He Ran a Marathon in North Korea. I Had Questions

Ageless Athlete Recording - Johan Nylander
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Kush: [00:00:00] Johan, I always start with this question, which is, where are you right now and what did you have for breakfast today? 



Johan Nylander: well, I am in, uh, Hong Kong in my, my apartment, my living room, my right next to my Messi bookshelf. as you can see, whatever breakfast. Well, I'm having coffee for breakfast. I'm in a training period for, for my upcoming marathon.

So my breakfast now, it's more healthy, more nutritious than normal. So normally I start with, uh, uh, like a protein powder mixed with Shia seeds, a lot of vitamin C. So I drink that and then, and then bananas and, and, and fruits. I normally start my day with that. So it's a lot of nutrition, a lot of vitamins, but not too heavy.

Right. So I can both, prepare for the marathon, but also, have a fresh mind for my workday. 

Kush: Sounds nutritious [00:01:00] and sounds light, sounds like. a nice start to your morning, let me start with this, Johan, so many people listening may not know who you are. So for people who are just meeting you, how do you describe yourself?

Johan Nylander: that's a big question. so I am from Sweden. I live in Hong Kong. I've been living here for 14 years. My, my day job as an Asia correspondent for a Swedish, uh, newspaper, do industry. Uh, I used to write regularly for CNN and Forbes. I've been writing a few books about China and, and Mongolia and, and, uh, Asia, but the region here.

So my day-to-day job is to like cover political and economical, uh, situation here. trade war, right? It's, uh, it's been very hectic few years. and then like a, apart from that, over the last few years I've started to do a lot of [00:02:00] running, really starting to make some lifestyle changes. Like I, I, I think I've had a quite like lousy lifestyle before with like a lot of bad food, a lot of drinking, a lot of stress.

late nights and like a lot of work stress and so I'm trying to make, make a, a change. So yeah. So both a journalist and, trying to be, trying to become something as a runner. 

Kush: Johan, you lead something like a double life. You are a journalist, you run and you are from Sweden and you've been based in Hong Kong for a while now.

How did that combination come together?



Johan Nylander: I think I've always been very curious. About the world. I'm also a bit restless. I, I find [00:03:00] it difficult to, to stay put in one place. It goes through my writing also. Like I, I get, I find it a bit tedious to write about the same topic all the time. So I like to explore new topics, new countries,new challenges.

uh, moving to Hong Kong, I mean, we, we really didn't have a plan. I had been a correspondent in, uh, in London during the financial crisis, and we were. We were looking to move somewhere in the world. We were looking at the map, we were looking at New York, uh, new Delhi, Tokyo, and we ended up in, in Hong Kong.

And I had never been to Hong Kong before. I didn't know anyone here. you know, grew up watching a lot of Bruce Lee and Jackie Shan movies. And the only thing I knew that was if we move to Hong Kong, it's gonna be exciting, right? It's not gonna be boring. And if we don't like it, we can always, you know, continue to somewhere else.

We live on a small island called LA Island. Like I have the water. South China Sea, just like 15 meter from my, from my window [00:04:00] here. I have to take a ferry into central every day. So it's a small island with, you know, wild boars and wild dogs and cobras and a lot of snakes and beaches.

Good hiking, and then 20 minutes with the ferry to the world's most densely populated city. Right. So it's, uh, it's good contrasts and I think it, it suits my lifestyle, as you said. Um, I live like two, two kinds of life. Like, one is, is like a lot of, uh, exercise and being out in nature and climbing mountains and, and the other one is just a lot of work and, uh, you know, hanging out at the foreign correspondence club with other journalists, So, yeah, it's, it's a difficult balance sometimes, 

Kush: Johan. Not only do you lead. A double life professionally, like a runner and a journalist. You also seem to inhabit two contrasting physical worlds because the place that you live in is not how I would [00:05:00] picture Hong Kong. The wildlife you describe and the quiet and the nature that against the place you take your boat to, to go to work.

That's what people think about when they imagine Hong Kong. Yeah, the urbanity, the, the scratch caps. So you were looking for something a little bit different. Did Hong Kong live up to its promise? 

Johan Nylander: Oh yeah, for sure. Hong Kong is never boring. it's a crazy place. some people say that, you know, New York is high speed, but.

That is nothing compared to Hong Kong. Hong Kong is like New York on ecstasy. it's high speed all the time. it's almost addictive. like every time I walk down the street, it feels like I'm walking down the street for the first time because things have changed. Things have changed since LA last time.

Like shops opening, shops closing, uh, always some construction happening. Uh, always. it's a city full of life. Uh, [00:06:00] it's the world's most densely populated city. There are twice as many skyscrapers as in New York. But at the same time, uh, as you said, not many people know about this, but some 80% of Hong Kong is just, uh, green.

It's, it's, uh, it's mountains, it's hills, it's beaches. Hong Kong is, is fantastic for hiking. It's fantastic for, uh, uh, running. It's, uh, for sailing, for, kayaking, canoeing. I, I saw some statistics the other day that Hong Kong people are the one who walks the most, in the world. I think New York was maybe number two.

Is that good cities for walking. so good public transport and a lot of, uh, and good walking. A city is, it's a cliche, but a city of contrasts. Like you have all the skyscrapers, uh, all the madness, right? All the speed. But same time, just like next door, you have all these mountains and hiking and uh, yeah, wild animals, mon monkeys and, uh, [00:07:00] yeah, it's, it, it's quite fascinating place.

It's really a fascinating place. I, I, I don't think I can ever leave. 

Kush: Beautiful. Johan, you certainly paint an unexpected portrait of this city I'm just wondering if you might have a second career as a possible. Tourism ambassador for Hong Kong, because you obviously love that place, not that Hong Kong needs more people, but, uh, it is obvious that you have, uh, been able to, explore the city's contrasts in a way that most outsiders have not.

Johan Nylander: it's, I mean, at, at the same time as it's extremely beautiful, I also have been standing in clouds of tear gas, during the, the pro-democratic protests and, uh, you know, being chasing down by the police.

And I've seen like press freedom, freedom of speech being eroded here. So [00:08:00] again, it, I. It's,it's a city that like, it tears your emotions apart. It, it's the most beautiful place you can imagine, and so many things happening. But yeah, maybe we don't need to be into detail about the political situation in, uh, in Hong Kong.

We can leave it for another day. 

Kush: Okay. All right. Fair enough. Yes. Uh, as, as curious as I am, we will certainly save it for another time. You just talked about training for a marathon coming up. Can you tell us what this race is all about? 

Johan Nylander: well, this marathon is in two weeks. It's the Hong Kong Standard short term Marathon.

It's the big marathon in, in Hong Kong. I think some 70,000 people running. So it's naturally much smaller than New York or London or Tokyo. I did my first marathon. I'm, I'm 53 now, and I did my first marathon a year ago, 52. it, it, it, it, it is fantastic right? to be in this age.

And, you know, so many [00:09:00] people around me, told me, tells me like, don't do it. Be careful. And some other people around me just tell me, yeah, do it. Come on. so running these marathons for me it's, it's very much like a celebration of life. It's, it's not easy. It's far from, you see, it's, it's physically difficult, it's mentally painful.

and, and maybe because, because of, of all these challenges and all this pain, it's is why I enjoy it so much. you kind of, it teaches you that, like you, you. You need to fight for the good things in life. so, yeah, so I'm, I'm, I'm training for this marathon now and, uh, I'm really looking forward to it.

