived in, uh, Philadelphia. I was born in Phil. So when I was, uh, growing up, um, when I was 10 years old, 1953, I remember hearing about Everest being climb for the first time. And I thought, oh, because my father was a history professor. He didn't travel much, but he got me reading when I was a, uh, very young books on exploration in Pennsylvania [00:31:00] and Philadelphia in the, in the, uh, late fifties or early sixties.

You never heard about climbing. There weren't climbing gyms. So I didn't know anything about climbing, but I wanted to be an explorer. I really wanted to. And uh, and I thought to myself, oh my God, it's 1958. Everything's been explored. And, uh, then, uh, I got into climbing accidentally, and it was a tragedy that got me into it.

Actually. I finished my freshman year at university and during the summer, uh, I drove up to the Poconos. There, there, there's supposedly mountains in Pennsylvania. They're only 2,500 feet high. We drove up, uh, I had three friends with me. We drove up to the Pono, Poconos for the weekend. We're coming back Sunday evening and I'm driving, it's late at night and everybody in the car is asleep, but me, I'm driving, my last memory is rolling down my window.

'cause I was, you know, needed to get some [00:32:00] fresh air. Then I woke up, I fell, I had fallen asleep and hit a bridge and there were lights all around me. I had been knocked out by the steering wheel, but not badly hurt. And my best friend who was sitting next to me was killed. And another, uh, friend in the back.

So I'm 19 years old, I've had an accident, car accident, and my best friend is killed. So I quit school, joined the army, you know, maybe to punish myself, I don't know. In 1962, when I joined the Army, special Forces had just been, you know, green Berets that had just started. So when I got in the Army, I decided I might as well, I might as well make it interesting.

So I ended up getting into special forces in the Special Forces Ag detachment. And uh, we were training for a mission in North Carolina in the mountains in 1964. And, uh, we're way back in the mountains and we have two British climbers from the British SAS, which is their [00:33:00] Special Air, special Forces. We were all, we were taking a and a day off and they, there was a cliff nearby.

They put top ropes on the cliff. These guys have been rock climbers. And so I got to go rock climbing for one afternoon in North Carolina and I said, man, this is incredible. And that's what got me to climbing. When I got outta the Army, I ended up. You know, finding out where to go, uh, where to go climbing, it was more difficult in those days than it is now.

But, uh, that was a, that's what got me into climbing. \ All of a sudden I realized when I got in the climbing, uh, so I started climbing around Philadelphia.

There's little rock cliffs. Not very good. Then I went to the Tetons in Wyoming. 'cause that was in the ni early sixties. Climbers were there, there weren't as many places to go climbing. There was no sport climbing. So mostly in the East coast you had people climbing in North [00:34:00] Conway and, uh, the Schwan dunks and then, uh, Yosemite and then Boulder, Colorado.

And, but, uh, everybody, a lot of climbers would go to the Tetons in the summertime. So I went there and I realized that I could now fulfill my exploratory urge because now on a micro level, I could go someplace and climb an Unclimbed peak. And, uh, to me, you know, I could end up spending a night on a ledge no one had ever slept on before I could be on the summit of something.

So to me, that was fulfilling my exploratory areas. And that's still important to me. And that's why I think to be able to keep climbing for a long time, like I have, you have to. Physical attributes and, you know, my, uh, they have, you can't have problems with, well, whatever, but you have to have motivation.

And I've always had motivation, even when my climbing level dropped [00:35:00] off, because I still were to go back and find unlined peaks decline. So one thing about Very important. 

Kush: Yeah, super important. Uh, I wanna get back to the question of, uh, of a retreat. But one thing I'm glad, uh, thanks for reminding us of your early, uh, beginnings into the sport.

Uh, I was reading your excellent biography, survival is not assured. And one of the things that I, you know, that, that kind of stuck with me was when you were starting out, like right from your first trip to the Tetons. Then you went to Canada and you did a few things. There seemed to be this, uh, this confidence in you and, you know, maybe, maybe almost bordering on a bit of a billions.

Yeah. Right. Where you would just start climbing, you know, you would not, you would be using, you would, you would [00:36:00] go on a mixed climb and never having used ice gear and you would just start going up that climb. Yeah. Right. And, and you did that many times. I mean, this is a far cry from like, the careful like, um, you know, nurturing that happens normally, you know, the mentorship and you, you, you kind of learn things step by step, but you just saw something and it seemed like you decided to just go for it.

And where, where did you get that kind of, uh, I don't know that gumption from, 

Jim: I don't know, you know, but, uh. Has been the case. For example, when I started going to the Teton climbers that were older, that had been there for a while, they were very, very, um, you know, climbers would get a reputation, well, you can't climb that because it's, you have to really work up to it.

But, well, I, I ended up with my, my buddy Ross Johnson, who was in Special Forces with me. [00:37:00] We were there early when, um, Yvonne Ard gave his first ice climbing clinic in the Tetons. Yvonne had gone to, uh, Scotland and France and Austria and had check out all the different types of ice climbing techniques and then put 'em together into a new American ice climbing style.

And he wrote a book about it. And I, uh, Ross and I went to that first seminar. We were the only rookies there. The others were all climbing rangers and there. But, uh, so we, we took the seminar and the next day we went out and did the black ice Cool art, which was, uh, considered the, uh, hardest ice climbing at Tetons and Luis.

Oh, okay. It didn't seem too hard. And at Ard, uh, heard about that and he said, you guys should go to Scotland. And he gave us some names of some people. So we did. The next winter I went to Scotland, and [00:38:00] at that time, in 19, when was that 71? The, uh, ice climbing had not come a long way. They were still, uh, up until recently, they were still chopping steps and Point five Gully on, on Ben Nevis was considered the hardest ice climb in Scotland, if not the world.

So we show up. I'd actually become a good rock climber by that time. I'd climbed the so fe wall, but. But, uh, the locals, when we got there to Scotland, the weather was really bad, raining, terrible, and no ice. So we ended up going to this Ja, uh, bar called the Jacobite and getting, getting to know all the local climbers, and we, we could drink with them, we could keep up with them.

So they liked us and they, they knew that we were very, we hadn't done much ice climbing, so I remember they said, well, when the ice comes in, we'll take you on the, the smear, and then maybe we'll take you on the Italian climb. And that they, they were [00:39:00] working out a little climbing thing for it. Sequence.

This 

Kush: like 

Jim: stepping. Yeah. Well, the smear was a grade three and, uh, kind climb was a grade four. And the, uh, one, one of the guys who was uh, 0.5 go, he hadn't been flying for a while. So the, uh, this guy was gearing up to do it. That, that winter. Well, eventually the, uh, weather changed, got really cold, and the ice came in, in the middle of the week.

