Seven Years in a Subaru — From the Deep South to Himalayan Summits: Discipline, Focus, and Not Done Yet at 65

Ageless Athlete - Kitty Calhoun
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Kush: [00:00:00] Katie, I always start off with this question, which is, where are you right now and what did you have for breakfast today? 

Kitty: Well, I'm in Castle Valley, which is 17 miles outside of, Moab. And this morning I got up early to go get an, mini traction session. so I ate a builder's bar in the car on the drive up to the common area.

Kush: Sounds, yeah. Sounds efficient. yes. All these years later, you, you haven't forgotten your minimalist roots. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, yeah, like sometimes, you know, one has to prioritize the right things, especially when you have to get that, uh. climbing session in before we go work, do this podcast recording.

Right. [00:01:00] And Moab is indeed a, a special part of the country. I was not as familiar with Castle Valley in particular. So, so what makes this place special? Kiri, and I know that is, this is far from where you grew up, so why do you choose to spend time there? 

Kitty: Hmm. Well, yeah, castle Valley is, is special because we're surrounded by towers on one side, castle and tower, the rectory.

on the other side there's the rim, porcupine rim. And then at the head of the, the head of the valley, there's, uh, round Mountain it just. The, the desert landscape has grown only like I never appreciated the desert before, having grown up and spent all my time in the mountains. And in fact, I remember, conversations about, well, you know, why don't we [00:02:00] put just, we could just put very nuclear waste in the desert. You know, nothing grows there. And then I, I realized how wrong that is. when, one time when I was invited on, um, the kayaking trip down the Grand Canyon, and I was a big kayaker at the time, never been down the grand and, and we, it was in the spring before the peak season, so we got to spend 21 days.

On the river. We had some rest days where we could just spend the whole day hiking. And one day we went, went up, hiked up towards the rim, and overnight wild flowers had just started blooming and the whole desert was just covered with wild flowers. And, and I realized that this is really a living environment.

it's not a wasteland.

And, um, so yeah, just the, uh, [00:03:00] different ecosystem and, and, and, um, the indigenous culture and the, and the, and the wildlife. It's all, it's all fascinating to me now. 

Kush: indeed. The, the desert is, is complex. You know, it's got so many layers and. Different environments and, and different seasons. And I think, I think it's one of those things that one needs to find out after spending some time there.

Because yes, first impressions, you know, you see there's like two dimensional view, right? And then you, you spend time there. And I feel like, you know, the people who propose those kinds of, let's say desecrations, uh, mining and, uh, storing hazardous, I mean, they need to come and spend a day with you. 

Kitty: Yeah. 

Kush: A day with you a couple of days, and, uh, you know, have you, uh, yeah.

Just have you, You know, bedazzle them, [00:04:00] because I can see you lighting up when you talk about Right at all of your 

Kitty: magazine. Yeah. Of, of, um, one time a guy was writing an article for Cowboys and Indians magazine and, and he wanted to write a story about me as a woman, ice climber. Kind of rare, or it used to be rare.

and I thought, well, you know, I don't want a story written about me. I wanna, a story about something I care about or I don't know. And so I thought, and it was spring Ice was gone, so I thought, I said, let's go to Bears Ears and never actually been to Bear's Ears before. And, you know, Indian Creek is part of Bear's Ears.

So took him climbing at Indian Creek on the way down to Bear's Ears. And then we, and then we, uh, we got there and had, there were a couple. Hikes that, that friends had recommended. And we're out on this first hike and remember just hiking up. And then at the very near the very end, you end up on this slick rock.

[00:05:00] And then you have to do this down climbing. And then, and then all of a sudden there's just this like, big dome. You have to go down and then back up. And then there's, and, and there's, um, uh, dwellings. There's a dwelling on top of the dome. And it's, it's, it was just like, and to get there, you have to do exposed traversing.

And it was just, uh, I remember, but there was breathtaking really. I mean, I sort of gasped for breath when I saw it for the first time. It was totally an unexpected. And, and he wrote about that. Like, this woman who's climbed, who's climbed in the Himalayas, her breath was taken away in embarrassed you. Mm.

You know. Right here in our own backyard. And so yeah, there's, there's a lot of magic here in our own backyards is what I'm finding. 

Kush: That's right. He likely came [00:06:00] prepared and somewhat aw by your climbing accomplishments and some of the world's most far away and exotic and, and intimidating places. And he didn't, he, he likely expected you to be somewhat blase about, uh, you know, just our little, uh, humble deserts of the, uh, Southwest.

But they are not so humble. They are No, absolutely gorgeous. And yeah, that's a great little story and maybe illustrates, let's say in a way you are, uh, hard on position as an advocate, not just for I was sport, but. For our public lands. 

Kitty: Mm-hmm. 

Kush: Kiri, I'm so glad to have you here. And a lot of listeners may not know the full arc of your story.

So before we get into specifics, how do you describe yourself [00:07:00] these days? 

Kitty: Mm,

well, I'm a complicated lady.

Hard to put in a box. I'm trying to stay that way too. Um, uh, yeah, boy. Um,

I'm a, I'm a, a mom, a wife, athlete. I'm a Christian, I'm an advocate for just transition to clean energy in conservation of public lands,

Kush: that is certainly a little less there. Yeah. And at different times of the day or season, maybe, maybe one hat is, uh, bigger than the other, but you know, you made [00:08:00] your name or you came up the ranks through

climbing and through some of the things that you were able to complete in the mountains. So your career started many decades ago as a climber, right. And you have stood on some of the, uh, you know, the tallest mountains of the world like we were just talking about. But decades later, you're still climbing.

Like just this morning you went on the strike mission to, uh, do some climbing. So what does climbing mean to you today, Kiri, compared to what it meant to you a few decades ago? 

Kitty: Well, when I first got into Alpinism, that, that was all I did every day in the winter, uh, you know, I just wanted to climb in the [00:09:00] Rocky Mountains in the winter because summer was too easy.

I learned, I learned more in the winter. it was more challenging and prepared me better for big mountains. And all I did every day was climb. And, and then I worked in the off season, which was not winter. And then I started going on a ex, an expedition in spring or fall, I had a, a, a bucket list sort of.

they were all big adventures.

And that's sort of, that's changed for me now because I'm in a place where, a lot of things have happened, uh, including climate change. So that's affected, some roots that I was once interested in. And then politics. Some areas aren't as safe as I feel comfortable going into. [00:10:00] And then there's, uh, my partners, my husband's, um, not as interested right now in going into big mountains in the, like, cold, snowy, icy, is what I mean by big, big mountains.

And

I have a, I have a lot of, a lot of interest that I'm trying to balance. So, so I scaled it back and then an, so an adventure became for me, a big wall own el cap every, every spring. And I did that for a number of years. You know, you can get in a big adventure in two weeks or less in El cap. Own El cap, right?

So more recently I've just been focusing on, just on movement and, and actually I'm grateful that I'm still in really good health [00:11:00] and my fitness level's really high. So I'm trying to just, um, take advantage of that, maintain that, and continue to push my levels technically as hard as I can climbing, and then I'm supplementing that with running and weightlifting and a little stretching or yoga.

Yeah, 

Kush: yoga. Well, for, for sure, uh, kitty and your energy and your zest for, uh, going out there and doing stuff like it comes across loudly and clearly. And it's funny how you mentioned that you know your partner. Is less inclined to go out to the big mountains. So maybe, maybe if you did not have a quote unquote that, uh, that that bit of an obstacle, you probably would still be out there.

Kitty: It's possible, but there's also sometimes I think that you only have nine lives or whatever. I don't know what it is, but you know, true. I think [00:12:00] that there's only so, so much in you. You can, you can only

mentally and physically endure so many, epics. Or if they're not epics, experiences where you're given a a hundred percent physically, um, mentally, emotionally, each, each, it takes a toll. You know? I mean, physiologically, I think it takes a toll on your adrenal glands perhaps. Stress? Um, 

Kush: yes. Yes.

Okay. 

Kitty: And then,

and, and being in those situations. So I, I think that I feel like each time I went out, say, on a big expedition or a big climb, then I gave it, I was, uh, I gave it a hundred percent because I spread 'em out. I, I didn't go back to back to back. So I was fully, prepared physically. I wasn't worn, still worn down from the last trip.

I [00:13:00] was really amped. I was ready to go and I, and I prepared. Done all the research, prepared all my gear, had exactly what I needed, figure it out as well as I could, strategy and, and so each, I made each trip count. Like I said, I gave, gave each trip a hundred percent. And I, I think that that's, that helped me keep my career going, without getting burned out prematurely.

And also just the ability to make good decisions. I felt like I was physically and, and mentally in the head space to make good decisions, even when they were sort of, even when they were life, life and death decisions where, where I was putting everything on the line. I think you've only got so many of those experiences in your body.

