What’s More Dangerous: Free Solo Climbing or Sailing Alone Around the World — and Why the Risk Isn’t the Point

Ageless Athlete Recording - Jerome Rand
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Speaker: [00:00:00] Jerome, I always start with this question, which is, where are you right now and what did you have for breakfast? 

Speaker 2: I am in northern Michigan and we are covered with about two and a half feet of fresh white snow. We've been in a blizzard for the last few days, actually. I have only had coffee so far for breakfast, but, uh, soon enough I'm gonna go make some eggs.

I think scrambled eggs is on the menu. Beautiful. 

Speaker: I have expected to be on the screen with you and seeing your background shake because I thought you might be in your boat instead. You happen to be, uh, happen to be on land, it seems , this time when you are not sailing and uh, taking a break.

Speaker 2: this year going forward, I won't be back on the boat until February and then I'll be able to do some [00:01:00] short trips. But fortunately this year my client list for coaching is pretty extensive. And so I'm, you know, traveling kind of all over from the west coast to the east coast, hopping on different boats and, uh, helping people gain the confidence that they need to, uh, have their own adventures.

And so that sometimes cuts into what I can go and do. But I am hopeful, that by the fall of 2026, I might be able to head out on kind of a longer voyage, something where it's like four or five months out at sea sounds, 



Speaker: A winter away is gonna get your, uh, your stoke back up and get you ready to be out in the ocean again.

And Jerome, it's obvious you are not just a sailor. You do a variety of things. How would you best describe yourself these days? 



Speaker 2: you know, I, that's a [00:02:00] good question. I think in some respects, I am at a very interesting point in any adventurer's life where they start to see that they're gonna have to hang up their adventure hat, but you still wanna be able to get out there.

You've got this wealth of experience that you've gained over the decades, and now I've found that I'm. Really, really enjoying passing that knowledge on to the next generation of adventurers. And so I kind of have, have found this little, this little niche where I still get to do my own stuff every once in a while, but more than anything I'm hopping on and helping people out as a career and that's actually bringing quite a bit of fulfillment, more than I would've thought because, for a long time the idea of like, oh, I gotta sell the boat and I gotta quit doing the solo sailing was a pretty scary idea for me.

Speaker: I [00:03:00] am guessing that a day spent at sea likely looks quite different than a day on land. And you are on land right now and. I'm just wondering what's the biggest contrast? 

Speaker 2: Well, I think really when you're out at sea, you are 100% in the moment of what is going on. especially when you're offshore.

So picture, you know, you're a few hundred miles out into the ocean. It's only you in your boat. You've got this endless horizon around you. The ocean waves in the sky and the clouds is basically your backdrop and you are, Not only at Mother Nature's whim, she's pushing you around physically with the waves.

she's also providing you with the wind to be able to keep moving towards whatever goal you're going for. but it's the fact that you have to stay a hundred percent present in that moment [00:04:00] without any real distractions because, you know, you don't have internet, you don't have all the technology.

You've just got these very basic elements that you're working with. And I think that really is the big contrast. 'cause when we're on land and we're surrounded by all this stuff and all this information coming at us, it's definitely what I call more low level input when you're out there.

But it really, I think it allows you to just pay attention to this moment. At this time of what's going on. And I find that that's, that, that feels pretty good as far as a mental state to be in. It's something I chase a lot when I get out there. 

Speaker: Wow, that's fascinating. And honestly, it wasn't quite that answer expected about how being at sea, of course, you are having to constantly tackle so many challenges in this three dimensional environment.

But what [00:05:00] I'm learning from you is that it can in some ways be meditative because Yeah, because it just, it forces you to be so alive and present. And you just said that how you are trying to chase that perhaps. Being on land. So, so how is that going? How is being able to find that, that focus and that, uh, I, I guess that elevated state on land?

Speaker 2: It's tough. It's really tough. I mean, I, I am constantly trying to bring the lessons I learn out at sea back to my life on land, and, and typically for the first few weeks after I make landfall, it's pretty easy. Like I'm, I kind of, I'm in that mental zone, but slowly but surely these, these little things keep distracting you on land and they come at you and then the next thing you know, you're, you're scrolling on your phone and you're, you know, you're off in some other world while, [00:06:00] you know you're sitting there.

I mean, I had to take like a two hour bus trip. Earlier this year. And you know, at first I whipped out my phone and I started scrolling, and then I just was like, wait, wait, wait. Don't miss this. Because I was going down Cape Cod and it was this beautiful scene outside of that window and I just shut the phone down and I just looked out at Mother Nature and, and I had a much more enjoyable experience.

I wasn't just trying to, pass the time so I can get to my destination. I was like, this is, even though it's just a bus trip, I'm still gonna pay attention to the world around me and try and get something from that. And, as long as you try and keep that in your head that's, that should be kind of the goal, then I think it's a little easier to fight off the temptation to just kinda waste time 'cause that time is our, our most valuable asset.

I've heard you say that on your podcast.

Speaker: That is beautiful because for sure when one is [00:07:00] surrounded by, by psychedelic beauty, that one can find out in the ocean or in the mountains for sure. We can easily be captivated by that, but one can also find wonder in the ordinary and yes, yep. Looking out the window of your bus ride or your car ride or, or just your window on land can just be as amazing if one gives oneself that opportunity, which I agree that even for me, having said that, it can sometimes be, you know, big words because I can also not pay attention to what's the here.

Now I want to ask you about some of your beginnings into sailing, and one thing that I read surprised me, and yes, it might sound like a naive question, but. apparently you through hiked the [00:08:00] Appalachian Trail. 

Speaker 3: Yep. 

Speaker: and that somehow led you towards solo ocean sailing. I mean, wow. I, in my mind they seem world apart.

So help us understand that journey. 

Speaker 2: I found that there are a lot of comparisons that, that kind of came together, between hiking the Appalachian Trail and also solo sailing. And, uh, the reason being that on the Appalachian Trail, when you get about, I don't know, halfway, the vast majority of people that started the trail have already quit whether they had injuries or they just didn't like it.

And so I ended up spending, nearly 60, 70 days where I was. Primarily hiking by myself and camping by myself. And, you know, you had this sort of solitary existence out there. Now the other big comparison [00:09:00] was that out there you are having to endure pretty miserable conditions. A lot of the time there's the ratio of suffering to joy is about 90% to about 10%.

You know, you, you, you suffer your way up to the peak of the mountain, and then you take about five minutes up there and look around, and then you suffer all the way down. And in ocean sailing, it can be very, very similar. So if you're, obviously, if you're out there by yourself, you're having this isolation sort of situation, very solid.

You're in a solitude state. And then you're also, because mother nature is physically just pushing you around and when the weather is not great. You know, let's say a, a storm system rolls in, you know, you're be calmed before it. The weather riles up, the winds build and the seas get very big. And then things get very uncomfortable.

And for days this can [00:10:00] go on and then the winds quit, but the waves are there and you're just wallowing around in the sea. And then, the storm passes and the the nice gentle breeze fills in and you get one or two days of really great sailing. And so you've gone through this whole awful experience and it's uncomfortable and it's wet and it's scary, and then all of a sudden you get one or two days where it's perfect.