Kush: You want to clarify, you said you ran your first marathon a year ago, I believe you have been running for much longer. 

Johan Nylander: No, I mean, not really. I mean, I'm kind of new to running. I've been running on and off. I did a half marathon some years [00:10:00] ago. I've done some boxing, some, some mo high tie,some wing shoe and so on, but just a little bit and I'd be going to the gym on and off, you know, I mean, like, like most people you, if I, I, I should hit the gym and you get a gym card and you don't really go much, but Life has changed for me a lot. Like, uh, I had a very challenging experience two years ago. Like, uh, I spent a lot of time in, in the hospital. 

Kush: I would love to get into that, but I want to just ask a precursor question, which is 

Johan Nylander: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure, sure, 

Kush: sure.

You, you are in your fifties and you have dabbled in a couple of different sports, so what is it about running that was attractive? Why did you decide to pick up this sport?

Johan Nylander: It was almost a lifesaver for me. mentally, I, I was really in a, in a quite low mental space. I felt quite anxious, like a bit bit paranoid. I was thinking like [00:11:00] someone was standing behind me. also I didn't feel physically very strong and I felt age catching up. I was going and I had been running a little bit before, but, but not much.

one day when I was like physically, mentally in a, like, really challenging place and, I, I got off the ferry to, to, to go to town and, and the Hong Kong marathon was happening and I just saw all this energy, all the people clapping, people running, and it's so much positive energy and, and so much, Like good feelings. And I was standing there like feeling fucking lousy about life and I thought, wow, I'm gonna sign up next year. then I was 51 and I, next year I'm gonna do it. And at the time, I, I, I could hardly walk. Like, I couldn't run one, one kilometer. I, I was in really bad shape, but I, it was just the marathon called my name.

it's like, come on, like we [00:12:00] are, we are waiting for you. And, uh, yeah, so when I could sign up, I signed up, and when I signed up, I could run maybe 20 kilometer. And I still had, I had like five months to, you know, go from 20 to 42. But no, it, it was really a defining moment for me. Like running, I wouldn't say saved my life, but it, it brought life back to me in a way.

It was very important to me. And it, it came. Yeah. Yeah. I dunno if it makes any sense. 



Kush: it, it does, I have felt the transformative, uh, power of sport in my life. I know that, even times when I couldn't climb, like I've been climbing and then doing other sports for most of my adult life, and it just has allowed me to be present and [00:13:00] use all my faculties in a way that I can't in every life.

Like, it's just this powerful way for me to interact with, not just with nature, but with my own self. So I think I can relate, but your journey is you. yes. You talked about how it has been this force in getting you past your health concerns. So where are you with your health now and how has the journey with running helped contribute?

Johan Nylander: actually, physically, I, I don't think I ever been stronger, which is bloody fantastic being 53, and I feel like physically, like really good. maybe when I was 19, I, I had to do military service when I was 19 back in Sweden. at that time I was quite strong. but no, I, like physically, I, I feel really good.

Like I, I go to gym, I do some boxing. I do a lot of [00:14:00] don long distance running. Um.

So it, it helped me tremendously. Like back pain is gone, knee pain is gone. Like, I always had some pain in, you know, the, the wrists here, like an H thing, right. much, much better, like neck. Like I, I sleep better. like physically, never felt better. it's such a, such a good feeling. Like, uh, I can't describe because I mean, a lot of my friends, probably a lot of your friends and friends of the listeners on this podcast, you know, I mean, I have a lot of friends who, like, they sit in the bar every night, drinking beer, complaining about back pain, complaining about this, complaining about that, but never willing to, to do anything about it.

And I think when you reach a certain point, it's really, it is really important. That you start lifting weights,do running or do do something for your physique. I mean, if you don't, I mean, upper muscle, they, they get smaller every year. I I'll back at [00:15:00] weaker. so I think if you, if you do running to do, do training, you, you, you have the power to become stronger, to feel better.

And, and if you don't, I mean, you will slide like physically and, and mentally. And also when you feel physically better. When, when you go to the gym, when you go running, you get all this and endorphins and serotonins and hormones. So naturally your, your mind gets stronger, you feel happier. you feel, you know, happy with yourself, happy with the world.

So this, this is been a very positive journey. Like, I'm, I'm so grateful, I'm so grateful, to myself that I've, I've done this right and I, I am doing it. it's, it, it is really changed my life. 

Kush: So 

Johan Nylander: brilliant 

Kush: Johan. Running and outdoor sports can be so powerful. And I'm also assuming, I'm also guessing that this didn't happen in a vacuum.

Like you put your running shoes on and you went for a run, but it sounds like the [00:16:00] impact went beyond the trail because you talked about how running has enhanced or changed different parts of your life. So can you talk a little bit about some changes you made? So one thing that you talked about is how you have this, uh.

This diet plan that you have put in place, the foods you're eating, can you talk about how you have changed other parts of your life or those changes have happened to compliment this new sport? 

Johan Nylander: I can still have periods of really bad lifestyle choices. Like I can have periods of like too much drinking, of too much, you know, kebab and pizza and hamburgers and, and when I have those periods, I, I feel really bad.

Like the bad effects. How, like you see it under your eyes and you, you feel it in your back and your wrist, the, the wrist, the [00:17:00] bad feelings come, come back quickly. and the good thing with this is I think in our age, if, if you make some positive lifestyle changes, the, the positive aspects, they come quite quickly.

If you cut down drinking and you cut down like sugar, and, and you think a bit of your diet, uh, the, the positive effects, they, they come quickly. And, and I, I become very sensitive to, to what I eat. so I'm trying to like, think, think of my diet, I have quite light breakfast, as I said, a lot of fruit for breakfast.

quite light. And I drink a lot of coffee, quite light lunch. And, uh, then I have more for dinner, when I'm in the, in the sofa watching Netflix. trying to, I'm not an absolutist, but I really feel when I'm, when I make the right choices, that the positive effects, They come quickly, and it's very encouraging. yeah. I mean, it's not rocket science, just [00:18:00] like. Stop. Go to like the, the fast food chain. Stop having crisps or wine gums or, or gummy bears, like, things that I'm quite addicted to Stop having soda with sugar and fruit and, and, and meat and vegetables and like spaghetti and rice, just things.

A friend of mine said we should eat things that your grandmother would, recognize as food. if my grandmother saw a lot of the things that, that we are eating today, she would go like, what is this? why do you, why do you put this in your body? So I think just, you don't need to follow in, like strict diet sometimes.

Just, just use common sense. don't glp down sugar water. don't eat deep fried things with, with a lot of salt and, and, and sugar on it. it's just is just use, use some, some common sense. And yeah, I, I feel a huge difference. 

Kush: Did you bring those, uh, changes or did you learn about, healthy eating yourself?

Did you look into some [00:19:00] resources? Did you find a coach to help you with either your food or actually even your running? 



Johan Nylander: yeah. Well, not really coach, but I do a lot of reading. I'm interested in these things I follows, some people on social media who I, who I respect and, and can learn from.