Kush: Yeah, no, that's, that's well put. And. It's an interesting aspect of, uh, mountaineering, alpine climbing and being in those fearsome [00:14:00] environments that I think doesn't come across as, vividly as obviously the, the, the, the sport does and the expanses. I mean, I was just talking to somebody recently who had not climbed, but they had seen people climbing and they were talking about like, how it seems to them, it seemed like such a, like a laid back sort of sport.

And, I feel like I don't go very far when I try to explain climbing to non climbers. 

Kitty: Mm-hmm. But 

Kush: the point that you made is, um. Is, is not just the, the, the, the physical hazards and the physical, let's say the uh, uh, the suffering, but it's also the constant mental stress of making the right decisions in order to survive and complete the expedition and come back.

And I can imagine that over a lifetime it adds up like that. Yeah. It's not just your joints that have suffered, it's also your, your, uh, brain. [00:15:00] Yeah. Your brain, brain flirt with you that Yeah. Even for somebody like you, you know, and it's, it's, it's funny that how you talk about that you were planned and calculated, because to the outside it would seem that, you know, you.

Just did not stop. Like you just went and did one thing after the other. But yes, obviously there was a method to the madness and, and that's maybe one reason for your longevity in the sport because you were able to manage Yeah. And plan both the physical and the mental toll

kitty, you've had so many incredible sense. Right. And yeah, I mean, close by to home up north in Alaska. And then things that you were able to complete out [00:16:00] in the, in the Himalaya, and obviously yeah. Don't have time to talk about, you know, most of them. But if you had to choose one story that. That captures.

Kitty: Mm-hmm. 

Kush: What's your climbing career? I mean, I know it's hard, but, but what might that story be? 

Kitty: Yeah. Well, I'll tell you, and then going back though, because I wanted to, to finish up on what you were talking about in terms of how alpine climate might seem simple to somebody who doesn't understand, like just putting one foot in front of the other.

But the more technical the objective is, the more complicated it becomes as well, because. And so I look at it like, a chess game because you have to take all the factors into consideration when you're figuring out your strategy. So I mean, to start with, you have to [00:17:00] find the right partner. So the right partner not only has to have the same interest in the same route, on the same, same peak, but also has to have the time and the money, but also has to have, a, a similar range of risk tolerance and then also has to be a team player.

And, you know, clearly has to be fit. People might think of that right off, but that's, that's a given, right? And so, and then has to have the technical skills. So, uh, but there's the, those other factors that people may not have thought about. And because success comes down to more than just, did you get the right weather?

how did you play with the cards that you were dealt? so there's, there's that, there's the partner partners, but then there's, um, weighing the weather, weighing in avalanche conditions, root finding, uh, altitude effects of [00:18:00] altitude. and then, and then your partners and your strengths and weaknesses and how they compliment each other and, how, how much gear, what, what kind of gear, how much food, um, the whole, 

Kush: how, I mean, the calculations are like Yeah, like infinite, you know, to, to find that kind of climbing partner who would make a worthy companion, right.

To be able to accomplish big things. 

Kitty: Yeah. Yeah. And, and then, and, uh, and the partner is just the most important part of it. But then you, again, like you said, all these other factors weigh, weigh in as well, and they're, they're always changing, you know, it could be the health, health of your partner, or, or it could be, uh, that's another factor that I forgot to mention.

But these, these things are always changing. And so you're always thinking like, what if, you know, what if this happens, then what? So that you can anticipate, so that you can move, because you usually don't have big weather windows. And so it's, [00:19:00] it's all, uh, a lot of strategy that goes into it.

Kush: A hundred percent. Uh, for sure. Uh. Going back to Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for, uh, thanks for helping us understand, uh, some of that, uh, dynamic. Right. Yeah. And just going back to that, uh, thing, I was trying, trying to, uh, I wanted to ask you, which is, uh, yes, I'm sure all of your story have had epic partnerships, but, uh, yeah.

Is there maybe one, one epic, one ascent that you could take us into? Yeah, yeah. Which may capture some of those things. 

Kitty: Right. I mean, out of all of 'em, 'cause I have a lot of stories to tell, but the one that I keep going back to is Makalu, which was my biggest achievement, was the, the West Pillar on Makalu.

And it was only the second or third ascent. And, so. The [00:20:00] West Pillar had been climbed. Yeah, it had been climbed by some French back in 1970 something. There, there was a team of, men supported by Sherpa's and Oxygen, but it was pretty major, uh, achievement at the time because it's like 10,000 feet of technical climbing. then John Skel, who was the best or well-known, um, alpinist in the United States at the time, summited

his was the second ascent. He was, uh, there were four of 'em, and in the end, um, he ended up summiting a loan and then. He barely made it back down. He was tired and sat down to take, take a nap. But you know what happens? You know, sometimes you don't wake up. He knew that too, but he was just so exhausted. And then [00:21:00] he saw lights, uh, his partners tense just below.

And, and then that, that inspired him to motivated him to not take that nap, which could have been the end, and to make it down. And, and, um, I, I called him and said, um, what do we need? What do, how do we do this? And I, you know, I wanted to go Alpine style, fully alpine style, but he said, well, we brought 10,000 feet of fixed line and we used it all.

I'm like, well, okay. because the problem is, is that there's too much, um, distance between good camp and place, you know, place where you could set up a tent So you can't acclimatize. It's just really tricky strategically to be able to pull this off fully alpine style. So I thought, well, okay. I, I mean, if, if the best climber in the world brought 10,000 feet of rope, that's what we're gonna do too.

So we, we did, we brought 10,000 feet of rope. There's like a thousand feet in each potato [00:22:00] sack, and none of us had ever stood out. Hang on, you, 

Kush: you brought 10,000 feet of rope. 

Kitty: Yeah. Th And this expedition cost us 5,000 a piece, including airfare. This was in 1990, so I was still going pretty fast in light, like my first expedition, it cost like 3000 a piece, including airfare.

But anyway, so, yeah, just to get into base camp, you have to, you have to, it's a hundred miles just to get into base camp. You cross over three 14,000 foot passes, like the porters are carrying these loads through snow. We're, we're, we're breaking trail. And they're following us through snow in like their flip flops.

'cause they sold all their shoes we gave them carrying the loads and we get to base camp. And, uh, so we, um, then we had these ropes in, in, in potato sacks and we, uh, [00:23:00] we didn't know what to do 'cause none of us had ever strung out a thousand feet of rope. But we figured it out and we figured that we were, would work in teams of, well, teams of two.

But I think you'd get to, Lead for two days and then you'd have to, um, support, you know, carry loads for two, for four days and so that nobody would get burned out just being carrying loads. You know, like there's no fun in glory in that. And so, so we, we, we did that and, I think that was a big part of keeping the motivation going because well, for one thing to start with, it's pretty overwhelming just standing in base camp at 17,000 feet and looking up at the summit, which is 28,000 something. yeah, it's big. And so you just sort of have to break it down, take it step by [00:24:00] step and, uh.

Keep going and stay motivated and stay healthy and stay fit. And for example, we camp, camp two was, you had a, you had a, you went up this, this tallus field at camp one, like 19,000 something. And then, and then you had this mile long knife edge ridge and it wasn't that technical, but it was a knife edge ridge.

And if you got blown over in the how and winds, like you're done, it's super exposed. So, so that's why you fix that part to, to camp two, which was, there was a big, casse, you could go inside the crevasse and there was like a room that was like, okay, cool, this is like the bedroom. Here's the bathroom, here's our front porch.

And so it was pretty nice. So we, you know, over time I, we ended up spending weeks at. Just camped at 21,000 feet. That was sort of our advanced base camp. and [00:25:00] then camp three was at 23,000 feet, you have to go across traverse, across a terrible traverse because the, the ridge becomes like steep rock that you can't, it is not really good climbing there.

So you sort of tr do this traverse and then you go up and then it's mixed climbing up to camp three, which was like another crevasse. But it, it was cold and, and people didn't really recover sleep very well. At, at camp three at 23,000 feet, were 

Kush: you guys doing it with oxygen or No, no, 

Kitty: no, no, no, no, 

Kush: no. Like we 

Kitty: weren't using oxygen or Sherpas and stuff.

'cause I mean, even though we were fixing 10,000 feet, we were still trying to go as fast and light as we could, but it wasn't very light. So anyway, people started like, one partner ended up, he was coughing so hard, he broke his rib, uh, broke a rib we think, and another one [00:26:00] was couldn't keep food down because you c and, and ended up, well you don't metabolize food efficiently above 14,000 feet.

So you're trying to eat to, um, keep the calories in, but you're not metabolizing. And so it's almost like a, two steps forward, one step back kind of thing. I attribute my success at Altitude is be, uh, my ability solely to my ability to be able to eat. I'm, I'm a good eater. Ah, 

Kush: yeah. Actually curious, this fun question secret 

Kitty: I should have charged.