And I don't know in my mind, even if the ratio is heavily tilted over towards suffering, that just amplifies the joy that I get to feel when I break free from that. And I finally find that little spot. But I mean to answer, and I'm going off into the weeds. I know, but to answer your question specifically, it was really that idea of you're alone, you've got this goal, you're trying to hike to this end of this trail.

You're having to do things that you're not, it's not all fun. It's mostly suffering [00:11:00] and then you're doing it alone. But it's this very goal-driven existence. That's the exact same thing that I find when I'm out solo sailing. Because when I leave, I have a destination in mind and I just have to get there and I have to go through whatever mother nature throws at me.

And that, those two, I think, lend themselves perfectly, to sorta, you know, 'cause I, I don't think I would've ever attempted going around the world on my big voyage had I not hiked the Appalachian Trail.



Speaker: I would've never, uh, thought about, this, stream of consciousness that connects adventures on land with adventures and, and see. But I can, I can completely see that, and I, I understand and can relate to what you talked about, earning one's rewards. And yes, one can work really, really hard for like that fleeting, [00:12:00] but really deep point of fulfillment.

But then the search and the yearning begins all over again, and then you kind of seek out your next project dur. This might be a little institution of me to ask you this, but. You seem like, a sociable, friendly kind of person. What's the, what's the appeal of these solo adventures? 

Speaker 2: I, I get that question quite often.

'cause my life prior to the Appalachian Trail and solo sailing was running and managing like water sports centers, sailing schools and working in these resorts where, I mean, I'm constantly surrounded by people who are doing like awards things, cocktail parties where I, you know, I had to be very gregarious and out there and in front of everybody, you know, doing presentations and things.

And so, I don't know, I, I, I kind of grew up doing that, if you will. And [00:13:00] then. At the same time, if I think about it, even during those times, you know, I'd have two, three weeks of working straight and it's just surrounded and it's chaos and it's great and there's people everywhere. But then when I had one day off, I almost always took off on my own.

And I would go out, like for instance, when I was in the Caribbean for all those years, I would grab my boat and I would take off, and find some little isolated beach somewhere and have a little bonfire and just the whole night. And it would just be me. So I think deep down, even though I didn't know it, there was always this sort of yearning for these little solo sort of, excursions, if you will.

But, uh, I think especially on the Appalachian Trail, that allowed me to realize that. Not only was I comfortable doing a solo adventure, but I was actually kind of programmed, or I was good at it. Like it was something that [00:14:00] a lot of people that I talked to are like, I would never want to do that.

I feel, you know, I'm in my head the whole time. They come up with all these reasons why they wouldn't wanna do it. And I just see all the benefits of the solo, adventure and also knowing that you're only relying on yourself. And I think in some ways it really just brings out the best in you because, you know, especially in the sailing, because if you are not ready to give it a hundred percent, the consequence can be that you lose your boat and then you disappear in the sea as well.

And so you really have to give it everything you have, uh, not only to reach your goal, but just to survive the adventure. And I've always felt like. When I'm out at sea, I am absolutely 100% giving everything I've got. And to go back to what we were talking about earlier, that's one thing that I desperately try to bring back to land, but so far I've never been [00:15:00] successful that there's too many lazy days or like I'll do that later out at sea.

You just can't get away with that. You have to do it then and there. 

Speaker: Jim, I feel like there are some lessons for the rest of us in learning self-sufficiency. And I am guessing that you might have taken some training steps, some confidence skill, building steps before you went on your mega voyage to circumnavigate the globe.

So I. any advice you might have for the rest of us on how we might train ourselves to be a little bit self-sufficient and learn and step up for challenges on our own? 

Speaker 2: a good question. I, you know, I used to tell people that, that were thinking about wanting to get into solo sailing.

My advice to [00:16:00] them was always like, go and do like a weekend solo camping trip because again, like you're saying, you have to be self-sufficient. Once you get out in the woods, you know you're not gonna pick berries and survive. So you've gotta a provision, you've gotta kind of plan things out, know what you're going for.

but once you get out there, you're going to be isolated. It's gonna be just you and you're gonna have to take care of and do everything that, that it takes to be able to, you know, survive the couple of days before you come back to civilization. And it gives people a little bit of a taste. and also, again, I, I always have to go back to mother Nature because as, as good as a forecast might be, it's very changeable.

And if you are, you, you have to be able to give yourself over to that. And instead of just buckle down and hide from, the rain or the wind or the thunderstorm, you actually have to [00:17:00] just be like, well, this is it. This is the experience. I'm now completely soaking wet and I'm gonna be this way for the next 24 hours.

When you give yourself over to it, you might find that you are very capable of finding like, okay, well this isn't so bad actually. And those are the type of skills that I think you really need for, especially the extended voyages, because if you can deal with that discomfort and that sort of suffering, that's what it takes to be able to reach these lofty goals of like trying to sail around the world or, you know, try and hike a giant mountain range or, or do a long hike.

You really do have to be able to look at the positives, endure the negatives, knowing that, you know, you are gonna reach that goal. And I think if you have that mindset where you're like, I'm not gonna just fight against it, I'm just gonna give myself over to it and see what that [00:18:00] experience is like, I think that's one of the most valuable traits.

and if you can. Take it to one more level and find pleasure and enjoyment in that suffering. then you've got like the keys to the kingdom at that point. But that's not easy to do 

Speaker: along with camping supplies, your backpacking gear, your food layers, all of that. Maybe bear spray. Are people allowed to carry their cell phones and use them if they have service?

Speaker 2: Uh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know that, it's interesting you say that because that's one of the big differences. 'cause I hiked the trail in 2012 and at that point, social media was just starting, cell phones were still very spotty. I didn't even have an iPhone, I think at that point. And. You know, it was one of those things where the only time that would work was if you got [00:19:00] close to a road, and most times it, it, you know, it didn't.

Now you, I believe, have cell service almost the entire time. And I think it's allowed for some good things where people are, are able to keep others informed on a daily basis of how their adventure is going. They can share the adventure much more readily and in real time. Uh, but at the same time, I also believe it's, it, it's a huge distraction and it takes away from the adventure that you are on.

I. I think about my trip going around the world, and I was pretty much completely isolated. I could text people and I was only texting, you know, basically like eight in the morning Michigan time to let my family know, you know, I'm still alive. we're still going. I, but outside of that, I was completely cut off and therefore 100% immersed in that adventure.[00:20:00] 

There was just that sliver of time where I was just, okay, I'm focusing on updating these people and that's it. And if I think about, you know, having starlink and spending an hour or two. uploading videos and this and that, you know, maybe my name would be far more recognizable, but I would've missed out on a larger portion of that adventure.

and I think that would've been a pretty bad thing. You know, I, I like knowing that I was there for that entire trip. 

Speaker: I have to agree. I just feel like adventuring can be so different these days. I know that when I first started rock climbing in the early two thousands, particularly when I would go on bigger alpine trips, or even actually even just to Yosemite, one had to go to very specific spots to get cell service.

And if I was up on the wall, there wasn't service. And nowadays, [00:21:00] if I go climbing, I have my phone on me the whole time, and I can almost be. If I wanted to, I could be checking social media and updates, you know, while I'm, I'm blaming somebody and I don't reflect on this often enough, but it is, because I, I guess in some ways I can't even remember those days before we all had these phones all the time.