All those guys were still working. They had to climb on weekends. So Ross and I just put our gear on, hiked up to the base of, uh, Ben Nevis, looked at 0.5 go. He said, why not? And we climbed it. We, we went, we went back down and they, they were blown away that we had done that. And then the word got out to the Eng England English climbers that, these two yanks that hadn't done much ice climbing, just to put the 0.5 going.

So I think by us doing that, we took the fear out of the climb. 'cause then people started coming up and doing it. [00:40:00] So I, I've never, I, I don't know, I just always thought that a, uh, I've always been confident that if I, if I can't get up something or I can't do something, I can get away safely. And that's, that's one, uh, you know, I've, I've, uh, number of the, uh, persons since I've done in the alpine climbing have been on second or third attempts.

One thing you have to be able, if you're doing hard core. State-of-the-art, I alpine climbing. You have to be able to embrace failure. 'cause there are so many factors that come in that will keep you from doing a climb. Largely the weather conditions. So many times they're going into a climb and, uh, conditions weren't right.

The weather wasn't right. You can get up and they'd come back the next year and do it. So, uh, what, what was I getting? So my, my theory has always been getting to the top is optional. Getting back down is obligatory. Yeah. You know, you get back down, you [00:41:00] can always go back. If you don't get back down, that's it.

You're over, you're done. 

Kush: Exactly, exactly. And you. Develop this, I don't know, this, uh, uncanny sense perhaps, Jim, of knowing when to turn back. So getting back to that like, yeah, like maybe, maybe you can talk about maybe one of your more difficult, uh, decisions, but maybe in in hindsight 

Jim: you are correct.

That's a good point because that's real critical. You know, uh, young climbers say, what's the most important thing I need to do to get into serious alpine climber? So the most important thing is your partner. Now, one thing I learned when I was in Special Forces, I was on a, an operational, a 12 man a team.

I learned that you had to have faith in your partners so that they could take, uh, watch your back when you were, for [00:42:00] example, if you're on a climb, you can't have your A game every day. You wanna have a partner that if you're having a bad day. They're out front. And I've learned that the support, uh, one of the things, you know, you read the chapter about, uh, the climb in China when there were four of us.

Yes, yes. I decided at that point that I always wanted to climb with just one other person. And that person's critical. What do you have to have in a person like that is, first of all, they have to buy the plane ticket. What, what I mean by that is that a lot of times you'll get some, oh yeah, I'll go, I'll go.

And when it gets time to buy the plane ticket, they, oh, well, you know, I can't go. So you go, you want somebody that's gonna be reliable. You want somebody that's gonna have the same level of commitment you do. Maybe not more, maybe not less. Right. Right. About the same level of commitment, because when you're on an alpine climb, there are so many, uh, temptations to go back down.

Because [00:43:00] let's face it, it's always, you're always, we don't doing these new big roots and big, big faces. There's the danger element, there's the weather, there's the, uh, work, there's the, you cold, you're not eating mu well. So it's not that much fun sometimes. And it's so easy to make an excuse. I mean, 

Kush: there are more reasons, multiple ex more reasons to want to go down than to stay.

Yeah. 

Jim: It makes, it's very easy, I think, to have an excuse to go down, but if you don't push hard when you're alpine climbing, you'll never get up. But if you push too hard, you'll never get to climb again. So there's this fine line between pushing too hard and pushing not hard enough. And I don't know how to define that.

I guess I've been lucky because I've always pushed really hard, like light talk and I, but I, I, a lot of times I've come down, but you, you gotta push that, uh, umbilical cord, but you don't wanna break it. [00:44:00] So it's, it's hard to decide. I I maybe I've, I've had a lot of luck because I've always gotten back down.

Here I am. I, I've never even been injured by a climbing. 

Kush: yeah. I mean, you, Jim, what I'm learning is you have had this, this really unique combination of this, this burning desire and talent and, and maybe luck to, to want to go and do some of the most, let's say, outrageous climbs first a sense.

Jim: Yeah. 

Kush: But you've also had, had the savvy to know when to stop. Well, you know, 

Jim: I think for alpine climbing, there's, there's some factors. You need to have a certain skill set. You have to have the skill. You need to have good judgment. 'cause you can look at a face, you can say, okay, it looks like going over there safer.[00:45:00] 

There's not, you know, you can always pick out a route that is, uh, maybe gonna have less objective danger than other routes, but there's no big route on an alpine crime that's totally safe. So you have to have good judgment, you have to have good skillset, and little luck doesn't hurt. 

Kush: You know? May I ask you this question, you know, over the decades since you first rented the Tetons and the car curtains?

Yes. Technology has come such a long ways, uh, better training, better gear, and also just superior weather forecasting. But we still hear of accidents in the Alpine, like every year. You know, you talked about Kyle Dester and his partner, sadly, perishing, and, and these things happen. So in, in your. Perspective, like what is it that climbers ness of [00:46:00] today are maybe not heating?

Are they being too aggressive? Is it something else that's still causing Yeah, that still continues to make alpine climbing so dangerous? Well, 

Jim: alpine climbings keep pushing harder and harder roots and, uh, alpine climbing is never gonna be totally safe. And I think I've always exercised good judgment.

And, but even, even if you exercise good judgment on a, on a route and when to go and when not to go, you still there, there's still factors up there that are going to create dangers that you can't mitigate. You can mitigate, but you can't eliminate. So to some extent, maybe I've had some luck too, you know, here's another thing. Uh, I first, my first offline climbs were in Patagonia, and then Alaska and Terra Forum. Well, but, uh, I've [00:47:00] always wanted the, well, for example, in Alaska, I've done a lot of, first since all around Denali. I've never stepped foot on Denali because to me, I wanted to do the technical crimes.

He, like the moose is too, uh, Mount Bradley, uh, the aspire, you know, I had no interest, uh, kicking steps in snow to get to the highest, highest point. So I, I, I remember when I, when I moved to Seattle to work for Patagonia as a regional sales rep and my wife at the time, uh, we ended up developing a bunch of friends and we go to parties and I'd be introduced as the climber, right?

So people go up to me and say, well. Have you called? How, how is Mount Rainier? I said Mount Rainier. I haven't climbed it. And uh, they, they would go, you haven't climbed it. I go, well, you know, I've only been here for here for a few years. You gotta work your way up to that. [00:48:00] Yeah. They'd look at me like, oh my God, what's wrong with this guy?

'cause they, they knew a guy, the next door neighbor was outta shape that who climbed it. Yeah. Never been. And I still, I've never climbed Mount Rain here. I had no interest. I'm more, yeah. So me, for me it's remote peaks, peaks to not, not o other people aren't on piece that takes some real work and technical ability to get to the top of.

So, uh, I like around, uh, Mount Fork or Mount Hunter, all those pieces are surrounding the Denali, but not Denali. 

Kush: And I for sure. And yeah, I mean, you've climbed all over Pakistan and, and even Nepal, but you have, I think you've not climbed, uh. Or no, 

Jim: or ever either. But you know, I was invited back in the seventies and eighties when people were just starting to do the 8,000 meter peak.

