Use It or Lose It: Why Buzz Burrell Never Stopped

Ageless Athlete - Buzz Burrell
===

Kush: [00:00:00] I always start with this question, which is, where are you right now and what did you have for breakfast this morning?

Buzz: I'm in Frisco, Colorado on the shore of Di Reservoir, and I had the same thing for breakfast I have every morning, which is power porridge, you could say, which is rolled outs with fruit, nuts, protein powder, and things like that.

Kush: Ba I'm, my, my breakfast is, very similar, but when I describe it as,my, my multi-grain cereal bowl, I think I lose people. So I might try to borrow your,your breakfast name, because I think it just sounds so much punchier

Buzz: Right.

Kush: and it's been, great, to trade, notes with you.

I believe you were traveling recently and now you are back at home front. I'm curious,, what were you [00:01:00] doing, any fun adventures or stretch of wilderness that you got into?

Buzz: yeah, I still am traveling actually. I'm, I have a migratory lifestyle. We own a house in Moab. I spent most of the winter there, but then bumped into Boulder to do a few things, medical issues, actually. And then I've been here in Dillon Reservoir, Frisco, Colorado. We're renting a condominium here for 10 days, and then I fly to the Alps on Friday, July 11th.

Kush: Wow.

Buzz: Yeah. And actually went to California. for Trail Con, the trail conference that was in between Broken Arrow, sky Race, and Western States 100.

Kush: Absolutely nomadic. Indeed. thanks again for making the time to speak with us today. I had not heard of Cray Con. The Western States was all over the news. What is Trail Con. 

Buzz: [00:02:00] Dylan Bowman, along with, Madigan, who's the director of Western States and another person named Doug Emsley, the three of them put together a trail conference in between these two major events be because, broken Arrow is a major event on the international calendar. It's part of the Golden Trail Series, and it's also the uphill qualifying race for the United States Mountain Running team. And so we had international athletes there, national athletes, then Western States is literally the same place. The starting lines are almost the same, five, six days later. And so they organized a trail conference in between people are there anyway, and I think it went quite well. So you can Google that if you want.

It's Trail con, CON one word. if you want to attend next year, it's open to anyone. But there was a couple hundred people there, a lot of industry people, runners professionals, media brand managers, and people like that. 

Kush: Got it. It sounds like it's a [00:03:00] trail running or maybe trail sports conference bringing together maybe both athletes, industry and media and and what were you doing there?

Buzz: as it happens, I was inaugurated into the initial hall of fame, so I was, inducted into the initial trail Con Hall of Fame. And so that's literally why I was there.

Kush: Oh, nice. congratulations.

Buzz: Thank you.

Kush: There are people listening who may not know who you are, but so well, you are a hall of famer now, but otherwise, how do you describe yourself these days?

Buzz: I haven't died yet, and so that comes in really handy. If yet, you just don't die. you start to reap the awards, as in their later decades. It's ironic because I'm significantly slower than I used to be. I used to do all kinds of things, but [00:04:00] now I just haven't died. So I'm being recognized more than I was at that time. But I have done quite a few things. I ran my first ultra marathon distance 58 years ago before most people were born that I'm associated with. And I'm still am. I go to the Alps every year. I put in a new variation of a high route. Last year, I still race a dozen times every year. I went to the World Masters Mount Running Championships two years ago, then in business, I helped bring popularized the idea of mountain running when I worked with Las Sportiva and I, later I managed ultimate direction and really helped. Introduce running vests into the market. running vests are the standard thing now, but they didn't used to be before Ultimate direction. And then I co-founded Fastest known time, so I helped popularize the entire FKT concept. I, hosted the fastest known podcast, then I recently have been [00:05:00] podcasting for Ultra Signup. The podcast is called The Buzz, easy to find Low Hanging Fruit for that name. So feel free to track that one down. It releases every other Tuesday. 

Kush: beautiful buzz. You certainly have a legacy in the world of Martin sports and beyond and there's so many stories and, and legends about you and you spent so many, yeah, so much of your life in wild environments, mountains and trails. But you've also done a ton of canyoneering and when I was thinking about like, how do we break into some of your adventures and talk about should ask you because as a rock climber, I have never fully understood the pull of canyoneering.

it seems like you do a [00:06:00] whole lot of repelling, but. little to no climbing. you're carrying like a bunch of red gear heavy packs. Yeah. so to me it seems like a lot of type two fun and with, with little reward. but I know that there's something deeper there, right?

Because that's why you keep going back. That's why it attracts a lot of people. So what is it about can, that

Buzz: in?

thanks for, thank you for asking. It was indeed. we've talked about running for a couple minutes there, but I've been in active, if I may digress and broaden it up a little bit. I've competed in road cycling, mountain cycling, and gravel cycling. I've competed on standup paddleboards, on kayaks

Kush: Wow.

Buzz: and yeah, I pre competed in volleyball, even swing dancing for that matter, skiing, multiple ski races, always cross country There's no such thing as a race. But, for many [00:07:00] years I was an active canyoneering. And to come back to your particular question, I think it's the environment climbing has a. extremely long history, obviously, and it has this numerical grade and so you naturally wanna go from, five, five to five eight to five et cetera, et cetera.

And so it has this appeal to the nature of wanting to get the higher number, but also there is this joy of movement and being those surroundings. And I think in canyoneering is entirely the latter. 'cause once you drop into a canyon, you're in another world which is truly remarkable. These can be dry canyons, they can be wet canyons. And for example, my partner at the time, Jared Campbell and, a good friend of ours, Ryan McDermott, did the three biggest canyons in Zion National Park in one day. And all three of them have wet potholes and. the temperature outside can be [00:08:00] 100 degrees and we are wearing full body wetsuits. we even pull the hoods up because it's so cold down those potholes because the sun doesn't really penetrate that far. it's dramatic, in climbing, if you're going up and if you don't like it, you go down, can wrap off, you can take a descent route, you can do something else, but once you pull the first rope in a you're going down. You can't get back because you can't literally can't climb up a technical canyon. So you have to keep going. It's really quite committing and it's a remarkable, a very different environment. And again, it runs just like climbing does. It runs the range from non-technical, just hiking and scrambling to fairly technical to very technical where you have to use particular techniques to get out of particular spots. 