Yeah. Fun question. 

Kush: Fun question. So this is, so when was this again? Katie? 19 nine. Do mind us please. 

Kitty: 19 nine. Nine. Nine. Okay. 

Kush: So was this, uh, before, before the era of, let's say, um, Alpine style, like, you know, freeze dried foods, were you eating back then? No, no. 

Kitty: It was, we had free, we had freeze dried food. Yeah.

Kush: Okay, okay. Yeah, 

Kitty: yeah, 

Kush: sure. But even then, that's hard to eat at that [00:27:00] type of altitude. Your body 

Kitty: just doesn't perform at altitude the way it does at low altitude. So, 

Kush: yes, 

Kitty: physiologically, and because they had, they, some doctors did a study, um, because there were some minors in Peru that were having trouble, living at this camp where work camp, they were all losing weight and they couldn't, they just didn't have the energy.

And, and so some, this is actually a medically proven fact that you don't, that your body doesn't metabolize food efficiently above 14. So you can imagine spending weeks above 14, I mean, you know, above 21 at a time, and then you go up to 23. And so the, so another couple partners, ended up having to, uh, bail there.

And then before we got to 25,000 feet, which was a crux, uh, another partner, couldn't go any further. Had run out energy. So the, [00:28:00] this, like, we're over a month in right? into this expedition, the whole expedition took us 60 days. So we're, trying to maintain strength and we got to the crux at 25,000 feet, which was an overhanging off with Oh wow.

And, uh, yeah. And, uh, partner Colin Grissom, um, volunteered to lead it and got up at, we got to our camp, the camp at 25 5. This, the last camp. And then we, spent the night and then we had a, we were gonna, uh, take an an acclimatization day and then spend another night, second night at 25 5. And then the next day we set out for the summit.

But the winds were so strong. We couldn't make it, so we had to turn back around. So that's the third night at 25 5. And Colin said his bronchitis had gotten so bad, he [00:29:00] couldn't really, uh, he couldn't try again. And he, and so the next day he went down alone and made it all the way down. and, and John and I spent scut and I spent another night.

I think we spent another night and then, or maybe it was the ne that next day we went for the summit. We went for the summit, we made the summit, came down, spent the night, and then the next day went down. So it was like four or five nights at 25, 5 without oxygen. 

Kush: That's ridiculous. 

Kitty: Yeah. And so we made it down.

But you know, the thing that I realized and then, and then our teammates spent the whole. Whole rest of the time getting all of our fixed lines off the mountain. the thing is, is that, you know, when I think about this expedition, I, I think that

there's no way that John and I could have summited without the combined effort of each [00:30:00] of those team members. What each person contributed individually was irreplaceable. Irreplaceable. And so it was a perfect, it's the ideal scenario of, of, uh, example of what can be accomplished through the synergy of perfect teamwork.

And so, in all of my everyday life now, that's what I hold. My, that's what I hold is my standard in turn or ideal. What I'd like to reach again through all of my, um, my projects. 

Kush: Well, kit, that sounds like a lot of pressure for, uh, people who interact with you on a day-to-day basis. I always feel sorry for like, uh, you know, people, your, your, your, your, your delivery person, you know, maybe somebody who, who helps with your garden.

I'm just kidding. 

Kitty: Are you? 

Kush: so [00:31:00] ki did you expect this group effort to, to come together so beautifully in harmony? Was this planned and expected or were you also surprised at how well all the different parts, the different humans executed to help you guys get to the top? 

Kitty: yeah, I would have to say I didn't really plan it out and I didn't really know how I was gonna deal with it because I was in a awkward position a little bit because I was the leader of the expedition, but all of my partners were eagerly or more, qualified as a climber and as a leader than I was.

So I was in awe of every single one of my teammates. [00:32:00] but I, I really don't don't like being a leader in terms of telling people what to do. I prefer that we, uh, figure out, figure out things together so that there's no one person telling people what to do. And, Everybody's contributed equally.

And, and again, I think the biggest thing that I did as a leader was, was suggest that we take turns leading. 'cause that's what everybody wants to do. And, and, and the biggest problem that you might have is somebody losing motivation. 'cause we needed each person and this individual skills that they brought to the team.

So that was, that was the one single thing that I did that, that, uh, as a leader that made I think maybe all the, you all the difference in the world. 

Kush: That is insightful and I think worth a little bit of probing. So you talked about [00:33:00] how you were able to lead.

In a way where you were not directing people or telling people what to do instead, you were maybe opening a door for them. 

Kitty: Mm-hmm. 

Kush: Can you speak a little bit about that? 

Kitty: Mm. 

Kush: Because, because outside of this, you do all these other things, right? Mm-hmm. So, I, I, I'm, I'm guessing that your leadership style has only gotten, let's say, more refined, more polished mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. In the decades. And so, yeah. How, how do you lead and how do you, how do you, um, find that balance between, helping people rise to the occasion, but you know, not blowing them with tasks? 

Kitty: Yeah, it's been a learning, it, it still is a learning situation for me, [00:34:00] especially now that I, uh, I'm working with minority populations.

I don't know if that's the right word, but, I've been involved with, uh, bipoc, you know, black, indigenous people of color, LGBTQ plus. But mainly my work right now in the past few, two or three years has been with indigenous people and I've been learning not to speak for other people. It's really important as hard to stop myself because I'm used to speaking.

I'm used to talking. You get me going. I can. Well, I'm 

Kush: glad. I'm, I'm, I'm saying that that's one, one talent of yours that I'm glad to have because I'm here to have you speak. 

Kitty: Thank you. And, uh, anyway, but I can't say, I can't say, I try to hold myself back from, [00:35:00] say, from speaking for other populations that I'm not a part of, and, and also leadership.

Like, so my, my role as an ally, my job, I feel like is to, to open doors to open doors and to listen.

I learn a lot when I listen to other people The variety of thought, the variety of, of, uh, people and then in general cultures in our world, you know, is, is fascinating. And then we won't, won't always understand. you know, I won't always understand my husband.

Maybe I never will, but, but it's fascinating. Maybe, sorry, I'm 

Kush: sorry, but maybe that is one, uh, you know, surprise, uh, [00:36:00] ingredient to, I don't know, a good relationship. I mean, you wanna understand the other person, but maybe not completely.

Keep that surprise, you know, keep that little like Yeah. 

Kitty: Mystery. 

Kush: Katie, what is, yeah, I mean. This is a bit of a segue, but a, a fascinating one. What is the secret to being a, a good listener? What have you learned? 

Kitty: Hmm. Well, what I'm learning right now, especially right now, you know, it is there's polarization in America that there hasn't been before, or to the degree that we haven't had before, I believe.

And I believe that, a lot of times we're caught up in listening to, with the intent of how do I respond? and, uh, in particular, like I have to do that right now in this conversation with you. But, uh, you know, in particular when, you, you have the intent [00:37:00] of changing you, you wanna change somebody's mind or you. You know, my dad was an attorney and I, I thought, man, you know, it'd be really great if you could always, get people to think, agree with what you think, you know. And then I started realizing they're like, wait, maybe it you, maybe you don't want that.

I mean, maybe it'd be a bully. Maybe it's not right to always get your way because maybe you're not right all the time. And, and I think that it's, and so now I'm trying to learn to listen with the intent of understanding what the other person is trying to say.

Kush: Simple, but yeah. Simple words, but maybe requires dedicated focus. Yeah. And maybe even unlearning so many habits and traits we have.

You have been working with these populations? The [00:38:00] little that I know. Yes. Some of the populations talked about some of the, uh, the work that you're doing with enabling access, with helping maybe mitigate some of the effects of climate change. You, you're working with these, this, and I can't, disenfranchised groups.

Mm-hmm. I can't believe I actually was able to say that word. So you've been working with these groups, you pointed to the native, the indigenous, I think the Navajo Indian populations. Mm-hmm. Where you are. And you know, here you are, this white woman who's known for ing, you know, a sport that, and places that most of the people you're working with will never go to or attempt, right?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And how do you. Win the trust of these people because they have to let you in the door. 

Kitty: Mm-hmm. 

Kush: As, as you are trying to try to do things together with 'em. And I asked this because I, I, I mm-hmm. I was just thinking about this friend of [00:39:00] mine. He's a tall white guy from Wisconsin who works with climate justice, sorry, with, um, prison justice reform.

Kitty: Oh. So 

Kush: he's sitting down, he goes to these rooms with, you know, full of let's say, minority populations uhhuh, who have this inherent distrust 

Kitty: Yes. You know, 

Kush: accumulate for, for like, for like white people. So, yeah. I've heard him talk about the challenge he has working with, so I'm just curious, like, how have you learned how to, uh, be trusted?