I was invited to a couple adverse expeditions, and, uh, I thought about 'em both times, said, no, I don't wanna do it. I, [00:49:00] yeah, I don't, I don't like taking sep in snow. It's boring. Sure. 

Kush: W what about, what about attempting, uh, maybe a new route on K two or Everest? Oh, okay. Which was away from, like, that would be different.

The traditional, 

Jim: now when I tell people that the, uh, all the eight, uh, 14 80,000 meter peaks, every one of them can be guided. And by, I mean, guided, guided peak climbers that aren't really climber because every one of 'em has a route that you can have the Sherpas or Port fix ropes the whole way. And, uh, even K two, which is probably the most difficult.

Also those big mountains have hard faces on 'em. Sure they do. And, but, uh, I don't know. I just didn't wanna, I guess I just never wanted to be around a lot of other people. Sure. Like Everest base camp, he is like a big zoo now. It's like a, I I I've always preferred to climb remote unknown peaks 

Kush: [00:50:00] yeah.

Jim, for sure, I mean, you are absolutely the best known for some of your remote climbing in distant parts of the world, but you started your career by spending significant amount of time Yeah. Honing your rock climbing skills and the more traditional. Climbing Mecca of Yosemite. Yeah.

Back in the day. And those must have been some very interesting times. 

Jim: That was a fabulous time. So I, when I went from the East coast, I went to the Tetons and I started climbing there. Then I realized after a while that, uh, the bottom line, the most important skill for technical climbing anywhere the, uh, alpine climbing is your rock climbing.

Everything [00:51:00] flows from there. If you have certain skills as rock climbing, you can pick up ice climbing right away. But, uh, so at that time, in the, this is in 1970, when I first went there, Yosemite was the Mecca. So I got to Yosemite at a great time. It was 1970. The golden age of the sixties was over where, you know, the golden Age met guys like Chenard and Prat and Robins were doing their first big walls.

I got there in 70 when the emphasis all of a sudden was on pushing the free climbing standards. And, uh, when I got there, I found out right away that I had a natural feeling for crack climbing. I, I picked it up very quickly. So, um, you know, can't afford was, it was totally different 

Kush: program. Yeah. Tell us about those days.

And you were maybe almost an outsider coming from the East coast and you were Yeah. You [00:52:00] hadn't risen up to the ranks. So how was that period of maybe getting acceptance and rising Okay. Through that, uh, and, you know, even, even building, building this partnership with people like, like Jim Bridwell? 

Jim: Yeah.

Well, Bridwell became a good bridwell, you know, the, uh, in the early seventies, uh, camp four was very clique-ish. People had a hard time breaking in and getting, I was a little bit older like I'd been in the army, you know, I had, uh, so it was no trouble for me. I, I don't know, I, I, I was accepted right away and I made a habit of my, after that, when I saw climbers coming for the first time, I would go out and welcome into Camp four and tell 'em about the better climbs to do and even take 'em climbing.

I always felt that that was important. And, uh, camp four, you know, I, I go back to you seven. I've been back there a number of times. It's just not just different [00:53:00] now. Such a zoo. Yeah. You know, can't afford, in the early seventies, there were rules and regulations, but they weren't of course that much. So there were people sleeping in their vans in the parking lot.

You did that. Now you, you, you'd be arrested so quickly. So we had, we, we, we just had, it was like. A whole lot of fun. Like, uh, my God is like the perfect playground. Sure. Life was easy, 

I developed a certain skills in the Tetons, but there's a limit. Uh, and then, so I, I really got my rock climbing skills developed in Yosemite that made me a real climber. So I was able to go to places like Patagonia, Alaska to Chikita and China.

You know, so that set me up. And, uh, I remember we were pushing the, uh, rock climbing sanders then. And, uh, this is, uh, before [00:54:00] camps. So every route I did Yosemite versus semi. I did, it was, uh, it was before 1976. So every climb I did was without cams. I remember one, I did a climb called Overhang Overpass, which, uh, I got up over a bulge that people have tried before and they hadn't made it.

I, so I'm up over the bulge and there's a green cam size crack, parallel sided, and it's overhanging. It is really steep. And I realized I only have nuts. This is way before cams. And the, uh, what cams, of course, you can just get row in real fast. So I realized I'm, I'm about 15 feet above my gear that I either have to go for it.

Hope it gets easier because I, I can't hang in long enough to get a nut working in a parallel crack or I jump off, I was too chicken shit to jump off, so I went for it and I went [00:55:00] 40 feet before I could stop and I made it. So, so then, so then, uh, a week later I, I really good. Dale Barter, really good young climber, tried it and he took a 70 foot liter fall.

He didn't make it because, but it was overhangs it, but uh, so it didn't get a second ascent until Cams came in, camps changed at all. But people ask me, they said, well, how did you feel about doing those climbs with the kind of primitive gear you had? And I said, what do you mean primitive gear? The gear that we had when we climbed was always the very best that was available.

Yeah. Now in the early days, nuts, Swami Belts, the, the very best that was available will be considered. Primitive by today's standards, but I never felt like I was disadvantaged by the year I had. I always felt I was privileged to have it. So you really can't miss what you don't. Which would That's right.

That's right. [00:56:00] Because it's, it's so funny, you know, I was telling you about, black Canyon being Yosemite with an attitude. You, there were no comfort ized belays. Yes. So I'm telling young climber that I said, you know, uh, you'll never find, uh, two nice bolt belay anchors waiting for you at the end of a pitch.

He said, well, how do I know when to stop? Well, okay, uh, have no answer for that. Time's getting, getting, I mean, honestly, 

Kush: honestly, you know, as, yeah, as funny as that question may on to you, I mean, that is really what 95% of people are looking for when they get to a. The end point of a pitch, or even the guidebooks, the way that they describe a climb with bolted anchors is yes.

You know, you go around, you, you complete this one crack. You grow on the corner, you get to the sledge, you look up and you're right. And they're the anchors. And that's how you 

Jim: Yeah. [00:57:00] Right.

Kush: Jim, you know, we talked about partnerships for a second here, and, uh, for sure. Partnerships and climbing are sacred. You, you know, even for like, let's say weekend trips or day long trips, it becomes so important to go with a person that is a, is not only a competent climber, is trustworthy as well.

Right. But then also somebody you can vibe with. You know, somebody you can laugh with. Oh yeah. Somebody you can appreciate the, the high moments and the down moments and you know, you've had some. Legendary partners and partnerships. So what makes in your, in your eyes, somebody a great partner? 

Jim: You know, I've only had great, I've been super lucky or maybe I've been able to judge the, but all the, uh, alpine climbing partners that have had been great, [00:58:00] you know, great Crouch and Jack Tackle and Jeff Lowe, George Lowe and John Bragg have always had really great partners.