Kush: Absolutely, and maybe you spoke of Zion. Zion is a [00:09:00] magnificent. National Park. I've been fortunate to have done some climbing in Zion, and that was spectacular. I did not get a chance to visit some of the, let's say other parts of Zion, like, you know, the slot canyons, for example. So maybe, yeah, maybe this, that's a, this is such a good example.

maybe you could talk about what is it about that natural beauty of going into those, I suppose those deep caverns and subterranean depth sometimes because to a lot of us who play in the wide open world under the skies, that part about that sport can feel both, laborious and scary.

so please, take us into that world and why is it so mesmerizing?

Buzz: well, I think different sports for different folks, and so I'm not gonna try to convince anyone on what to do or not to do. People, [00:10:00] climbing is very, my mind primal, one of those primal sports like surfing, running and hiking are where you naturally do it. Many kids naturally do it, but then other people look at it and say, that's just stupid.

it looks really scary. You're high up off the ground, et cetera, et cetera. And so various arguments can be made foreign against different sports. And so I no interest to be honest in, promoting canyoneering at all. I just say that it's a different world down there. And if

Kush: different

sure, sure.

Buzz: you would need to get trained up because it is a specific skillset. 

Kush: A hundred percent. And I think I have, my curiosity has been peaked just enough in the last, couple of years with can, by Canyoning. I am encouraged to give it a shot and I feel many people listening here would likely feel the same way. You had mentioned that you still [00:11:00] train in the mornings.

That's why we picked a late evening hour to, to chat about. so you do so many different things, like you mentioned, what does training look like for you now?

Buzz: yeah. Let's see. I think when you get older, consistency becomes more and more important because you old saying, use it or lose it. It is a true saying, whether it's your mind or your body past a certain age, for example, if you drop down a level either through illness, injury, or some other reason, you will not regain it. you won't. it's, it ain't gonna happen. And I think that's largely true after 60, mostly true after, 65, and certainly true after 70. that's for basic cardiovascular fitness strength. So for example, [00:12:00] Kush, whatever muscle mass you have right now is all you're ever gonna have. it's truly use it or lose it. so as aging athletes getting back to your topic, you have to stay on it. I think when you're younger, you can take seasons off or you can get injured or you can have families or go to school and things like that and ramp it back up.

But after the age of certainly 65, you kinda have to stay on it. And so I like to be consistent and I'll just tell you my daily regimen if you'd like, 

Kush: Love to hear it.

Buzz: it, I. And unless I'm doing a big outing, I literally wake up, put on my shoes and go for a walk. It's about 30 minutes, and that loosens me up, stretches me out, and it's a nice way to greet the natural world instead of looking at email or something like that. And then I'll eat breakfast, first cup of coffee, so to speak after that. And then because I'm retired, I have the luxury of going for my [00:13:00] workout, so to speak, around nine, 10 o'clock when I'm woken up and got my bearings and things like that. And nowadays, it tends to be running hiking, but I'm a strong cyclist and I just paddled.

I kayaked 10 miles today on Dylan Reservoir. So it can be any number of things. And then if I'm feeling good, before dinner, like at five, maybe as late as six o'clock, I'll do sometimes a light strength and stretching routine. Nothing massive, but again, you gotta stay limber and you gotta keep the strength up. so it's, I'll do three things a day unless it's a big day, and then I'll just do one thing and then that main workout around nine or 10, that could, that varies as to what it might be. then tomorrow I'm just gonna do that. I'm gonna drive up to Breckenridge and do the 10 mile traverse, the 10 mile range.

And this is, eight summits all over 12,000 feet [00:14:00] high. I'm gonna get up on the ridge by myself and try to do a long Ridge Traverse, which will probably take 10 hours.

Kush: Wow.

Buzz: I get on that right away. Tomorrow.

Kush: Got it. Yeah. This is just another, weekday for you.

Buzz: Yeah, tomorrow will be a big day.

Kush: sure. And Buzz. You have performed with excellence over so many things and



Kush: I'm curious. Um. Has that also helped you, let's say, mitigate the demands on your body To some degree. because, okay, just to stick with climbing for a second, you use these muscles and you use them in like these tight constrictive positions over and after a while, like I've been doing this for 20 plus years now, I know that there's certain things that have now accumulated, these types of injuries, overuse is what they call it.

So do you think that the [00:15:00] diversity that you've added has helped you maybe manage your fitness and even your motivation?

Buzz: Yeah, I think so. But then again, that's personality type. Some people are very focused and I am really primarily an adventurer. I think I'm probably known as a runner, but I don't self identify that way at all. I'm an adventurer and ex and an explorer, so that's what moves me. Hutchinson, columnist for Outside magazine had a great quote when asked about the best workout, and he said, one you enjoy, because that's the one you're gonna keep doing. And so I thought, that's very apropos answer, isn't it? So what. And of course, Joseph Campbell, said the same thing. follow your bliss. And so you can look at it from a numbers perspective or, and analyze what's best thing to do. But [00:16:00] on a certain level it's emotional. A certain level it's personal. On a certain level it's desire because at this age, no one's just jumping out of bed, raring to go. we, that's a little bit in the past. And so you have to find something that's exciting you, that's interesting you, and turning you on makes you wanna go do it. so I do think that my diversity of activities has balanced myself physically, certainly, but it also does hold oneself back from hitting peaks in any one area. I think cross training, if I mayr to a little training theory

Kush: Yes.