Kitty: Mm-hmm. I mean, I have to say, it's, it's hard work. I haven't always been trusted. Um, there have been times where people have shut the door on me and they didn't recognize that my, you know, my intent is good. and, and I think that the, those people, um, just aren't ready to forgive and [00:40:00] there's no judgment there.

It's everybody's, you know, it takes time. I mean, I don't know, but that's what I, I imagine. And, and so, um, but others, others are ready and, and so I think it takes, just showing up and being, being consistent, so that they, they know that this isn't just like a one and done deal because, uh, yeah, definitely.

It seems like they're definitely wondering what your motives are, like what's in it for you? Right. Because there's been so much betray history of betrayal in the past. Right. And they have to work through that, or we have to work through that, I should say. And, and, and, um, so, and I'm still learning. I don't always get it right.

But, uh, I, I try as much as I can to get feedback, like, did [00:41:00] this, is this right? How does, how does this sound when I write something or putting something out there? and, and, and I read this book called Carbon Sovereignty. That really changed my way of thinking because until I read the book, I thought colonialism was a one-time land grab.

And by the end of the book I realized that it's much more than that, that it continues as subtle ways today.

so I really rely on, on a lot of my indigenous friends to be, to mentor me and to, with, with some, with a large degree of forgiveness because I'm, I'm trying, you know, but I don't know. I don't know. so I think listening, I've been studying Navajo trying to learn to speak Navajo for over a year and, uh,

and uh, and turn in and, and turn in [00:42:00] opportunities completely over to them. So trying to learn to be a good ally. This process 

Kush: did. Yeah. I mean, maybe that is. One proven secret, but not so secret way of winning somebody's trust to be able to speak in their language. And because that just cuts through all the noise.

I, I, I, I feel, I remember reading somewhere that, again, back in the colonial days, let's say back in the more overt colonial days mm-hmm. You know, we would have these, you know, English or British, whatever, aristocrats in India. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I come from India, so Yeah. I read some of that stuff growing up.

Mm-hmm. And you know, they would be managing like vast estates, vast estates, employing, I don't know, thousands, thousands of local people, right? 

Kitty: Mm-hmm. And 

Kush: I remember reading that. [00:43:00] The, was, they struggled with winning the trust of their, uh, of their local populations, right? Mm-hmm. And it was also mentioned matter of factly, that despite living in India for decades, they didn't even learn how to say, hello, how are you?

Kitty: Oh my God. 

Kush: So, so, so, you know, you, so I feel like, yeah, I mean, if, if one constantly expects the other person to bend to their will, right? Starting with, Hey, I'm in your land and I'm asking you to do my bidding or work with me, but you have to learn. Yeah. Learn my language. So 

Kitty: anyway, so the first word that I would learn in a foreign language is, thank you.

Right? 

Kush: Yes. Yes. Agreed. Agreed. Yes. And I, I, I believe I remember reading that you even took some trouble to learn. Nepalese, maybe Nepalese is easy. 

Kitty: Yeah, yeah, 

Kush: yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. [00:44:00] Nepalese is, I got 

Kitty: it over there and climbed over there so much. And it was, it was, it was fun. And it was funny 'cause I was just with my son and a bunch of his friends when we were talking about language or something and I, I can still remember how to count to 10 and Nepalese like decades later because hiking on the trail when we were, I would like say, okay, tell me if I have this right.

And I would count to a hundred Nepalese and the porters, you know, were just like, oh my, this lady, you know, she would give it up, you know? 'cause every single day. Yeah. The beginning of the day. Yes. Maybe you 

Kush: go nal and like you, you learn to send a must and maybe the second thing you learn to say is no more Alba, because 

Kitty: Yeah.

Kush: Gi a couple of through lines there that I want to pick up on. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah. I have to ask you this, which is the work you're doing today [00:45:00] and this work, yeah. This continues to inform your life. I mean, I feel like you come from such a unique place, maybe, maybe not the, the known, known places.

Kitty: Mm-hmm. You 

Kush: know, in the Rockies or out in California, we, where we find a lot of, uh, America's uh, climbers, ALP is coming from you grew up in the deep South. 

Kitty: Mm-hmm. 

Kush: And you grew up in a very different world than the one you live in. And I just wonder like if that, If that both informs the work you do.

Mm-hmm. And maybe at another level, maybe there is, I'm trying to, if you'll forgive me for being a little blunt here. Yeah. If there is, you know, some part of you that wants to make, I don't know, just some kind of corrections. Corrections for like 

Kitty: Yeah, yeah. Corrections for like, 

Kush: yeah. [00:46:00] So can you speak a little bit to that?

Kitty: Yeah. It is complicated. Um, because some, when you question your motivations, your motives, sometimes you don't even know, you don't even know yourself that well. You are like, where is this coming from? Like, is it coming from this or coming from that? And, and it makes perfect sense for me coming from a deep southern history, to be.

Trying to make amends for, that history, that family history in my work with, what did you call 'em? Underprivileged populations or, or under, uh, whatever was a big word that you spoke. Yeah. Dis I'm sure I have my coffee today. That was the word. That was the word. You did such a good job with that. anyway, so I could, you know, it's perfectly logical that, [00:47:00] that that's where this could be coming from.

this desire, you know. But the other thing is that, I mean, my whole life is gone along this path that I totally couldn't for have foreseen. like I never expected to be a climber be, and, and, because I was afraid of heights. So I went down our bound and I, even though I was afraid of heights, I ended up becoming a climber.

And then I never wanted to learn foreign languages in high school. It was a requirement, but I didn't see the purpose because I didn't see that I would foresee that I would be working in other countries. Like I told my French teacher, I'm never, no company is ever gonna send me to France to work. I didn't know what I was gonna do for work, but I didn't see that.

And she said, well, you need to, you need to appreciate other cul cultures. And, and then I ended up being an international mountain guide guiding mostly in Peru, Bolivia, and [00:48:00] Nepal. then, I didn't anticipate speaking in public because I'm afraid speaking in public. And I ended up giving a TED Talk and then I didn't anticipate, being an ambassador for Lion Energy talk, um, talking about batteries and solar power because I know nothing about electricity.

Like one time I tried to straighten this prong in a Christmas tree light with a knife and the thing was plugged into the wall. I didn't know, you know? And I mean, I know nothing and, and here I am. And the thing is, is that I really believe that I've been, called to do these things. And so I'm just, going through the doors that are being open for me and trying to share with others.

Kush: Katie, you grew up in. South Carolina in, in Greenville. Yeah. So [00:49:00] funnily enough, I also lived next door to you in Charlotte for many years. Oh wow. In the two thousands. So that's where I discovered rock climbing and that whole area. I guess Charlotte called itself the New South. Mm-hmm.

Whatever that means. But for sure, like, you know, you cross the border into South Carolina and the air smells different. 

Kitty: Yeah. It's 

Kush: a bit more traditional, more conservative. Yeah. Yeah. And the, the culture expectations for women are strong. And I'm talking about the two thousands. 

Kitty: Mm-hmm. 

Kush: a few decades before, sorry, A few decades after.

Kitty: Yeah. Right. 

Kush: Your time. Right, exactly. And, and those currents run like they run deep, right? Yeah. And so here's a question, maybe going back to some of your roots. Your path into the sport is not typical. 

Kitty: Hmm. 

Kush: But [00:50:00] I'm wondering if there's a, there's a funny way your environment shaped your decision to go this path.

Because one thing you know, I think most of us know, and I can just tell from this conversation is, is you do not come across as the kind of person who, who will follow what others 

Kitty: mm-hmm. 

Kush: Will lay out for you. 

Kitty: Mm-hmm. 

Kush: So, yeah, I'm, I'm just curious like, 

Kitty: Hmm, yeah, yeah. I can answer that. Yeah. 

Kush: Were you breaking the rules or were you simply creating freedom 

Kitty: that 

Kush: around you? Or, and maybe, maybe. Other people, other women, because even in the mid two thousands when I was climbing back in West Virginia mm-hmm.

I mean, yeah, back in North Carolina and the west, in West Virginia, like, there were very few women around me. Yeah. 20, 20 plus years ago and then 40 years ago. Right. Yeah. So I'm just curious, like, yeah, what was it about you, your mindset, what [00:51:00] you wanted for yourself that pushed you in this direction? 

Kitty: Yeah.

Yeah. Well, you might be able to relate to this, or I'm sure some listeners might be able to, but, when I was a teenager, I wanted to go hike on the Appalachian Trail with some friends, with some girlfriends, and my mom said no, because we didn't have enough experience. So, you know, when you're told no, like, you're just like, yeah, screw that.