And, uh, well, as I said before, they have to be people that are committed to get up a climb. They push as hard as they can, but know when to come down. But the other thing about alpine climbing, there's a lot of boredom because you go to a place like Patagonia, days on end, you can't climb. It's stormy. So you wanna have a partner that's fun to be around too.

Because if you're in a storm bound, in a tent in Patagonia for a week, you don't wanna look across the tent at this person. Say, I, you know, I'm growing to hate that guy. You want somebody that, that's fun that you can talk to, that that's a real friend. And I've always been lucky about and ending up with people like that.

But that's, that's critical. 

Kush: What about like, maybe some things that you look for, you know, you look for like these qualities, but what about some, [00:59:00] some other qualities where you decide, hey, this person was fine for this weekend, but I may not want to line with that person again?

Oh, yeah. 

Jim: Yeah. Well, you know, I've, uh, I worked as a guide in the Tetons for seven years. I, uh, I've taught a lot of, uh, crack climbing seminars in the, in, uh, uh, in the, uh, Indian Creek. And, uh, so, and I, I've always liked climbing with people and taking people, climbing. So I've climbed in my life with hundreds of different people.

But in alpine climbing of all the 40 expeditions over all those years, I can count my, my total number of alpine partners in the fingers of my hand, only about 10. All, all those years. So there's a difference between here, you're gonna climb up for a weekend or for a few days, or one day, and who you're gonna go to the mountains with for two months and suffer through deprivation.

[01:00:00] Fear, cold. There's, there's a total difference in the kind of people you need to climb with, 

Kush: Jim. Yeah. I mean, so many expeditions over the years. So many of them, but again, with a select group of partners. Maybe can you think back to a moment where you were so grateful for your partner on some climb? Yeah.

And you were like, you know, you know, this person completely saved the day because they were there with me. 

Jim: Yeah, yeah. You know, if you're two people on a climb, on a big alpine climb, 5,000 foot facing, you're only as good as your partner because your partner isn't up to what you're doing. You know, you both have to be at a cer a certain level, the same level, not only in, uh, [01:01:00] commitment, but in skillset too, and also in what you decide you wanna climb.

Some people are more ambitious about. For me, I, I've always only wanted to do first sense. I've never been interested in going in and doing, repeating a route I never have. And, um, not everybody's like that. Some people are just, they, they'd rather repeat a route 'cause they'd have information on it. Hey, it's gonna be great climbing.

We know. I, I'd rather go into the unknown and, uh, figure things out for myself. And so you need a, I need a, uh, a partner that feels the same way. They, they wanna explore, not just climb, but explore. Get, get, get to unknown places on a mountain. Figure out, uh, when you get to a, you know, another thing, I've never ever been nervous about a climb going into a, a big climb in the, uh, mountains.

One thing I learned in special forces, if you [01:02:00] really prepare hard, you train hard, you have a good team and everything, you get into a situation. You're not worried because you've done everything you can to, to uh, get ready for it. And, uh, I've always found that, um, you look at a mountain, you look at a route and you figure out how it's going to go.

You're always, you always run into surprises. You always get to a place you go, that's difficult. What are you? But then you're committed to decline. So you just deal with it. You just, you get up to a hard party, you know, you just deal. I have found that my level of commitment on a big alpine route is always higher than my level of commitment.

I'm just ragging. 'cause I'm up there and I, I want to keep going. I don't wanna have to go back down. So, uh, I, I tend to be a little more bold in those situations, which is [01:03:00] probably not, not a good idea because if you get hurt in the mountains. You know, you bring, you're on a one, uh, remote peak. That might be the end of you for sure.

Kush: Now, and it's almost like it's forced boldness. I mean, obviously you have all the preparation and the experience, but when you are up in those, those critical situations, you don't have a choice, you know? Right. 'cause of when in doubt, run it out.

Jim: I've had a, you know, uh, Greg Crouch was a really good partner for me. I reinvented myself in my fifties. I, um, I'm in Seattle and I'm married, and I have a couple of children. I'm working for Patagonia. And, uh, things started falling apart for me in the late eighties. Um, my, my marriage is falling apart. My beautiful daughter who would.[01:04:00] 

Been a straight A student who's all of a sudden running out in the streets at night, uh, doing drugs. And so I'm having, uh, my, I'm going through a difficult divorce and I have a really complex job with Patagonia. So it was all coming together and, uh, I, I didn't know how to deal handle it all. The only thing I could do, I couldn't deal, uh, there's only so much I could do in terms of my daughter or my divorce.

So the only thing I really could do was resign from Patagonia changed and I did. And it, uh, they were very generous with me. I worked for 'em for 10 years, so they gave me a year space severance package. And so I took that time to reinvent myself. I was in my early fifties and, uh, I, I moved out of Seattle back to the Colorado, Boulder, Colorado.

'cause I'm really not a maritime climate guy. And I got into cl uh, hard climate all, and I met some new partners. I went down to [01:05:00] Patagonia. Here I am in my mid fifties and I'm doing harder climbing than I ever had. I I met guys like Greg Crouch, who was, uh, 24 years younger than me, and he had been a graduate of West Point and I had been in Special Forces.

So we had a, a little camaraderie based on that, and we became great climbing. We, I had a three year period with Greg between Alaska and Patagonia, where we, for a three year period, we did six new routes and never, never failed. It was just, we just got really lucky with the weather. We had a perfect partnership.

And, uh, but Greg was really funny. He, uh, he used military, uh, jargon. So we had what we call medal of honor pitches. You know, we were, so, a lot of times when you're climbing in those, uh, alpine route, you wanna climb fast, you wanna keep your weight down. So a lot of times we wouldn't bring a five Camelot along.

Right. So a Medal of Honor pitch is climbing a [01:06:00] fifth, five inch crack with only four inch gear. Meaning you gotta go for it. You just run it out. And, uh, he could do that and I could do that, and that then that was an important thing too.

Kush: And maybe in Greg Crouch, you know, you guys found this unique combination of, uh, this past or this training from the Special forces, and so you, you, you understood each other in the special way that, uh, maybe other climbers did not because they did not have the same, the same pedigree, right? Yeah.

This, everybody preach a different background. Right. You know, you spoke about this difficult time in your life. You were going through some. Personal challenges and yes. I I wanted to ask about that time [01:07:00] because, because you have had this singular focus in your life, almost singular focus of, of, uh, maybe, maybe you should ask a selective focus. And you know, in your book, um, you talk about being able to almost block out the hard stuff when things start falling apart in order to keep moving forward. So when you look back, um, do you think some of those sacrifices you made for.

Would they 

Jim: I've had, yes. And, uh, when, uh, Jeff Powder contacted me a few years ago about doing this biography, I, I said, whoa, I, I, why would I do that? But then I thought about it for a while [01:08:00] and I got back in touch with him. I said, Jeff, uh, I'll do it only if we make it totally honest. I said, they, I sometimes have a problem with people who know a little bit about me.