Buzz: age, is. Helpful. particularly at a really early age. For example, the idea that you have to committed by age six or eight is stupid, and that it just isn't born out by the facts. Norway, a country of 5 million people, they basically ban keeping score until you're like at least 10 years old, and [00:17:00] they want you to explore, they want you to do different things, and they're very successful on the top end. but they start off being really playful and doing a lot of different things, and I think some cross training helps out at that time. But again, after you get past age of 60, you look at the top people and they don't do any cross training, interestingly enough. They just dial in the biomechanics of what they're

Kush: Wow. Yeah.

Buzz: it's a climber, a cyclist, or runner, like your top runners, your age group record holders, they the same bloody thing every day. they're. To me, fairly boring. But that works at this age because they get that biomechanics just dialed in and they get their body used to it so they can carry it into an age when they're becoming stiffer and slower.

Kush: I am fascinated by that answer, not what I would expect. I would expect [00:18:00] that people who have been really good at a certain sport they would want to start working on, let's say other things. One thing that, they keep hearing, in popular culture, or just not just culture, but from, let's say a scientist and advocates.

Is that for example, the experience, the, importance of adding strength training, right? That one already has all the skill for one's primary sport, so maybe do less of that sport or maybe do it a little bit differently, but add in components of strength training. And yeah, I wanna make sure I'm understanding what you're saying.

Are you saying we need to continue, or The top athletes, they continue working on their main sport and maybe even doubling down on it as they get older?

Buzz: That's my observation.

Kush: Wow.

Buzz: exactly training theory, that's just what I observe because we really lose flexibility. [00:19:00] We lose strength, we. kinds of things. And so after a certain age, if you will, to focus on one movement actually works better. 'cause then you can just carry it forward. Your body gets used to it. for example, if it's

Kush: I see.

Buzz: actually hard as you can be 45 years old and running just feels really hard. But there's people who are 70 years old have run a sub three hour marathon and they do that because that's all they do. They don't do anything else oddly enough. But I think there also makes ' em prone to injury. I, I personally don't want to do that 'cause it's not that interesting. You see what I mean? just for pure performance, I think, stick with one thing after age 60 or 65 if that's the thing you really want to do.

Kush: Okay. And maybe I'm also understanding that once maybe you get past a certain like [00:20:00] line, a certain hump, maybe you've understood your body so well that you know how to subconsciously avert overuse injuries by being able to 

Buzz: Yeah, you've got it dialed in. if you're a climber, there, there's all sorts of different moves, and there's a lot of torque on your shoulders, obviously, and some of your elbows and of course your hands and forearms. but putting for climbers,your fingers are super important, but if those hang in there, it's gonna be your shoulder.

And that's doing weird things

Kush: Yes.

Buzz: You look at the modern, sport climbing, not sport climbing, but comp climbing, and they're just doing bizarre. I mean, you look at that

Kush: Sure

Buzz: and you go, oh my God. you'd be in the hospital. Immediately if you tried some of those moves they're doing. they practice, they have coaches, they're indoors and they're working on those moves so their shoulders mostly can handle it. But for the trad climber, you're not gonna do anything that [00:21:00] dramatic, hopefully. so you dial in the motion, you know what you can and can't do. You warm up and then you try not to put yourself in position where, if you're crack climbing and you get a good foot jam going and your hands come out your foot, it's gotta release, otherwise it's gonna torque the heck out of it.

And so you learn things of that nature.

Kush: Buzz you yourself, you have, again, you do a variety of things. What does, let's say, an indoor training session for you look like? Like maybe strength training, maybe mobility. What is it that you, , rely on to keep you, going?

Buzz: Right. Thanks. I, I'm of course known as an adventurer. I go all over the place. I've been all over the world. I've run races in New Zealand, Australia, Europe, China, Canada, et cetera, et cetera. But in the wintertime, I'll go to the gym once or twice a week and people think, [00:22:00] oh, you go to the gym and yeah, I go to the gym and I'll actually start off on the treadmill. People think treadmills are just awful. The treadmill. And the key to those is get on and get off. treadmill should be a tempo workout. And so I do a warmup of at least 10 minutes. I get on it and I tap it out uphill only. instead of pace, I go for the uphill 30 minutes and I'm, 30 minutes is all you need to

Kush: Sure. I.

Buzz: And that, interestingly enough, the treadmill helps you work on your form. when you're outside. doing all sorts of different things, rocks, roots, up, down, left, right creeks. But when you're on a treadmill, you're just tapping it out and you can really improve your running economy and efficiency because it's going at an exact same speed and so you can make it as easy as possible.

So I think treadmills work real well in the winter. I don't go in the summer then I just do a basic strength workout. I think [00:23:00] if you're better at it, it's free weights. I tend to use the machines because they're easier. And then I focus on things that I need the most, which are glute bridges, which actually isn't a machine.

Kush: I use that on an do that with an exercise ball, hamstring curls and heel the back of the leg stuff, but plus arms core and things like that. And then I'll end it by, Very little swimming, but Oh wow.

Buzz: like to swim and swimming is so fluid, it makes you feel so good. It loosens up your whole body. I'm doing it for 15 minutes, to be honest. And when I started doing this last winter, which I think is really helpful and is the most boring thing possible is pool running. you get in the pool and you hold a couple floats in your hands. You just

Kush: Ah.

Buzz: in the water and you look like a moron.

this is really boring, but actually it's pretty good. you get, you really get loosened up and you try to [00:24:00] turn it up and make your legs move real fast and there's no impact. so I think it's actually good for older people to pool run. I don't mean to sit there and just putts around. you want to churn that water up.

Kush: Sure.

Buzz: I can only stand it for 10 or 12 minutes before, I just hate it. But then I think that's good. I feel loose afterwards. 

Kush: Beautiful. That is, such a varied and let's say, specific type of workout the way you have added or put together these exercises. Are you self coached or have you had somebody help design this program for you? 

Buzz: I've never had a coach, just coaches have become quite popular recently. Runners rarely had coaches unless they're professional or on a team. And now many runners and trail runners and road runners have coaches. I'm not one of them. So [00:25:00] the internet works pretty well,

Kush: Sure

Buzz: and then you just listen.

