Aging Is Leverage: Best of 2025 (I):

Best of 2025
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[00:00:00] 

Kush: this clip comes from a conversation with Raab. Ray is a professional explorer who's crossed deserts and polar regions for living, but this moment isn't about expeditions. . It's about the period before and during his cancer treatment when he found himself asking whether what he was feeling was aging or something more.

What you will hear is Ray describing the choices he made during chemotherapy to keep moving and to stay connected to his body and his life. We explore this in much more depth in the poll episode. Here is my chat with Ray.

where are you with your, cancer journey 

Ray: a rare form of which of call it lymphoma, which is a blood cancer and I It reared its ugly head for me in 2020. I was training for an expedition adventure. I was like, not feeling [00:01:00] myself. And as a matter of fact, for a while, I was starting to feel like I was I don't want to say degrading, but I was like, not at my peak anymore.

And I thought, am I just getting old? I'm 55 years old. So maybe, that age is part of it. And, but then my wife was like, no, something's not right. there's something wrong. And story short. Through a series of tests and over the course of six months, they were able to determine, it took them a while to figure out what I had, this cancer that I had that basically, was in my bone marrow was preventing my body from creating healthy red blood cells. My protein levels in my blood were extremely high, dangerously high levels of protein in my blood. And so it was affecting my ability to function, create healthy cells. Everything. And so I would have to go into six months of intensive chemo and monoclonal therapy in order to, beat this thing down into remission. Punchline is I feel great, better than I have in years. I, at the trails, I've tons of single [00:02:00] track right behind my place where we live. setting times on those trails that I haven't done in 10, 15 years. I'm in amazing shape right now and I've got all kinds of expeditions on the go.

But during that six month process. going through chemo. I was allergic to the monoclonal therapy. So I would get really sick. And the way it would work is I'd have two days of monoclonal and chemotherapy. Then I would have 25 days off. Then I would go in for the next session and it would repeat itself like that for six months. And I made a decision. I thought to myself, I've earned the right to sit on the couch, binge Netflix, eat a bag of chips for the next six months and get ready for chemo and do it again. But I decided, no, you know what? I want to get myself in the best shape I can. I want to tackle this thing head on. Every month I want to come out of it and try to feel less shitty. month than I do the previous month that I've gone into the chemo. So I made a goal that I was, I, so I do two, two days of treatment. I come home and I'd be sick on the [00:03:00] couch. then a couple of days and my wife would get me up. I'd start moving.

I'd go for a walk. I'd start out with a 500 meter walk. And that was my first day of training. And I'd start all over again and I'd get myself back up. to a point that I was feeling really fit and I would go somewhere in the world and I would do something with the approval of my doctors and all that stuff safely.

Kush: I would go and do something epic I did trips all over the place, all kinds of stuff. And I did this, I repeated this process every six or every month for six months in order to be in the best shape I could. to tackle the next rounds of chemo, but also to mentally prove to myself that I can overcome it. And then I would come out of this thing at the other end and be stronger than ever. And that's where I am now. And you know what? I'm in remission. And guess what? I never think about it coming back. I don't worry about it because it's too much good stuff. Cancer has taught me that there are too many great things that happen each day in our lives. The day you, the best day you have is the one that [00:04:00] you're six feet up and you're not six feet under. like you just gotta try and, experience is different. But you just gotta try and find something in that day. It's positive, Yeah. Yeah, every day being alive and healthy is a gift and some of us have been learning that in a more challenging way than others. But your, your story of or your experience of taking that step with fighting and trying to,Trying to recover your health by going out and exercising and staying fit is maybe such a valuable lesson for us.

But I can only imagine Ray, I don't know enough about cancer, but I believe that chemotherapy is traumatic physically and mentally. And I'm guessing, you have your round of chemo and then you wake up the next day and you're feeling fairly brutalized. [00:05:00] And.

Ray: dog.

Kush: and then you decide, Hey, you know what?

I want to make a choice here. I can do Netflix or I can, find my running shoes and go out.

It seems to me that just both this attitude that you had, which is,this attitude allowed you to go and exercise, which changed. Also, your mindset and your positivity I think it might have actually helped in your efforts to fight cancer. So tell us about maybe you went to your doctors, for your next round and they're like, Oh my goodness, you, somebody who's going through this this stuff, Regimen.

You seem that much more alive and positive. so tell us like whether this approach you had has been,a huge catalyst in helping, keep the disease at bay.

Ray: Yeah, look at I, I believe that the, and I've said this [00:06:00] before too, greatest challenges we face in life are 90 percent mental. The other 10 percent is all in our heads, right? it's our outlook and it's the way we perceive things is in a large part of our reality, right? there were, I would go in for chemo and there were like, I, I'm in Canada, so in different medical system, but I'm in Canada, I'm in this huge waiting room. these people that are getting chemo for all kinds of various cancers, right? And I go in, I'm waiting my turn, I got like the same number you get at the deli.

Think, you take your, you get your, and I'm waiting for my number, I'm looking up at the screen, and I'm looking around me, there's all these people that I'm thinking that person is not going to be alive in another week or two that person I could have had it a hell of a

Kush: Wow.

Ray: and it dawned on me one of those You know meeting rooms room visits that it can always be worse. It can always be [00:07:00] worse you've got to tackle these things. You've got to go at it. Now, there's nothing wrong with has their individual interpretation of the life they're living and what they're going through. That's the way it is. It's relative. Just like I said, the great things are relative to us as individuals.

So are the most difficult things that we will do in our lives, challenges we will face, health issues, et cetera, are relative to us as individuals. You cannot compare yourself to anyone else. So these are only my own personal experiences. I certainly learned through the process of chemo and going through the cancer, that once again, it's solidified in my mind that we are capable of a lot more than we think we are.

Kush: This next clip is from a conversation with Lisa Smith. Batchen. Lisa is an ultra endurance runner, best known for taking on some of the hardest. Racism in the world, including the bad water quad, four consecutive [00:08:00] ultra marathons through extreme heat and elevation. What makes this episode stand out wasn't the scale of what she's done.

It was how deliberately she thinks about suffering. Lisa thinks about hardship not as something to avoid and not has something to romanticize, but as something you choose carefully because it teaches you who you are and. It teaches you who you are when things get uncomfortable in the full conversation.

We talk about aging restraint and why continuing to challenge yourself doesn't have to meet mean going harder. It can mean going deeper. You can find the full episode with Lisa. It's in the early part of 2025.

heard you being, described or maybe self described as a peaceful warrior.

And I find that, [00:09:00] phrase so compelling. so yeah, is that true? I, do you call yourself a peaceful warrior?

Lisa: I think I became a peaceful warrior. I don't think that I started out as one. I think it's a, it's a growth process of, I feel like I did the Bad Water Quad. know if you know that is, you know, back and forth times across Death Valley. And I felt such a transformation in my own life and in myself where I gained such great wisdom, where peace was truly, I felt like I was being a warrior?

because it was a very difficult and very challenging, event myself to do. But I also immense peace with just moving methodically and the learning, the wisdom, and it ultimately [00:10:00] comes down to love, right? That's, that's ultimately what. feel life is about and longevity. They kind of go together. Love and longevity, longevity and love. So yeah, I feel like I grew into a peaceful, being very peaceful person and trying to spread, you know, peace and hope and love.

And it's, it's, definitely a learned, it's a learned traits. that you, anyone can gather and experience. For me, it came through endurance being on my feet and time, with myself. I just, I call it like, you know, the greatest self discovery of one's true self. 

Kush: Wow. Yeah, no, that term, it's, it [00:11:00] suggests like calmness, but then also like strength. So It's this duality that I've, I love. So it came about over your learnings and maybe it struck home after you completed this, let's say mythical crossing this race, you know, which is, uh, yeah, maybe for a second, uh, describe to us these, uh, this, uh, this, I don't know, this history making run that you did, and then how did this 

run, then eventually lead to you learning this about yourself.

Lisa: Well, it wasn't a race. I call these like, you know, journeys of self discovery. Really, I don't race anymore. I haven't raced for quite a while. I feel like I did enough racing and it became where [00:12:00] I just love to create and do my own. you know, I'd certainly admire and appreciate all anybody who does want to race because it is so worth it for sure.

I'm not putting that past. and you know, don't say that I had said you shouldn't race. but the Badwater Quad was definitely one of the hardest, physical things I ever did myself where it, you start at the lowest point Death Valley, which is minus 282 feet below sea level. You travel on foot across Death Valley to the summit of Mount Whitney, which is 146 miles. And so Mount Whitney is over 14, 000 feet. And you go from the lowest to the highest, the highest to the lowest, and then you repeat it again. And that I'm still the only woman who's ever, you know, done it [00:13:00] or finished it or accomplished it. I'm really of that. just because I know how hard it was. it was really, really hard and I hope other women get out there and do it. I know one has tried and almost and, you know, we can try. It doesn't matter what your age is. You might go a little slower, but who cares, right? So during that whole process, it was over 10 days, like 11 days. You just beat, you know, every obstacle known in your path from sandstorms to heat and darkness and hallucinations and just so much that you go through as a personal choice. You know, yeah, you're suffering, but that's by choice. You know, I'm not suffering, like somebody who's very sick. I'm suffering at my own choice, my own will. you really [00:14:00] learn to dig deep on how going to improve that. How are you going to improve that for yourself and keep going? of the learning to embrace your pain or your to continue really comes from within. And you have to find a way dig deep to allow that to happen. 

Kush: Lisa, let's say almost 600 miles from like the lowest points to the highest points of the U. S. They seem, let's say, unfathomable to a lot of us, including me, who is not a runner.

I'm going to be a devil's advocate for a second here and ask you like a slightly contrarian question, which is [00:15:00] in this world we live in, there is, again, there is suffering widespread, undesired suffering at a huge scale, right? All kinds of suffering that, that is out there that people want to get out of.