You know, I'm gonna do this. And so I'm like, okay, I am gonna get the skills. So I, my mom will let me go hiking on the Appalachia Trail with my girlfriends and I can do it safely, you know? And so I went to the North Carolina Hour bound school, and that's when I first started rock climbing and faced the Spear Heights.

And, and before I went, I decided, well, I'm gonna be in the best shape that I, I could ever be in. So I was already a skier and a tennis player, and I was pretty driven and just skied all the time. Played tennis all the time. [00:52:00] And, and, um, so I started running. I got to where I was running eight miles a day every day, and before I went to Hour Bound.

So I was, you know, I was ready, like, I'm like, uh, this isn't gonna, this isn't gonna break me. And then, and when I went there, that might have been when I started thinking about.

Living each day like it might be, or last.

And, and when you do that, because it's, it's not a, you know, every day is not a given, but we take it for granted. Right. 

Kush: And, and, wait, wait a second. So you grew up in this, again, you grew up in this place. Like how did you Yes. Suddenly find this conviction? Like, were you, this, this, like, it's all, were you that dedicat, obsessive, like growing up?

Kitty: It's all false sense of security and, and down and down [00:53:00] south. Like, here's stereotypes, but you know, there's girls or women walking around like, oh, how are you doing today? You know, and they, they, they're just like, it's all like surface level, you know? And how many friends do you have? And, and, uh, see and be seen, you know, in these certain places.

And it's, it's all like this surface level and like, I really wanna dig deep, like I wanna know, like I wanna focus on what really matters, what's really important. Because tho that's where we find ultimate, look, just trying to understand that again, you know, these are all, everything we have is, is been, is a blessing.

We don't know how long it's here for, and we need to figure, figure this out. I just have this, you know, this need to understand what really matters and to live my life in a way that really [00:54:00] matters because I don't know how long I'll have it. I don't know how long I'll have my health. I don't know how long I'll have my friends, I don't know how long it, it'll, eventually, it all gets taken away.

It'll eventually, it's all, it, it, it goes away. It's gone.

Kush: Certainly. Well, you know, your mom maybe opened the doors by telling you not to do something and, uh, 

Kitty: and little, 

Kush: little, little did little did she know? 

Kitty: She know what she did, what she 

Kush: created. She started, and I, I believe that yeah. You were already. An adult, or at least, at least like older. When you started climbing, was there another path that was also laid out for you?

Had you, had you not chosen to, well get into the, into climbing and Alfred bound and this path was a different path? 

Kitty: Well, you know, the expectations down south are you, you get married and you have a husband and you're, uh, [00:55:00] you know, you, you take care of the house and the kids, and that's, you know, the path you're on.

That's it. 

Kush: Was it d for your family was difficult for your family, a kid to accept this path? I feel like sometimes, you know, parents see, see this thing in their, in their child as knowing as parents are, sometimes they. Can fail to see some, some things that are so obvious. Mm-hmm. So at what point, perhaps did your parents accept, or maybe they never accepted that?

Kitty: Yeah, no, you know, I mean, I shared with them openly. So they would be, they would be better prepared if some, if I didn't come back from a trip because I, I had another friend who didn't come back from a trip and his parents thought he was just out hiking. I mean, they had, they didn't have a clue. So it was pretty shocking for him.

And but, I think, I [00:56:00] think, I think it, it was hard on them, um, because back in the day when you went on an expedition, say, you know, went on, went on a trip to n uh, Nepal or India or Pakistan, uh. Wouldn't hear back. Back then, you could send letters, but you'd be home before the letter got home. there weren't, there wasn't cell service, there wasn't internet back then.

There were only collect phone calls from a payphone. So, 

Kush: yeah. 

Kitty: So they wouldn't hear from me 

Kush: More like sum of our younger listeners that this was certainly, this was the era before social media, before cell phones. Right. Before you could get service everywhere, like once you left home. Yeah. You, you may not hear from your family.

Kitty: Yeah. 

Kush: Or they won't hear from you for a while. So yeah. Maybe that was good in a way, you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. your parents, I guess they, they didn't really know what happened until you came home and then at some point [00:57:00] they realized that you had done something formidable.

Yeah. And going back to, you know, the, the macro story for a second. It seems like, you know, beyond some of your gifts, maybe your natural gifts, you know, you talked about being able to eat well, reasonably well at altitude, it seems like you also have this gift or this learned skill to be able to suffer. 

Kitty: Mm.

And 

Kush: to be able to, which I mean, it is certainly a, um, it is, yeah. It is a required attribute in, in, at, at pine climbing. But I mean, there, there are degrees. Mm. you seem to have found this focus and I'm just curious what, what that balance is. . Because I believe for a while you really paired down your living, right?

Kitty: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Kush: you were in the back of a car, Subaru, maybe SUV. Right? 

I [00:58:00] love climbing and all of that, but I, I think that myself and most of us don't have that capacity to be able to, constrain our, our living to that kind of simplicity. So tell us about that time 

Kitty: Yeah. what I did, I was in, um, at University of Vermont and this guy had asked me to, do the presidential traverse in winter in a single push. And, I'd never done anything like that. I thought, yeah, this would be interesting, you know, and it was a full moon.

So he started out and we had snowshoes, but we're like, ah, we don't need these. So we let put 'em back in the car And then before you know it, we're actually postholing and it, and it took a lot of energy and a lot more time than we anticipated. by the time we got to, the top of Mount Washington, this guy was [00:59:00] getting hypothermic.

we had, I had insisted that we each bring sleeping bags. 'cause like, I'm like, God, what's the worst thing that that could happen? Like, we could end up, somebody gets hurt above tree line, it's like we need to have sleeping bags. and so, um, we got up there and the, the, there's a, a tower, a, um, building up there and, but it was closed, it was locked.

Nobody was there. We couldn't get in. And there was a, um, sort of this, uh. Corner that where the wind was, blowing past it so that it was protected and inside corner was protected from the wind. And so I said, well, just get your sleeping bag here and I'll, I'll wake you up in a couple hours. I woke up.

I'd fallen asleep, and I was, and I was shivering. So I started doing jumping jacks, and that didn't warm me up. And so then I ate a Snickers bar [01:00:00] and I got warm right away. And so I realized like, wow, okay, I always need to have a Snickers bar with me. but anyway, uh, it was, it was challenging.

It was really beautiful, the sunrise, it was just a bright red ball in the sky that came up over the mountains, just amazing. And, um, and I was intrigued, but I also, you know, again, I was thinking about, okay, what really matters? What do you need? What do you don't, what can you get away without what's extra baggage?

and it's this thought of this, uh, minimalism that's helped me all along the way in being a successful alpinist. But I also think that, It goes along with the thought of voluntary simplicity and, and, um, which is about, focusing on the things that really matter so that you don't spend time and energy, you have limited time and energy in your life, right?

And, and so you don't [01:01:00] wanna spin it on the things that aren't important. You wanna be able to focus on what's most important and these other things just become a distraction. The extra food, the extra clothes, the extra whatever it is that you don't need to accomplish your goal. Whatever that could, whatever that is.

Kush: Can you actually just describe, uh, what that existence for you was like? 

Kitty: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd love to. It was, so I was in a Subaru and what I did was I thought, okay, what I'm gonna do is, um. I'm gonna, so after that experience, I thought, okay, I, I was gonna graduate in December, so it's gonna spend January in Colorado, February in, um, in Wyoming and March in the Cascades in April and the Palisades.

And so I, uh, took the back seat out of my Subaru and I could put, a foot locker there and then put this plywood board fit [01:02:00] level on the rear wheel wells and the Foot locker. And so I could sleep on that and hide stuff underneath the, um, the board and then keep stuff in my foot locker. And then I only, you know, I only had two of everything because you don't wanna have too much because otherwise you can't find anything and it takes up space.

So. All you need is like two pairs of pants, long pants, you know, two pairs of underwear, two pairs of socks, two long sleeve shirts, right? That's it. Hat gloves. and so I had everything paired down just looked out of there. And, and I didn't have, you know, I didn't have any bills 'cause I didn't rent a house, so I had no bills.

So I didn't really have any mail and I didn't have a cell phone back then 'cause they didn't exist. and then I just, uh. Set aside $3,000 a year to live off of. So I'd get [01:03:00] $3,000 out of the beginning of the year, like January 1st in traveler's checks, drive out west and then start alpine climbing in the wintertime.

And then, money I made, um, working for Outward Bound or working for American Alpine Institute, I would just put in the bank to save until the next year. And so I had $14 a week for food. So that was $2 a day. And what I learned from my friend LY Dean was that like, you can live on that. Like you eat vegetables, vegetables, you know, aren't very expensive.

and, and, uh, made these giant pancakes. They were homemade pancakes, but they were like, you couldn't eat one, you couldn't finish one. It was so heavy. So you'd have to put it in your pocket because it's like you, you know, you're gonna be going, you're gonna be going for hours and hours and hours. 