You, you feel it out, talk it up. I'm fine with what I'm doing.

Kush: I follow, the big wave surf for layered Hamilton. And, I've seen enough of his, media now on the workouts he does with weights and underwater training. And I sense at some point, when I have access to a pool and whatnot, I might start, taking advantage because the low impact nature of that workout does, seem appealing.

Buzz: Yeah. Yeah.

Kush: Before I forget, one thing I wanted to pick on is you talked about all the different things you do. the one thing that I did not expect is the swing dancing. And I love that because I do, yeah. I've dabbled in a few different kinds of social dances myself. do you find anything transfers over when it comes to, let's say, mindset or, or flow between the world of dancing

Buzz: the world of outdoor sports?

Yeah, thanks for bringing [00:26:00] that up. There's no such thing as a runner who dances except for me. it's, they're just so different. And runners tend to be real methodical and their range of motion is very limited, frankly. some of your top runners that probably in a certain sense about, of good athletes as a bowler, to be the, the top 10 in the world marathon.

You don't have to be strong. You don't have to be limber, you don't have to be coordinated. you have to be able to do thing really, really well. Which is cool. I mean, running is a very primal, basic, fantastic sport because it's the cheapest sport there is. And you can do it anywhere, anytime. But dancing is its own thing. it's just in a different category. 'cause there's two things happening and I tell this to people, two things you have to do is dance with your partner and move to the music.

Kush: the only two things you have to do. there's a lot less technique than you might think, but you [00:27:00] do sort of have to have a feel for it.

Buzz: Otherwise it doesn't really work. And I only do social dancing. ballet, jazz and so forth. I don't do any sort of performance in that. I used to actually. But social dancing is remarkable. there's another person and you're both are gonna move in sync to this external sound.

And music goes back as far as you can go in history. it's pre literature, music and dancing, precedes probably vocabulary. And so I think it's a perfectly wonderful thing to do. And I like swing dancing because it's the most athletic. You can get a pretty good workout swing dancing.

Kush: A hundred percent dancing goes far back. But then I also think dancing is primal also. I mean, you look at little babies, you know that you see little babies tapping when they hear a beat and they don't need to be told to do They seem to just do [00:28:00] that instinctively. and I feel that, as adults we need to tap into as many primal things, whether they're out in nature or otherwise, we can't.

And yeah, just changing gears a little bit, but we can't have you on the show and not talk about the FKT or the fastest known time concept that you helped found. And I know you have been asked about its origin yeah, a million times. But people may still not understand what that is. And why is it so important to the world of Mar Mountain Sports?



Buzz: the word first came to me and another person, by the way had used it. prior to me, although it was fairly obscure, but the word first came to me when Peter Bwin and I were going for the John Muir Trail, thought, okay, what's the fastest time? There's that word. and it was hard to find out.

you [00:29:00] really had to do a lot of research. I had made calls and, sent letters because it's hard to imagine a world of pre-internet, but the times in the John Muir Trail and many classic roots were pre-internet. That means they're gone. and so when you, we went to do it, we thought we knew what the fastest time was, you can't be sure. And so I just thought it was the fastest known time was, that's all it is. It's literally the fastest known time. And that's different from a record because you can interchange and that's fine. But a record has a more of an official meaning to it. Like some, a third party is there with a stopwatch, someone else beside yourself. And while when, we started talking about fastest known times, and Peter started a website, he started the first one. it was a [00:30:00] gentleman's agreement. You announced your intention in advance. You made a written record. You didn't do it by memory, and you let people know about it immediately after it was done some sort of documentation, like dates and so on and so forth. And then as technology grew, we required a GPX file. because at first. were rare, but then after a year or two, it's yeah, when Strava was started, for example, put it on Strava, send us the file, that's your verification. If you don't do that, then you didn't do it. You see what I mean? And so then with another person, Jeff Schueller, Peter and I started the fastest owned time.com website. And that's a total thing. Unfortunately, it only applies to running and hiking mostly. I wanted to expand it to everything, swimming, cycling, skiing, and so forth. But Jeff and Peter kinda ran outta gas [00:31:00] on that.

And so we sold it to Outside Inc. Outside media. I thought they were gonna take it to the next level, but they actually didn't, unfortunately. So it does remain the absolute source for hiking, running fastest times on the most. Cool roots in the world. one thing I wanna emphasize here is if you're traveling, you're going somewhere and wanna know what the coolest roots are, go to fastest known time.com and look it up because it's basically a bucket list of the coolest roots in the world, what it is.

There's, I forgot how many thousands on there, but they're all verified. I use Strava almost every day, but that is completely non verified. you can get away with anything you want on that mostly, and there's bazillion little segments on that. But fast known time.com, everything has been verified and so it's, I think it's a high quality [00:32:00] list. 

Kush: absolutely. when I go to that website, I see all these dots all over the world and people have posted, but I did not know that, those times have been verified. Like I, I thought this was self-reported. So who is verifying?

Buzz: but there are editors who literally looked at every single submission and verified that it is correct 

Kush: Okay, like how do they ensure that it's correct? what are they looking at?

Buzz: they sent in a g, the submit EE sent in that GPX file and

Kush: Oh, I see. Okay. Okay. So you have to

Buzz: we have, they're called regional editors. I think there's 15 of them, and they will look at it. they'll say, does this look right? if there's anything wrong, they'll just plunk it into,the map and make sure you started and finish at the correct place and didn't cut any corners and things

Kush: Sure.

Buzz: and so you can cheat probably, but it doesn't happen very often. And so [00:33:00] everything has been verified, a lot of work. Yeah.

Kush: Yeah. 

Buzz: any route is not accepted. You can't just, run around the mailbox. it has to be a route that other people would want to do. I,

Kush: got it. Got it. It sounds like it's a little bit like. Almost like Wikipedia in some ways that, you have people submitting information and maybe, some people moderating. I do like to believe that in the world of Martin Sports, most people are genuine and most people are reporting things that they've actually done.