The suffering that you went through was self inflicted. So what is the point of that?

Lisa: The point of it, that's a very good question. The point of it is truly to embrace one's self. You know, really, you're learning so much about yourself and about life and about other people and your surroundings and obstacles that are thrown in your path and how to work through them. I feel like it's helped me. Immensely in other areas of my life, realizing that we're so much stronger [00:16:00] think we are. We're so much more capable than we think we are. We're all like big balls of clay can be, be molded. I mean, you can be molded one way or the other. way that you're molding your big ball of clay yourself is up to you. I feel like it's when I've, you know, write my books, it's when I do all these things. I haven't written any books yet, but I've certainly written them in my head, in my mind. the, the, the core of challenging ourselves, I think that we are all meant to do that. And it doesn't have to be physically. It does not have to be a physical challenge.

There are all kinds of ways to challenge yourself through. through sewing or you know there's whatever it is that you choose to challenge yourself to do. I want to read a hundred books in a year or whatever it is. I mean put [00:17:00] your whole self into it and hold yourself accountable because the only person that you're is you. You know, you make your decision. I made my decision that that's what I wanted to do for that. you I did it, I, I raised money for, clean water wells, the, I called it a project. You know, bad water for good water. the, when I put a purpose behind it with some passion. there's always a greater sense of the suffering changes. When I think of somebody who's holding a glass of dirty brown water and that's all they have to drink, that, that?

breaks my heart. I can do something with my being an athlete to help others, that's helps the suffering because they're suffering a whole lot worse than I am. [00:18:00] Mine's temporary. At the end of the 11 days, I got to sit down and suffering is, is gone. It's gone because not only you work through it, sure, you might be sore and your feet might hurt and you might be tired, but at the end of the day, you're, you're sleeping on a bed and eating good food and drinking clean water. And it, really kind of put it in perspective to me. I'll just tell you one, when I did the last mile, okay, I had one mile left to go and it was exhausting. I wasn't ready to finish. I wanted to keep going. I wanted to keep going because I thought like, geez, I felt so at peace with like just moving on my feet. My good friend, Vincent, who was on my crew. brought me a bottle of water and said, I think this, that this'll be enough to get you to the finish. [00:19:00] I mean, it's 125 degrees and 

Kush: Oh,

Lisa: go by yourself. You're going downhill Badwater Basin minus 282, you know, feet. And I'm so emotional, very, and we had just found out that somebody had died out there in Death Valley walking out into the desert because he didn't have enough water. So here I am walking with 

Kush: wow.

Lisa: moving to the finish of this 586 miles, thinking that this bottle of water was my lifeline. This bottle of water, the, the whole process, the whole sense of all of it came down to that bottle of water and the gift of clean water. if I didn't have that water, [00:20:00] you know, there's no way I could have done what I did. So it's just like sensible, like thinking like, wow, this piece came over me of how fortunate we are have clean water. and that bottle of water could have saved that guy's life. It was very, it's, I know it's hard to understand, but it was so emotional for me to think of like those, putting that all together.

Kush: For this clip, we move into a completely different medium. The ocean. This clip comes from a conversation with crisp burish, crisp burish, paddled, solo and unsupported across the Atlantic Ocean for 93 days. What stood out in the episode was beyond just the scale of that journey, it was how methodical and intentional Chris is about fear, preparation and belief, [00:21:00] especially as he's gotten older.

In the script, you will hear him talk about pushing off a alone with no safety net and what it actually takes to keep going when survival becomes the daily task. The full episode goes much deeper into visualization, restraint, aging, and how experience changes the way we take risks. Here we go with Chris Burish.

I would love to spend a minute on the trance Atlantic paddle. And, uh, perhaps you can take us into day one.

Chris: Okay.

Kush: So, so what was going through your mind as you pushed off the coast of Morocco? 

Chris: 

When I started that journey, I was in Morocco, we had run out of money for the project because of the conditions were really difficult. so I couldn't leave because there were storms that were [00:22:00] hitting the Moroccan coast line. So we would have been there for a month. The craft had been sent to the wrong country.

Then it got sent somewhere else. we still have no idea why it got sent to another country. Cause like literally that shouldn't be possible because on the bill of lading, it got on the ship, it got. said that it was meant to be going to, this one location in Morocco, but it somehow I did, and it sort of derailed the whole project, and it was almost like there was someone trying to sabotage the entire project starting, hence the reason why I was actually on the dock by myself, my team had flown home. I told that if I didn't leave that morning, I was going to get put in jail because my visa had expired. there was no one on the dock because I couldn't tell anyone where I was leaving from, because we had a whole lot of issues with, safety and security of myself for me starting the expedition, it was like someone was trying to stop me from forward with it.

So I couldn't tell anyone where I was. So I left. On that dock, from [00:23:00] that dock, completely alone at five o'clock in the morning, no friends, no family, no team, no one on the dock. and to push out in the pitch black.

Kush: Wow. So definitely no send off party. 

Chris: yeah, I was my own send off party. And when you're doing something like that, a foreign country with no one else around, no support, no team, nothing. It was the most terrifying moment of my entire life to do something, to push off in the sheer blackness out into the Atlantic, to do something that everyone told you impossible. And another guy that had tried six months before me that had only lasted 30, not even 18 hours before to get rescued by the Coast Guard. it was Yeah, it was incredibly poignant and testing physically, mentally, and emotionally for me and how you push through your fears and adversity and keep yourself in a positive [00:24:00] mental framework when you're Everything around you is telling you not to go, but you have to override that and still proceed forward and just take that first stroke and that first paddle stroke and push through your fears. there's an amazing quote that I heard somewhere quite recently that says that is only, it's a mile wide, but it's only an inch deep. And I think it's a beautiful quote and terminology for framing fear in a positive way. you've just got to just dive right in and you've got to go ahead first into it.

And when you do that, it's never, once you move through that first initial state, you know that you can overcome it, but you've got to, you've got to take that leap when everything's telling you not to. And I've been very fortunate that I've learned those lessons through Big Wave Surfing that I've applied through all other areas of my life as well, is that [00:25:00] fear Is debilitating for most people, but I've learned that fear is actually one of the greatest tools be able to help you enhance yourself and overcome great adversity.

And also your greatest version of yourself lies beyond your fears. So every time you have fear that is trying to misguide you to not move forward 99. 9 percent of the time, that actually should be the point that actually drives you to continue forward through the obstacle and the challenge that is ahead of you that you're facing because that's actually the path.

So this famous quote by the Stoics that says whatever stands in your way becomes the way is actually a the greatest line that will help direct you on your path to discovering your greatest self, because it is when you have an obstacle and a challenge and adversity [00:26:00] or a goal in front of you that seems terrifying, that actually should remind you that you're on the right path and that you need to keep on moving forward through challenge because yeah, whatever stands in the way becomes the way.

Be the bison, as I say. The bison is the only animal that actually runs towards a storm.

Did you know that?

Kush: Sure. Yeah. you, yeah, no, I, I think I read about the bison, maybe even I was researching, your book and your story. So just, you know, putting a pin on that, on that journey. Yeah. Pushing off the coast of Morocco by yourself after having faced incredible hurdles just seems so overwhelming.

Not only did you not survive the first 18 hours, you went on to complete this historic battle. And I [00:27:00] feel like ordinary person, you know, they, they're here 93 days and alone at sea. And they, I think they don't actually grasp what that means. So maybe you can describe a typical day.

What did survival look like?

Chris: Well, survival is different almost every single day. the first three, three to five days of that journey were horrendous. everything you can imagine. Could possibly go wrong, went wrong and a whole lot more. even though I had a backup of a backup, I had wind instrument stopped working, my autopilot stopped working, my watermaker stopped working, my, all my solar systems went down. and then I was paddling between 12 and 15 hours a day. So the only way I can put that into perspective for most normal human beings, it's like doing a full Ironman every single day. without having the luxury of being able to, change your muscle groups to other sports, and also being able to [00:28:00] then refuel after you've done your full Ironman for the day to go home and then eat all the stuff that you want to eat to refuel and then rest for whatever, nine to whatever, eight, seven to 12 hours after doing a full Ironman, that every day on freeze dried food and not enough on three to four liters of water a day, where I should have been on six to ten liters of water a day, and then not having more than an hour and a half to three hours sleep and doing that every day for, 93 days.

But most people talk about 93 days and they're like, Oh, okay. 93 days. It's not too bad because you just at night, then you go home and you turn off the lights and you jump into bed like you normally would. And you wake up the following morning, 18, whatever, seven to nine hours later. I never had more than an hour and a half sleep. two two stints of probably 45 minutes at a time. And I didn't have enough food to be able to replenish what I was putting that I was taking out of my body [00:29:00] every day. And in the first three to five days, I realized that even when I was not paddling, there was actually a current that was taking me back onto land.

So the only solution I had to not get shipwrecked on the coastline was to on paddling. So I ended up paddling between 20 and 22 hours a day. Okay. and then not sleeping pretty much. So it's just, I didn't get shipwrecked down the coast. Cause there was no one that was going to be able to help me or support me.

There was no team, there was no friends, there was no family, there's no coast guard, there's no one that you could call. So if I got shipwrecked down there, that was it, game over for me. so only solution I had was to not sleep and get enough further away from the coastline so I didn't get shipwrecked down the coast. And that was in the first five days. And then after that, I was pretty. Impressed and happy with myself that I hadn't died yet. So I sent out a message to say, well, if I can get through the last five days, then I can get through anything. And I pushed send, managed to get a signal. And when I sent that mail, what I [00:30:00] didn't realize what I sent out to social media was that the incoming email. Information that I got back was the weather forecast, which was that I was just about to get hit by probably the biggest storm of the entire journey, which most people don't really understand when you're on a craft. That's only not even a meter wide and this much above the water. You got water coming over you all the time.