I mean, you, including actually Kush. Kush, uh, I mean, that's how we, we got to know each other. the, the advice I get from the people that you interview. Yeah. trying to bet yourself, trying to, a lot about

health advice, good habits. And diet, and there's a lot of different opinions out there, so you need to be a bit careful. There's a lot of people who say, you have to do this and you should not do that. And sometimes people are a bit too assertive, but that they are. Right. so I think you need to listen to a lot of voices and, and be a bit skeptical to who you listen to, who you trust.

some people say you should only eat meat. Some people say you should only eat vegetables. [00:20:00] and I eat meat and vegetables and, but try to have a good balance. And living in Hong Kong, I mean the, the kitchen is. It's quite good. It's, it's, it's based on steamed vegetables and, and rice.

and, and you don't eat too much. So, uh, it's, yeah. But yeah, I think on social media there's, there's tons of good advice on, on YouTube and, and Instagram and Everywhere's. Tons of good advice, but it's very important to take, take it with a pinch of salt in double meaning. and listen to more voices than, than just the few.

Kush: One more question I had just about Hong Kong is, do you train mostly in the island that you live in or do you also run in the streets? Of the city? 

Johan Nylander: Yeah. Yeah. It's a good question. So when I run here on the island where I live, uh, it's very hilly. Like it's like green Hill, so it's hard on the legs.

It's up and down and up and down. And in the summer, I'm quite afraid because there's so many [00:21:00] snakes, there is a lot of cobras and, like green pit wipes and boa and pythons, or, I'm terrified. Like when I was last summer, I was out running and, and like a meter away from me, like a cobra was standing, you know, with the shield up, whoa.

Yeah. And I acted like a true alpha male. I, I, I screamed and I yanked. but, uh, to, to run on the island is very good to build muscle because it's very up and down, it steep hills it. But when I do more long distance, like 10, 20, 30 kilometers, I go to town and you can run by the waterfront by, uh, Victoria Harbor.

they have opened up almost all the waterfront along Hong Kong Island. So it is, it is beautiful. You run right next to the skyscrapers and you have the Victoria Harbor one side and like this, this like jungle of skyscrapers glittering [00:22:00] next to you. And it's, it's really cool. it's really fantastic.

And sometimes you need to run on the small streets, like in, in one shi in North Point and, you know, next to massage places and noodle bars and traffic lights and, you know, families. So the air quality is, is not the best, but it's, it's okay. As long as you run by the water, the air, air quality is, um, is not too bad.

So you can, here in Hong Kong, you can run on the trails. There's a lot of trail running. You can run in the mountains up and down. There's a lot of good, uh, trail running. yeah, there's, I can just mention it. there's a documentary called Four Trails for Trail. It's maybe the best documentary I've, I've watched in my life.

it's about this competition, 300, 300 kilometer competition, four, four trails they're running and it's like up and down, up and down all these mountains and, and trails in, uh, in Hong Kong. So you can, you can either hit the mountains or you can hit the streets in Hong Kong. So it's, it's really cool place for running.[00:23:00] 

Kush: You are blowing my mind. Yes. You know, I am an outdoors person at heart, but I also love cities. I grew up in a big city and just that image of, uh, running by the harbor, surrounded by skyscrapers. That just sounds so seductive. Did you also find a community of runners? And I'm also curious if running opened maybe a new door into your new home in this country, far away from where you grew up?

Johan Nylander: It's a very good question. Yes. Running has opened. Oh, yes. Oh, that's a very good question. Thank you so much. It, it opened so many new doors for me to new parts of Hong Kong, uh, like physically in Hong Kong. Yes, absolutely. I spend more times in the hills. I spend more time, you know, like a Friday evening instead of sitting in the bar.

I spend running by the [00:24:00] waterfront next to the skyscrapers, uh, you know, two, three hours. it really opens up new doors. It opened the doors in me. I getting to know myself better. it gave me a lot of new friends,people see me as, you know, not just, a drunk journalist, but as a runner, like people view me differently.

Yeah. I mean, it's a compliment that, that people see me in a, in a new light. And I mean, I'm quite humbled about that, right? I'm sure if my son of some of my old friends from Sweden, if they listen to this podcast, they're just gonna laugh their pants off, right? But, uh, no, it really opened up a lot of new doors for me.

Like I, I made a lot of. New friends, both here on the island and, uh, in town. New friendships? absolutely. For sure. and, uh, a new part of Hong Kong. yes, I think that is a very good question. It's, it, it's a very important thing with, with running and, and with, if, if you join, say, a [00:25:00] boxing club or,rock climbing or mountain climbing as you are doing, I think it's, it changes you on many, on many levels, right?

Opens a lot of doors. 

Kush: Johan, you are an acclaimed journalist and you are some somewhat of an expert in Asia, and does running help you as a journalist? 

Johan Nylander: yes, it clears my mind. I've always, my, my way of writing has always been maybe not my day-to-day news writing, but if I write my books or a more complicated feature story, I always go for long walks.

and I, I write, I write when I'm walking, like, so I, I, I write with my feet and I type with my fingers, and to do long distance running. It, it clears your mind. it, cleans out all the, all the voices in your mind, uh, make things more clear. I mean, [00:26:00] it's, my job is very, very stressful.

It's super stressful. I have deadlines every day. I mean, writing about Venezuela during the weekend and, and, and today some, it's very stressful and. To deal with the stress. I mean, there are different ways of dealing with stress. It's there you have negative ways of dealing with stress and you have positive ways of dealing with stress and, and going for long walks and going, running, doing physical, like challenging physical exercise.

it really helps you to deal with day-to-day stress because this kind of stress, I mean, we, we can all feel it. I mean, we all feel it in our life. It, it can really bring you down. it affects your, uh, like believe in yourself. It how, how cool you can be, your self-confidence. It, so to, to go for long runs.

It's, oh, when I come back again, I feel like I'm breathe and, and my writing goes easier again. Yeah. So it really helps me a lot from that perspective. 

Kush: Absolutely. Yes. I can see how it brings. [00:27:00] Focus, clarity of mind. But I wanna go a little bit, beyond that, and I'm just curious if running helps you understand a place differently if it gives you access to people, to stories, maybe moments, because you have run, you've gone running in all kinds of places.

So has it allowed you to understand a place differently than you would otherwise? 

Johan Nylander: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. running marathons, uh, running to start with, running marathons can also help you to understand, different, societies, right? Because I mean, if, if you, if you go traveling to different countries, or a marathon, it's a really cool way to, to discover an a, a, a new society and a new country.

I mean, you can travel as a tourist. Uh, you spend time in the, the hotel, you go shopping, you go to restaurants, you know, I found that deadly boring. [00:28:00] You can go traveling as a journalist, you make interviews. it's exciting, but quite stressful. And you focus on the journalist. You can go as a businessman.

Again, you are focused often in, you know, meeting rooms and, drinking with clients. But if you go traveling for a marathon, it's a very different approach to traveling. both at the marathon in itself. When you run through the streets and you interact with, people who are supporting you with the organization, how is it well or not well organized?

Like here in Hong Kong is just super well organized. Uh, everything is like perfect. I've been running in other countries where it's, it's really messy. Like they, they didn't even, you know, measure the, the length of the marathon, the streets, uh, correctly. And also like the days before the marathon and after the marathon.

Uh, I mean it's, that gives you another insight into, into different countries and I find that fascinating. [00:29:00] So I have been running in, in a few other countries and I am planning to, to go running in, in many different Asian countries because I'm curious about getting, learning about these Asian countries from doing long distance, running

Kush: well, 

Johan Nylander: running tourism. Yeah. 