Buzz: Because I feel that the motivations are usually more internal than not. But yes, sounds like somebody's verifying this. yeah, I hope the powers to be at outside maybe recognize that this concept could extend extent to other mountain sports, but maybe even beyond, to, to ocean sports And, sure. they should, outside is, they were very [00:34:00] good at acquisition and funding, and then they got to a certain point where they didn't have adequate revenue. And so the next round of funders said, we're pulling back. You need to start making money here. And so there was a round of layoffs and so a lot of things just got flatlined. most of their magazines, except for outside, are no longer in print. Trail Runner Magazine. It's hard to believe that

Kush: Sure.

Buzz: backpack or yoga journal, trail

Kush: Yeah.

Buzz: et cetera, et cetera. they were up to 32 titles at one point, they've just, hanging on. They're still around. but most of 'em are out of or not in print publications anymore. And a lot of 'em have lost their leadership. And so the voices that made it particular to those communities are gone. it's, journalism is super hard. I can't blame 'em a whole lot because, the internet made people think that everything is free and [00:35:00] nothing is free. nothing is

Kush: Yes. I,

Buzz: you're, they're, they got your data, they're selling your data, et cetera, et cetera, and you can, go on social media and just get. what are, I'm searching for an adjective that won't be offensive to people,

Kush: yeah.

Buzz: let's just say the content is not high quality on 

Kush: Yeah. Yeah. 

Buzz: but that, on the other hand, it's free and it's immediate.

And so if you have a magazine, how do you pay for it? So if you have, if you're a journalist and you want to have really good quality reporting that is truthful and insightful and summarizes the situation, you have to pay someone to do it that do it. So how are you gonna get paid back when there's, 1 million social media posts per

Kush: Yes,

Buzz: taking place in the world? it's a tough situation.

Kush: indeed. maybe at some point, maybe they will sell off their, their, non-performing assets. Somebody will buy this fastest known

Buzz: website and maybe really [00:36:00] help realize its full potential.

I think it's a great point. I would like to see that. I keep expecting to see that, but they haven't done it yet. I wanna, I'm just to go back a couple minutes. I mentioned the, a person who had used, fastest known time. His name was Bill Wright, and, pardon me, I failed to mention his name.

Kush: Got it. Absolutely. Thank you for, putting it. Yeah. Thank you for mentioning the name and ba you have held so many of those F kts over the years. Obviously, one thing that stands out as I look at your org is you have found just incredibly creative adventures and found a way to document them and talk about them and the concept of time.

I would agree and speed is important, but I'm also curious with how has your relationship with [00:37:00] speed and time changed in. The last couple of, yeah.

Buzz: I had a girlfriend, 10 years ago talking and we were going, oh man, this is old age is just tough, bloody work. it just not that much fun sometimes. Being retired by the way is very fun. So that actually works really well. she coming up with the, great suggestion of. She wouldn't ever look at the mirror and I wouldn't ever look at my watch and we'd all be totally happy. And so that's one of the ways my relationship has changed. You have to reset your expectations. there's no training that is possible will enable me to go faster. It's ridiculous concept.

I will get slower and slower until the day I die no matter what. And many people listen to this can say the same thing. And so one has to reset one's expectations [00:38:00] and do what is moving you. Do what is making you happy. And you could say that it's a organized retreat, which statistically would be true. Instead of it all out surrender, I quit. I can't do this anymore. It's an organized retreat. You're just pulling back, slowly and by. You're doing it by training. by the way, I told you my, I'm really quite consistent and I'm fairly assiduous. And that is to slow down more slowly.

Kush: Sure.

Buzz: and so you have to look for the gyms. It looks for, it moves you. And I think for me, and I would suggest for many people, it's not about the time and the distance and so forth, it's simply about manifesting who you are. I, this is my authentic self. I was born to move and so I'm going to move and I will keep track of the times, the distances and the elevation and heart rates and things like [00:39:00] that. actually, Strava does it for me. Otherwise I wouldn't keep track of it. But really it's the movement and however I'm moving is okay, whether it's on foot, running on the water. it's all okay. And, I think we, we find that place within ourselves. That's just who we are. And then it's just a matter of being who we are. 

Kush: Have you tapped into any strategies buzz for, let's say this mindset shift around acceptance? Like you are still out there doing the thing, even if you're not doing it with, let's say, the same,same records, same speed, yeah, your legacy has tied to having done things in the best way, how are you able to reconcile that and not let that affect your performance on a given day?

Buzz: I think that's a good question. it's a. good question. [00:40:00] It's sort of a tough answer. So I literally will have to think about that a little bit think it goes back to what I said a minute ago, which is just be yourself. for me at least, I had to take down to that fundamental level, because if I'm pursuing numerical goals, it just seems a little odd, because, the times are just gonna get slower no matter what. you're keeping track. You might do the same race,every five years, and it's whoa, that's just a lot slower and you don't feel that bad. and so it's really about being who you are. for me, it's born to move. I'm just like a kid, when I was, 4, 5, 6 years old used to run outside and play, just ran outside in the woods. And my mother had this police whistle. It was time for dinner. She blew three blasts on the police whistle, which meant I had to come home. I'm still like that. I just really [00:41:00] wanna go outside and play. And the format, isn't as important. And so I understand, I, I have a certain type of shoe socks and the gear, the nutrition, I've dialed in my kit and my methodology, but fundamentally, I think have to find that bliss within you, that joy within you, different for everyone and connect with it, connect with that primal joy of movement.

I.

Kush: I love that. And I was just thinking that I'm not sure if you've yet bent a memoir, but I can already see perhaps a name for that unless it's been taken, which could be, born to move and, yeah, maybe you're right. Maybe that is such a,integral, expression. With how you look at yourself and maybe even like how the world looks at yourself.

Really. It distills down all, I think all these adventures. Distill down to maybe that [00:42:00] one key phrase and maybe just like a fun question. you seem to pick up new things. What might be something exciting buzz you've picked up in the last several years?