I got hit by, I don't know, 10, 15 foot wave that hit me from the side that knocked me off the craft. Just before dark that evening, thank goodness, my emergency tether engaged on the drag behind the craft, underneath the water for a couple of, 30 seconds before the craft slowed down and I pulled myself back up onto the deck. And then I realized it was too dangerous to be out on the deck in those conditions because if I got separated from my craft for more than like three and a half seconds or four seconds, if my snapped, my percentage ratio of survival wasn't like 50 percent or 20%, it was. instantly game over because my craft would drift away from me faster than I could [00:31:00] swim.

So don't get separated from your craft. Otherwise you're dead pretty much instantly. And that night was probably the most intense storm I've ever endured any on any journey. I had 68 meter waves. I had 50 to 65 knots of wind, getting semi turned upside down in the middle of a storm in the middle of the night sounded like my little capsule was getting disintegrating around me and my capsule was only as wide as my shoulders and not as long as I can, as I'm long, so I couldn't really sleep and I was getting knocked around inside trying to, know, make water on with a little boiling hot little lit stove to be able to make freeze dried food.

So you can, yeah, it was just a plethora of different challenges that hit me during that night. And then I've deployed the parachute anchor to be able to stabilize myself in the conditions. then I had this creature that got stuck in the craft, in the parachute anchor that started dragging me through the top of these waves, into [00:32:00] and through these, Crazy conditions.

And then I realized that I either had a whale or giant squid that was stuck in the parachute anchor, dragging me and my craft down through these giant waves. I had to try and release myself as I cut the line, then I got caught inside the line, and the craft rolled with me attached to it in the middle of the storm, in the middle of the night.

Kush: Next we have Travis Macy, 

a lifelong endurance athlete. This episode wasn't really about racing or results. It was about what happens when performance is no longer the center of the story. In recent years, Travis has been navigating his father's Alzheimer's diagnosis and rethinking what strength, success, and presence actually mean in that context.

What makes this clip important is the way he talks about continuing to move, train, and compete as a way to stay connected. The full episode explores legacy and how [00:33:00] our relationship with effort changes as life asks different things of us.



Travis: I love the, Being Mortal by Atul Gawande. Are you familiar with that book? 

Or, 

kush_1_01-21-2025_130127: I haven't read, I haven't read that book yet. I know of, 

Travis: an 

kush_1_01-21-2025_130127: I know of his books. Yes. Okay.

Travis: his main theme is that idea of like, you know, You know, in addition to longevity, quantity of life, like, let's emphasize quality and especially towards, towards the end or with, you know, with something like Alzheimer's or with a terminal illness or something, you know, let's try to be, be clear or, or, you know, for those of us who have aging parents, like what conversations do we need to have? you know, And that's interesting to say, because, you know, at this point, like having any hypothetical or conversation with my dad, I mean, that's the possibility of that is long gone, now it's just doing it. But yes, back to your question has being active outside. [00:34:00] enhanced his health span. I mean, hell yeah. Like that's number one is human connection. And number two is moving outside. And those things, you know, there's, of course we don't know, you know, had we not put emphasis on those things, where would the Alzheimer's progression be at? Like, there's no way you can know, you know, I am very certain that, that, you know, wherever he's at, He's doing a whole lot better physically and psychologically of, again, number one, the human connection and number two, being outside and moving.

And, and, you know, basically it's like, at least for us over the last, you know, six plus years, been a constant, like, Push up against the boundaries of what's capable. Push, push, push. And we saw in Fiji, like, man, we, we pushed that boundary and we got, right to the limit. And, you know, luckily no one, no one got hurt.

No one, you know, [00:35:00] I don't think it was irresponsible to go out and do that race. I could imagine someone, someone with Alzheimer's is doing this. Like, that's crazy. Like, that's, you know, that's not responsible. You know, maybe that's not in their mind, but with me, with my two teammates, with the structure of the race, the safety infrastructure, that felt like an acceptable risk to do something really important that we would never do again. And we've kept doing that. We've kept pushing. that boundary, Kush, you know, and, and it was, it was first he was doing ultra runs, you know, and for a long period of time, it was dad being out doing his own training, riding the mountain bike, running, trekking, you know, and those things have disappeared by step.

Like I had to steal my dad's bike. Kush I had to like, you know. It became apparent that physically he could still ride a bike, but he could not stay on the side of the road and it wasn't safe. And [00:36:00] like, I culminated a visit to my parents house by taking his bike. And Like, I'm still sad about that. and was the right choice, you know, so he kept running. He kept trucking. He kept going out up until about three months ago. He was going out alone. One little spot next to little little rural dirt roads. Not much traffic. Dad could go out and he'd go up and down this hill. 

kush_1_01-21-2025_130127: Yeah. 

Travis: And like, 

what did the, you know, to your 

question, what did that provide? Like, that provides everything. It's like structure to the day. It's purpose. It's excitement. It's routine. It's movement. It's fitness. It's, you know, bone density. It's cardiovascular health. It's autonomy, you know, it's so many things and we've had to, we've had to remove, like, you know, my mom called me and my siblings and she was like, you know, guys, do you think?

I don't think dad 

can do this [00:37:00] alone 

kush_1_01-21-2025_130127: Yeah. 

Travis: And, you know, and we're like, yeah, like, probably 

not. Cause like, 

you know, the inevitability of, of getting lost or getting hit by a car. So like, okay, well there goes the autonomy, but we can still do it with him. And, and my mom does it, you know, like, it's still like, that's the plan. And, you know, I call my dad at night and I'm like, I'm like, dad, what'd you do today? 

kush_1_01-21-2025_130127: I love it. Hmm. 

Travis: He says, I went running, but like, it's all I got to do, but every

day I just go running. It lets, because it's still, it's still part of his identity. You know, there's not a whole lot of actual running going on. It could be. It could be 10 minutes or it could be three hours depending on the weather or the energy or whatever, but it is still being outside.

It's still moving. It's still the fitness, the bone density, like all that stuff. And Kush, you can see when he is exercising, you know, and I think like, You know, research would support this. [00:38:00] Cognition goes up. he doesn't become some mathematician or something, but you, his cognition goes up. You can tell, he can comprehend more.

He can remember more. He'll like, he'll throw in some random, hilarious one line joke, you know, you're like, Dad, where the fuck did that come from? You know, you know, you're like, Dad, where the fuck did that come from? Out of nowhere. And it's great. It's really important. like, how long does it, but then you find the next thing and you keep , I can imagine maybe someone's in memory care some of these memory care facilities, they have a great like Finston, you know, kind of outdoor space 

kush_1_01-21-2025_130127: Yeah. 

Travis: pads, 

like. Man, get people outside, let them walk, let them move, 

let them, let them do it alone if they want to, and let them do it with someone, because that's a great, like, let them, who 

kush_1_01-21-2025_130127: Hmm. 

Travis: it is? 

Find a person whose hand they [00:39:00] can hold and 

walk circles 

Kush: around this place, you know, and maybe they can't walk. Well, do it in a wheelchair, move outside, however you can do it. For this next clip, we move into a conversation with Ned. Over end, somebody who spent decades competing at the highest level in the sport of endurance cycling. What stood out in this episode is how, honestly, Ned talks about aging, what slows down, what adapts and what still matters.

Ned is not chasing who he used to be. But he's staying engaged, curious, and competitive in new ways. Here we go.

Ned: So there's a few things that come to mind here. one, you say, getting into new sports, 

there's sports that are fun. and for instance, a sport I might like to try doing, is, I love the water. 

I'm not so sure I could get into surfing, [00:40:00] but maybe 

kiteboarding there's to go out and experience and give it a chance and learn the sport. Don't be so 

frustrated. Don't get frustrated so easy. 

and do it in a way that, gradually get into the sport, get some instruction 

on it. when I had to learn to 

swim, trying to teach yourself to swim, that's not the best way to go about it. Swimming is so technical. You have to 

get some expertise, have somebody evaluate 

your swim stroke.

You can't just, because you're an accomplished athlete and you've got a lot of fitness, you just can't get in the pool and figure out 

swimming. so I had to get some 

guys to examine my stroke. and work with me on improving my swimming. So 

I think if you're getting into a new sport, 

and I think if someone is going to get, they're not mountain biking now, get some instruction on mountain biking, 

don't just cry and go figure it out, because it's going to be frustrating. 

if you fall off or [00:41:00] you're slow or, and more dangerous if you're not careful, at least, 

know, look at videos on YouTube and read about it. 

so I would advise people when they get into a new sport to, to get into it 

more gradually and learn about it and be 

open to it. And things like that.

Now, another thing that I think we touched on, 

and it's something that, that I've been really 

good at. is not holding back because of my age, because of the number. 

Because it's so easy and I've 

done it. I've done it myself. I can remember a group ride starting in the spring. we do these once a week group 

rides in Durango. with 

some really strong athletes. And I remember doing a group ride in the spring, I think I was and 

just getting my ass kicked by riders 

that the year before I could [00:42:00] hang with, and I was doing much better in that ride. and I remember coming into my mind as well. Okay.

you're 50, this is 

what, age is what's doing this to you, and it's easy to use that as an excuse. 

and fortunately, 

I awakened to the fact, no, I'm not going to accept that. I'm going to 

In spite of just getting my ass kicked, I'm going to believe 

that I can still improve and that it's not just age and age is not going to hold me back,

and it's interesting.

It happened recently. 