I can sense your room and I, I, I will agree also in spirit that adventure feels truer or used to be truer when one truly was in that immersive situation when one could not just pick up the phone and just look up a YouTube video on doing something or call somebody up.

And why is that even important these days? Like, why? Does one need to put oneself in that situation? [00:22:00] And what have you learned about yourself and what has that given you? 

Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean it's, it's a whole interesting, like bag there of what are the benefits of the technology change and, you know, are they benefits or are they things that, that, pull a little bit of the adventure back.

'cause I mean, you know, you think about it in the, 'cause it's such a, a new thing, you know, it's only in the last two decades that we've even had this ability. And prior to that, if you went out and crossed an ocean on a sailboat. you were pretty much like, you'd tell people, I will call you when I get over to France or whatever.

It's gonna be probably a month or two, and you could back in the day radio people and do all this stuff with, uh, SSB and stuff. But it's, it was, it wasn't as convenient as picking up a [00:23:00] phone and, and, hopping on the internet. And I don't know. I mean, back then, the big adventures, you think about it, Shackleton, sir Edmond, Hillary, all these great sailors that did all these huge trips the whole time they're out there, nobody knows what's going on.

And then typically in the past, what they would do is you would get back to land and then you'd do presentations to tell people and share. You'd write a book about it. and that was the extent of it. And then you'd go out and I, I think. I think the benefit of those days, or at least doing it, that in that similar fashion is that again, you, you're a hundred percent immersed in that adventure.

There's no thinking like, oh, I really should get, you know this on camera and I need to upload this. And you don't have that secondary job to do. Your only job is to survive the adventure, reach your goal, and then get back. And I, you know, I can also [00:24:00] say though, that there's a huge safety proponent to having this technology.

compared to, especially for sailors, I would say more than nanny, you know, the ability to, in the middle of an ocean. Hop on the internet and tell somebody that something's going wrong and they need help and they need assistance, or they just need, they need to figure out how to stop this problem from happening.

You know, that was something we didn't have back in the day. And to be able to do that now, I think for some situations can mean that, you know, the difference between survival and, and the boat sinking. So I, you know, I mean, when, when you're on a, a big climb like that, back before cell service was everywhere.

I mean, if things were going wrong, like you say like on, in Yosemite or something, you're halfway up the wall. It's only you. And, and that's how you, you have to come up with the solutions and overcome whatever's going [00:25:00] on. is that now one of those things where if you got really stuck, you could basically.

I don't know, order up a helicopter to come grab you. Is that like a realistic thing? I don't know. 

Speaker: I think that yes, one can do that in Yosemite. Now one cannot do that in the Yosemite backcountry, right? That place still doesn't have service. So if you're out in Omi Meadows, you know, way up like beyond,the Valley proper, you don't have service in the back country.

And I've had friends who was who were in climbing accidents and their partners had to hike for hours to get back to Tioga Pass and find a spot where they could. Contact Usar, the search and rescue service. Yeah. But in the Valley proper, if you are out climbing El Capitan or like you talked about, free solo, you know, if you're anywhere on the wall, I believe you can get cell service anywhere.

And that's why you have [00:26:00] people who are, sometimes stuck on a wall in a storm as they're trying to complete a climb and they can be stuck on a portal ledge, you know, a couple thousand feet up suspended. But they are posting, dispatches and they're posting updates on, on social media.

So it is this it's so funny. It's one of those things where like, I believe you would agree, like, those adventures when you your immersion is that much more core. Those are the ones that I think shaped me, and those are the ones I will take with me. But at the same time, it's almost hard to like not take my phone with me, you know, like forcing myself to give up something, which can be like a lifeline or entertainment or whatever that is.

Right, right. Well, and 

Speaker 2: and let me ask you, I mean, it's one of those things where if you don't have, if you don't have the cell phone and say you're going into the back country or any hike you're gonna do or any [00:27:00] climb, and you, you leave the cell phone, and this is definitely controversial, but so you're, you're, mentally choosing to forgo a safety, a piece of safety equipment.



Speaker 2: how do you see that affecting that climb and that adventure? is it amplifying it? I mean, it's obviously making it more risky For sure. And does that actually add to the adventure that all of a sudden you don't have a bailout phone anymore, it's just you and the mountain and that's it.

How does, how do you find that would change? How do you think that would change that adventure? 

Speaker: that is a good question and what's happened with me often is, to be honest, like one reason why I love climbing or I love surfing or these boats is I can be disconnected or I used to be able to be disconnected.

[00:28:00] And what I do now is if I'm out for a day of dragging, which is just. Let's say, say for climbing single pitch, maybe not too far, far out in the woods. Mm-hmm. I will often turn my phone off on purpose just so I can have, half a day or several hours of respite. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Speaker: But if I am on a bigger climb and I will often just leave my phone as is, and I have never, never, like consciously thought about dialing up the aperture on adventure, turning my phone off.

Because the other point you raise, which I think is quite apt, which is it's almost irresponsible nowadays to Turn it off. because somebody could be reaching out and you could be, even if you're not the one looking for help, you could be. You might be able to [00:29:00] help somebody else because you had your phone on you and you, you know, got some distressed message.

So yeah, that's a, that's a tough one, but I, I will say that, yes. I, I don't know about, I was curious, in, in your world, in the world of sailing, do you find that these, the quality of adventure overall is, is receding or changing? Do you think that, because so many, what I know about sailing, again, being an outsider is from the internet and from what I see, I do you think there's still, you know, this, this, uh, Legion of adventures out there, you know, without.

Service And Yeah. is there such a thing? 

Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh, definitely. Well, I, it's interesting you you bring that up because one of my, there was a guy that I met who was in his seventies, and he was, if you think of a, a solo sailor like slash pirate, just old school to the bone, he had been out sailing, you know, all over the [00:30:00] world since like the 1980s, early 1980s.

And when he and I talked at length, uh, one of the things that I asked him about was the safety equipment stuff, because it's very, it would be very uncommon to find a, an offshore boat that doesn't have a life raft. You know, the boat sinks, something happens. You're hopping your life rafting. You hope you get picked up.

And this guy didn't even have one of those. And I pondered that one and I was thinking to myself, okay, so Phil, you know, you don't have, there's like, if the ship goes down, you're going with it. And he's like, absolutely. And I thought about, I always have a life raft on my boat. it's probably the biggest safety piece of safety equipment that you have on every sailboat is that yeah, if you, if you hit something or something happens that that's your, that's your lifeline so that you're not ending up swimming home, uh, from the middle of the [00:31:00] ocean.

And I don't know, I mean, it, I, when I heard that he didn't even have one of those, I, I thought, man, hats off to you. You are just full on like But I, I was also like, that's crazy. Why would you not wanna have that? You know, why wouldn't, why wouldn't you just go and, 'cause it's, it's as big as a suitcase.

It's no big deal. I mean, but to him it was, it was a compromise, I think, of any adventure that he was going on. Wow. and, you know, that, that made me think, now did it make me go and throw my life raft away? Absolutely not. Uh, that is, that is still on the boat, and it will always be on the boat. But I do think there is, I don't know.

I think on the other side of the spectrum, you think of, you know, you, you couldn't, you could wrap your boat and bubble wrap and, and have every single safety feature possible and constantly be like, live [00:32:00] streaming with Coast Guard on the, on the speed dial. And it's kind of like, well. You're missing out on a little bit of the adventure.