Buzz: Oh, that happens to be an easy question, but it's a little hot. I feel a little sheepish,to, say this, but I, uh, age 70 I learned how to e foil.

Kush: Nice. I.

Buzz: yeah. And, can't say this is a safe sport and, you'll have to google it. E dash

Kush: hang on. I'm familiar with ke with e foiling and, but we should explain that to the,

Buzz: Everyone else

yeah, because of it.

Kush: I also surf, I've been surfing for a while, surfing badly for a while, but what, but,

yeah, foiling is not super stable. it's not, but No, but hang on. Why did you say you feel sheepish about it? It sounds great.

Buzz: it's [00:43:00] obviously not super safe. and so you say, why are you doing that? if someone were to question me, I would have trouble pairing their query. like you just asserted, you were totally correct. I'd like learning new things. I just like to do new things. the, I was looking at this foil and I said, wow, that looks amazing.

But then you gotta gear up for it. you gotta learn how to do it. You have to get the stuff, you know it, it takes you a while before you're standing up. 'cause as this wing is a quarter inch thick and the board's only 60 inches long. And so you're just, you're, and it's got a little electric motor in it, a lithium battery, little propeller, three inch propellers turning around.

And so there you are and you're on your knees and you're going plowing through the water and there has a hand controller. You press a couple buttons to get the speed up. Okay. Alright, let's see. Now we can stand up. it, it takes you a while just to stand up, but you're still [00:44:00] on the board, right?

You're still plowing through the water with a lot of friction, leaving a little wake. And then when you get up on foil, you press the button, you bump up the speed, and it comes up on that wing and suddenly you're, you don't hear anything. There's no wake. 'cause this quarter inch wing is cutting through the water with very little resistance. And people say, is it stable? No, it's not stable at all. And there's a little bit of a learning curve to it. And if you go in, you're going in and you can feel it, you're going flying.

Kush: Yeah. Yeah. And it's stable as long as you're moving, if you stop moving, if you stop moving and you don't watch off where the foil is, it can be, yeah, it can be, hazardous. I'll tell you personally, I tried Wink foiling, for the first time a couple of years ago, down in South America.

I haven't been able to get back to it, but I am already setting up this virtual [00:45:00] piggy bank pause. I can put away quarters, so maybe in 10 years I can buy an e foil because I feel like e foil is great, because, yeah. One can, it's, I feel in some ways, like the e-bike, 10 years ago, I would've scoffed at getting an e-bike, but I can see my future self in five years would not worry about my ego getting on a e-bike.

Buzz: right. are fabulous. I just wanna clarify that I do a lot of recreational riding and I'll still even do an occasional race. always self-propelled. I don't think e-bikes, that's what they're for to me. E-bikes are the world's best commuter vehicle and people are driving their bloody cars all over and we say, yeah, cars are polluting cars with this cars that well get out of the car.

And the E-bikes the best way to do it because you don't work up a sweat. If you go into work, you go in your street clothes. I used to go bike 10 miles to work at Ultimate Direction, 10 miles back. And when I got the e-bike, it was much easier. And I did [00:46:00] it more often because you don't get sweaty and going on your street clothes. So I'm a big e-bike proponent. They're here to stay. 

Kush: I love that buzz because I have been, yeah, I've also been bike commuting for the last 20 years, living in San Francisco, and there are many people, you know who, yeah, I think the fear, the learning curve feels too much to get on a regular bike on the streets. And I used to maybe also be a bit of an anti e-bike and I'm like, man, that is so stupid.

Anything that gets you out of a big, box of metal and onto a bicycle, the benefits. yeah, no, the benefits, so clearly overwhelm everything else and yeah, exactly right. I think more people need to be on bicycles, whatever kind that might be. I think healthier for them, healthier for all of us.

Just one thing I [00:47:00] wanna ask about your e foiling and what is it like to feel that, to put yourself in the seat of a beginner again, right? You're picking up this new sport and it carries like this, these elements of like thrill, the element of risk and investment. And here you are, you're 70, you're picking up something new.

Buzz: That's a good question. Thank you for that question. And I had a particular attitude that I remember quite well, which is, don't worry, no goals. I think that's what really helped me. I had to get out there and say. Don't worry about it, go through the process. enjoy being out on the water and do not set up a goal for yourself, any timeline. 'cause I don't think that would've been appropriate. I don't think that would've really helped me that much. [00:48:00] And so it,it took a little while. It was like, I don't know, six. for example, once I learned to, just to get up off my knees and stand up and ride the board, then I said, okay, I'm just gonna do this.

I'm just gonna do this for 30 minutes and just feel comfortable. You know what I mean? Just do this and feel comfortable. And then it's okay, let's bump it up and try to get up on the wing just to see what it feels like. You know what I mean? Just be where you are now. Relax, enjoy it.

Don't sell set goals. And that's what helped me. And now I'm confident, I'm no layered Hamilton, I'm not, no, 20 footers for me.

Kush: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like a lot of people listening to this, podcast will be intrigued by the idea. any tips on what might be a good place or a good 

Buzz: A good process to get started with?

foiling. for e foiling, which is different, and there's different types of foiling, obviously. There's the pump foil, which

Kush: Yeah.

Buzz: [00:49:00] super hard work, and

Kush: is

yeah,

Buzz: I'm not doing it. And then of course, like Laird and those guys can do this tow in the, the jet skis gonna tow 'em.

And then once you get up on foil, because they're super efficient, you can get on rollers, you can surf rollers, it doesn't have to be that steep of a break. so there's that. But then the coolest thing actually, in my opinion, is the wing foil.

Kush: yeah,

Buzz: where you're literally holding a wing with your two hands, and it's not, on a mast.

It's not a fixed mast, you're literally holding a wing. Oh. and there's of course kite foiling too, which is in, 

Kush: totally.

Buzz: the

Kush: But what does, what is the sport that you would recommend, which of these versions for somebody who's curious about I.