I did a gravel race in Ukiah last month, miles, 6, 000 feet of climbing. I had been 

in Arizona for a month before that. So 

had put in. Yeah, I was training focused on this event I performed 

poorly in that event for 

what my expectations were. And granted, my expectations were too high, but,I signed [00:43:00] up as 

a pro, there was 35 pro 

elite racers and I was 19th. Out of 35, but I feel I'm capable of doing 

better than that. Now I didn't prove it. The only way to 

know if I'm capable of doing better than that in the next event, finishing in a higher percentage of the pro 

field is if I actually 

do it. So I had to come away from that event thinking, okay, you're going to be 

70, you know, maybe this is the new reality. 

And the truth is it may be the reality, but I've got to get rid of 

that way of thinking if I'm going to find out if it's going to be 

different and I'm capable of doing more than that. You know what I mean? So I am going to, I'll be doing obviously, 

more races this year and I hope to improve. 

on that finish comparatively, if it's gotta be a 

mindset of that's not 

the reality, if it [00:44:00] is, know what I'm saying? In order to find out if it's not, I've got to, 

in 

again and,and, See if I'm capable of examining what my fitness was in that event and see 

if I can improve on it. And one thing, the week 

up to that event, my training was going really well a week before I got a cold. So I had to back off my training one 

week into it. But theoretically, 

backing off the week leading up to the race shouldn't hurt as far as your preparation. And I did, I felt fine day of the race, 

maybe the cold was affecting me. And,

maybe that's just this, the performance I had in me at the time. Anyway, but do

Kush: Net. 

Uh, thank 

you.

Ned: attitude towards it?

Kush: Yeah. and that is what I'm really, you seem to have this 

really healthy relationship with performance 

where you spoke about not being 

fixated on those [00:45:00] metrics. 

So a lot of us, you know, who have been doing, 

let's say a sport for a while, you get to some point 

where, again, you might start, not being able to 

perform with the same 

level of technical competence.

And sometimes 

a lot of people will stop a sport because 

they can't do it at that level, right? What advice 

would you give to people who, 

who want to continue finding that joy in their 

sport, but can't quite 

reconcile? Of that change in performance. 

Ned: Oh, I don't know. you have to accept that 

you are going to lose your level of fitness and your level of technical ability as you grow older, it's just going to happen, 

trying to achieve your maximum ability, 

[00:46:00] For your age, that, that means that you can't be restrained by the number. Okay. And 

mentally you, you can't be constrained. It's 

inevitable that it's going to happen.

I'm training now. I was thinking of it just, on, on my ride the other day, I'll do rides that when I was younger, 

I would improve from them nowadays, it doesn't seem like 

I'm improving, I'm doing these rides and in spite of the fact that I've been training, I'm not. I don't have the 

momentum in my training and 

is being constrained. I'm sure, of course, by age, it's only natural. So I have to look at the different, 

modalities. Is it, 

sleep is one, it's different types of recovery. nutrition is going to be important for sure, as you get older and you want to improve. You 

just look at the different ways to maximize. Being 

able to do whatever you can for your age, not letting that number restrain you. And to be honest, for sure, I 

[00:47:00] am not as good technically 

as I was. I ride with, some young guys and it's really important not to chase them too hard. 

Because one thing that'll really slow down 

your building fitness is throwing yourself on the ground and hurt yourself,and it's really important not to have too much 

machismo, 

you're mountain bike riding, mountain bike racing, getting hurt isn't doing you any good, And 

it can really set you back. 

So it's important to stay within your ability, yet at the same time, push the envelope of your 

abilities a little bit



Kush: At this point in today's show, we changed the conversation. We step away from personal stories and into the physical reality of aging bodies. This clip comes from a conversation with and equity who works [00:48:00] directly with athletes dealing with wear injury and long-term adaptation. What makes this one different is its honesty about joints, tendons.

Recovery and the limits we can't negotiate our way around. The full conversation digs into how aging athletes can keep training intelligently without denial.

like

andy_1_02-13-2025_181017: all of those in one person in the presentation.

You, you will have somebody come who might say, I've got, and, but that's normal. this is the thing. This is again the, you will have somebody who, let's take a climber who's been climbing for 40, 50 years. They're in their late sixties. Is their rotator cuff going to look like it did in their twenties?

No. It will likely be what we would class it as a degenerative rotator cuff. Is their shoulder joint going to look the [00:49:00] same as it did in their twenties? No. It will very likely have arthritis and all sorts of adaptive changes going on in there to do with having been a, an overhead athlete for 40, 50 years.

I. Are they probably got less energy than they did when they were 20. Yes. have they lost some power? Yes. And we can come onto the, the kind of the reasons for loss of power and that type of thing, but it, yeah. it's not gonna be one thing. All of that is in there. So they say, they come I've got sore fingers.

I've got a sore shoulder. Sore shoulder's. Definitely very common in, in older climbers. You've got, again, going back to, before it's this holistic point of view. There's no point in me just that's not the shoulder. No. it's a shoulder with a problem. But that shoulder is attached to an individual, it's attached to a person.

Their history is important. their wants, their drive is important. You know why they're here, what do they want to get? Is [00:50:00] that realistic? we need to have that conversation sometimes. yeah, it's that full picture and so you can't. Give the same exercises or the same prescription to one person as you would as the other because you may have to consider, alright, we need to strengthen that shoulder in order to improve the symptoms that I feel are coming from it being arthritic.

And we know that one of the best things you can do is to improve control and strength and robustness of a joint through muscular improvements. Could that impact the rotator cuff? Yes. So it would look possibly different for a, an older athlete than it would do for a younger athlete. I might work in different angles, for example.

So rather than overhead, I probably wouldn't do this, but it's just an easy example. Pull ups yeah. are very overhead. We're not actually often in this plane of movement in climbing. We are most often out in [00:51:00] front of us. And it can be very irritable for an over shoulder that's maybe lost a bit of range and there's some issues going on in there.

So WeWork pull in front, it's still pull. Yeah, it's actually arguably a bit more relevant as a climbing angle, that kind of thing. We might focus more on time under tension, which will stimulate muscles, but will also actually have an effect on tendons, a positive effect on tendons. yeah,common things that I see in older athletes is a bit of everything, And maybe that's the decline. Maybe that's the, that you've not just got one thing, you've got one thing with another. And then that gets complicated, doesn't it? And that can feel a bit too much, that can feel a bigger hurdle to overcome. Because we've not just got one thing, we've got all these other things, attached with it.

I suppose if we took an example, and the [00:52:00] really common one, and I hear this all the time when I go to the climbing wall over winter, the climbing gym, there's a really fortunate, and Kendall got a fantastic enormous, climbing route, roots wall here, really popular. Fantastic to see when I go.

She's often joined the midweek rather than weekends. It's full of ageless athletes. Yeah. There's people in their eighties that are climbing, we are like the youngest there. Yeah, it's absolutely fantastic. Yeah, it's brilliant. but. when you, I might be away, whatever, and I can hear the pair next to me and they're just listing all the things that like, that they can't do.

They just, the conversation is all around, oh yeah, I've had to stop doing that now. I can't do this anymore and I can't do that. And Yeah. Or have you heard about this and that? Yeah. And it's quite negative. And these are positive. these are the people that, I guess in some ways [00:53:00] in, for the health service and stuff that we don't need to worry about, these are the people that are being active, that are being social, that are getting out there.

yeah. So goodness knows what the rest of, people are saying, but the biggie is sore knees. That's the, the number one that starts and stops people from doing whatever it might be. So there's quite a big trad climbing area around here. Got the mountains in the late district. it tends to be quite a steep.

High long walk in, do your climbing, walk back out on the walk, back out, got really sore knees. Yeah, take your ibuprofen and anti-inflammatories and that kind of thing. And then manage it like that for a couple of years. And then eventually they'll just decide, that's too sore. I'm not enjoying that anymore, so I can only go to the crags that are more roadside, that type of thing.

Or yeah, I'm gonna have to stop hiking and, and this kind of thing. And it just, the world gets smaller and that's [00:54:00] going back to people in their thirties and the forties. What the problem was reducing opportunities to be active. And then the same happens. They've just, they're now no longer hiking for more than 20 minutes.

So there goes some cardio that's going to have an effect on their overall condition and fitness. plus. obviously if they were bothering to walk up a mountain to go try to climbing, that's obviously something that they love and now they're not able to do that. And that's really sad. And the vast majority of the time, it's something along the lines of a patella tendinopathy.

It needs some focused strength work. working along, time on detention, that kind of thing. quite easy to address is the really frustrating, annoying thing. If you can find the right entry point and strengthen from there. It doesn't need any special equipment, you can probably just do it at home. yeah.

Even some warming up [00:55:00] techniques and things like that, which people never do for walk-ins. Yeah. is a bug bear of mine in that you, we will walk warm up so carefully for climbing. And then we'll spend Monday to Friday, sat in an office, and then on Saturday morning we'll drive somewhere, get out, put a 15 kilo tread pack on your back, and then try and walk up a 45 degree outside of a mountain and then wonder why our knees are hurt.



Kush: Next we move into a very different type of conversation. This clip comes from Jerry Moffitt, one of the world's first professional rock climbers, known for his intensity and focus. What stood out in this episode wasn't aging or longevity. It was how methodical Jerry is about performance. Minimizing variables, controlling attention and preparing the mind [00:56:00] as deliberately as the body.

The full conversation goes deep into obsession, visualization, and focus, and what that mindset can teach us far beyond climbing.

you on sighted, did that route first try, like without knowing what the route was like, without any prior pre inspection, Jerry, you on sighted that route. So talk to us a little bit about both the preparation and the focus. Wow,

Jerry: a guy called Randy Vogel who had written the guidebook for Joshua Tree. He came to England. I was 19. I'd not been to America yet. He'd never heard of me. said to him, what about this route, Equinox?