Kush: You had, I heard you went running in North Korea. How did that even happen? 

Johan Nylander: Yeah, we did a Mar, uh, half marathon actually, in, um, North Korea in p Young. Last spring, I brought my son, he's 18. You know, it was pretty, pretty cool for him to be, to go to North Korea in that age.



Johan Nylander: I have been to North Korea one time before, and, but this was my first time to the capital, to Pyon, and we were the first foreigners, in the capital in five years. So it, it was like a big thing even for the local people there. When, when we [00:30:00] came and this, there's been an annually marathon in, in Pyongyang, the Pyon Young International Marathon.

And, uh, there's a travel company, choreo Tours. They're one of the organizers And, uh, it is not too many. It's like a few hundred people running, maybe five, 600 people running. So it's quite small, half international, half local. So the locals are like often elite runners, either teenagers or adults.

And the internationals are often Russian and Chinese and uh, and then from the rest of the world. it's quite difficult to go to North Korea at the moment, but normally it's not too difficult. You can't go if you're American or from South Korea or from Japan or from Malaysia.

If you're from these four countries, you can't go to North Korea. But, but, uh, if you have other passport, it's, it's not too difficult. We signed up. I, I, I saw an ad for it on, on Facebook and I signed up [00:31:00] within five minutes. yeah, it was, it was pretty, it was pretty fascinating. 

Kush: Quick clarification, you said you were the first westerner to go there in a few years, but you also said that half of the people in this marathon are from overseas.

So how does that reconcile? 

Johan Nylander: Yeah, we were the first, uh, foreigners to the capitol in, in five years. So they, this was also the first time they had the marathon in five, six years. It's been, I see. Yeah. Yeah. Since, since COVID, North Korea, isolated itself during COVID and then after that, the political situation has been quite rough with international sanctions.

and North Korea naturally has a aligned closer with to Russia and sending troops to, to Ukraine. so they, they may make a lot of money from Russia and from China at the moment and from, I think so they haven't really opened the borders yet, but I think it's coming. they're gonna do the marathon this year.

Again, [00:32:00] it's sold out in 30 minutes, I think. this year. Yeah. 

Kush: So are you saying there's a small chance that I might open my Facebook tomorrow and I might see an ad for the Ong Yang? International marathon and 

Johan Nylander: Yeah, but you, you, you have to sign up for 2027 because this year's marathon is, this, is it, it was, uh, fully booked in 30 minutes or one hour I think.

Kush: Yeah. You know, I think I've lost my abilities to go there because I have a US passport, so, uh, yes. I think they would not let me, actually, I'm, yeah, I'm Stu Fi I, you know, we keep hearing about North Korea in the news, in the us and yes, I mean, America has some level of fascination with this country society that is so different, and I would've imagined that we would've had some people visiting from the West.

But the fact that you were the first person in five years, I mean, [00:33:00] that blows my mind. I. Somehow we are able to get all this news about North Korea and hear about these interactions. But, but, the fact is that nobody had visited that place. And also sounds like you didn't hesitate, you know, this invitation came up, and you, you signed up.

So, okay. so tell us, what's the first thing you remember noticing when you arrived? 

Johan Nylander: it's like, wow, we are in North Korea. It's just the feeling of holy shit, we are North Korea. that's like the first war, right? But and the second thing is that when you start to meet the people there, the, the guides and people from the Ministry of Sports, came to greet us.

And like you realize. It's just normal people, right? it's, uh, they're not from Mars, right? They are, they're not aliens. It's just normal people. if you've been to South Korea, you quickly realize that the culture in North Korea is more or less the same. I mean, it's not very, it's not less developed.

It's not very rich. it's a [00:34:00] bit stricter, or more respectful, I would say. like the first thing you see when you sit in the bus from the airport into into town, it's just how big Pyy is and how many skyscrapers and tall buildings and high rise buildings, they are, men, not skyscrapers, but buildings up to 80, 80 floors, uh, 40 floors everywhere.

it's quite developed city. And, I mean, I don't want to paint a rosey picture. It is, it is a brutal dictatorship. but it's more developed than, than people think. and okay, what you see in Pyongyang might not correlate what's happening on, on the countryside, What's happening, Pyongyang, that's it is more developed, it's richer than, than the rest of the country.

But it's, um, in terms of infrastructure, it, it looks very developed. it looks like a mix of, uh, ULA Bour in Mongolia and, Kuala Lumpur in, in Malaysia, right? So old Soviet style architecture mixed with like, [00:35:00] modern, coal buildings, most people have mobile phones, like, uh, smartphones.

They are sitting on the bus as you know, scrolling and texting and, you know. Watching Premier League and, mobile phone games and so on. they use QR codes for to pay payment in kiosks and, uh, and so on. you can see, Mercedes and BMW, and Chinese cars everywhere on, on the streets yeah.

And, uh, like solar panels are everywhere and so on. So it's, it's, it's much more developed than, than the people might, might think. and people are really kind, very open. It's, they have a good sense of humor. Like, we were out almost every night having drinks and singing, singing, karaoke, singing, dancing Queen and, and so on, singing Abba in the karaoke bars.

Yeah. people there, they have the same, you know, goals and ambitions that, that we have, you know, I mean, they wake up early in the morning, they take care of their families and kids, they go to work, work out every day, [00:36:00] and they come home and maybe go for some GIO with their friends,have dinner, maybe go to the movies, go to restaurants.

then of course it's, it's very poor. you can see poverty, of course, it's not as developed as South Korea by far. it gets very dark in the evenings. But yeah, I think this is important when you go traveling to, to realize that, that people are just people and, and we basically have their own same ambitious wherever you're from.

we all want the best for our families. We want the best for our neighbors, our community as well. I think it's very educational to, to go to countries like this and then going back to your questions by it, it was the marathon that, that made it, you know, possible for us to go there. yeah.

And then, when you do the marathon, so the reason we did the half marathon was that we wanted to take it really slow so we, we, we can stop and take photographs and, you know, do high fives with people who are, you know, supporting us on the streets. And when you run through the streets of [00:37:00] Pyongyang, it's, it's amazing.

maybe you've seen it on television. There's like military parades when they, you know, the military parading and, and you see this, they're displaying these missiles, these huge missiles. And there's where you're running, there's where you go running and Oh, so they combine 

Kush: the running with 

Johan Nylander: it's, no, no, no, no, no.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's the same place. It's not at the same time. it's just the same place. Uh, sure. I mean, it's the same avenues, it's the same street that's in, other footage you've see in these parades, and it's, 

Kush: ah, yes. Yeah. 

Johan Nylander: So you run path, this like propaganda, statues and propaganda posters of, of the Kim family.

and it's quite bombastic, but also on the side of the streets you have people clapping hands and all shouting like, bally, bally, bally, bally, which means hurry up quicker, quicker, faster. and some kids, some kids maybe, you know, eight or 10 years old, they, they wanted to run with my son, [00:38:00] so they, they kept on, you know, sprinting next to my son, you know, bally, bally ballet.

So you get some nice interaction with people there. yeah, it makes me quite happy. 

Kush: Did you have an interpreter or somehow did they speak English? Like it sounds like you were able to interact quite, 

Johan Nylander: frequently. Yeah. I mean, when you are in the country, you need, not during the marathon, not during the, the race, but otherwise you always have some people with you, people from the Ministry of Sports.