Buzz: was in, I was into wing foiling, that's what I wanted to do. I went down to, Ventana, Baja, Mexico, that's where like the people were training for the Olympics down there. It's got this, it's just always windy and it's in the bays. There's not big [00:50:00] surf and said, wow, this is a long learning curve and I don't really like wind. I don't really

Kush: Yeah.

Buzz: live in a place where it's that windy. It was just unpleasant. Some like it and I realized, I don't know. I'm using, skip the wind, drop the sail and get a little lithium battery and go out where it's not bloody windy all the time. So that's what I did. And it's not the coolest thing for sure.

I think the wing foil iss the coolest thing to do, but I don't want to live in a place that's that windy.

Kush: And yeah, the beauty of an E foil is, yeah, you don't need. Wind. You don't even need to be in a body of salt water. You can be on a lake, right? You can be in a lake. So yeah, it's a great sport.

Buzz: mainly use mine, I, been out the Pacific and I've been on Lake Powell and reservoirs in Colorado, but my, by far the best for me is Lake Michigan. the Great

Kush: Ah,

Buzz: are really [00:51:00] good. no jellyfish, ooh, very little seaweed. really good culture. Reasonably good weather only in the summer. And, the waves definitely pick up at Lake Michigan. Don't doubt that. They do not. So I think, the Great Lakes are fabulous.

Kush: And buzz, I believe you trace your origins to the state of Michigan. So maybe this allows you to, discover and,feel this bond for your, I don't know, your home state in a whole new way.

Buzz: think that there is a little bit of that, where one grows up, there's an affinity you take to it for the rest of your life probably. And I spent, as soon as I from college, skid marks in the driveway, and I moved to Boulder, Colorado, and Colorado was my home for a long time. And I, now I own a house in Moab also the desert has a lot of territory out there. And I like the climate in the winter and spring only, then if I go back to Michigan, it still feels [00:52:00] really good to me. And,you have to realize. you don't have to, pardon me, but I should say a lot of people do not realize they're called the Great Lakes for a reason. you're looking at, I think it's something like 40% of the surface fresh water in the world or in the Great Lakes. wow. lake Michigan is 900 feet deep. You can surf. There's a surf shop

Kush: yes.

Buzz: so pretty good.

Kush: I have a lot of,

Buzz: You all like it. 

Kush: don't.

no, I have a lot of love for Michigan. When I first came to the States, I ended up spending, a fair bit of time in Michigan. Thanks to a love interest back then. And yeah, I have, yeah, just a lot of beautiful culture, lots of great outdoors, particularly in the summer and fall. yeah.

putting a pin on that.

Buzz: winter's different. 

Kush: buzz. You have [00:53:00] mentored people through f kts, through conversation. And what do you see as your role now to, to younger athletes, to people asking you for advice? What is this? Yeah, what is what is this thing that you keep coming back to?

Buzz: it's an interesting, again, an interesting question and I'm not sure if I really do mentor people. I think, to be honest, I just do what I do and I try to be a nice guy. I try to live lightly on the earth. I have a very strong environmental ethic, I believe progressive politics. And, I think I've taken a hard edge off over the decades, 'cause I used to be a little more driven, if you will. But I've don't think I've never been a coach. I'm not sure if I've deliberately mentored anybody. [00:54:00] I think I try to live a really honest, forthright I try to be authentic and I think maybe people look at that and say. That's pretty nice. That's good. I'd like to do things like that also. You see what I mean?

And it, and say, we start off by saying, Kush, I haven't died yet. I think, people are going into middle age go, Hey, he hasn't died yet. So I think people are aging. Athletes are saying, gosh, look at that guy. He's still having fun. I guess hopefully I'll still have fun another 20 years also, but I don't really, other people's lives just aren't my business.

I just don't, I just say with all respect, it's just not what I'm, I, it, I think I work hard enough and most of us do work hard enough to try to be a good person ourselves. it just, your own ego is plenty [00:55:00] to work with. You don't need anybody else's. I'm just not qualified for the position of telling anyone what to do or how they should do it.

It's just, just unqualified to do that and so I can try to be a nice guy, try to be very authentic and try to be compassionate and try to live lightly on the earth and hopefully, we can make friends and support each other as we do that. 

Kush: That's a great answer and yes, no, I like how you know straight up you are about your role and I still believe though, that there is much that we can learn from what you're doing today. And yeah, just a couple of questions on that theme. one question I do like to ask everybody here is, what does being ageless mean to you?

Buzz: Ageless,

Kush: Yes,

Buzz: podcast.

Kush: [00:56:00] correct.

Buzz: it could have two meanings Kush. One is the relative in the absolute meaning. So the relative meaning is that it doesn't have any meaning. there's no such thing as ageless. Everything, ages, rocks, age, the universe, ages. But, the absolute meaning in the infinite sense is ageless means we are here right now and whatever we're doing now as no before or after see.

Kush: Sure.

Buzz: if you're in the moment, nothing else really matters. So age is a non-sequitur. So I guess there's the relative and the absolute meanings of the term.

Kush: I. I like that. but your answer was both light, like how you come across. But I think it was also profound if you think about it. I, that's what I would like to think about, which is, we are here now and that is what Yeah, that is what [00:57:00] is fundamental and everything else is just us, coming up with stories. A couple of questions here on this broad theme.

Is there something or anything you have let go of recently that used to be quite important to you? 

Buzz: probably, but I can't think of it right now.

Kush: Okay.

Buzz: I think,

Kush: It doesn't have to be heavy.

Buzz: some of the things I let go of and pertinent to the, our topic levels of fitness. there's things I can't do now. and I think those are disappointing, at least to me. I'm still able to run every sport I've ever done.

I can still do. That's good. So I haven't had any massive letting go there, is unfortunate that You know, I just slowed down dramatically, I would say. [00:58:00] I think that's a letting go. Yeah. That's, pardon me.