I really want to go to Joshua Tree and try Equinox. And he said to me, he was a good friend of Bakker's, he said, it. There's no way you're gonna do Equinox. I said, you'll cut your fingers to shreds. It took John Backer three [00:57:00] days to top rope it. You've got no chance. That's what he said. So then I was like, really got to do this route. then, I think, it was not conceivable, not, I'd have been happy if I'd done it in two days. But then when I meant, went to Joshua Tree, I was there for three months. a very good friend of John Baca and I did a lot of climbing with John. He saw me climbing and he was the one who gave me the idea to try and onsite it. Without him, I don't think I'd have tried to onsite it, but he said to me one day, you know what, I think you could onsite Equinox. So then I had it as a goal. to on site Equinox. So then I spent, oh, a month just training to do Equinox. There's some boulder problems there with finger jams, so I've been doing these boulder problems up and down and reversing them all on these finger jams. I was doing rope ladders, traversing, I was eating a fantastic diet. I don't think I've, all my life, I don't think I've ever [00:58:00] peaked for a climb better than when I did grown ups. I was so fired up. I was so fired up. it was before, half friends were made. So the smallest size you could get was a number one. John Bacalempian, a half friend, so I had this one friend I could put in the crack. and I can remember leading it, I climbed up, reversed down. Shook out, then I went up a little bit more, put some wires in, got to a little shake out. I remember thinking, should I put the half friend there? I thought, no, I'll save it. And I was so psyched and so fired up, I just ran it out, put one nut in, I just went, and I just went for it, ran it out. I reckon if they'd stacked another Equinox on top, I think I'd have done that as well. I didn't feel pumped and absolutely,

Kush: wow.

Jerry: absolutely cruised it. I pissed up it. I felt so good, but I was so psyched up and ready for it.

And so fit, I think I'd had two rest days before on my rest days. I was doing probably [00:59:00] 10, I was just climbing all day on easy route. So I'd do loads of fives, eights and fives, seven. So I was doing loads and loads of easy mileage. And then my training days, I was doing ladders, pull ups, deadhands, traversing, bouldering, crack climbing, so it, back then, there, there wasn't anywhere to train better, it was before climbing walls and anything like that, so I was really fired up for that route, and it was, a big thing for me, and John was there, with his camera, he actually, he documented it and got some great photos, So it was a special day to go there with John Backer and, have him take photos of you. It was really good and he was very generous, to encourage me to do that. ha,

Kush: that one of those rare days you would break from tradition of,drinking tea and perhaps go to the local bar at Joshua Tree and,

Jerry: ha.

Kush: grab some pints?

Jerry: No,I never drank alcohol. If I'd had money I would have, but we never, I never had the money. [01:00:00] I never had the

or go to a restaurant or anything. We were on such a shoestring there was no, it was pre sponsorship, pre sponsored climbing. We absolutely lived on a shoestring. But yeah, I never drank alcohol then. If somebody gave me a beer I'd have had it, but I honestly remember never going to the shop and buying a can of beer. Because it was way too expensive. We didn't even, you wouldn't even, wouldn't even have a meal in a restaurant. you might have a coffee, because it was free refills, and that was pretty incredible. But that was about it. 

Kush: Yeah, no, so you put an incredible amount of really comprehensive preparation for this route. Like you saw the route, you were inspired, you talk to others. It like lit this fire in you and you put all this time in Joshua Tree, preparing for it. 

When you went to the route, you were physically completely ready. At the same time, you also [01:01:00] had the mental, uh, state to be able to execute. And I think this is something that perhaps separates, let's say, you know, the very, very top climbers from the rest of us where, you know, we do all of the same things.

But then when we get to the climb itself, we may choke, right? We may get either. we may either, you know, we, in that balance between focus versus expectation, we might like lose that, lose that balance. And maybe that's also something that you talk about in your newer book, Mastermind, you know, the whole mental.

Jerry: yeah,

Kush: So talk to us, Jerry, a little bit about The mental side of your preparation where you would get to this route and you would do it and I would also love for you to maybe,compare, contrast, whatnot, with similar techniques that you've studied in other top climbers, 

Jerry: I went to Equinox, for [01:02:00] one, John Bakker told me he thought I could unsight it. I've got somebody who says, I think you can unsight that. So I know it's possible because John Bakker's told me and he's done it. So then I can start to visualise it. And think of myself on sighting it because he thinks it and he thinks that he can do it.

So then I think it and then I would thought about it. So when I was at the bottom of the room, I truly believe that I could on site it. I didn't know whether I was or not, I knew that I was in the best shape of my life. I knew that I could. Had a good chance of doing it. I was confident. And that confidence was instilled into me by John Backer, And, myself talking about myself onsiting it with John Backer. about it, and visualising it. So we talked about onsiting it. I visualised it, And it That, that instilled the confidence. So if you're trying to do [01:03:00] something, I would say the more you talk about, think about, and write about something doing, the more likely you are to actually on site it. And Ondra is no different from all the other climbers. he's got it. He is a little bit different. He's got a really good, attitude,about being confident just preparing things, he's confident and he thinks about things in the right way. if you get to the bottom of the route and you've got any doubt and you think you're not going to do it, it's going to be a lot harder to do it. So you really want to be visualizing things, I would say not, the one thing I learned from writing the book, you don't want to be optimistic, you want to be pessimistic. Yeah. You want to be pessimistic about everything you go to that route, because if you're optimistic, you're going to think to yourself, Oh, I don't really need to train about that.

I don't really need to think about that. the crux? Ah, it doesn't really matter. I'll probably just whambo. I'll probably just do it. You want to be [01:04:00] pessimistic, so you want to go, Where's the crux? I've got to find out where that is. going to happen if that goes wrong? What happens if that goes wrong?

What happens if I get pumped there? are all the things that you need to think about prior to going to the root. Being that pessimistic can lead you to being optimistic when you get there. So when you stand at the bottom of the root, you know What happens if you get pumped? my fitness is good and I can shake out anywhere, and nobody's better than me in the world at shaking out. What happens if I read the root wrong? that's probably not going to happen, because nobody reads poems better than me. What happens,if, my foot pops and one of the moves,I know that my foot pops don't make any difference because I can remember that climb I did two weeks ago. My foot popped and I still did it. I know I can, I'm ready for it and I've thought about everything and I know what my, how I'm going to deal with all those things. So I would say [01:05:00] be pessimistic. Think about all the things that could go wrong. will you deal with those things going wrong when you're on an actual climb? So when you're at the bottom of that climb, you can go, I thought about everything that can go wrong, and I know that I can deal with every single one of them and still do the climb. that's how you get to that position. 

, 

Kush: Next we have a conversation with Dean Kosis, one of the most recognizable faces from the sport of ultra running. What stood out in this episode wasn't the scale of what he's done, it was how simple his approach becomes when things get hottest.

Dean talks about quieting the mind, letting go of outcome, and focusing entirely on the next step. A mindset he's relied on for over 30 years. the full conversation explores longevity, attention, and what it really takes to stay in the [01:06:00] game over a lifetime.

was there a race team that almost broke you?

Dean: Uh, I mean, there's been, there's been many. there's a race called the Badwater Ultra Marathon, which we talked about, which is 135 miles across Death Valley, uh, in the middle of summer. And, you know, I, I've done that race 10 times, and every time I thought, I'm not gonna make it like I'm done. I, there's, I can't, I can't make it another 10 feet, let alone, you know, another 30 or 40 miles.

So I think the appeal of that race to me, why it kept going back, is because I thought. It is so uncertain when you, when you, when the gun goes off to start that race, there's so much uncertainty that every time you finish it, you prove to yourself that you, you did something you thought was impossible, you know?

And people say, well, come on, you've done it 10 times. Like, it's, it's, you, you know what it's all about. I [01:07:00] do, but it's still the same challenge the 10th time as it was the first time. So that's what I, I love about ultra marathoning is that it's, you can never take it for granted. No matter how good you are there, there's no certainty you're gonna reach the finish line.

Absolutely. And I, I also have sensed that, you know, you can be the most prepared person, but if you are in some of the environments that are as harsh as the ones that you just described, there's so much that is left to that moment, that condition. I know you have likely spoken about this before, but any couple of things you fall back on, Dean, when you encounter conditions or let's say a point of suffering, which seems almost otherworldly, how have you found a way out?[01:08:00] 

Way out? Yeah, I mean, people sometimes ask me, you know, what do you think about when things get really tough? And I tell them, I, I don't, I mean, thinking is the problem. Don't think, just do. , I've paid attention to what I do when things get really, really tough. And what I do is I don't think I just execute.

All I say to myself is, take your next footstep to the best of your ability. Okay? Take your next footstep to the best of your ability. I don't think about the future. I. I don't reflect on the past. I don't do anything except be in the here and now, the present moment of time and put my next footstep in front of my next footstep.

And it's not so easy to do because our minds, even when you're exhausted, our minds are so active. I mean, even now is as we're talking, you're thinking about a hundred things. You're thinking about, where's my next client? What am I gonna have for lunch? You know, what's my next question for Dean? [01:09:00] When's this podcast gonna be over?

Uh, but somehow quiet your mind and just focus on your next footstep. You can get through anything. And I've done it time and time again where I thought, I'm never gonna get through this. And I've just said, don't think about it. Don't think about how much further you've gotta go. Don't think about where the next day station is.

Don't think about what you're going to eat. Just be in the present moment of time and take your next footstep to the best of your ability. 

You know, it takes me back to my childhood a bit when my parents would take us trekking and backpacking in the mountains and the goal was to make it to the next tree.

You know, we were these, uh, I don't know, these, my brother and I are these petulant,distracted kids. and the goal was to just make it to the next tree and then the next tree, and then before you knew it, you know, we would, yeah, sometimes [01:10:00] wish that as adults, you know, we would be again, as or close to as impressionable as we were kids, and we would just listen to like a simple goal and try to maybe just follow on that goal.