I think. I think there has to be some risk involved if it's really going to be kind of a true adventure. But there is definitely a degree where, you know, you're either crazy or you're going so overboard, why are you even going out there? yeah, it's tough that, that's, that is a tough one. I mean, I, I try to prep my boat as best as I can, as far as the safety stuff goes.

But I do know that once I get far enough out into the ocean, there really, unless there's a tanker or a ship, uh, that comes by, I'm pretty much on my own. And especially with the round the world stuff, once you get down to the Southern Ocean. There's no one down there, and your closest rescue would be five, seven days away, typically.

And if you're [00:33:00] even in a life raft, you're gonna succumb to hypothermia well before anybody gets to you. And Sure. And that's why, you know, when you're on that trip and you're doing that sort of level of solo sailing, you are, there is a point, once you get south of the five capes, you're on your own.

And if something really catastrophic goes wrong, you're done. Like that's it. And that, that weighs heavily on you. But it also is what makes that adventure so big and so tough and so daunting. yeah, it's, it's an interesting kind of thing to think of, but I, I guess everybody just needs to find their own comfort level with it because, you know, we're all searching for our own adventure, I guess.

Right. 

Speaker: Firstly, I'm totally fascinated, and this podcast really is really about you, but I will chime in with one other bit. Oh, please do, please do. Yeah. Yeah. That struck me this parallel from the world of climbing and your world, which is a lot of people will [00:34:00] talk about free soloing and call it irresponsible, right?

And right next to free soloing. One step, maybe adjacent. Is it just albinism and difficult traditional climbing in the mountains, which can be just as dangerous. And my point of view on that is if you love something enough. If you love something enough and you understand what the risks are and the hazards are, and I'm sure people who are out there, in, in a boat in the middle of those, passages, they know that I think that you owe it to yourself to follow your heart.

and there are parts of climbing I will not pursue because, not because I, I judge them, but because I think I'm just more stoked about some other kinds of climbing, which happened to incidentally be safer. But if I was as stoked about free soloing or like, you know, those things where [00:35:00] one mistake can lead to death, I would go out and do it because I just feel like, you know, you live once.

Yeah. Right. If I'm gonna got 

Speaker 4: it, you know, if I'm gonna bite it, hell, I'll bite it the way I wanna live my life. 

Speaker 2: Well, can I, can I ask you real quick? I. 'cause I know what in my head is the scariest type of climbing, but what, what do you think is the most dangerous or, or the most frightening type of climbing that people do?

Speaker: Honestly, it is alpine climbing. It is alpine climbing, more climbing. It is alpine climbing where you're going on these expeditions, you know, way deep in the Himalaya or in Patagonia where, a million things can go wrong. yeah, like the weather can turn on a dime. you know, you can bring all your skills, but just being out in really wild conditions.

Speaker 3: Yeah. With 

Speaker: really narrow windows. And sometimes people also make decisions because they might have tried the same [00:36:00] climb for multiple years. Made, made huge sacrifices. And maybe they have like a few hours to get to the summit and. Some people might make that decision and perish because, so yeah, that type of climbing, and I just, and numbers will back that up because people die every year, you know, on K two and Patagonia and, climbs and mountains that are more obscure and nobody hears about them.

But yeah, that's, that, that stuff is pretty, but you know, if you love it, if you love it, if you love it, yeah. I mean 

Speaker 2: that, that's what's giving you that, that joy, you know, to be out there. And that, I have to say, when I think about it, and I've, I've watched tons of the documentaries from, just, I, all stuff from the alpinist to the stuff on Alex, to.

I'm trying to think of the one where the two guys go down and the one falls in the casse. I can't think of the movie that [00:37:00] was based on, but Oh, touching. Touching the void. Touching the void, yeah. Oh my God. That the whole time I'm just sitting there like ringing my hands. I'm so nervous watching that. But, the guys that, that guys and girls, everybody that go and climb ice just seems like the craziest, riskiest thing I've ever seen.

'cause you're, you're basically plunking holes into the ice and hoping it doesn't crack and fall. Oh my God. I, I would never in a million years do something like that. 

Speaker: Jerome, I am not an ice climber, but I would still rather take my chances on a, on climbing a frozen waterfall than being out of the open ocean.

So, so turning it back to you, you know, I, yeah, I, I I don't really understand sailing much less solo sailing. I don't have a sailing background. I grew up in a landlocked city. so when people say solo circumnavigation, [00:38:00] it sounds impressive, but in some ways still a little abstract to me. yeah.

So I'm gonna ask this maybe just this really naive human way, which is if I were somehow dropped onto your boat on some ordinary day when you were out in one of your big trips, so it doesn't have to be a storm or dramatic moment, but, uh, what would. What would a day for me look like on your boat? 

Speaker 2: Oh, okay.

Yeah. I mean, a, a typical day, let's say it's it's normal conditions. You're out in the middle of the ocean somewhere. essentially, almost always I am up and, you know, awake before sunrise. It, it typically just, just, I don't know. I don't know if that's the rhythm I get into, but I, I find that most people are the same way.

So you get up and you're basically, you know, you do a lot of the same things you do on land. You make some [00:39:00] coffee. there's a few routines that are constant in solo sailing. You gotta fill in your log book every six hours or so. Um, so you're jotting down all this information so you're becoming very aware of exactly your latitude and longitude on the planet.

So you know where that is. You watch the sunrise come up, which is, is kind of like your Netflix for the day, if you will, where you get to watch this beautiful scene unfold. And then as soon as the sun is up high enough that you can see everything, uh, the first thing I do is go around and do a check of the deck.

So I walk the boat and make sure and look at every screw and every pin. Looking for chafe and usually it's only about a 10 minute activity, but it's something that's so crucial to check your equipment because even if the conditions are perfect, everything is moving constantly and things wiggle loose and all that.

And the snowball effect, if you will, out on the [00:40:00] ocean, where one small problem turns into a giant situation is very, very quick. So if you can catch these things, you, you catch 'em after I've done that and everything seems to be okay and all that. then it's usually making some sort of grand breakfast. I love doing a big breakfast of like bacon and eggs and hash browns and whatever I have.

on the extended voyages, that stuff runs out after a while and then you're, you're eating oatmeal and, and things like that. But, um, then I pretty much have, I've gotten till. Close to, to noon before I have to really do anything else. So I'm typically, you know, reading or enjoying the low sun. obviously I, you know, my face is still just red from being out, out here in the wintertime where it's cloudy.

The sun is something that I personally have to try and shy away from. And so I try and enjoy the earlier mornings and then the evenings and night. [00:41:00] But basically I read a lot and I try and, make interesting meals. Once we get to noon, then I can, if the weather is good and the sun is out, a lot of times I will actually use a sextant to find my position for my noon site.

it's a hobby. It's not anything that I think is a real necessity anymore. I don't think the GPS satellites are gonna fall out of the sky anytime. but basically do my noon site. Mark my position on the chart, and then I've got the whole afternoon to basically do whatever I want. A lot of times there's little projects or little things that I might work on on the boat if the weather is good.