Kush: Wow. And how and how long did you Uh, seven years.

Seven years. 

Kitty: Yeah. 

Kush: Yeah. Seven years [01:04:00] in the back of a Subaru. Yeah. 

Kitty: I mean, when I was working for American Aop Alpine Institute, I just had to park my car somewhere and then fly overseas and, you know, again, I wasn't paying rent in Bolivia, 

Kush: you know? That's true. 

Kitty: Right? 

Kush: That's true. okay, fine question. Was there any point in those years, again, you know, living this, this life of simplicity and focus where maybe you thought you had pushed things too far?

I mean, again, like I said, I, I'm in a van, but there are moments times when I'm like, oh gosh, you know, I'm here parked on the side of this highway in Central Mexico and I. I have, I'm connected to all of technology, but my van stove is not working and I cannot make a hot, hot meal. Right. So from, for me, that I feel like that was the height of privation.

Sorry. But like, that was what it was. So compared to like, compared to like your time, like [01:05:00] what might have been maybe, let's say the Nter or maybe the, maybe the Zenit. I don't know. It could be one and the same. 

Kitty: You, you know, it was easy. I was in my twenties. This other technology didn't exist. It, so there might've been less, temptations or distractions then.

But, it was easy. It was fun. as when I, I decided, well, I'm not gonna live it with anybody because that's. Before I get married because that's too much of a commitment. Like either they're committed to me and I'm moving out of the Subaru or they're not, you know, and I'm gonna live in the Subaru and keep doing my thing.

And maybe, 

Kush: maybe two people in the Subaru maybe that might have 

Kitty: Yeah. Been too much 

Kush: even for you, 

Kitty: that wouldn't, that wouldn't work. So it's like, okay. When I found, you know, when I found the perfect person, then that wa that was when things were gonna change. Like, I would move out of the Subaru, I would have an address, might have bills to pay, and that was gonna [01:06:00] be, that was gonna be it.

But, you know, seven years and it all, yeah, it all worked out. It was a good seven years, 

Kush: it's, yeah. a really fun, in a way, episode of your, of your life. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah. But I think there is a profound lesson here. Mm-hmm. And. Do you, do you think our culture today has lost touch with that kind of simplicity?

Kitty: I think it's, I imagine that it's more challenging for, for people because we, we have, we're in constant contact. You, I mean, we have that ability, so, you know, there's always good, there's, there's good and bad. Like you can get better weather forecasts, and the Himalayas, if you have set up with a friend that you can get the forecast through your, uh, device.

so, so, so it's kind of, it's kind of different. there's more information so you can be better [01:07:00] prepared. the, I, I guess the challenges are, are different. 

Kush: I agree that they're different and technology enables a lot of things, but, but I also think that this point that you made, which was that one, when one has that kind of focus, you know, it simplifies things. Mm-hmm. Then one doesn't care if one may not have lots of clothes or a fancy meal for dinner.

Kitty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And 

Kush: I, I don't know, may maybe you have some words on like, how 

Kitty: Yeah. People 

Kush: listening. 

Kitty: Yeah, I do. Listening. You who may 

Kush: not be climbers, who may not be climbers, or even at, even athletes who, how can they find that focus? Because I think all of us need a, I mean, this is a time of like deep mental crisis in this country, like Yeah, yeah, 

Kitty: yeah, 

Kush: yeah.

How can, how can we find that focus and simplicity? 

Kitty: Yeah. You know, I mean, for me it's, nature outdoors. I mean, nature is one thing that's not manmade. [01:08:00] And so there's a deeper connection there that when you talk about mental health and it's, you can't even separate it from, you can't compartmentalize, I don't think nature in an indigenous way of thinking the way you can and say my culture, or my, uh, bringing background, whatever.

there's some of these values that I, that help me feel a connection to indigenous people when I view their relationship with the earth. Everything in it is being inextricably related. And we, we separate things out, we categorize things, um, and we, today, a person, a kid could grow up in a city and not be able to develop a [01:09:00] relationship with the outdoors.

And I feel that, that it's, unfortunate for that kid because

that outdoors is, you know, it's the real world. 

Kush: No, thank you. I, I think, yeah, they probably. All kinds of complex solutions for, solution remedies, for, for, for combating, uh, fragile mental health. 

Kitty: Yeah. 

Kush: But one, so, so short way is exposure to nature. 

Kitty: Yeah. 

Kush: And the healing that can bring, and I mean, it's, yeah.

Yeah. Like you said, it's easier said than done because if your upbringing doesn't bringing it Yeah. Bring you to nature or you find some kind of calling like you did 

Kitty: uhhuh, 

Kush: then one might just stay ignorant of that [01:10:00] power. Yeah. Yeah. And, and ki maybe this is, this is a good point to ask you a little bit about.

The work you did with co-founding your company and your organization. I think you have a new name, I think it used to be called Chicks with Pigs, it's called something else now. And I'm just curious, like, you probably get clients of, of all kinds of backgrounds, but do you see, and do you seek for that kind of transformation to occur in your clients, you know, more than just helping them learn technical skills to be able to, to, to rock, climb or ice climb?

Do you, do you see people return with a deeper appreciation for Yeah. For these places? 

Kitty: Yeah. so it was started, chicks with Picks was started back in like 1999, I think, uh, by Kim Reynolds, who was a friend of mine and I was the first, [01:11:00] Started guiding for her, teaching for her the very first year. taught every year since.

And then in, oh, I think it was like 2015, 14, we, we, uh, myself and four other guides bought the business from her. And, um, we added, she had already added rock climbing and we called it chicks Rock, those clinics, chicks, rock. And then we started skiing and that was chicks with sticks. And then there was, alpine climbing.

And so we called the whole thing chicks, climbing and skiing after a while. And, and we ended up selling that during the, during COVID. yeah, so I'm re officially retired now, although I'm kind of working with my projects. the thing about chicks was it, was it. Kim start. When Kim started it, the only female ice climbers we saw in the U ray ice park were women who were [01:12:00] belaying their male partners.

and, uh, their male partners were setting up the anchors and leading the climbs if they were leading the roots. And, and, uh, Kim's like, this is, you know, this has gotta change. And so that's why she started chicks with picks and, and I feel like it has changed. If you go in the Ray Ice Park in the winter, see just as many women commerce leading as men and climbing as well as men.

So, the, what I learned, what I've learned and also from listening to a, a, this researcher on the differences between men and women is, is it women learn better? Typically learn better in all women environments because they're less intimidated to ask questions. And that, that's how you learn the best is by asking questions.

and so these women that came to these clinics progress quite quickly [01:13:00] and it, it made a difference in their lives. You know, the confidence that they gained through climbing transferred into other areas of their lives with their marriages, with their work, the lessons that you learn in common. I've seen them transferred there through the clinics at Chicks Common and Ski, and also. There's another story I wanna tell you was working with, uh, um, Herra Foundation, women with ovarian cancer. And, um, I was asked to give a, a slideshow once and I thought about it and thought, wondered, thought about what it must be like because I haven't experienced it myself, but to live with cancer and not know if you're gonna basically not know if you're gonna live or die and if you're gonna survive.

And then I realized, like I've been in this situation myself [01:14:00] climbing, and, uh, where specifically I talked about, uh, an experience on Teles Sager, where we were up at like 21,000 feet in a snowstorm in a Portage. So, you know, Portage This was in 1986 where Andy Seltzers now are trying a new route on the north face.

And there weren't any portal edges out on the market light enough of me. Clearly. This was like a vertical face that was, it started as a, as a snow, CES sort of that led up to, um, really brilliant granite and mixed climbing. And then there was a, a rotten shell layer above that, and then another snow cone to the summit.

so we, we designed and built a portal edge with the help of a friend Rick Lipkey. And this ledge was, um, triangular shaped. It was six feet wide at the widest and 12 feet. [01:15:00] No, I mean, sorry. Four feet wide at the widest and six feet long. And, uh, Andy is over six feet tall, so it was a bit of a scrunch for him.

But, so here we are, like on this platform, right? Triangular platform, six feet long at the longest, four feet wide at the widest. and this, this storm came in and it lasted for eight days. So the snow started pounding, coming down off the, the snow cone at the top. These avalanches started coming down regularly.

And the first avalanche that hit our portage, we have a fly over it, but, you know, we're hanging back. We didn't have, there wasn't place for like. PEs or much less cams. And, and, and, uh, so we had, we were hanging off ice screws, which is probably the first time in history that it'd ever been done. I can't remember how many ice screws we had.

'cause we were scared to death, right. [01:16:00] To, spend the night hanging off ice screws. But anyway, those first, oh yeah. And we had mis calculated the stress that would be put on one of the corners of the ledge. And that corner broke, like, I think our first night out. So we had to tie it back together with webbing.