One thing also, Dean, I wanted to ask you is about, again, the relationship to the process over the years. So when we were exchanging notes, We talked about getting beat up while surfing at Ocean Beach, the, uh, the coastline and the surf break outside San Francisco, which both of us called our home. I started surfing it at OB in 2008, soon after I moved to the city.

And I just remember I loved all of those beatings, Dean. Like, you know, you know how difficult getting out at OB is even on like, let's say a a a, a, a not so intense day. I loved all of that, right? I was learning every, every [01:11:00] little wave battled through felt like a win. But now I don't seem to enjoy it as much.

I have to confess, you know, I don't look forward to, I'll sometimes not go out on those days when it looks like I might suffer more and I might not make it out. So how has that relationship with again, the fight. Change for you Dean, over the decades? 

Yeah, I, the fight has changed in that, you know, before I used to think about getting on the podium, you know, now I think about finishing the race, like, can I get to the finish?

So it's, it's, it's more now for me about longevity, about, uh, staying in the game. You know, I've been doing this for over three decades. How many people do you know that have been professional athletes for three decades? It's, it's unheard of. I mean, there's not a professional basketball player, you know, baseball [01:12:00] player, whatever.

I mean, there, there's guys, Tom Brady, right? He's, he's been doing it for, what, 12 years? 13 years, which is phenomenal. I mean, I've been ultra marathoning for over 30 years and I'm still doing it. So now, you know, my challenge is just, can you persist? Can you keep doing this for another 20 years? Let's see how long you can go.

And if you look at runners, it typically, there's, there's two, two things that happen. There's people that are really great when they're young, and then that's it. They can't run anymore. They, you know, they burn out or they get osteoarthritis or that, whatever. And then there's people that start late in life and they set like incredible age records.

You know, people like 75, you know, running a sub four hour marathon. But there's really someone that's lasted for so long, that's still kind of at the top of their game. So, you know, I'm, I'm trying to see how long the streak can last and, and trying to, you know, stay in the game, uh, for [01:13:00] another three decades.



Kush: Next we hear from Bob Becker. Bob at the age of 82 last year became the oldest person to complete the 1 35 mile bad water ultra marathon, the one that we have spoken about earlier in this episode a couple of times. But yes, he did it at 82. And what makes Bob's story special is that he did not start running until his late fifties.

? Bob talks about curiosity saying yes before he feels ready, and how effort later in life becomes less about proving something and more about staying open to what's next. This full conversation is a reminder that endurance doesn't have an expiration date.

Is there something about the sport that is? revealing to you about yourself that you didn't already [01:14:00] know.

Bob: part of it is recognizing when I do something that is at least for me a little bit on the extraordinary side is that. Yeah, I can do that. I can set a goal, look a little bigger than maybe to most people would make sense and be able to, uh, be able to accomplish it. And as the years go by, I'm still able to do those things so that it once again gets back to the notion that there's no reason that age has to stand in the way of. Adventure and excitement and doing, doing difficult things and, uh, remaining active in the, in this world of sports. And, uh, so it's sort of like each time I'm able to do something, it motivates me to, uh, want to do or explore even more. it's self fulfilling, I suppose, in that respect, if that makes any sense.

When I select a difficult race, something that most people would think doesn't make a whole lot of sense for somebody my age, or maybe it doesn't make any sense at all. Why would somebody [01:15:00] run a hundred miles or whatever it is? And then I, and I finish it or I accomplish it.

it becomes self-motivating. it, it, it tells me, yeah, I can look at bigger and better, bigger and more complicated things, and absolutely have the opportunity to, to complete them, to, uh, to set the goal and achieve the goal. And there's no reason why I can't continue to do that indefinitely, as long as, again, I'm pragmatic about what makes sense.

I mean, I'm still 80 years old, but, Challenging myself is still very important to me, and I'm sure it will be for a long time. And by actually being able to accomplish something or know that I could have, except for some odd circumstance like getting sick, it motivates me to continue to look for the next, next big thing.

Or just the next fun adventure to have, that's all. Running with friends in Europe or something, which I did last year. It wasn't a race, it was just a one off adventure that was absolutely fun. [01:16:00] You know, a blast. I had a great time. And we ran a lot of miles, but it was something I was able to do and absolutely love doing.

So it doesn't have to be a formal race either. a one off kind of adventure.

Kush: Do you have maybe one or two stories of transformation where? somebody that you perhaps inspired or coached or brought into running changed their lives.

Bob: I think I can only,generically say that I've had many, many people who've told me just exactly that, who never thought that they could. do something like this and that, going from, and many of them were runners, they'd run a half marathon or something and then they, they moved up, decided to try an ultra became very, very important to them and in many ways, in many cases translated to other part of their lives where that might have been in a job that wasn't the greatest thing in the world and just found the courage [01:17:00] to go out and try something new and they never thought they could do.

so I'm not trying in any way to say that this is the case, broadly, but from, for more people than I could ever imagine, it not only has meant, a new and exciting sport for them, but in some ways, major other changes in their lives that they learned they could, they could try and give a shot and it would, and it might work. 

if I can give you an aside that is. related. I was telling you about that 2002 experience of finishing Badwater. And I want to share this with you because, and with people who might be listening, because it was so Unbelievably profound for me. And to this day, when I read what I'm going to read you, it's very hard not to get emotional.

So I've said to you that some people have been [01:18:00] inspired to, uh, to try new things. When I finished that race at, in 2002, I crossed the finish line. Somebody pulled up a chair. I sat down for a while. There were a lot of people around. And as I started leaving a woman who I did not know, who was not part of the race came by.

And handed me a note and said to me, Will you please read this, but not now, read it later. And I said, sure. Now the finish line at Badwater is on Mount Whitney, and it's an area where there's camping up there, there's a campground. And I'm guessing that she came from the campground, and because of all the excitement of the finish line, very frequently people who are camping up there kind of hang out and see what's going on, and I'm guessing that's what happened here.

Well, she left me a note, and I read the note, and I'm going to read it to you now, and she said, I have been looking for some reason to stay alive. As I watch you make it up the hill, I [01:19:00] told God, if you made it to the finish line,

I promise to live 100 more days. then take it from there. you never know how you're going to affect people. You just never know. so I wanted to share that with you. because that was certainly the most impactful thing that's ever happened to me in 20 years of doing this crazy stuff. And that sort of alone by itself almost makes it worthwhile.

Kush: Okay. From there, we move into climbing, but also next we have Bill Ramsey, who leads double life as a rock climber and also as a philosophy professor who's been climbing hard for over four decades and is still projecting elite roots in his sixties. The kind that are done by like the very. Top 5% of climbers.

What makes this episode [01:20:00] different is how seamlessly Bill connects physical problem solving with intellectual work, treating, climbing, and philosophy as to versions of the same practice. The full conversation explores balance, curiosity, and what it looks like to stay deeply engaged without narrowing your life around One thing.

Let's talk about this. Idea of the paint box. Okay. Okay, perfect. Uh, apparently that term is associated with you in some way. So tell us what is that all about? Okay. 

Bill Ramsey: I think I came up with this kind of as an attitude where I think I was studying stoic philosophy a little bit maybe at the time, but it seemed like in training and like dieting, you're constantly being bombarded with, oh, here's a way you can get stronger, or here's a way you can lose weight.

And you don't actually have to, you can eat everything you want, or you don't actually have to train, just do this for five minutes [01:21:00] and you'll have everything you need and it's, you'll get much stronger. And it's all crap, right? I mean, it's all bs. And so a sort of approach that I would like is to, no, no, no, you are gonna deal with pain.

You have pain in your life, and you should just accept that. And don't think that you can get by without accepting the amount of, of pain that's actually gonna exist in your life. However, one thing you can engage in is what I call pain reallocation. Okay? So say this piece of paper, let's suppose that this piece of paper, this volume represents all the pain in your life, okay?

But there's two different kinds of pain. And imagine that this volume is separated by a divider. And so let's say that on this side is the kind of pain that's associated with, hard work, sacrifice, discipline,really, things that you normally know you should be doing, but maybe you're not doing.

And then on this side is a sort of pain associated with dissatisfaction, not achieving your [01:22:00] goals, failing in various ways, not being fulfilled. And so the thing that, the way to think about this, I mean, this is just a, this is just a geometric representation. It's something I think we all deep down know is this divider.

It's not gonna reduce the overall amount of pain in your life, but you can gauge in pain, reallocation where this kind of pain, which I think most people want less of the pain associated with failure and not achieving your goals can be reduced. You can move the divide over so that that quantity of pain becomes much, much less.

But the only way that's gonna happen geometrically is if you substantially increase this amount of pain. And that means you have to work harder and have more discipline. So that's what the pain box is about. 

So, there's this pain reallocation where you can swap out this kind of suffering for this kind of suffering, but that means there's more hard work involved.

And then if you back off the hard work, of course you will do, there'll be less suffering in that [01:23:00] sense and devotion and dedication, but then you're gonna have a much greater volume of the kind of pain associated with not achieving your goals and dissatisfaction. So I just, I kinda came up with that.

'cause I, it, what it does is it helps make very vivid the geometry of how I kind of live my life basically, which is, it's a kind of way of putting no pain, no gain, and only it's like. I realized that, wow, I really do want to have more success and I really do wanna achieve certain goals. But given this sort of geometric representation, I can see that there's a direct inverse relation between that and how much hard work I do.

And so that's what kind of motivated me to come up with the pain box. 

Kush: No pain, no gain for sure. anybody who's been in the game long enough can likely identify with that. I want to go [01:24:00] back Do the, uh, philosophy side for a second. bill, you're a very thoughtful person.

Is there a philosophical idea or framework that's helped you push through some of that, again, pain or failure or, you talked about, I guess, choices for a second there. Is there something like that that's gonna helped you, uh, frame that and I 

Bill Ramsey: mean, 

Kush: I move forward. 