'cause we were not there as tourists officially, we were there as, uh, like a sports, delegation. So men, people from Ministry of Sports or people from, uh, who are guides and they're with you all the time. people in south, in North Korea, they, the kids, the young people, they speak some English.

we had some, you know, low level communication in, in English. My, my Korean is, is not very good. just a few words, but. We couldn't, maybe not have like a deep conversations, but just some [00:39:00] greetings and, and so on. then in the evenings, uh, then with, with the interpreter, you could have like normal conversations with people.

but you need to be a little bit careful. Like you, you can speak about most anything, but don't criticize the leaders. Don't come with your Western ideas about, we're gonna liberate the minds of the Koreans. But we had like a lot of interesting conversations. I mean, everybody knows about Donald Trump.

Everybody has opinions about Trump and they were making jokes, right? Oh, the whole world are so worried about Trump, but we are not like, 'cause nothing changes for us. We already have a bad relationship with America. So nothing, nothing has changed for us. So you have you know, interesting conversations about world politics.

So, it's restricted how much they can know and learn about the outside world, but they're not dumb. And information always, you know, seeps through, and [00:40:00] people are quite, good educated and and so on. in the evenings when we were having drinks and so on, you can have like really quite open conversations with the people from, uh, the Ministry of Sports and the guides and so on.

And it's quite open and, honest conversations. 

Kush: A lot of the image that you present, it's kind of magnificent about this, uh, old historic grand city full of, you know, these shiny new buildings and also relaxed the past and this lively friendly culture. But again, we are talking about North Korea here.

Yeah. 

What signs did you see you had about.

Where you were, that hinted, pointed, made it clear that this again was the most repressive government 

Johan Nylander: Yeah. 

Kush: In the world. 

Johan Nylander: Yeah, it's not difficult to see. I mean, you, you always have someone with you, [00:41:00] there's always someone with you. in, in the beginning you don't really think much about it, but after a few days it, it's, it gets quite frustrating if, say you visit a museum and you have to go to toilet and someone have to walk with you and wait outside and that's, it gets freaky after a while.

you cannot use, so hang on. They, they 

Kush: assigned somebody to each of the visitors, 

Johan Nylander: Uh, not, not each, but, uh, when, so you, you are in a group and, and one of the guys will go with you. always. and that's, it becomes freaky. Like, it becomes, uh, disturbing. also like people there, they have mobile phones, but there's no internet.

They have an internal intranet, right? So we, we can't access it. So, not, we cannot use our mobile phones, which was really nice. Like, uh, data free, time. But you cannot check any information. You cannot read in the news. I mean, again, for, for one week, that was quite, nice and calming.

But if you live in a society where you can't access international [00:42:00] news or check, say Wikipedia, or check facts or anything, you're reliant on what? the state control education system and state control, media, state control, everything tells you. And that natural limits knowledge, it limits intellectual debates.

so that, that is disturbing. and I mean, there's military everywhere, of course. when you're there, they, it is very friendly people, super friendly, like you eat well and you drink and so on, but it's kind of a bitter aftertaste all the time that we, you can't go out by yourself.

You can't do this, you can't do that, you can't do that. It's, you feel a bit like cattle. You feel a bit like, like a flock of sheeps being led here and there. and the propaganda is like nonstop, against America, against the imperialists, against the Japanese. and it's disturbing After while.

And I wouldn't say that [00:43:00] normal people like hate America or hate the Japanese, but it's, I mean, I can feel this when I'm in China also, like how the propaganda is like hammering down in, into the minds of people. And I mean, maybe we are propaganda in Sweden and United States and, and India also, but it's, uh, it is disturbing and then, okay, so North Korea, yeah, it's, it's maybe the most oppressive, least free country in the world, but it doesn't mean that it's most dangerous country in the world.

The other countries are like much more dangerous, where you have more violence and, and shooting and rival groups and gangs and, it's very safe. Maybe the most safe place on the planet. No. Are you saying it's safe 

Kush: from, from, safe for foreigners or is it really that safe for locals also?

Johan Nylander: They safe for everybody because you can't really do anything there. There are no thieves, there are no violence, there's no pickpockets, there's no, like, it's, it's super safe. But 

Kush: some of the, some of the things that we hear, you [00:44:00] know about, again, I don't know how apocryphal these are, but you hear about somebody who was caught watching a South Korean, uh, 

Johan Nylander: yeah.

Kush: Show. Yeah. And we'll send to the gulag. 

Johan Nylander: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So there's some things you can't do. That is, again, going back to the hardcore authoritarian rule, is as long as you follow the, the guidelines, everything is super safe, right? As long as you step out, you're done for right. So you, you stay within the borders almost like, like cattle.

Uh, you stay within the lines. Everything is super safe. You take one step out and you're done for 

Kush: right. You know, this brings up this interesting, point about. Contrast between how safe do you want a place to be versus because yes. You know, we complain about, the violence that we see around us in the US and Europe and Hong Kong and India, [00:45:00] but it's making me reflect also on this marvelous thing we have called freedom of information.

Yeah. Because this point, you know, I thought, yeah, I can't let it get lost on us that here you are, I am somebody from India who lives in the US who's back in India for a second here, recording this podcast with somebody who we connected via the internet, who's from one country now. Let me in another and talking about yet, I mean this is Yeah, I think those of us who have that freedom, I think we just take it so much for granted that we can just access. Yeah. And even if we can't get visas to go to some countries, because getting visas is not always easy. But I see this in India. I see people in India where I think data is the cheapest possibly in the world with access to information and with knowledge about [00:46:00] information about places that they will likely never travel to.

Yeah. So in some ways, this lack of freedom of information just seems the most,crucifying because, one wants to know what is happening. So Any signs or hints of how life might be outside this, you know, this glitzy capital of bong?

Johan Nylander: again, let me repeat what I said before. I don't wanna paint any an aroy pictures of this country. It's more,I, I often make it difficult for myself. I like to see things from more than one perspective. too many people, they they look at things from only one perspective, right?

they, they support or they're against. And I always try to complicate it and, uh, and see the good and the bad and the bad and the good, right? yeah, I mean, when you leave the capital, I've been up in Rason in the northern part of the country, and I've been traveling a bit on the countryside, and, and you [00:47:00] see that, like farming is, is very.

Like old tractors. There's a lot of manual work. Like a lot of people who, who work for the military. in North Korea, they actually work on farms or in, in construction. a lot of like manual labor. you don't see much richness when you leave the capital, uh, up in Rason with a, a free trade zone, bordering Russia and China.

You see how the Russians and Chinese are making a lot of investments into the ports, into the roads. people speak fluent Chinese up there, most people speak fluent Chinese up in, uh, in those parts of, uh, North Korea. This is, quite like about 10, 10 years ago I went there, but Chinese pickup trucks, uh, queuing every day to to cross the border into North Korea to to buy seafood and, and to buy things from the local factories and so on.

So there's a lot of cross border trade. Naturally breaking human sanctions, but, maybe they don't really care much about that. and yeah, I mean, I think what you read in the news about the oppression [00:48:00] in, in North Korea, a lot of this is true. Like a lot of it's, uh, exaggerated, because it is difficult to verify what's actually happening.

And we, we all love to use Kim Moon as almost like a James Bond bad guy, you know, because he, he fits the, the profile, right? He looks like a James Bond bad guy. and sometimes major reporting is tremendously exaggerated. that about food security and, and, uh, what else? but I mean, again, I think it's a fascinating place to go.