Uh, but a lot of it is just, you know, spending some time looking out, you know, at the sea and the sky kind of enjoying it. I'm usually listening to music when I'm out there, and then as we get into nightfall and everything, if I haven't uploaded the weather, forecast, I [00:42:00] usually do that every, like two or three days.

So I'm constantly kind of being involved in that. If I start to see some dark clouds on the horizon, I might refer back to the forecast, you know, see what's going on. But then try and cook a nice meal for dinner. I have a sun downer, some sort of, uh, you know, cocktail or something like that to celebrate the sunset, and then it's off into the night.

and the sleep schedule, which is what most people really want to know, is typically I will around 10 to midnight start to, you know, hit the bunk and I'll just go down. If everything's going well, I'll go down and read a little bit and then I'll just fall asleep. And I usually sleep for about an hour or so and naturally just kinda wake up and I don't set any alarms or anything like that, but you wake up and I'll pop my head up and look at the sky.

I'm looking for squalls or rain or any changes [00:43:00] and if everything looks good, right back to the bunk and I fall asleep. And I'll do that throughout the next like eight hours until just about sunrise. And yeah, I mean that, that is a very typical fair weather day out on the sea. 

Speaker: I'm glad you. Mentioned the term Fairweather at the end, because I was listening to you and I was feeling a little transported, and part of me was imagining me like being on some kind of a cruise ship, you know, because it just seemed, it just seemed, uh, so comfortable.

But obviously you have your system style and the kinds of things that you can do, maybe almost in autopilot with checking on your boat, checking for the weather, checking for all these like hundred myriad things. It would take somebody else, at land lover like myself, like just that much longer to, but that maybe that's part of just the [00:44:00] honed expertise that you have with your craft, like one could have with something else where you can just do things just so well.

So. Efficiently and which maybe allows you that level of, comfort and joy and yeah. And just, continuity in that lifestyle. how long did it take you, Jerome, when you did your circumnavigation? 

Speaker 2: yeah, that one took 271 days to go from Gloucester, Massachusetts. You go basically across and down the Atlantics, and then you're basically doing a lap around Antarctica, and then you come back up and it was just, just, uh, about just a shade under 30,000 miles to, to complete that lap of the globe.

Wow. Um, doing in that, and it's, it's tricky because leaving from the United States,is [00:45:00] very hard because. You're trying to time things around being in the southern ocean during the southern summer months. And that unfortunately doesn't line up with the hurricane season in the Atlantic. And that's why like 99% of these trips leave from Europe, or they leave from like Australia or something like that because they don't, you can, you can leave at the perfect time.

If you leave from the us you've gotta wait until that hurricane season is least in its last month, which is October, to safely be able to cut across the hurricane path. And I, I still had to, move further south to avoid a hurricane in the Atlantic. And that was within the first, like, 10 days of the trip.



Speaker 2: it's a bit of a beast to do it from the United States, which is why I, I think mine was the first that ever. My mine was the first successful one to, um, leave from the United States, [00:46:00] from a port in the us, which I didn't even know back then. And I don't even know if it's true today. I think it is, but that wasn't a, anyway, that wasn't the point.

But yeah, that's, that was the journey.

Speaker: Out of those 200 plus days, just ballpark, how many days were similar to the fair weather day that you just described? And then how many were, let's say more, uh, interesting. 

Speaker 2: I would say. on that journey, because you are going down to the Southern Ocean, which is a very, it's a very different sort of beast altogether because the, the low pressure systems, the storms and the calms in between 'em are pretty severe.

And compared to like the trade winds that fill up the vast majority of the Atlantic and the Pacific oceans, I would say it's probably about 70% [00:47:00] interesting and 30%, fair weather, perfect sailing conditions, maybe something around there, 70, 70 30 or 80 20. So you do have to, you have to fight through the, the stuff to get to the good, uh, to the good points, that's for sure.

Speaker: Yeah. And back of the envelope calculation, like 1 71 80 odd days, which. Threw different kinds of challenges at you and made you really earn those fair weather days like the one you just described. Can you take us into one of those days which didn't go quite asland? 

Speaker 2: Oh yeah. I mean, and, and there's, there's a million different types of those days.

because every situation is always a little different, how the sea is reacting to the wind and what [00:48:00] the sky is throwing at you. Whether it's just really strong winds or if they're squally, shifty winds where, the direction is constantly changing. I guess, for instance, one, one of the really challenging days that I still remember was when I had to do about 24 or 25 sail changes in a day.

And basically anytime the wind speed changes, I have to change the sail plan. So I either need to make the sail smaller or I need to switch the sail, like take a big sail and take that down and put up a smaller sail. And there was a day, and I believe it was down in the southern ocean where it was just constantly changing.

The winds would not stay the same for more than 20 or 30 minutes at a time. But to be able to keep this boat going and make sure that I don't break anything every single time that wind changed, I had to go up on deck, [00:49:00] I had to change this, you know, I'm working the sales, I'm changing things, putting 'em in a bag, taking it down below, bringing a new one out.

And it's a very physically demanding thing. Plus, every time you're up there, you're getting splashed with cold salt water. The wind is cold, you're in the elements. And just when you think, okay, well we should be good here, the wind shifts again and immediately I have to go grab a new sail and change it out once more.

And this just went on and on and it just never stopped throughout the day. And I can remember finally becoming the calmed at the end of the day at sunset, and I was, I have a video of it, just me talking to the camera and I'm so sunburnt and wind burnt. And there are, it was just the most brutal, exhausting day where I didn't get any rest.

I couldn't eat in, I couldn't cook any meals or anything. It was all just grab something and s shoved it in my mouth. And it was something where even in the [00:50:00] video I said, boy, I really earned this. I had to earn every single mile that I got that day because of the effort that I had to put in and. if I had to choose between doing that and having a perfect condition day, yeah, I'd rather do the perfect condition, but at the end of that day, I wouldn't have felt as good or as accomplished as I did after changing the sail 24 times, nonstop all day stoking wet.

You know, you're like, wow, I really did it. And that, that sense of accomplishment I think is something very valuable. especially if you know that it's gonna be there while you're in that fight. That is something that if you can draw off to get that energy boost to keep going, that's 

Speaker: insane.

Like, I can just visualize you having came to sale, having come down. For the umpteenth time [00:51:00] and then having the wind change on you again. Yeah. And then you just getting up and climbing up that 

Speaker 2: first you're just like, oh, not again. And you're yelling at the world around and then you go grab the sail and change it.

Speaker: That's right. That that order is important. And then you come back down again and you're like, okay, now I'm finally done. But then it happens yet again. And uh, and I'm also sensing, yes, you got pushed beyond some limits and finally things changed for you. But I can also sense the kind of deep sense of accomplishment that you found after that.

So that sounds like a really good story, a tough story, but with some kind of a happy ending. I am going to read something I found on your website, Jerome, and I would love to hear you talk about it. [00:52:00] So if it's okay with you, can I just read out this little passage? Sure. Absolutely. On November 14th, 2022, Jerome sets sale from Rockland, Maine to circumnavigate the North and South Atlantic.

Little did he know just how quickly the ocean can turn a sailor's world upside down. Within a week that adventure was halted by a single rogue wave. For most people, that just sounds dramatic, but I'm guessing that in the moment, that moment determined what was gonna happen next. So can you take us back to that moment?

Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh yeah. that was the scariest night I've ever had out at sea. so in 2022, yeah. I was set off to do this circumnavigation of the North and South Atlantic, and [00:53:00] essentially I had to keep pushing my departure date back until into middle of November, which the North Atlantic Ocean is really nasty in the wintertime.

And yeah, essentially I found myself in a position where I was in the Gulf Stream, which is a very fast moving, warm water current. And a system was coming out that. The forecast. Didn't say it was all that big, but it was a lot bigger than, they knew and it would kept amplifying because of the Gulf stream.

And essentially, you know, everything just kept building and then the sun goes down and it was overcast. So it's a pitch black night and the gale and the storm just kept increasing and getting worse and worse. And essentially in the middle of the night I'm down below trying to, trying to get a little bit of sleep and that's, it's [00:54:00] almost impossible.

All I'm really trying to do is just rest my body, like lay down in my bunk. 'cause you can't sleep with the sound of breaking waves and the whistling through the rigging and the motion. 'cause you're still sailing, you're still trying to get through this storm. and essentially outta nowhere, the boat got lifted up.

We turned basically upside down and then we fell down the front of a wave. And when we were impacted. Uh, when the impact happened, it, that's when I realized it was really bad because I basically got completely covered by everything that was inside of that boat to the point where I could feel the pressure.

And if I think about it, I could still feel what it felt like to try and dig myself out of all that. But essentially a very large wave picked us up, turned us upside down, and, and threw us over the falls as if I was like a surfer. And, um, yeah, it was, it was kind of go time at that point where I needed to do crisis [00:55:00] management.

I needed to make sure and see what was broken. And there was a lot of stuff that was broken. Things were dragging behind the boat. I needed to make sure we were at least still able to sail. And sorta you just, it, it was interesting 'cause it wasn't one of those things where. The shock of it sent me into like a paralyzed sort of state of like, oh my gosh, I don't know what to do.

It was a pretty instantaneous thing of like, okay, we gotta inspect. And I got up there and I had a flashlight, and I'm looking around and I'm going through a checklist in my head of what's there and what's broken and how do we make sure we keep going. And I don't know, those, those couple of minutes seem to go by, on autopilot, if you will.

I have video clips from it and I'm talking to the camera, but it wasn't something, I think all human [00:56:00] beings, when we get faced and, and put into these sort of situations that are like, you know, kind of live or die, or, disaster is right there and you cannot do anything but face it. I think we have an innate ability to just start going through it and, and making decisions and, and we actually get into problem solving, uh, without even really having to think about it.

It's not one of those things where I think we, we freak out and then we don't know what to do. We run around like crazy person. I think it's, when it's real deal, you just go and it's like a survival instinct mechanism.

Speaker: Well, sounds like a day like no other Yeah. This completely incredible day moment that you went through and you spoke of how, I guess as humans we can rise to [00:57:00] the occasion. Meet some challenges, and obviously you did, trying to understand what skills did you ly found you had, because you obviously are a very skilled sailor, but there, were there some talents in you that you were also surprised that helped you make it past that night?



Speaker 2: you know, I, I think at its core it was really just about your, my ability of like I was saying, getting on that autopilot of like, we just got into it and we started checking off each box as it went. Like is the boat. Is the boat sinking? No, it's not. is the mass in sail? Are we still under control?

Are we sailing in the direct? No, we're not. So let's get to that and fix that one. And is there potential for more damage to occur? [00:58:00] Yes, there is. I gotta cut all this stuff free that's dangling behind the boat, uh, you know, on the rudder. and then thinking like, is this, am I doing, am I being safe? by sitting up here in the cockpit now rather than being down below?

No, I'm not. So let's get back down below and just kind of cognitively making these decisions and going through 'em. But I think at its, at its core, it was just one of those things where, because I was in a situation that there was no one and no way out of, I just had to face it. I was able to see in real time how I react to that.

You know, I, I don't think you can really get that, in our normal everyday lives, especially on land where there's ways that, you know, you can kinda maybe put somebody else in front of it or you can just not do it because you're not gonna be drowned by the ocean. if that makes sense.

[00:59:00] Where out there, if I was just like, you know what? I am not into this. I'm done. If I just went down below and sat, I, I wouldn't be here today because I wouldn't have fixed the things that needed to be fixed. And even as scary as it was to be like, up on the boat, cutting things free and lashing things down with these big waves and everything all around me that I can't see, I can only feel, And then, yeah, it would've been, I would've not been here because the boat wouldn't have gotten back on track and we wouldn't have made it out of there. And yeah, again, on land, if you are like, oh, I'm done. I'm not doing this, you know, I don't feel like doing this project for the boss today. And, the worst consequences, you might get fired and you're still gonna be alive.

and that's where I think the, the real true essence of like, adventure, kinda, that's the biggest gift a true adventure can give somebody. Is it, it, it just [01:00:00] shows them what they're made of, what they're capable of. And when you, when you find yourself in that situation and you come out on top and you survive it, it, it, I think breeds this really important knowledge about oneself and confidence and all these other things that you never really know until you get tested.

Speaker: Absolutely. And maybe going back to our earlier thread where, one doesn't wanna wish for that. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Speaker: But when that happens and it pulls you into it and it draws out skills, talents, even resilience that you didn't know you had, and they allow you to meet that moment and get past it. I mean, that is just the just the, the more, most like, uh, memorable thing one can hope for.

in today's day and age, with the technology you [01:01:00] have available, is it indeed possible to get into the kind of accidents that boats used to get into, which was, let's say, colliding into another? Vessel or maybe, you know, hitting an iceberg, Allah, Titanic.

Uh, Titanic. Yeah. Yeah, it's, I mean, you know, because you mentioned being able to go to sleep of course, you know, you have to rest. So are the systems capable enough these days to ward off that kind of risk? 

Speaker 2: It's a lot less risky than it used to be before the prevalence of a IS, especially for the shipping traffic.

But the environment has changed as well out there. there's a lot more shipping going on and that that system doesn't work a hundred percent of the time. The other thing is there are, I think there's more debris in the ocean than there used to be. I've never seen any [01:02:00] containers that are like half submerged, but I do know they say, there's probably 10,000 of 'em out there floating at any one time.

I've heard that number before. And yeah, I mean, I, I think it's a lot safer probably than it used to be just with the connectivity and everything. But, um, there's still plenty of risks and plenty of things that can happen. I mean, you know, you could be struck by a sleeping whale or, they've got those orcas off of the Portuguese coast that, you know, attack boats now and I don't know.

Wow. There's a lot of threats out there. Yeah. But shipping because of a IS that, that has definitely made that, that situation, I think a whole lot better, from a safety standpoint. 

Speaker: One other thing that I find just blows me away about your management of your circumstances being a solo, voyager is the [01:03:00] elevated decision making ability.

You seem to have to be able to just go through checklists, look into things, manage things, and is this like a skill that took you a while to develop? Did you make checklists? Did you train yourself? Or was a lot of that spontaneous? Because I think that, I think that you could give us a, a class on how to prepare oneself 

Speaker 2: Well, I, I, I think it was something that developed in me over time.

Not just in sailing, but also in the work that I used to do. like I said before, doing like sailing schools and water sports, there's a million different little things that have to happen every single day for operations to run smooth. And, I learned from screwing up. that's, it's like, oh, [01:04:00] I dropped the ball here.