Bill Ramsey: There's maybe my interpretation of stoicism, but I, whenever I talk to somebody who really knows stoicism, they're like, oh, no, no, no.

That's way too much of an oversimplification. And that's kind of, that's kind of a pop philosophy, perspective. I mean, I don't know. I, I, I do feel like there's a kind of ideological commitment that I have there that goes all the way back to when I was a little boy. And I know I, my father once told me this, I grew up on a cattle ranch.

But the bottom line is that you's like, you know, you need to accept that nothing comes easy. But if you work hard, it will come. And that's the difference, is working [01:25:00] hard. And I think as a kid, I came to appreciate that I wasn't a really terribly good athlete. you know, in most sports it seems like other kids were better, better, just naturally gifted athletes.

But I then came to appreciate that I, I did have a kind of gift where I could outperform other kids just by out cuffing, tougher, being tougher than them, frankly, and working harder and trying harder. and I could do that. That was the one thing I could do. Psychologically I was tougher than them and I could work harder than they were When I was in high school, we had this thing called the Marine Corps Physical Fitness Test.

And it was pretty grueling. I mean, it was, it was, you know, a lot of, uh, think you had to do a hundred situps in two minutes, and then you had to do 60 pushups and pull up were like 30 and you only had like a few minutes in between each event. Um, and there was no coach or anything, so that's why I first started self-coaching.

That's why I first started figuring out what kind of work I needed to do to actually, do well in this. And it was kind of a, a place of pride in Madris High [01:26:00] School because we would always go up against the big Portland schools and we would always win. We would always, we were good at that. And so I took that quite seriously.

And I think the year I, my senior year, I had the highest score in the country for that particular test. and that's when I first really came to appreciate that I like this process of self-coaching. And I also came to appreciate that, regardless of what your natural talents are, I mean, obviously at some level it makes a difference, but it, at this level, it can all be overcome by just hard work and sacrifice.

And, um, and I think, you know, what you see at the top level, at the very Olympic level is it, you have people who understand that, but they also are naturally gifted. And, um, so they got the, they got the whole package. But, um, you know, even if sort of rank amateurs, you can actually go pretty far by just toughing it out and working hard and sacrifice and, um, and having discipline.

And so that's always been my kind of underlying perspective, my underlying philosophy. 

Kush: Next, our [01:27:00] focus widens. This clip comes from a conversation with Bob Babbitt, who spent decades at the center of endurance sport, not as a competitor, but as a connector. What makes this episode stand out is Bob's perspective on ability, dignity, dignity, and what sport can offer when performance is no longer the point.

Through his work with adaptive athletes, he's seen firsthand how movement can restore identity, purpose, and independence. The full conversation explores community inclusion and why sport still matters, especially as we age. What is your secret Bob? What is it that keeps you staying fired? 

Bob: Oh, just over the years. just being with positive, upbeat people. And that's the other thing is when you talk about being ageless, a lot of people tend to hang out.

If you're in the seventies, you hang out with the [01:28:00] 70 year olds. And what are you reading? They're reading obits there. They're there. They're talking about medication right there. But if you're going to events, and there's 30 year olds there, and all you're talking about is your PRS and how to get faster.

You get younger you hang with young people that to me is is the is the best thing and you know, uh, We with competitor we sold that a couple times so that no eight and sold it in 12 Um, and then I started all you know breakfast with bob our youtube show in 2010 ish and kept getting just rebranded everything under that but it was one of those things with When you talk about ageless, you taught to me what that means is that you hang with younger people so that you can, you can accomplish what you want to do, but more importantly, you get the energy that they have.

And, and one of the, one working for our [01:29:00] foundation, if I've mentioned that our challenge athlete foundation, but we've, we 1994 when a friend of ours was a friend of ours was injured for a second time. He'd been a football player at Yale, was on his motorcycle going to class, going to acting class in New York City, got hit by a bus, lost his leg below the knee, came back to run a 3 16 marathon with a walking leg, and then, came to Ironman where I met him, Jim McLaren.

He ran 10 42 in Kona, top 20 percent everybody in a race, stopping to pour sweat out of his Processing leg is running along. at that point, he's sponsored by Budweiser, and he's traveling the world. And then eight years later, he got hit again. He was racing a Mission Viejo. A man went through a closed intersection, hit the back of his bike, propelled ahead at first into a pole, became a quadriplegic.

And at that point, I covered a lot of wheelchair athletes through Competitor Magazine. And the one thing athletes would tell me, I'd ask them, what's the worst part about your new life? [01:30:00] Invariably, it was. 30 years old, here come mom and dad back in my life. I was independent, now I'm not. So our goal became, we're going to do a little trial fund for Jimmy, we're going to raise 25, 000 and buy Jimmy a van with hand controls to give him independence.

Well we raised 49, 000, thought our job was done, and then three empty women came to us and said it's great we did it for Jimmy, but did you know when you get injured, your health insurance covers a walking around leg in an everyday wheelchair. because they consider sport a luxury item. Insurance doesn't cover anything to do with sport.

So now it's been 32 years. We've raised 180 million. We've sent out over 50, 000 grants. Now we'll be sending out a 50, 000 grant this month, to challenged athletes in all 50 states, 73 countries. And more importantly, in 105 different sports, we just sent out our 105th sport was wheelchair pickleball. what I've learned from our athletes.

And you see our athletes are [01:31:00] missing body parts, and they've got big smiles on their faces, because there are a lot of cases they're happy to be alive. They've gone through some pretty major trauma in their lives. And you see them not just living, but thriving and understanding that I lost a leg. I was never going to be an Olympic athlete, but I'm going to the Paralympics.

I'm going and I'm going to be riding a bike in the Paralympics and I'm going to get them out. it's when you're with our kids from our foundation, every day is a positive day. Every day is a way to sort of our athletes sort of look trauma in the face and say, you know what, you're not going to bring me down.

And, you know, we've got athletes, I was with a young man the other day with, he's got cerebral palsy and he's adaptive CrossFit is his sport and he's killing it. And we got another young man, he was playing collegiate [01:32:00] baseball at East Carolina University, was in a tubing accident, lost his leg below the knee, and, had to have his leg amputated.

And his, you know, night before the operation with a leg amputated, he says, Dad, what does this mean? Dad says, well, Parker, it means you'll never play baseball again. Then mom steps in and goes, don't be telling our son what he can't do. And then Parker's saying, but mom, no baseball player with a prosthetic leg has played division one baseball.

And mom goes, but there has to be a first. Why can't it be you? And it was, it was the first last February. And then the last couple of days, Friday night, he got his first hit since having his leg amputated two days before he drove in his first run with a sacrifice spot. And you see it picked up by Sports Center, picked up by World News Tonight, picked up by MLB Network.

And you're just seeing these kids changing lives because then other kids in their families are coming out to watch them [01:33:00] play who are also missing a leg and are seeing him play baseball. So if he's playing baseball, why can't they play baseball? So, you know, you think about the minutiae that a lot of us deal with, with first world problems.

And then you see the happiness. that kids who have real issues are dealing with. every time if you have a prosthetic leg or missing an arm or in a wheelchair, every time you leave the house, the spotlight is on you. You don't plan and you either embrace it or you shrink from it and watching our kids embrace it has been the greatest gift of all 

Kush: so bad as Bob.

Yeah, it sounds like the work you have put in with adaptive athletes and also. I believe the challenged athletes foundation,

your contributions [01:34:00] have come back to you, maybe even as a gift to you and being able to keep you inspired every day. So fantastic. I want to ask you, you have spent a lifetime around endurance athletes, you know, the, uh, the best pros to everyday grinders, right? What have you learned about longevity? Any hard won strategies, any surprising things you have learned about not just staying fit, but staying hungry.

And fulfilled as the agent. Yeah, it's 

Bob: interesting because I see I think With what i've seen lately in triathlon is, you know A lot of you guys who move on as sebastian keen lay and jan for dana when they retire [01:35:00] Um, it's like well, what's next? it's almost like a professional athlete. Uh, it's not almost, it is a professional athlete, but it's almost like, you know, your professional soccer players, professional baseball players, all those guys, you know, your career is basically over by 40, very few, or even get that long.

So you've, that's your life. That's been your life goal. What's next. And seeing our athletes getting into CrossFit and getting into totally different. Like Ryan Hall was a. 204 58 marathoner and was skinny as a rail. And between 2007, 2011, he ran nine or 10 marathons, all of them under two 12.

And then he was done. it was fried. And now he's doing all these cool adventures. He's become like a, a bodybuilder, not a Bali builder, but he's very large human being. We covered a thing he did a few years ago where he [01:36:00] was. I want to run a mile every mile every quarter he would stop and do weights and then he would do another quarter and do weights another quarter do it.

So the whole idea is, could he run a sub 5 minute mile doing, lifting every quarter mile? And it was, it was really wild. And he did. I forget how much he lifted. But it was, it was a lot. It was a frickin ton, but he's, he says like, as a competitor, if somebody's a competitor and they're a runner, a triathlete, a rock climber, whatever it be, they're going to eventually move into something else and bring that same competitive nature with that.

And how can I be better? How can I be the best? perfect example. It was a woman named Jamie Whitmore, who was a, you know, what Xterra is. It's like you swim, you mountain bike and you run. The mountain bike rides are really brutal. You're on the flume trail up in Tahoe and, you know, what, 11, 12, 000 [01:37:00] feet and that type of stuff.

So she won 37 Xterras. One World Championship and then she was having pain in the back of her leg and the doctors are like, yeah, we can't find anything. Maybe you're just imagining it or maybe you have a low threshold of pain for somebody who's riding her bike up at 11, 12, 000 feet. They don't have a low threshold of pain.