Kush: about it. that's the best I got.

sure. That's fair. And perhaps conversely, I. What might be something you are more clear about today than before?

Buzz: one, one thing about this age the commitment level oddly can go up. There's this real irony to it, Kush, that provokes, my answer on this, which I've developed over the past couple years, which is, what are you gonna do? there's no future. You see what I mean? you go through most of your life thinking, wow, Go to college. Okay, I can get a job. Oh, there, there's this future. You're planning for the future and your recreational activities, your goals, you, if you wanna do this big project,this mission, this five 12 climb, whatever it happens to be for you, surf this particular wave in a [00:59:00] particular location. hopefully you're gonna do it, at a certain age you're not gonna do it unless you do it now. it's all of a sudden the horizon line is visible. It's not in the distant futures. For example, where are we here? 20, 25? Yeah. It was two and a half years ago. I was really having time, breathing was hard.

My fitness was rolled down. I went to a lot of, a lot of tests. I think they were just wrong I was pressing it pretty hard. I think the tests were just coming up completely wrong. And so I finally went into the emergency room and. hours later, a cardiologist walked into the room and said, you're not leaving the hospital. I'm doing an emergency, coronary angioplasty with stent tomorrow morning. And so they went in through my wrist, snaked this little tube up and cleared out my artery and put in a stent. I had a 95% blockage in my left [01:00:00] interior descending artery. The widow maker,

Kush: Whoa.

Buzz: You got 30 seconds to live. And I

Kush: Wow.

Buzz: for, I lived with that for two months while they were trying to figure it out, because I was a strong athlete, I could, jog up the stairs to the examining road. They said, get the heck outta here. You're now, you don't have a problem. And so I actually did have a problem and they fixed it through modern medicine. I'm getting to the point here, Kush, you can say, wow, I just barely survive that. I better take it easy. I better be safe. I better be careful. I better be cautious because, I could die. I could get hurt. Or you'd say, it. this is it. there isn't gonna be a next time. There is no tomorrow for someone like me. am, I'm gonna die at some point. So if there's something you wanna do, now is the time to do it. And so that is the answer to your question. you hit this [01:01:00] fulcrum point you could say, I better take it easy. You better be safe. Or you can say, there ain't no tomorrow. It's time to throw down.

It is time to get with the program because I'm gonna die anyway. 

Kush: I, yeah, it sounds like it's one of, it's one of those,come to Jesus moments where, it's not quite, you have six months to live, go check off your bucket list. But it is this, just this strong knock, which is, yeah. Anything that's gotta get done, one has to keep moving.

No,I hope, what can I say? I hope that if, that knock, whenever the knock comes from me, if I get a knock and it's not like somebody breaking the door down. I hope that's the way I respond as well as you have, I. Maybe. Yeah. 

Buzz: your questions are wonderful. They're very thought provoking, so thank you. Thank you for doing this, and because of my big day tomorrow, we

Kush: Yes,

Buzz: to think about wrapping it up fairly soon.

Kush: absolutely. Absolutely. 

Buzz: Thank you. 

Kush: Absolutely. just a couple more [01:02:00] things. one thing I probably should ask you, and I know it sounds like a, it sounds like a basic question, but knowing you, I, I feel I'll get a, a tough response, which is, if you were to perhaps go back 20 years, what is maybe one thing that you would tell your younger self to either do differently or stop doing or double down on?

Buzz: Yeah, that's another fascinating question. I think it's a really good one, and maybe I'm just, too much of a dullard to have a good answer for it. I'm not sure. I think, going back to two questions ago, what do I say to other people why this question is the same thing, would I say to myself, a younger version of myself there's, there is this aspect of you gotta walk through it, you have to live through it. and an old saying is, youth is wasted on the young. And there, there's people nowadays in the, [01:03:00] in various sports, I can think of individuals in particular that are, they're in their thirties and when you're in your thirties, you think you got the world by the tail and you probably don't. But what do you, what am I gonna say to him? There's nothing to say, you, the only thing I'd like to say is record yourself now and play it back 20 years from now. You're gonna go, whoa. And so what would I say to myself in the same situation? I don't know what would be effective. I'd go out there and charge and maybe not take real good care of myself, not do the, the best nutrition and hydration plan.

It took me forever to learn to just drink water and, eat food and do things like that. I guess that's what I would say. It's just these real basic things of, inspiration is terrific, but while you're at it, take care of the basics. Drink water, eat [01:04:00] food. learn the electro right balance.

You can be more effective. You can have more fun if you are taking better care of yourself.

Kush: Maybe one, fun thing they could, all of us, including me, could do right away is record ourselves today. I. Saying, saying that, and then come back and, email that to us maybe to, to come to us 20 years from now. Just you host this fastest known time podcast actually you have moved on, you have moved on.

You now host a new podcast, the Buzz. 

Buzz: buzz, literally, there's probably a few of them, but you see a picture of me, it's about running and it's by ultra sign up, so you can find it pretty easily.

Kush: So you host the Buzz podcast and I have listened to it and it's, uh, genuinely great show. it's sharp and it's also [01:05:00] intermittent fun.

Buzz: Thank

Kush: And yeah. And I feel like people who listen to my podcast would also enjoy listening to yours. Maybe if folks wanted to check it out, any particular episode that you would recommend that they go to?

Buzz: Not really. it only releases every other Tuesday, once every two weeks. So you could look at the catalog by going onto, whatever you use, Spotify or Apple. It's on all those. So I, I guess I, not really, now I, nope, I

Kush: so. I. 

people can just pick, an episode or maybe let the app recommend an episode to them. I think it's a great show. It's been a pleasure having you on the show today. I know you have to be ready for your big day up in the mountains tomorrow. Good luck for that and good luck for your travels.

Hope we can have you back again for [01:06:00] some buzz wisdom.

Buzz: Well, your questions were very serious and thoughtful, so thank you. Thank you for what you do. I really appreciate what you're doing and maybe we'll meet in person sometime.

​