I think you can learn a lot about. the society there, you can learn a lot about yourself, the good things and the bad. that's why I find it important to, to go traveling to those kind of places and you learn so much about yourself and your own society. I mean, I was, I was speaking to, to one of the guys from the Ministry of Sports, and he spoke with, he asked about Hong Kong and how we live here.

And I said, we, the apartments are very small, it's very expensive. They're very small. and I [00:49:00] said, and, and, and, and you know, some people they, they can't even afford a home. They, they live on the streets. And he said, what do you mean? What do you mean they're homeless? And he never heard of the concept being homeless because everybody in North Korea, they, they get an apartment, right?

the government says you, you can live here. He never heard of the concept. Of not having a home. So he was, he was really shocked. Sorry, hang on. 

Kush: So even people in the countryside and recognizing that you didn't get a chance to go to all those places, but was that person saying that even people everywhere, the government guarantees them a home?

Johan Nylander: Yeah. 

Kush: Everybody get a home, okay. 

Johan Nylander: For free. Sure. Yeah. that's the ultimate socialist dream, right? it's like a also becomes something of a, like a Potemkin village, right? you get to sign the place to live, you get. you don't have much choice. You can apply for [00:50:00] a part of town.

if you do good a job, you can get a better part of town. There's some corruption, of course. a lot of corruption, of course. so I, it's just a different way of running the country and it's, it's, it's quite extreme.

Kush: Absolutely. it has obviously been, yeah. eye-opening in some ways, even to a veteran traveler and a journalist like you. And I'm, I'm curious, the day of the race itself, and there is this bonding that you felt when you were interacting with the locals, with the person who was taking you around, et cetera. And I'm curious, do you think that you were able to interact with the runners in a way that made maybe that connection even more special?



Johan Nylander: it was difficult to interact with the North Korean runners. first of all, most of them were elite runners or in, let say a sport athlete [00:51:00] school. so they, they were just super focusing on, on running. So the, the international group, the, the Chinese, the Korean, we were, you know, chatting, having good time and so on.

But the North Koreans, they were like, so focused. we tried to wave and tried to say something, but they, I dunno, maybe they were told not to interact with us, or they were just so focused on, on the race. So we, we didn't have much interaction with them. unfortunately. 



Kush: And what is the incentive that they have to invite you all to take part in this?

In this run? Is it some kind of a way to, I don't know, promote interaction or maybe actually to showcase this modernity that North Korea has to offer, which they think they can't display otherwise because their borders are closed? 



Johan Nylander: Well, it is a good question. I think it's not so important for North Korea to, to, to show how, how modern it is because I mean, they, they already know that the [00:52:00] western world hates North Korea, so they, they don't really care, right?

They, they, they don't really care. Maybe it's, it is more important for them to show to Russia and, and China, that we have good diplomatic relationships. that's probably much more important. And the marathon, it brings in, uh, money brings in revenue. and I think for, for the local athletes, it's a way to, you know, compete with international runners, right?

There were some, uh, like international elite runners from Africa. Uh, so it's like an opportunity to, to get the North Korean runners to compete with, uh, international runners. Not to put them in, like a real, real competition. and I mean, they've been. How many years? 20 years I think they had this marathon and you know, sometimes, sometimes the, was it 25 years?

Maybe. Sometimes the diplomatic relationships is, are better, sometimes they're worse. they, they co-hosted the Olympics with South Korea some years ago, you know, so, so [00:53:00] sometimes North Korea is a bit more open or the outside world is more open to them. then, then, then the marathon is, is a way to try to collaborate with the, uh, outside world.

But I don't think they need to, you know, try to impress the west. Uh, I really don't think they, they care much about that. But 

Kush: you have run in North Korea, but you've also run in a lot of other countries. So you know, when you strip away the language. Politics, the culture, what stays the same when people run.

Johan Nylander: Oh, we are all together, right? We all do this together. when you stand at the starting line, like for everybody who's done the marathon, like the most beautiful part of the marathon, it's not crossing the finishing line. It's crossing the starting line. Everybody stands there early in the morning, like everybody's just ready to go.

And there's music, people clapping hands and, and you're so like eager, just go, go, go, go, [00:54:00] go. Everybody stands together. It's this, uh, almost like a mass, uh, psychosis, right? And it's a beautiful feeling and that everybody shares. and I think the second thing everybody shares is, is when it starts to get hard.

When you pass 30 kilometer, 35 kilometer, when, when, when the pain starts to set in, when you start to doubt yourself, that also brings people together. And I'll never forget when I, I ran in, Mongolia in, uh, Ola bat. it was a very interesting race because half is in the city. The other half, half is outside of the city.

And in the city you have, , a lot of people like, a lot of like water fountain, water stations, people clapping hands, you know, kids running with you. You get all the encouragement and the motivation. Outside of, of the city, you are out at the, the step lands, like right out [00:55:00] Atu. The step lands begins and it's, it's beautiful.

It's absolutely beautiful, and you have wild horses. You have wild animals that's roaming free, and you run like just a few meters away from like a flock of horses that are, you know, munching grass or, you know, having a good time. The problem is there's no one there to support you. You are by yourself outta the countryside and mentally it is very different to run in the city when people are clapping hands or when you're all by yourself.

I was, I'm 35 kilometers in and I was really tired. Like I had so much pain in my legs, in my chest, in my mind, in my heart. I was Oh, like the two voices. You know, one going take it easy, and the other ones go like, come on. And it's really hard. it, the, I like that moment, you feel very much alive.

But it's very challenging. and what happened was that [00:56:00] this guy, this Mongolian guy, he came up next to me. He ran up next to me and he looked at me and I looked at him and he didn't say anything. He just nodded, like I nodded back at him. And then we ran together for like five kilometers. Yeah. So that was connection. Wow. Connection over culture, and language barriers. And, and he was in pain and, you know, doubting if he could make it, and I was in pain doubting myself. Then he just came up to me just right. And we just ran together just, and it was like, yeah, I'm almost getting goosebumps now when, when I talk about it.

Kush: Wow. 

Johan Nylander: so that is no matter where you run, I think that's a thing that, like connects people. So that, that, that was a strong, strong experience for me. Yeah. I'll never forget that, that guy. 

Kush: Yeah. And I'm getting goosebumps as you're describing it, [00:57:00] connected not by language or culture, but connected by pain.

Mm-hmm. 

By suffering. Yeah. By the finish line up ahead. And, and also connected by joy. This joy that you guys feel. 

Johan Nylander: It's something strange, something strange that happens when you are, when it starts to get really, really difficult. You have like more pain than you ever had in your mind, but you've put it on yourself.

you have the power to stop it. You can just stop it if you want. But that voice goes like, come on, you can do this. And like, almost like the more, the more painful it gets, the more determined you get. And like the pain becomes almost like pure, the pain becomes your best friend.

it's very strange thing. It's very difficult to explain, but when I'm thinking of the marathon, I have now in two, in two weeks, I'm looking forward to standing at the starting line. And I'm looking [00:58:00] forward to being in that pain cave when I know I have no one, no one can help me. No one can help me.