So anyway, the first avalanche that hit her portal ledge, I'm just holding on to the sides of the ledge, just praying, you know, that the anchors would hold and it'd be okay. And the avalanche went over and everything was okay. These avalanches started coming down regularly as the, the wall was shed and snow as a big storm.

This storm lasted for eight days. So eight days we're sitting here in this le laying in this ledge, not knowing if we were gonna survive. Oh my God. I mean, because I've been in long storms before, but never eight days. And, so you're in limbo. You're in limbo. You don't know [01:17:00] if you're gonna live or die, so you can't plan ahead.

And so what we would do is we would just get into a routine. 'cause routines provide sort of a sense of security or routineness, you know, something you can count on if you have routine when you're in a state of limbo. And so we would get up in the morning and make, uh, a cup of hot tea have a pallet biscuit with peanut butter on it or something.

And, and then, and then, lunch we'd have, Ramen noodles and then dinner, we would, uh, maybe split a freeze dried dinner. and then in between time we would, you know, take a nap after breakfast, after lunch. and then in other than that, you know, Andy had an encyclopedic mis memory, so I would ask him like, the history of whatever, you know, and that was, but that was the same thing every day, all day, just laying on your back.

[01:18:00] and, and there was nothing to look forward to because you didn't know. these lessons you learn, you know, these things you learn from common that are, uh, that you, that you, that you help you as you navigate daily life. Because the thing is, is that daily life is. People call it daily or normal or whatever.

But when you think about it, the normal experiences that people go through are extraordinary events. I mean, the birth of a child is an extraordinary event. celebrate the graduation from high school or college. a big, a big game that you played in that you know, is like these, these are, extraordinary events that are, they're actually, that, that are, that are available to everybody that's part of normal life.

And that, you know, life [01:19:00] is really cool that way. Right? Yeah. I'm not privileged because I got to stand on the summit of Makalu. I mean, I am, but you know what I mean? Others have had experiences that are extraordinary too, but we call 'em normal 'cause everybody gets to do it. But they're extraordinary.

Kush: I think somebody's ordinary experience could be extraordinary for, for somebody else. Like I, I'm not a parent. Like I have a, I have a fur baby. 

Kitty: Yeah. 

Kush: But I don't have, I don't have kids. Right. Yeah. And I hang out with family members and friends who have kids. Yeah. And they're asking me about like, you know, my off the beaten path life.

Yeah. And you know, like, uh, expressing some level of, uh. You know, combination of, I don't know, both awe and, uh, maybe even disdain, [01:20:00] but, uh, but the thing is, The, the kind of stuff you've had, it's obviously boggles the mind, right? Mm. Being on the side of a 21 of a mountain, way off in the frontiers of this planet for eight days, but at the same time, like, somebody having a baby.

For me, that is an absolutely jaw dropping event because it's, it's, it's normalized, but it is still a huge thing. Mm-hmm. And, you know, I was, I was just thinking of this, you know, like these days you hear of psychologists like talk about like how one cure for, again, for like a lot of our maladies is our addiction to like our phones.

And I'm like, yeah, well if you, if you end up on a portal edge, in South Asia, like eight days [01:21:00] in a blizzard, I mean, that's one way to force, force the addiction. coming to the, coming to the end of, uh, our conversation, it's been amazing. you once, I think you once said that you didn't expect to live past 30.

Kitty: Mm-hmm. 

Kush: Yeah. And I mean, here you are, you know, decades later you are still climbing. You are teaching, I mean, you're thriving. Mm-hmm. And all the ways that I can see. So, so what does being ageless mean to you? 

Kitty: Mm. Yeah. Boy, Tom is just mysterious, isn't it? The way it, it goes by and you change, and you don't feel like you're different, but you are DI mean, you look in the mirror and you are different, right?

And it's just, I don't know your mind, in your mind. You still may have the drive of a 20-year-old, but you, but your, your body, even if you're fit and [01:22:00] healthy, is not performing at the sa same level. Like, I just went for a run with my 20-year-old son and, or he is in his twenties, you know? And it's like, yeah, my mind might be there, you know?

Uh, but my body's, my body's not even though I've taken care of it, right? So it's just, oh, Tom's a funny thing is so boy, I don't know. I think for me it's just important to, when I run, go for a run, I don't always feel like going for a run, but then I remind myself that like, Hey, I'm not always gonna be able to run, so I need to run because, um, I can, because I can, because I've got this blessing. And the way you show appreciation is you use it, you know, this healthy body, this fit body.

And so I, that, that is a big [01:23:00] motivation to keep, um, going in, in athletics when I don't feel like, when I may not be otherwise motivated. And, and I think, practicing daily. Consistency, especially as an aging athlete. I mean, yes, we're all aging, but, an aged athlete, um, I think that consistency is important and so that's why I'm actually trying not to travel as much so that I can be super consistent.

Yeah. I mean, I have a routine, you know, that I'm trying to keep up with. Sure, 

Kush: sure. Yeah, I would love to spend a minute on that routine. So, yeah, obviously, uh, belief and desire is a big part, like mm-hmm. You want to go climbing and you want to be able to run and enjoy your body movement and nature, but yeah.

Are there any specific things that you have learned and developed like. [01:24:00] It could be, you know, physical practices with the way you look after yourself, exercise, mobility, maybe diet things that have worked for you and maybe things that have not. 

Kitty: um, a creature of, uh, like, I've got these,

I eat the same thing every day except for dinner at the same time every day. And because 

Kush: don't tell me eat eating, build bars every, every, every morning. 

Kitty: Yeah. But when I, when I'm, when I'm, um, like on non common days that you, that's when I have to get in the car and get going. You know, but, and then, uh, uh, other, but if I'm not getting in the car and getting, going on my climb on a climbing day, then uh, I have, um, fruit And yogurt and homemade granola, that's got a lot of seeds and nuts in it. And then uh, 11 o'clock, I'll have half a quarter water and a homemade bar that's [01:25:00] granola and gorp and brown rice syrup. And then one o'clock or after my last workout, I'll have a protein shake, and then at four o'clock I'll have the other half of my bar and other half a quarter water.

And then, you know, then I have dinner. And it's like, the thing is, is that if you, if you eat the same thing every day, uh, I've gotten a lot of shit from this, from my son, but anyway, it, it, and, and others. it's so easy to go to the grocery store, right? Because you know just how much you need you can go.

And what you need, what you need and how much you need. And you like, you're in and, and out of there super fast. Like you're super efficient. Same thing like when you go climbing, like on a big wall, you know exactly what you need and how much you need. You're in there and you're out of there. And there's no question about, oh, what am I gonna eat today?

Like, you don't have to worry about it. It's just like if you're living in your Subaru and you only have two pairs of pants, doesn't take you very long to figure out which pair you're gonna wear, whichever pair you didn't wear yesterday, [01:26:00] 'cause you don't wanna wear the same pair every day or whatever. I don't know.

You know, it's just like a pretty quick decision, right? Because that stuff, I don't know, whatever. You just get it done and it's, you're efficient and there, there you go. And so, so, so, so that's what I do in terms of nutrition and it, and it works. My body knows what to expect and, and you know, the thing about running is like, I own this running program now, so I had to get.

Both my hips resurfaced 20 years ago because just I think that you're born with a, um, most of us are probably born with, um, an imperfect joint, you know, it could be, could be wrist, elbow, shoulders, neck, back, And I was born with slight hip dysplasia, which I didn't know until my surgeon told me, but I didn't know anyway, and I don't think I ever would've known had I not overdone it in terms of, um, you know, when I was a teenager, I did a lot of downhill skiing, bump skiing, and then, and then, uh, and [01:27:00] then I started running.

Did a lot of running, did a lot of guiding, carry and climb, personal climbing, carrying heavy packs in the mountains. um, got my hips resurfaced. They're all good now, but, you know, I was never able to really run, especially on the flats without feeling pain somewhere. And then, and you know, I just always wanted to be able to run like I did in my twenties, you know, just feel that flow, right?

Feel just like you could go forever and, um, without pain. And then I got this polar, this simplest polar watch they make, and it's, uh, and it's got a running program on it. So I'm like, oh, I'll check out the running program. It was in the winter and I stepped on the treadmill. I'll, I'm like, I'll see if it hurts to run the treadmill.

It didn't hurt. So then I enter this, like, you have to enter like what, what distance you wanna run for your race in three months and then you, and you enter your, your age and I can't remember what else. Anyway, So I did that. So then I'm [01:28:00] running on the treadmill that first week it was like way too slow.

I'm like, I can't do this. So I changed my age and made myself five years younger. Well, at the end of the month I've made myself 20 years younger. And this watch still to this day thinks, I think I might have even changed it back every another time. So it thinks I'm 21 years younger than I am. But the point being is that it, it tells you the, the, um, heart rate zone you should be in for your age and, uh, and and length, the time that you should be in these different heart rate zones.