They'll think, uh, okay. He, he lives in UA, Colorado. He has a house in Patagonia. He has a beautiful, wonderful wife. He, uh, travels all over the world. What a, what an IIC life. And I wanted to say to, uh, Jeff, I said, you know, to have that kind of adventuresome life, I had to make a lot of choices. Some of 'em maybe not so good.

It's not as easy as that. I've got a lot of tragedy in my life. It was tragedy that got me into climbing in the first place when I fell asleep at the wheel and my best friend was killed. I have my, uh, two wonderful children are both deceased and, uh, so I, it is been a difficult life. And then sometimes, you know, the one thing when I did the book with Jeff, [01:09:00] we spent a lot of time together.

He came down and we went to, uh, coachee stronghold time for a couple weeks, hung out. He came home and he spent a lot of time with me and Angelo, my wife. And, uh, when we started doing the book, I told him I would only do it. He was completely honest. Had the gray and dark shadow days along with the good days.

And, uh, so he, one of the things about, uh, Jeff is he is a really good, um, interviewer and he interviewed a lot of my friends, very, very, uh, uh, extensively. I learned a lot about, uh, myself and those who, those interviews. Also, he was a, uh, clinical psychologist by training. So he was, uh, it was very difficult for me to go through some of this stuff, but in the end it was very cathartic.

I'm glad I did. I understood, you know, I've made some decisions in my life that [01:10:00] maybe did, turned out not to be in the best in terms of, uh, people around me, but I always thought I was doing the right thing. And, uh, I just wanted a book to, uh, to say, okay, if you wanna live the kind of life I lived, you might wanna consider the sacrifices you, you have to make.

Kush: Thanks for sharing that right now, Jim. And thanks for also bearing that in the book as well. And as I was reading, I was thinking that. You know, climbing, just climbing is, is a, is a, uh, a unique sport just going rock climbing, like I'm mostly a rock climber. And that itself kinda, uh, requires some level of commitment because it is a high, higher maintenance sport than many others around us.

And then you get into the big mountains and you get into alpinism [01:11:00] and that the, the, the level of commitment and sacrifice required, they just increase manifold. And it seems like the life that you have lived is maybe in, in those ways, not dissimilar than other successful mountaineers of mm-hmm. Of our times.

Is it, is it possible, Jim, to craft a life as. A mountaineer without these kinds of life paradoxes. Like, I, I don't, I'm not even sure. Is there somebody out there who's had the kind of, or even close to the kind of career you've had, you think mm-hmm. Without, without having some of this complexity. 

Jim: You know, I, I've been lucky in, um, my third marriage, [01:12:00] third times in charge to, uh, Angela, we met, uh, I was doing a slideshow climbing slideshow down in Texas, and she came to it.

She had gotten into the rock climbing and she had been working for a number of years as a cancer researcher at MD Anderson, and she's been my partner all these years since then. And you know, it, she's been such a, especially as I've gotten older and things have gotten more difficult, she's been a, a tremendous help to me and.

I had two other marriages. One was very short. Um, in fact, uh, my friend, uh, my best friend Ross Johnson, oh, here's a, it's a funny story. We're, so I get out of the army and he gets out of the army. I get in the climbing and he lives in Minneapolis. And so, uh, after I went back to school and he said, come out for the summer.

My dad will get you a job. His father was [01:13:00] the phy physical plant director at the University of Minnesota. So I go out there and just, I'd get a construction laborers union job and make some decent money for the summer. And, uh, so I got into hanging out in Minnesota and I met this young blonde Norwegian girl, and, you know, and, and, uh, we were, it was at a party.

We were, it was only in my mid twenties. And I, I said to her, let's get married. And, uh. I was in the middle of the winter and she said, well, we'll have to go to South Dakota to get a quick marriage. I said, okay. And I grabbed Ross, my best buddy from the Army, my first climbing partner said, you're coming with me.

So all the way out to Sioux Falls, South Dakota, whenever he could, we'd stop and he'd go, Jim, you're crazy. Don't do this. It's not right for you. It's not right for Sandy. And, but I said, I'm doing it. And I did it. Well. Then three years later, uh, I realized I made a mistake. She was a wonderful woman, but it wasn't, we weren't right together.

And uh, [01:14:00] so we go to, remember we go to Scotland together. So Ross, myself, and Sandy, and another friend at the end of that, uh, time was and Sandy had fallen in love. And uh, they came up to me and he said, Jim, uh, well we gotta talk to you about something. I said, you're in love, right? And he said, yeah, well go for it.

Why did I bring that up Anyway, I don't know. But the life is com I guess. 'cause life is complex and any life is com more. One. One thing I have learned is every life is more complex than you can you, you look at somebody and, and you immediately say, good climber. This guy can tell good jokes. She's really fun.

You, you just kind of, you know, categorize them by certain qualities. But every one of those people you're looking at, their lives are much more complex than you can ever know. [01:15:00] And, uh, so I've been married three times, divorced twice, um, married very happily the third time. And life has been tough and I've lost both children from various reasons. And my twin brother died from her brain tumor after we got together again for. So every life has its dark moments and its bright moments. And that's what I wanted to bring out when this book was written.

When I agreed to do the Survivals, not a story with Jeff Powder, I said, let's, let's to, let's, let's really be candid. And, uh, a lot of people have read the book and they said, why did you let him say those things? I said, because they're true. That's the whole idea. I, uh, I was uncomfortable at first, but I said, I, you know, if you're, if you're, uh, not willing to share [01:16:00] the dark shadows of your life with, uh, the bright moments and you're, you're, you're phony, you know, you're not telling the whole story.

And it reminds me, I, I, I think sometimes having, going through this process with Jeff Powder. How can someone write an autobiography and make it very, totally. You're gonna have a hard time. You're gonna try and be honest, but a lot of the honesty in this book is not based on what I said, but on what my partners said that after being interviewed by Jeff.

So I learned a lot about myself and, uh, if I had written an autobiography, I would've tried to be honest with it. It wouldn't have been the same. 

Kush: That's a, that's such a excellent nuance that you point out. I never thought of that, but yes. I don't know what kind of tricks you have to deploy when writing and autobio to be able to be that revealing.

Because, you know, it's funny, I write in my journal and [01:17:00] even in my own journal that nobody else is, is, is permitted to read. It is so hard to be that truly candid. Right. And yeah, it is difficult. You know, Jim. You have spent huge chunks of your life in some of these remote, very different corners of the world, right?

Like cultures, which are just a world apart, places. So much time in Pakistan, so much time in Patagonia where you have another home. Yeah. Nepal and even Iran. And I would love to know, what have you learned about being immersed in those cultures and those peoples? Oh yeah. And, and, and like, you know, because they don't, [01:18:00] even if they're climbing over there, that is not their singular focus.