I, I'm here by myself. Maybe the Olian guy will come and help me. But that mindset is very, very powerful. It's very, very strong to find yourself there. it's, it, it's a strange kind of beauty, 

Kush: that is, uh, so deep. And zooming out a little bit, Johan,

do you think you have surprised even yourself where running has taken you 

Johan Nylander: since you 

Kush: started? 

Johan Nylander: Yeah. I can do so much more than I thought I could. Absolutely. Uh, I'm so much stronger physically and mentally than I could ever imagine. Like again, when I, when I did the military, you had to push much, much harder than you thought you could.

And complaining takes you nowhere. it doesn't help you keep on pushing, keep on going forward, look after the people around you. But that's when I was 19, right? [00:59:00] and now this, running the long distance running, I really taught me that, how my capacities are so much greater than I ever thought. I can become stronger mental and physically.

And when you think things are really, really hard, you only, you haven't even came 50%, right? You can keep on going so much, so much longer, It helps me running, it helps me when I'm up in the mountains when I'm climbing in. Um, I don't do rock climbing like you, but I like to spend a few days just me in a tent, go up in the mountains.

In, in, in Japan. I don't mind if it's hot anymore. Like I, I don't mind if it's raining, if it's pouring the army. If I'm tired, I don't mind just keep on going. I'm, so there's nothing can stop me anymore. few things can stop me anymore. and that, that is new to me. Yeah. Maybe it's was there before, but now it's became quite clear so that, that is, it's a bit difficult to explain to friends, like over coffee [01:00:00] or, or when you have, have a drink.

and I think a lot of my friends, they don't understand me anymore. they don't get it. Exactly these things that we talk about today. maybe you, Kush is actually the first person I, I have this kind of conversation with it, it's actually a bit emotional for me to talk about these things, yeah, to be able to, I mean, I can stand up now and run 50 kilometer,it's not bad.

maybe I could do 100 like my, a year from now. I would, I would, I would try to do a 100 al ultra run. Like maybe I failed, but I can cross the starting line at least. But it, it changed my mindset a lot. 

Kush: Yeah. 

Incredible. No, your hand for sure. And you know, the narrative is yes, you do these things in your teens, like you said, you were 19 in the military and now you are at a different age and a different stage of your life, and.

Many people believe that [01:01:00] or are convinced that once you kinda cross this imaginary sign age, whatnot, they cannot start do things. The kind that seems particularly daunting as going out and running big races. So what would you say to someone listening, someone who's thinking about aging capability or staying curious, what do you want them to take away from your experience?

Johan Nylander: Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's not very important to do exercise when you're in your twenties because you are strong and you're getting stronger and, and, but it's really, really important to do exercise when you get, when you get a bit older. Because your body gets weaker like every day. My body gets a bit weaker and you need to push back against that.

I heard someone saying that you don't stop walking because you got old, [01:02:00] like you got old because you stopped walking. And I think it's, it's that simple. and also we, we always heard, right, this thing like, no gain with, no pain, no gain, right? They're saying like, I, I always learned when I was growing up, and if you do exercise, you have to go really hard.

You go to the gym and you push it until you vomit or you run till you bleed. What? No, I take it easy. Like people who are new to exercise, like new to running, I tell them, just put your shoes on and go for a 500 meter run or, or walk. but try to do it every day. Or, five days a week. Don't put much pressure on you.

Like you don't need to lift heavy weight to go for, 10 k runs. Go take 500 meters, but do it five days a week. create a habit, create a good habit. Then it, it becomes part of your daily routines and your body starts to, uh, adjust to it and acclimatize to it. And then the body starts to [01:03:00] enjoy it.

And then after some time, the, the body starts craving it. I wanna go. I, I wanna go out. I need to go out to get my little run. And maybe the first week you do five hundreds. The next week you do one kilometer. And then if you can do one kilometer five days a week, you, it's really good, right?

You, you feel, feel stronger. You feel, feel more happy. Like, we don't need to put too much pressure on ourselves, but you need to create this, uh, this new habits. I think that is the key to everything. Um, 

Kush: your hand. In some ways, your journey seems almost like this, you know, hero journey. You know, you were going through some, I, I'll not, I'll not call it hero journey.

Please. C take that back. Yeah. It's a, it's the antihero journey, so lemme complete. So, exactly. So, you know, you were going through a health crisis. You had crossed the age of 50 and I'm sure there were a lot of things going on mentally, [01:04:00] physically, and then you started running and it's been transformative.

What was the hardest thing that you had to personally overcome in order to make this your habit, your love, your discipline? 

Johan Nylander: My love and my discipline. I had no choice. Like, it is almost like the choices were made for me, I think. I was in a physically, like, such a low place. Like I, I could hardly walk. Uh, I was mentally feeling absolutely terrible.

I tried to speak with people about it. I tried to talk to my friends about it, but, no one really wanna listen. And maybe I didn't wanna talk about it. I didn't feel, comfortable talking about it, but I knew I was, I was sliding, I was going into dark places. I didn't have a choice, right.

I asked her to start, right. I remember going to the gym. I had no weights. I went on the machines like with no weights. Uh, I was, doing this exercise with no weights. But I still knew that I [01:05:00] was working harder than anyone at the gym. I started, I couldn't even run. I, I started taking walks. The most difficult to overcome. It's, um,

I'm always struggling with bad lifestyle choices. I, I can go deep into running deep into climbing mountains. I can also go deep into doubting myself. I can go deep into, taking the easy way out, right? Sit in the bar, stay, go to the bar instead of the gym, right? 'cause life is hard.

Life can be stressful, right? So, 'just try to make the decision to, I mean, we all try to feel better, right? And you can, feel better without any effort. sugar scrolling, drinking. but you can feel better with effort running, go to gym and so on. and the thing that you, you notice when you, when you start to make good lifestyle choices, when you start to be a bit stronger for yourself, that you, you also can be stronger for the people around you.

[01:06:00] And maybe I don't care much about myself anymore, but I really care about the people around me. So when you get stronger here, when you find your own peace, when you find your happiness, when you find strength, when you start to take responsibility of yourself, then you can start to be responsible for people around you.

And then when people start to come to you, ask for help, ask for advice. maybe, that's the greatest gift you can get, when people see you as, shit, something happened. I, I need to reach out to someone. If, if they come to you. Maybe that's the greatest gift you can get. so, so, yeah. So this is a journey, right?

And, and it's easy to sit and say, yeah, just buy a pair of, run shoes and, and, you know, go out running or, don't go to the pub, go to the, it's so easy to, I think there's so many influences out there, just don't understand how, how difficult it is to, to make that change, especially later in life.

Because, I mean, you, [01:07:00] you spend your whole career or whole life working hard, going to the pub, going to the sofa, having crisps, and, and, and your body's used to it. Your mind is used to it. Your friends are used to it. All your friends do the same and try to break out of those habits and, and, and create some new habits.

It's bloody hard. It's not easy. But when you take these small steps, right, you know, it doesn't have to be big steps. like small steps in, in the right, right decision, right direction. 

Kush: the first step is the hardest, but then can also be the easiest if you really break things down. Did you find that you had to also change the environment around you? starting with maybe the foods in your house, starting with.

Where you kept your running shoes versus maybe that bottle of alcohol or something else. Uh, starting with, you know, maybe you moved residences to be closer. Like, [01:08:00] can you talk about how maybe even reorienting your environment can be so effective? 

Johan Nylander: there are a lot of things you can do to move to about yourself.