I gotta make sure we always focus on that. But yeah, the idea of like having checklists in the beginning to sort of train up is a huge part of it. I always tell my clients, you want to have a departure checklist of, you know, the 15 or 20 things that you need to have ready and are checked off on the boat.

You know, IE I've got a full tank of fuel and I've got, a ration of water and my safety gear has been looked over. So you have a physical piece of paper that you have to check that off every time before you go out. Once you've done it enough, then it becomes, you know, a no brainer. You can just, you know, what you have to check off.

and that just comes with time. And for me, it's just been, it's been decades now of the same sort of systems that I'm looking at and trying to make sure I have ready. But it is something that it, it took a lot of screwing up and a [01:05:00] lot of forgetting this and forgetting that and paying the price to, uh, to really get it down.

the only other thing I would say is, is really trying to maintain an awareness of everything that's going on around you. That becomes really important when, because a checklist can only take you so far. There's always gonna be outlier issues or problems or things that come up that, that you can't have a checklist that's gonna catch all those.

And that's where kind of keeping an eye on the world around you and being aware of what's going on. Any changes, I think really comes into play where it's kind of like, oh, you know, I, I caught off in the distance. There were some clouds, you know, at the sunset that seemed to be kind of growing, but now it's dark and you can't see 'em anymore, but you remember that they were there.

And so maybe you're gonna, you're [01:06:00] not gonna sleep, you're not gonna go and hit the bunk quite so early because you wanna see what, what's gonna happen. And then you find out, you know, squalls are coming in and if you were asleep you might have broken some stuff and all that. And I don't know, just kind of keeping that mental state of, like, I wanna observe and be aware of, of everything that's going on.



Speaker: it just seems that in you, there's this combination of lots and lots of just practice over the years. Lot of practice. Yeah. In all kinds of, situations and professions, but then also just some innate talent you might have. And I'm just curious, just as a, maybe as a fun question, like how many hours of you, you know, to talk about that, that honed competence theory, that it takes 10,000 hours or more to get to that level where things can be in, in a state of flow.

So how many hours, I don't know, [01:07:00] days, months, years, did it take you before you reach that level of competence, which allowed you to, for example, meet and. And, survive that glamorous situation with that rogue wave? 

Speaker 2: Oh geez. I honestly, I think it's almost like endless. I think by the time I set off on that voyage, I had probably solo sailed around 500 or more days where I was out overnight, 500 days or more by myself.

I was probably close to 900 to a thousand days at sea total. throughout all. And a lot of that was, you know, working on other people's boats and basically being a crew member or a first mate and I'm learning from the captain. so there was, I mean, there was a huge amount of time spent out at sea in [01:08:00] all sorts of different situations.

That, you know, lended themselves to, I think the ability to cope with and deal with what was going on. But I think you might find this interesting and it hearkens back to a bit of the technology. So on that trip, the days leading up to that storm, I, for the first time had a new piece of technology that allowed me not only to forecast the wind, but also see what the ocean currents were doing.

And like I said, the Gulf Stream is a pretty dangerous place to be around in any sort of bad weather. And prior to this trip, prior to that technology, I never would've gone anywhere near the Gulf Stream because I knew from all the years of experience that you just don't go there if the weather's gonna be bad.

But on this trip, because I could see the current. I was like, I can get across that and then I can get through [01:09:00] these Eddies right here and here. And even though it's gonna be kind of, you know, a little bit dicey, I can get through it now because I have this tech, which led me to make the choice to go into the Gulf Stream with that weather coming.

And so in a lot of ways, all that experience got pushed aside by the shiny new technology, which in fact, let me down because the forecast was wrong. It was incorrect on the current forecast. And you know, I wound up paying a huge price on that. And going forward now, one of the things that I always talk about with my clients is that we can't a hundred percent trust this stuff.

We have to remember that there is a big foundation of seamanship. In, you know, having a barometer and knowing what the clouds are gonna do and, and having all this old time, what some would say is sort of, um, [01:10:00] bygone sort of knowledge. There's still a huge amount of very valuable information in that, that needs to be accounted for.

We can't just be like, oh yeah, well I got my iPhone, I got Navi and I can download weather. I'm good to cross an ocean. It just doesn't work that way. Well said. 

Speaker: Because man might think that he's teamed nature, but nature can still throw curve balls at you. And I, I can't think of too many people like yourself who have gained that perspective because you have been out there facing nature in All it's wait for, I'm curious if you have something to say about how much of nature still 

Speaker 2: remains 

Speaker: out there. 

Speaker 2: Oh, well, yeah. I see. And that's, I think that's kind of the cool thing is that as soon as you get a hundred miles off of any shoreline and you're out, way offshore, you're in the [01:11:00] wild West, nothing's changed out there.

I mean, it really is. It's just wind and waves and the sea in the sky. And it is the most elemental place, I think, on our planet where it's just those two things, sea and sky, and all you're trying to do is basically cut a path through it, utilizing the wind. And I, I don't know, I think there's something so pure and so basic about it, but at the same time.

Whether I'm looking at a beautiful sunrise or I'm staring at, a million speckles of light in the sky in the middle of the night, like it is the most awe-inspiring and beautiful place I think, on a planet. 

Speaker: Amazing. I mean, that kind of gave me goosebumps.

Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you what, one, one of the real quick, one of the most special, things I've ever seen out there, and it only, it happens [01:12:00] so rarely that, uh, it's, I've only seen it maybe two or three times in all, all time that sea, but sometimes in our offshore world, the ocean goes like flat, like a pond.

there's barely even a ripple. And if you catch an area like that and you have a cloudless sky with no moon, one of the things that happens is the horizon disappears. If there's no wind at all, the stars reflect from the ocean. And when you're on a boat and the boat still is slowly rocking a little bit, whoa.

But when you stand up on the front of the boat on the bow and you look out, essentially you can't tell the difference between the sky and the sea, and it's all filled with stars. And I can't tell you how incredible it feels like you are drifting in outer space and it's, it's so rare. So many things have to come together to make it happen.

But I've seen it a few times [01:13:00] and it is awe inspiring. Like it's one of my favorite experiences I've ever had on the ocean. 

Speaker: Wow. I'm just mesmerized. I really am. And maybe, uh, I guess it, it has to be such a rare thing that it feels like a true gift. Oh, that mother nature, felt that you had earned it and you got to see wow stars reflecting on the ocean surface.

That just sounds so otherworldly. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And, and the fact that it's, I mean, it's all around you. It's a 360 degree horizon, so anywhere you look, you're still in that same space. And it is, it's something very, very special. 

Speaker: Incredible. I know we are getting close to the hour, and I still have a couple of things to ask you.

Sure, sure. I call this the [01:14:00] ageless section. And, you know, just zooming out a little bit, Jerome, you have had all these adventures out at sea. And if, if you don't mind, how old are you? 

Speaker 2: Uh, I am 46. About to turn 47. 

Speaker: Okay. I just turned 47, so we are almost the same age. 

Speaker 4: Oh, right on. And 

Speaker: yeah. And at this stage of life, what still motivates you to choose something demanding instead of something comfortable?