You know, it's a different like. Are there things from those cultures that have made a lasting impact on how you see the world? 

Jim: Yes. Yes. Okay. That, that, that's very true. And, uh, you know, my primary, uh, primaries of the Patagonia, Alaska, and the Kaur, and that's because of the, the, the, uh, climbing. They, they're both, all three of those areas are granite, gr.

So they really have a lot of technical hard climbing. But I've been, I've climbed a lot of other places like Iran and Tajikistan and China and all over. And one thing I've learned over the years is that the mountain people that I meet are wonderful. Every country I've been to, you get into the mountains, you get away and usually the mountain people, I go to Pakistan, they're very poor.

They live up in the mountains. They don't, and [01:19:00] uh, but they're wonderful. They're wonderful people. Every country I've been to, the jis, uh, the Iranians, when I go back in the mountains, uh, I've really come to love mountain people all over the world. And, uh, most of those, a lot of those people are from third world countries where, you know, life is hard, life is difficult, but they, they, they, they smile, they laugh.

They're ha you know, people are the same everywhere. People really wanna be happy, they wanna be able to provide for their families. They wanna be happy enough to, you know, it's, it's, it is not, it's not that difficult to see. But, uh, what I have found is that almost every country I've been to 60 countries and I'm climbing in about 40 of them.

And, uh, one thing I noticed is that the people I meet are generally speaking always better than their government, [01:20:00] better than me.

I mean, 

Kush: I'm sorry, but one doesn't have to go overseas to find that out. 

Jim: No. Well, yeah, things are a little difficult here right now. Say the least. Yeah, yeah. Uh, you know, I, I've never been interested in, when I go to these countries, I go to these remote areas. The two things I'm interested in are, are the wildlife and the people, the local people.

I'm not so interested. I remember we went to Iran. It was very, very, uh, scripted. You know, it was every day we had to be at a certain place. And we, uh, they took us down to, uh, uh, the town way down the desert for, uh, three days of visiting mosque and cultural sites. That's not me. I didn't enjoy that that much.

I'd rather be up in the mountains with the primitive people in the mountains that the, that are, that have [01:21:00] wonderful souls, wonderful hearts, and, uh, or that are away from the cities and the corruption of the governments. So, everywhere I've been in every country I've been, as I said before, when I get to the mountains, the people seem to be very similar.

Kush: Jim, I wanna, turn a conversation to the spot of the show, which I call being ageless. And Yes, you know, you spoke about, in some ways you have been blessed. Yeah. Maybe genetically luck, all, all these things coming into play and you've been able to continue this lifestyle and the sport for so long.

But every athlete hits the slowdown, you know, unfortunately, that just part of. Our evolution as humans. When did that moment arise for you, Jim, when you had to reckon with slowing down? 

Jim: You mean with the [01:22:00] erosion of skills and 

Kush: Yeah. Was there like a, like a definite, like, a, a specific time and you were like, oh, oh goodness, I am not as sharp and I'm not at my peak?

Jim: Well, yeah. You know, when I was 70, I did the nose in one push with George Lowe, and I only had a liter and a half of water when I was 75. I, you know, I was really still climbing five 11 and Indian Creek in the Black Canyon. And, uh, so I'm going along swimmingly and, you know, uh, because of these, uh, not having the joint issues and, and keeping the motivation.

So I was still. And then all of a sudden the wheels started falling off. That, that first time was when I started walking and feeling all out of balance and it was affecting my climbing in everyday life. Then I found out I had Parkinson's [01:23:00] and I started, I found the, uh, treatment program that really worked for me.

So that was under control. And then just six weeks ago, break my arm doing, uh, just easy exercises to find out, have lung cancer that metastasize to the bone. So, you know, uh, until that happened I was just swimming along, just enjoying life and, uh, knowing that, uh, you know, eventually my skills were, uh, my body was gonna start saying, well, you can't quite do that anymore.

But it didn't bother me too, 'cause I've always, uh, thought to me. If I can go out and do a really long, moderate climb, I'll have a good time doing that. It doesn't, uh, the number's not as important as the climb and the people I'm with. I noticed some climbers, uh, that I know that are still getting older, that they still have to push themselves really hard.

And if they, they can't climb [01:24:00] at the same number level that they were climbing, they started to feel bad. I, I never felt that way, but, uh, climbing was, uh, stayed easy for me for a long time, especially crack climbing. 'cause I developed such good technique. It didn't seem harder anymore. You know, I could do, when I was 75, I would do, uh, super crack with one piece of gear, that kind of thing.

That's ridiculous. But anyway, you know, but then things started kind of working the other way. You know, you get to a certain age, like 82. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm older than the, uh, life expect Superman and, uh. So, as I said, the wheels started falling off when I developed P Parkinson's disease and now cancer. But, you know, um, I thought for a while, in fact, about two weeks ago, I had a period, and my wife can tell you about it, about three days I was depressed.

I thought, oh my God, how am I gonna deal with all this? And then I [01:25:00] worked my way through that and I realized that it's just another challenge. I, I, I've had a life full lifetime full of challenges. This is just another challenge. So I'm looking forward right now to going up to this Salt Lake City with Angelo on Tuesday, going to the Huntsman Cancer Center, starting this new drug, seeing what happens.

Hopefully, um, hopefully that'll work. And hopefully my arm will heal well enough that I'll be rock climbing in a few months. Maybe not at a high level. That's not important for me. It's the movement, the movement and the place where you are, you know? If you're in a beautiful mountain area and you're just on a nice long five eight bridge, what can be better than that?

Kush: Yeah. Any and for sure. No, I mean, I think, I think it's, it's a gift to be able to clamp at all or just to be in those, in those environments. Yeah. But you know, it's true that [01:26:00] sometimes it becomes tough to reconcile with diminishing prowess, you know? 

Jim: Yeah. 

Kush: You know, from, let's say on onsite and five thirteens.

Yeah. Or, you know, to like being able to struggling or whatnot on, on lower grades. Any specific tactics that have helped you maintain that, uh, joy? 

Jim: Well, you know, well, I think about the way people, when I got into climbing. The, uh, mid sixties, it was fortunate that I, I just kinda stumbled upon it. Now there's climbing gyms everywhere, and, uh, actually that's made climbing more democratic because when I was starting in the, uh, late sixties, most climbing at that time was, uh, at the prestigious universities, the climbing clubs, like at the [01:27:00] Harvard and Dartmouth and Berkeley.

And now, uh, people in inner cities can get into climbing because of climbing gyms. But there's a, for me, the, uh, the, the first thing that attracted to is the body movement of climbing. How, how it made me feel good, you know, figuring out how to do this rock climb. But the main thing for me always has been the beauty of the mountains and the being able to go back in to areas where no one has ever been and do things that no one's ever done.