People say you need discipline. and it's hard to dis be so, I mean, I, you can, the night before you say, tomorrow I'm gonna go running. So even the night before you tell yourself that tomorrow I'm gonna go running. You put your shoes out, you put your running gear out. When you wake the next day, decision's already made that simplifies a lot.

Right? I think that is, that is one of the classics for people who are new to running, just, just. Place your shoes. And when you wake up, the shoes are looking at you. The shoes tells you like, come on bro, you told me we were gonna go running today. I heard, I saw an interview with, uh, David Goggins. You maybe know him this like super influencers.

He, he said sometimes when he is tired, you know, he's like, he, he, he sits there like her having like a stare down with the [01:09:00] running shoes for 30 minutes. Just sits there like stares at the running shoes for 30 minutes, who's gonna win? And said the running shoes always wins and then they go running. But I like that one.

I, I also try not to have, not to eat too much before I go to bed. so, so, so the body doesn't have to process too much food during sleep. you know, if, if you have been eating too much in the evening, uh, maybe too much meat or, or, or sweet, you wake up the next day and you feel really heavy, you feel like super heavy in the body.

So try not to have too much snacks in the evening. Have your last meal around six or seven and a few hours before sleeping, just no eating that, that helps a lot. Or if you desperately need some snacks in the evening, just to have some vegetables, like some,yeah, some, some something. Not, not heavy, but, so those things really help, uh, surround yourself with people who are, who motivate you. Right there. There's so many people who can [01:10:00] say like, oh, be careful. Don't do it. Don't overdo it. Right? do who to that, that hold you down? but try to find people who, who can motivate you to help to motivate you.

And also sometimes you, you don't need to actively go looking for them, that just by going running, they will come to you. They will see you. It's like, yeah. Well done. Come on. you've probably heard this thing, like, it is important to surround yourself with people who can help you.

If you have four people around you who go running in the morning, you might be the fifth, right? You have four people who do, run their own companies. Like you might be the fifth, right? Or you have four people around you who, sit and complain about how difficult and unfair everything is.

Like yeah. You will be the fifth who sit and, complain about everything. I made a lot of new friends and, and, uh, like I would, who we would talk about this thing and it, we inspire each other and, uh, I'm very happy for that. Like, some [01:11:00] people, when I was new to running, I was, coming up to my first marathon and, and these people just take me running on this like crazy long runs and, just pull me out of my comfort zone, take me on runs, like longer than I've ever done before.

for those people. Like very, very grateful, you know, really push me to do things that wasn't even, I didn't even know I could, I could do myself. They thought I could do it. I thought I couldn't do it, so they took me doing it. It was very difficult and a lot of pain the next day.

But no, it's, yeah, it should be bloody grateful if you have people like that around you. 

Kush: Community is so powerful and just taking that first step and finding those kind of people. And I find that people personally are so supportive because most people have experienced some of that journey themselves.

And if they see that you are making that difficult step to enter a new world, a new activity, a [01:12:00] new life, people are usually willing to lend a hand and make your efforts count. You had, now you are in your early fifties,

what are you doing today that you think you will be able to leverage? To help you age with grace, with power to really make your next couple of decades count? 

Johan Nylander: Yeah. This is such an important question. I've been thinking a lot about this. I've been, I've been writing about it, I've been interviewing people about it, that there's all almost an obsession of like living many years, like longevity, right?

but, but few people talk about living healthy years, right? Because if we get, if we all [01:13:00] get older, but you last 10 years are miserable, like, what's the point? So it's really, we live longer, like we live longer and our pension system doesn't really, Like, live up to that anymore. So we need to think of our finances when we are older.

We need to think of our health, our mental health and physical health. And, and this, it's really important to plan, uh, your older years. so maybe I need to put more emphasis on my finances, but when it comes to health,I'm real on a good journey. Like I'm very, very much on a good journey, mental stability. I'm, I'm on a good journey. I think this is super important. Like everybody needs to talk about it when you get older and you can't open yards anymore because you're getting so weak and you have so much pain that, that is terrible.

And you, you're so old that you, you can't go for walks anymore. Uh, it's terrible. I mean, what's the point? To grow, to grow old. But, [01:14:00] but you can't enjoy life, right? I think I try to speak with my friends about this and, and some of them just won't even listen. I think it is really important to talk about these things.

and it's a new thing. Like we never be been this old, humanity, right? So this is new, it's unchartered territory for, for our race. So it's, it's super important that everybody I know that World Economic Forum, uh, have a special branch only talking about longevity and, and health in, in, uh, uh, latest stages in life.

and we need to look after our own health like that. The society can do a lot for you, but when it comes to health, you're the only one who can, who can do it. When it comes to exercise, when it comes to what you eat, like you're the, you can, you can blame nothing around you. You, you are the only one who are, who is responsible.

and this is super important. that's also why I enjoy your podcast so [01:15:00] much, right? I, I, I've been listening to a lot of episodes in your podcast, and it's among the most important podcasts I've came across. I mean, I'm not joking. it's among the most important podcast I've seen in, in, in a long time.

And, one thing, one thing I really enjoyed with your podcast is it was one episode when, when you were interviewed, you were interviewed and, and, and the guy asked you, like, why did you start the podcast? And you said, I, I didn't start it because I have all the answers. I started because I don't have all the answers.

I think it's, it's a very good approach. It's a clever approach. It's a humble approach, and I think we all need to have that approach to health when you get a bit older. so yeah, I'm, I mean now I'm the one saying thank you to you for, to, for having this podcast, and I really recommend it to people.

Like I really mean it. 

Kush: Very kind, very kind. Your hand. Final question. When you hear the phrase ageless, [01:16:00] what does that mean to you personally? 



Johan Nylander: death always walks next to us. It'll come a day when the trees will drop from the, the leaves will drop from the trees, the tree inevitably, nothing wrong with that.

Up to that day, you know, we do our best to, uh, to have a healthy life, a healthy relationship with our friends and our family. if you don't look after yourself, it's very difficult to look after the people around you. that's what I feel when I hear that word, uh, in this context. 

Kush: I love it. You know, I was just talking to my mom the other day.

My mom is, uh, 73 now, and she knock on wood, a lot of energy, lot of love to give, to share, to do things for other people. so she is so selfless. The only way I can get through to her when I ask her to start an exercise and a strength training habit is that you, mom will [01:17:00] not be able to use your faculties in the same way.

To help others, your kids. Mm-hmm. Your grandkids, your friends, unless you are also still physically capable. So, if not for your sake 

mm-hmm. 

For the sake of everybody else, you need to look after, after yourself. 

Johan Nylander: Yeah. it's a very good approach. it's very clever. 'cause I think when you get older, maybe you get less selfish.

You don't care so much about yourself anymore. But when someone tells you, like, if you don't look, if you don't look after yourself, you cannot look after me or your grandchildren. that is quite powerful. That's, 

Kush: yeah. I mean, no, it's basically what you're saying and what I'm learning from all of you. You had any final words before we end?

Johan Nylander: no. I just wanna say again, thank you a few for having this, this podcast again, it's, it's, uh, for me it's, it's a gold mine. I really recommend other people to. To listen to it. And, uh, yeah. I'm also telling [01:18:00] my friends to listen to your podcast, so that that's it. And, uh, yeah, I mean, we, we inspire each other,to become better, to, to become stronger.

But at the end of the day, you are the one who has to tie your running shoes and take, take the first step.