It turned out she had a tumor wrapped around a sciatic nerve. And she knew when they cut that away, she probably would end up with drop foot. It wouldn't be able to run again, which means her career as a Paralympic athlete, as an XTERRA athlete would be over. So that's exactly what happened. And I actually called her husband, Courtney at the hospital and said, Jamie will need sport when the most competitive people I've ever seen in my life, she actually raced during, you know, Ned's era, you know, Ned, she was, uh, just getting into it when Ned was, uh, still Ned's always been relevant, but yeah, [01:38:00] so anyways, we got, we told her about paracycling she got into paracycling.

And in 2016, she won a gold and a silver medal in Rio in her second athletic career. And she, and then she went to the Paralympics in 2020 and then 2024. And she's wants to go in 2028 when somebody is a competitor and somebody has got that, you know, that drive, 

it doesn't go away.

Kush: Next we have our final clip, which is we go into the world of open water swimming. This clip is from a conversation with Sarah Thomas, whose relationship with endurance was reshaped after cancer and then rebuilt stroke past stroke. What stood out in this episode wasn't the distance she's from. Yes, she did become the first person to swim across the English channel four times.

She made [01:39:00] history, but then in this one we talk about. Patience that she brings to suffering, staying present, letting the water set the terms, and learning how to begin again in a change body. The full conversation goes deeper into recovery identity and what it means to trust yourself over long stretches of uncertainty.

Sarah: was laying on my back in an exam room with a needle poking out of me when she's talking to me through this, And I remember just tears, just falling out of my eyes. Thinking this can't be real, right?

I am, I'm too young for this. why is this happening to me? what did I do? and then, it, it's just, I can't even, it's almost like there's really no words to describe what that moment feels like unless you've actually lived through it. but I remember I had to call my husband, and I finish up the appointment, I'm [01:40:00] in my truck and just sobbing hysterically and he's a hundred miles away at work and I've gotta call him and be like, I need you to come home right now like I am.

I don't know how we're gonna get through this. truly probably the first month after that was one of the hardest months that I've lived through. Because you don't know at the beginning, right? You have no idea. What's gonna happen? You don't know what your prognosis is, you don't know what treatment's gonna look like.

I went from never stepping foot in a doctor's office, my annual exams, to, all of a sudden I have oncologists and surgeons and tests and blood work and it's just this whirlwind of stuff and you don't know where it's gonna end it. None of it makes sense.

You don't speak the language yet. You don't know the doctors yet. Some doctors have really great bedside manner and they wanna talk to you and explain it. All other doctors are just [01:41:00] cold and callous and you walk out thinking oh my gosh, I'm gonna die. and so it's just the most terrifying experience that I would never wish upon another soul in this world, because no one deserves that.

No one should have to go through that. and it's scary, you know? And I'm lucky my husband is the most incredible human on the planet. and he wanted to be there for all of it and was supportive through all of it. Family is amazing. So I had just this huge network of support to get through it, but that doesn't change that it's lonely and it's terrifying.

Kush: Yeah. This was, a life that you had pre-diagnosis and then That life ended once you got this. Yeah. It sounds like a very difficult time. 

Sarah: What was your relationship to swimming at that time and then at what point? Sarah, think all of us.

I'm Just fascinated [01:42:00] that you didn't retreat, you kind of doubled down. I'm guessing it wasn't quite as simple as that. So can you talk about how, swimming played a role in your life as you were going through this mayhem? So I feel from the beginning I was in this constant battle with my doctors of when can I swim?

How much can I swim? What am I allowed to do? And they were all super encouraging of Swim as much as you want to swim. And so I swam quite a bit through chemo. I wasn't setting records, I wasn't doing anything crazy, but it made me feel better in so many ways. I mean, top of the line emotionally, it made me feel better, because I could put on a swim cap and just go swim laps in the pool and nobody would know what was going on with me, right?

And it was a moment of peace where I could feel like I [01:43:00] was myself and I didn't have to answer questions. I didn't look funny. You know, I could go and be me in a way that I couldn't do when I was not in the pool. And so swimming through especially during chemo, was this huge blessing, where I could truly find.

Find peace.

I could put my swim cap on, go for a swim. I was anonymous. No one knew what was going on unless they were a friend. I didn't have to think about cancer. I could swim. and I don't know truly what I would've done without being able to at least have, you know, an hour, a few times a week where I could step away from the chaos and go to where it was familiar and peaceful and calm.

a core memory, is the first one that I was able to get in after I'd gone through some of my initial biopsies and tests. I had to be out of the water for eight weeks from being poked and [01:44:00] prodded and having a port placed and all of that. So I had to kinda step away. And then, by the time I was able to get back in, I'd already been doing chemo for about a month.

I had already lost all my hair and I was terrified, as to what It was gonna feel like to get back in the water. I actually had a couple friends come meet me 'cause I was really scared to go to the pool. and then I remember kind of slipping into the water and standing there for a moment before pushing off the wall and swimming.

And I made it about half a length and then I felt the weight of everything kind of drop off and it was oh, I still know how to float. And I hadn't even realized that. I was afraid that I wouldn't even be able to swim anymore. And realizing I still float. It was this turning point moment of all of it where I'm I'm gonna be okay because no matter what, I still float.

And so I swam not very long. And I was exhausted after probably 30 minutes, [01:45:00] but just having that moment to be like, I'm gonna be okay. I float. really helped me through the rest of my treatment. And so I did try to swim as much as I could possibly swim without pushing it. And there was a couple times I overdid it, my husband had to drive me home.

so I kind of learned some limits and boundaries about what my body was capable of. But my doctors and nurses were pretty confident that just how active I stayed during chemo actually really helped me manage all the chemo symptoms. So I wasn't super duper sick. I had pretty decent energy levels.

obviously it's chemo and you feel like garbage. but I think swimming really helped me just because I was in such a better emotional state than if I had just dropped everything out. I did, I swam as much as I could during chemo. it was a little more tricky, after my surgery and then when we got into radiation, 'cause I had terrible burns.

but as I am progressing through my cancer treatments, I start to talk to my doctors [01:46:00] Hey, I have a really big swim planned, in September of 2019, right? So we're in the middle of 2018. When I'm going through my treatments, I'm I've got this big swim and it's gonna take place in about 18 months.

And do you think I'll be able to do this? And they're looking at me I am a psycho, right? They're what? you have cancer? and I just. I couldn't put it out of my mind. Right, because as we went through, as I got through chemo, my body responded really well to chemo, it shrunk the tumor to nothing.

So when they did my surgery, they could tell that chemo had knocked it all out. So I when I had finished chemo in May of 2018, pretty good since that I was gonna be okay. Right. I still had a long way to go with treatment, but now I can start thinking about the future a little bit more.

And that's where like, I think having the swimming goal out there, helped push me through because I'll say I did [01:47:00] 25 rounds of radiation, five weeks of radiation and it made me sicker than chemo did. And I am pretty certain that if I hadn't had big plans and goals for the future, I might have just have given into it.

So, you know, I'm talking to my doctors. We definitely made surgical decisions based off of my upcoming swimming goals. like my doctors were amazing. They worked with me so much because they could see that this woman is insane and she needs this. as I'm progressing.

So I finished my radiation treatment in late August of 2018. two weeks after I finished radiation. I got the all clear from my surgeon 'cause I had terrible burns in my armpit. But I got the all clear from my surgeon to do that 10 K race, that I had started with. And so people were like, Sarah, you are not ready to swim at 10 K yet.

And I'm like, I kind of have to. And so, it was this full circle moment where it's [01:48:00] my very first big marathon swim that changed my life and now I'm coming back to it, two weeks after I'm finishing cancer treatment. And it was slow. It was the slowest time I'd ever done on that course.

And it didn't even matter because it was just my moment to be like, all right, I win. like cancer tried to destroy me, but this is my moment to be like, I got it right. I can still be me, I can still do this. I have a long way to go. but I win, cancer didn't beat me and so I.

That I, there's a picture of me walking out of the water at the end of that swim and I've got my arms over my head. And that moment in my life is probably just as impactful as that very first swim, 11 years prior. where swimming has just, to go back to is it my identity?

Yeah. Swimming has just carried me. There's so many hard moments of my life and it's just always been there in whatever form it can give me. Right? I don't have to be the [01:49:00] fastest or the strongest or anything, I can just be free in the water. and just enjoying the feeling of floating. 

without swimming, I don't know how my cancer treatment would've gone. it really did propel me forward and give me the mental strength, I think, to keep moving and keep focused. The future and then, kind of to progress the story more than you may be asked.

it was about, two or three days after I finished that swim, my English channel boat captain emailed me, because you have to pay a deposit for a swim a year in advance. he'd been following me on Facebook, he knew what I had gone through. And so he's sending me this email and he was like, young lady, I, which is so flattering because, I was not feeling like a young lady at that time.

this email is, young lady, I hate to ask you this. I know what you've been going through, but are you still planning to come next year? And I think [01:50:00] it took me, all of an hour to really am I gonna be ready? I have a year. I literally have a year. I just finished cancer treatment weeks ago.

I still have burns. Am I gonna be ready for this monumental challenge? when I had originally booked the English Channel four way swim two years prior, it had felt more a given, right? I had come off a 104 mile swim that took me 67 hours. This English channel swim was not gonna take as long.

It's 80 miles as the crow flies. I wasn't even all that nervous about it before my cancer diagnosis. And now I'm a year out and it's no longer this guarantee in any way. And I had to really do some soul searching and say I've been talking about this, I've been pushing for it, but now it's real.

Now I have to put money down on it. Am I gonna be ready in a year? And I emailed them back and I was like, I'm gonna be ready. I'll see you next September. There was a lot that happened in that [01:51:00] year. it was a really hard year. but we got ready in a year.