That doesn't diminish. Now, as I said in the, in the last number of years, I've done some first assistant of Patagonia Mountains that have never been climbed before because I'm in an area in Patagonia where there's no climbers. So they, they hadn't been climbing before. There's no ever tried them. But the some ways, most of them were more, the more difficult part was finding out how to get to them.

So to me, uh, it's climbings are very [01:28:00] important from the, uh, physical side, uh, but also from the exploratory side. There's more now, I think when people develop in the climbing from gyms, they're more into the athletic movement, you know, doing, getting a red, pointing a harder climb. That's 

Kush: true. 

Jim: Yeah. And, uh, that's important to me, but not the whole thing at all.

So, uh, now if I can still hike back into a mountain and do a first incentive, a peak, it's only five eight, but I'm the first person to be the one climb I did with, uh, uh, uh, in 2017 with, uh, tad McRay took me three times, uh, a multi-day tri first one with my wife Angela, to find out how to get to the mountain.

And then I had discovered how to get there. And Tad came down from guiding on from Kawa. And I already had the gear in. We had this wonderful time for coaching the mountain, doing this on nine pitch climb, maybe [01:29:00] five, 10. The, uh, one pitch, it wasn't the difficulty of the climb. It was a beautiful day. We were in a place no one's ever been before.

We're in a sun, no one's ever been on before. We are looking out at this vast interior of Patagonia, all these glaciers and un people, places where people would've never been. And at that day, a condor started circling around over us. So it's a combination of being with tat, being with nature, being in a place where never had, no one had ever been before, and yeah, having some physical climbing involved too.

So it was a combination, but not just one thing. I think that, uh, too many climbers today are, are really, uh, all about the numbers. How hard I 

Kush: Yeah, no, I, I love that answer, Jim. And I think I'll be thinking about that for a long time on maybe at that time, like this was not a specific strategy to seek out, uh, [01:30:00] unexplored terrain or, or new sense, but maybe in retrospect.

Yeah, that sounds like it was an important part of your, uh, let's say anti-aging arsenal of, of creeks, you know, that you could Yeah. You could go and get so much, uh, life out of. Being in those virgin places and that I can only imagine can be so deeply nourishing. Mm-hmm. Just some final questions, Jim, as we round out, climbing has been such a huge part of your life, but is there another side of you, another hobby, another, another thing that you do that also gives you, uh, joy on a regular basis?

Jim: Well, you know, yeah. Over, for a long time it was really just climbing and, but for me, climbing was [01:31:00] always a complex because I was going to areas that there very few people had ever been. So it was exploring, climbing. It was the partnerships, the people I was with, the travel, everything coming together. But as I've gotten older, I've, uh, gotten in, like in Patagonia, we have a little place down there.

I've gotten into pack rafting. Ah, and that's been a lot of fun fishing out of a pack raft and taking pack rafts down these, uh, rivers in Patagonia. That, and going into places no one's ever been before. And so, yeah. And, uh, I've always enjoyed, hiking in the mountains and doing road long hikes by myself, seeing how fast I could go and, and I guess I've always been competitive with myself, but, but now, you know, when I go to Patagonia, I, I spend a lot of time fishing outta my pack rack, and that's a, it's a lot of fun and it's something that an 80-year-old can do as well as a 20-year-old.

Sure. [01:32:00] 

Kush: What might be a piece of advice that you ignored when you were young? 

Jim: Oh, but 

Kush: you wish you hadn't? 

Jim: Well, that's, uh, that's a difficult question and, uh, that, uh, you know, I started, I got married, started a family, and, uh, I always felt that I was doing the best that I could. But then I, you know, now I realize that being a, not, not a sport climber, rock climber, you're just away for the weekend maybe, or for a day or two.

But getting into these serious alpine climbs in remote areas, I'd been gone for sometimes two or three months and realize now that, uh, what a, what a burden I was for my children, my wife at the time and my life. So, I don't know, it's, it's hard to say. Would I, if I look back at, uh, at it now, from the hindsight of experience [01:33:00] and looking back at things, if I would do anything different, um.

That's, that's the, uh, that's the problem if you, if you, uh, put more energy and more time into one aspect of your life than other aspects. Sure. And for me, for some reason, because of, as I said, because of, uh, I've always wanted to explore remote areas. So climbing, I guess, has become, became so important to me that I was willing to maybe allow other things not to work out so well.

I, I've always, uh, done, I've always provided for my family and I've always, uh, in terms of financial and I've all, and then in terms of when I'm around and work and playing with my children and doing things with them, but I did spend lots of time away from my family. [01:34:00] Not only that, but I got into the, uh, into the outdoor industry, became a sales rep.

So a lot of times when I'm home, I'm actually on the road seeing customers. So yeah, I, I made those decisions and I've had this adventuresome life and, but I've had this tragedy too. I don't know how, how I would do things differently. I do know that, uh, I always feel that no one ever makes, no one ever makes a bad decision.

Now, when I say that they know, never knowingly make a bad decision when you, you, okay? So you have a decision, you have to make it by your life. What you do is you take all the evidence, but it's, uh, together what's gonna be the, you know, the best decision to make. But it's not, that's the only part of it.

The other part is where you are at that time, emotionally. And so a lot of times you make these decisions that you think are the best they turn out. Maybe they weren't the best. But [01:35:00] that's beginning and assign. I don't know, life is, I, I think my lesson I've learned is that about myself and about everyone else's life is a lot more complicated than 

Kush: we, 

Jim: we like to think.

Kush: And it, it definitely doesn't get less complicated as one gets older and No, no. Especially when you're trying to get, you 

Jim: know, get your arm healed and then, uh, get away from metastatic lung cancer. How the hell do I get lung cancer? Never smoked, but yeah, 

Kush: I mean, that's 

Jim: ridiculous. 

Kush: Right. Jim, I can sense one thing about you, which is yes, you are a person of strong convictions, but you also seem open to, to change.

Like you embrace, you've embraced new climbing partners, new climbing styles. What's perhaps one thing you have changed your mind about [01:36:00] in the last several years? 

Jim: In terms of, uh, my climbing 

Kush: or my, the way just doesn't have to be. 

Jim: Well, of course, in the last 10 years, uh, my, uh,

what I consider to, to do it in climbing is gonna be a lot more, uh, moderate than I was thinking before. I'm not gonna try and do a Tory Ger or late talk one, but, uh, I, uh, I still enjoy like, uh, three or four, uh, three months ago when I spent seven days with George at the City of Rocks. I, I, you know, we had a great time and, uh, we weren't doing much hard climbing.

We were doing a bunch of moderate multi-pitch crimes, and so I, I still really enjoy, uh, going on, you know, multi-day trips like that. With good people that I have, uh, simpatico with, that are friends like George or Great Crouch or my [01:37:00] wife or people. So what, what I, I'm not, no longer in the last 10 years, I'm not trying to, like, I went to the, uh, with Toma Huber to, uh, Huber Base camp of uh, uh, the C choc glacier vest.