So your different runs, right? You know, I'm running about four or five days a week and, uh, I've been running without pain. And so the thinking about running has changed so that most, mostly you're running. it's, it's about running consistently without being injured. Because if you run hard every day like I used to run, then you get injured and then it sets you back.

You, you know, you're better off not [01:29:00] getting injured in the first place. And then I had another person this massage therapist who had worked on a, a big time runner who said that from Kenya. Who said that? Yeah, Americans mostly, you know, when they run slow, they run too fast, and when they run fast, they run too slow.

So you really should be paying, you know, like when you run slow, you really supposed to be running slow and recovering, sort of, or whatever. And when you run fast, then you're supposed to, um, really give her, and so anyway, that's been. Big for me because I always wanna feel like I can move and like I'm ready to go.

Like somebody calls me tomorrow, like, Hey, let's go to the Himalayas, got this peak, you know, and looks good and, and uh, like I'm ready to go. Like I'm fit, I'm ready, ready to go, whatever, whenever. because I have, I have the health and so I've been, um, taking it, you know, I haven't been taking that for big for granted.

I've been, um, maintaining my fitness and trying [01:30:00] and, you know, and, push my climbing. 

Kush: Sounds like the interventions that have allowed you to be able to run specifically, you talked about getting your hips resurfaced. You talked about, you know, using some technology, this, uh, watch that you have.

Kitty: Yeah, yeah. 

Kush: That you had to, Fiddle with. Yeah. So that it would, Like actually, you know, 

Kitty: And I go to the weight room because, 

Kush: okay. I think 

Kitty: support too. But see, I don't think that, I don't know. I mean, you know, I have books written by people who, who are better coaches, more scientific than I am about rock common.

But I, I, I'm not sure that you get all, all the, that you're able to work out all the muscles. 

Kush: good. No, I agree. Yeah. 

Kitty: You know, without going to the gym, besides that, I like the gym. It's good.

Kush: Makes all of that. Makes a lot of sense. awesome. Katie, uh, maybe a few closing [01:31:00] questions. Uh, for us, what might be one lesson from the mountains that. Transfers best to everyday life for you.

Kitty: I mean, if you're climbing in the mountains and you, you have to be aware and thoughtful

and, and, and also appreciative. Because you don't know. You don't know what's gonna happen. So you wanna be, be as best prepared as you can. And I, I think that, you know, you go into it being grateful for whatever,

whatever happens, at least you had the opportunity to be in this place at this time with whoever it is you're with. You know that, that gratefulness because when you're grateful, then you don't take things for [01:32:00] granted. and then everything becomes more focused, you know, you prioritize and you, you're thoughtful and, and things are more meaningful. So maybe if it came down to one thing, you know, it's, it's being grateful. Think 

Kush: attitude. Uh, of gratitude.

Kitty: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Kush: Yeah. Beautiful. 

Kitty: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It, it, it has, you know, that, that's leads to success in so many different ways. Right. 

Kush: What does something you believed early in your career that you see differently now?

Kitty: Early in my career, that I see differently now,

I think now I have a much appreci, a greater appreciation for, [01:33:00] um, normal, what we were talking normal or, you know, I mean, um, I'm appreciating, I'm taking advantage of, My backyard. and, and the, and the awesomeness of, of of, of what normal life is that I never, I guess I would have to say I didn't fully appreciate, you know, I, I wanted something more and now I'm pretty grateful for those things that, Sure. Yeah. 

Kush: Um, I like to call it earned appreciation, 

Kitty: you know, I'll have to agree with that because I remember going on a ice climbing trip in the winter. It was in Canada with a friend. We were both at University of Washington getting our MBAs and uh, it was Brit Bishop and we were going ice climbing in Canada.

We were riding in my Subaru. And, um, we didn't make it to the hostel that night. He said [01:34:00] something about sleeping in the back of the Subaru with me. And I said, no, son. He was a couple years younger than me. No son. You're going to Everest and you haven't even biv whacked in your life. You need to sleep out in the snow drift there.

And so I made him sleep outta this snow and it was brutally caught. It was way below zero. And I hear this knocking on the door and it wasn't even light yet. And he is like, I'm called, let me in. Let's go to the next rest. Stop. So I can like warm up.

Yeah. So I sort of think you have to earn it. Like yeah, you definitely, 

Kush: man, you are a, a, a tough, a tough task master always. No, I feel maybe I, I feel in retrospect, this person will, will, uh. Appreciate 

Kitty: he made it up, I think. Yeah. So, and it was probably all because he got the [01:35:00] experience build whacking on the side of the road in Canada when I wouldn't let him in the car with me.

Kush: Oh, that's a, that's a good one. Yeah, that's a good one. What does one habit, giddy habit, or belief or, or behavior that you have picked up in the last few years that's made the biggest impact in your life? 

Kitty: I'm just such a consistent person and I've always been grateful that I happen to be disciplined.

And, uh, discipline is just, has, , uh. Made a huge difference in my life. I mean, I can't imagine what it'd have, what it'd have been like, being able to do the same things that I've done or be where I am now if I hadn't been so disciplined. You know, both in terms of what I eat and drink and, [01:36:00] um, you know, the exercise schedule.

And I guess

probably that's made more of a difference is, is I've gotten older now that I think about it because, you know, there have been times where I've been in the gym where I was like, God, how many days have I spent in the gym in my whole life? Right? And then it's like, here I am, here I go again. And I have friends and, and my husband doesn't like working out in indoors.

even a climbing, indoor climbing gym. and it's like, ah, you know, I can, I can do it. I can be at, be driving across the country and stop at a hotel and go, you know, to their little gym there and run on the treadmill. I mean, I don't have to be running outside. I can adapt.

I can do that because, cause I can adapt and also because I have, I have discipline that I think is, yeah. May, might take a little more when you, when you get older. 'cause you're like, well yeah, [01:37:00] right. Haven't I earned that time on the beach drinking my ties yet? aren't I there yet? When am I gonna be there yet?

not there yet. 

Kush: Well for some reason Kiri, I can't imagine you lasting more than one day at the beach doing that. 

Kitty: Drinking my TA

Kush: kit. do you think your best days. Are behind you or ahead of you? 

Kitty: They're different, you know, I mean there's, I had good days in my twenties, you know, I mean, like a lot of 'em, a lot, a lot of 'em. And uh, they're, they're times when, yeah. I mean, it'd definitely be good to feel like that or be doing that or be looking forward to that for sure. But, you know, I never wanted to be sort of old and put all my eggs in one basket, even though I was so dedicated and focused because. I was just worried about missing out. I have [01:38:00] this big FOMO thing, you know, I don't like missing out and, uh, but then, you know, there's, there's sacrifices and balances and just, and it's different for everybody. But for me, I wanna keep pushing myself in whatever way that may be. And right now I still have the opportunities to push myself physically. you know, that could end, I don't know. Um, I mean, that could end, right?

And, but then hopefully I'll keep pushing. You know, there's other ways you can push yourself and hopefully I'll be able to keep, keep pushing and, um, and, and it's in some ways, you know, they talk about climbing being a selfish pursuit, but hopefully you learn, you learn from these experiences and you, can pass that wisdom on, share those lessons on and [01:39:00] grow and, and, uh, be a part of other people's growth so that we all move forward together.

Kush: I love that, Katie. Yeah. Many truths. Yeah. For all of us here. And then final question. If there was a billboard on the side of a highway close to you, and you could, you could have it say whatever, what message would you, would you leave?

Kitty: I would be honored if it said she was a good and faithful servant. 

Kush: Hmm.

The message needs to be for others to follow, or maybe I'm not 

Kitty: Yeah, but honoring 

Kush: that correctly. 

Kitty: Yeah. But people can, uh, people, people, I mean, I think it's something to think about. What does that mean? What does that mean to me? What does mean in, in my [01:40:00] life? How could I, what, how would I, could I be that?

How

Yes. 

Kush: Yes. Yeah. Uh, no, I think that's perfect. I, I, I, I think. Honestly, I think that answer, I think it goes back to what you were talking about, your leadership style.

Mm. Which is, I think it's not, it's not telling people 

Kitty: mm-hmm. 

Kush: What to do. 

Kitty: Yeah. It is 

Kush: being this example. Mm-hmm. Or, or, or telling people. Yeah. Or just, just, just not, not telling, but like, just informing people what you stand for 

Kitty: mm-hmm. And 

Kush: what guides you and mm-hmm. Allowing people to, to reflect. 

Kitty: Mm-hmm. 

Kush: And take away that lesson for themselves.

Kitty: Yeah.

Kush: Yeah. It's been a pleasure having you on the podcast. Thank you so much for coming on today. 

Kitty: Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for having me.