But I had no intentions of climbing. I just wanted to hang out and give him. So, yeah, I don't know. I still like doing the same thing. I like travel. I like going to remote area. My, my life would be complete right now if I saw a snow lion, for example, 

Kush: that, that, that, hey, yours and mine, both a snow. Snow lion would be, or a snow, yeah, a snow leopard maybe up in the upper reaches of the Himalaya, you've had the span of climbing partners, Jim, you know, you've climbed, you climb with people your age, but you also climb with others who could be [01:38:00] maybe even your grandkids, you know, like really young climbers.

So what does one thing that younger, newer climbers can teach the older generation? 



Jim: I found in the last 30 years especially that I really enjoyed mentoring climbers. I really enjoyed going out with, uh, young, enthusiastic climbers and just climbing with them and showing us some tricks. And that's really, uh, that's important to me.

And, uh, look at my partners over the last number years. Uh, Greg Crouch, 24 years younger. Uh, Todd McRay, 42 years younger. Uh, Tom Engelberg, 18 years younger. You know, it, it's, well mainly I, I am getting younger climbers now because, uh, guys my age don't wanna do it. But that's more than that. I really [01:39:00] enjoy, like, for example, when I climbed with Tad McRay and I, I see myself in tad 40 years ago.

Uh, so it, it is really, uh, yeah. One, one of the good things about climbing is that, uh, most people you meet who are climbers are the kinds of people you wanna be around. Like, I don't think I'd be very, I'd have very much fun hanging around a crowd of people that their idea of fun is going out and spending all day on the a TV on the dirt road.

So climbers are, are climbers, you know, a certain, uh, type of person gets really into it. And, uh, I find them simpatico with those people. 

Kush: What makes, uh, what makes interesting point, what makes just, uh, climbers more interesting to hang around with than some other kind of, uh, [01:40:00] outdoor sport enthusiast? Uh, 

Jim: well, that's a difficult one.

I think may, I guess I'd have to say. It is because, uh, they're doing something I love and like, you know, kayakers or mountain bikers or they're one, I see some of the things those guys do now in Jesus, it looks crazy. But, uh, or pace jumpers or wingsuit? Uh, I think that I, I, I have a, I would have a lot in common with them from the, uh, point of view that they're pushing their limits and they're, uh, doing stuff that's, uh, you know, a little crazy maybe.

But, but, uh, one thing I've done with my climbing is, is I, a lot of people get into a lot of other things. It was well as climbing. I haven't done that. I, it became sort of the thing for me, which was both good and bad. It was probably good for what I accomplished, but [01:41:00] probably missed out on a lot by not doing some of these other things.

But. But I think that people get into adventure sports in general, all have some common bond or some common traits that make it easier for them to be together and, uh, strike up friendships right away. 'cause you have just certain ideas about life and certain ideas, uh, that are in common. And so it makes you easier for, you know, uh, uh,

Kush: I I have to completely agree. No, you are, uh, you are preaching to the court. I mean, because on the show, I, I think I bring together these unifying qualities because I, I interview. Outstanding athletes from Yeah. Different sports, the world of adventure sports, you know, all the ones you spoke about. And I do find that it's, it's fascinating.

Like I maybe, I don't know, maybe the, maybe the one [01:42:00] thing that's common in them is, uh, maybe the human powered sports, even though yes, we do need our, our cars and a plane to take us to those places, but the, but whether you're a kayaker or a man biker or a, or an ultra runner or a climber, like you kind of are doing that mm-hmm.

With your own, uh, physical abilities. And I, I do think that there's a lot that is, I think that is one thing in common. The other thing I find is that they're like really high maintenance board. Yeah. And they, they require a kind of commitment, 

Jim: right. 

Kush: That also maybe bonds them together, because you can go on a big kayaking expedition, you know, down the zanskar or.

Somewhere in Chile, you know, without really investing your whole self. 

Jim: Yeah. 

Kush: Into the, into the activity. Um, last couple of questions, Jim. [01:43:00] You have been climbing for over six decades. Yeah. But is there maybe one thing that you still get nervous about, which still gives you maybe the, uh, you know, the, the butterflies at the beginning of a climbing day, but bus you mean?

Uh, 

Jim: yeah. Um, oh, okay. I remember. Okay. It was climbing Yosemite and, uh, I was ne I was never really interested in, uh, big wall climbing because I thought I was too slow. But I did a few, I did the, uh, first I did the nose and with Peter makes from England. And, and then I, the first, uh, big wall I did was a south a wall.

That was way back when I did it with a guy, Steve Arsenals from back East and he'd been in the Army too, been in Vietnam and, and had some shrapnel in his. But anyway, so we went up on the South Bay wall and I was [01:44:00] more the free climber. He was more the egg climber. So we decided there were certain pitches I would do and, and certain pitches he would do.

And uh, I, I remember I had read about Leighton Core, who I thought was this incredible climber that had done the south a wall. And he got up to a pitch called The Ear that's kind of a Bombay Chiney. Not even very hard. And I read that Layton Core freaked out in the year and it's about 17 pitches up. So I know the year is going to be, the year is gonna be my pitch 'cause it's pre climbing pitch and not well protected.

So all the way up, I'm looking up, I can see the damn pitch, and I'm thinking, I, I had a little butteries, oh my God, blame Corps freaked out in the year. Well, blah, blah, blah. And, and I got there. It was anti-climatic. It was simple, you know. But anyway, whole time I was worried about, and that, that's actually one of the reasons I really liked First Ascent, because you don't know about a pitch that someone had a hard time [01:45:00] with of, uh, maybe 20 pitches of you're not thinking about it all the way you're, when you get pitches like that, when you're, uh, doing a purchase, then you run into 'em and you just deal with them.

You're already, yeah. You're not anticipating all the way, you know, for two days, oh, what do I do when I get there? So, 

Kush: no, I think that's such a, such a good point. Uh, Jim, because you know, even on, yeah. These days because we have so much information on our fingertips, 

Jim: God.

Jim, 

Kush: final question. If there was a billboard on the side of a highway, maybe in, or Yeah. Somewhere, somewhere near you and you could leave any message on that billboard for people, what would it say? 

Jim: You mean about climbing? 

Kush: About life? [01:46:00] 

Jim: Okay. It would say that in climbing and in life, the very most important thing you can do is get a good partner.

Kush: Ah, 

Jim: That's certainly true in life. I've got a good partner now in Angela, and uh, it's certainly very true in climbing, as I've mentioned many times. Yes, yes, yes 

Kush: indeed, Jim. That is such fitting advice. Yeah. Partnerships are everything. Indeed. Thank you so much. So appreciate you making the time today.

Oh, to come on the show. All the very best for, uh, the next few weeks. I know they're gonna be, uh, critical. 

Jim: Just a, just another little, little, uh, problem to deal with.