Speaker 2: you know, I think I have become a very firm believer that the more you have to suffer through something, the more joy you're going to get out of it. When you get out of it,For instance, a very tough passage out at sea. I know that if I don't give up [01:15:00] and I endure it, and I deal with the wet and the cold, and the fear that when the storm breaks and I get that beautiful day of sailing, that day is gonna be so much more beautiful then had I waited until the storm passes and then I go out sailing, uh, if that makes sense.

I, I really do think that if you want to experience true joy, there needs to be an element of suffering in that before, before that. And I, I don't know, maybe I've become a little bit addicted to that and just a normal sort of happy day. Yeah, it's great, but I, I want it to be an exceptional day, and the way that I've found that, that typically happens is, you know, you set some challenge or some goal.

That it's gonna be tough to get to and the tougher it is, the better it's gonna feel when I get to that goal. And so that's something I've always, [01:16:00] always liked and I think I'm always chasing after. 

Speaker: So are you saying that right after this podcast ends, if I open my phone and scroll through YouTube shorts and eat ice cream, that's not quite gonna cut it?

Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, you know, that might feel good right there in the moment and I, I know that definitely would. then think of two, three hours from then, you know, how are you gonna feel as opposed to, even if you just go outside and go take a walk somewhere. Go out and look at Mother Nature and. I don't know.

Or, or go out and do some, some big, fitness routine or something like that, that, you know, you break a sweat and you, you work really hard. And then, I mean, you talk to anybody who just walks out of a gym after like a two hour long workout, they're usually pretty [01:17:00] happy. They're excited because it's over, but also because of what they just did.

And I don't know, I mean, obviously there's a balance. You don't want to go crazy one way, but I think it's something where, in a world that seems to be chasing after the idea of like, I wanna be safe and secure and I wanna be happy and always, enjoying everything. I do think there's something missing in that.

And that is the fact that we gotta suffer through some stuff. We have to take on hard things. We have to set goals that make it so we have to work, because if you don't have the sense of accomplishing anything, then that, that joy just isn't gonna be quite as good.

Speaker: Well said. You have this new lifestyle perhaps, where you also spend part of the year on land and you are doing all these other things. [01:18:00] Where are you finding this self, self-inflicted suffering that allows you to earn your reward at the end? 

Speaker 2: Uh, well, you know, I find it, I find it in every little aspect of just about everything I do.

I mean, even. So let's say I have a speaking engagement. Uh, I just, I, the last one that I had was outside of Boston at a school. And to get there, I had to drive from Michigan, which is about like a 16 hour road trip. And basically like I'm in this car and I'm this isn't exactly what I want to be doing with my time and I'm kind of suffering through this road trip and it's a little uncomfortable and the snow and all that.

And it's, you know, it's a little nerve wracking. And then I get to the, the speaking engagement and I do that and that's fun and everything goes well with that. But then I still have to drive all the way back [01:19:00] home. So it ends up being like this four day trip. But when I got back home, then I was ah, I felt like I had accomplished something.

We did a good job. We made it through. And, you know, had I just been able to sit at home for four days and like watch movies or something. I sure as heck wouldn't be feeling that same amount of accomplishment. and I think that's it. You know, I, I try, look at the world through that point of view with just about everything I do.

And, I don't always succeed at it. I spend plenty of time watching movies and being like, ah, I'm just gonna relax. but it's one of those things where I think when we set our perspective of like, I'm gonna try and get as much out of this as possible, and yeah, I don't want to be doing this, but what is the benefit of that, that which I don't wanna do?

What benefit is that gonna give me after I do it if I don't give up or I don't decide not to do it? That. hopefully that made sense.[01:20:00] 

Speaker: All I can say is more of us need to find ways to develop that perspective. we are not all gonna go and sail around the world solo, but we have to find out ways through which we can push ourselves so we can find this joy that is waiting for us at the end. Durham, you have accomplished these really tough sailing missions, and I'm just curious, do you think your best sailing days are behind you or still ahead of you?



Speaker 2: you know, that's a good question. I don't know if I will ever do, a sailing trip quite as. As big as that one going around the world. Um, I had attempted some trips that were as big, if not bigger, where, you know, [01:21:00] failed. We, the boat broke. the pandemic locked some of the passages that I was gonna try and go and, and I think during those years, I think my perspective on it changed a little bit.

but you never know. It's, it's kind of a funny thing, adventures, because just when you think like, ah, you know, I'm not gonna do it, something can, you know, a book or somebody saying something or the idea of a new adventure can all of a sudden just ignite with just the tiniest spark. And then you get that, you get that fire in your belly, like, oh, I gotta go do that one.

Oh. And then, you know, once, once I find that it's basically like, okay, I need a game plan in place to. To when am I gonna be able to do this? And it, it turns into a freight train. So I won't say never, but I don't know if I'll ever do anything quite as big as that one. 

Speaker: Sure. And yeah, I mean that lion [01:22:00] is gonna stay in you, whether it's sleeping or whether it's Georg.

And I can sense that adventure can take different forms. It may not be as long in length, but it could be just as or maybe even more intense in a different way. And, I can just see the fire in you when you talk about sailing, and I can just sense that you are going to be, uh, finding ways to get that, uh, excitement in some way or the other out in the ocean.

I believe during that you also speak at. Different events you provide talks on motivation and what do you hope, what is that one key message that you hope people take away when they hear you speak? 



Speaker 2: I think, there, there's definitely a lot of lessons that I draw from these adventures and try [01:23:00] to make them make sense in either the business world or for kids who are in school and dealing with their challenges or just, being at some, you know, a yacht club or something and they want to hear a very enthralling adventure story.

Uh, I think my goal though, when I speak to a group of people who are looking for more of a message, I think if I can help somebody overcome. All of the what ifs and all the worries that are preventing them from taking the first steps, whether it's the fear of failure or they don't believe in themselves, they don't have the confidence.

I think if I can show them what's possible with just such a small, I mean a 50-year-old boat, zero budget. I've never done a trip this big before and [01:24:00] look at what happened, look at the outcome. If I can, if I can make that resonate with somebody to the, where they're like, oh, you know, I've always wanted to do this, or I want to go for that next job promotion, but I've been too afraid or I'm too worried about the outcome.

If I can make them take those first steps and get moving in that direction. I think that's the real goal is to get people. Going forward and willing to forego all the worries and just go after what they're going for. 

Speaker: And isn't that like honestly just the biggest thing, like just taking those first steps?

First 

Speaker 2: steps? Yeah. It's always the first step 'cause it's the hardest ones. and even every single time I go sailing, every time, no matter how big or small the passage is, the first 24 hours before I leave the dock and you know I'm going, those are always the ones where your brain is just going crazy with [01:25:00] worries and questions and doubts.

But once you untie and you actually start moving and you're sailing the boat, all that stuff fades away always. But it's just being able to untie those lines. that's the big hiccup. And once you can get past that, man it, you're gold. 

Speaker: Jim, how long have you been sailing now? 

Speaker 2: Uh, I started when I was about 18 years old, and so now I guess, does that put me at 30 years? No, 20. Yeah, 33 decades. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, once I started I never stopped. It was, I was just constant. 

Speaker: yeah. Sure. And whenever one has been doing something for le certain length of time and has accomplished this level of mystery and has aspired to and achieved all these adventures, at some point things start feeling a little bit of the [01:26:00] same.

Like I found that I have plateaued in some of the things I do and others. Do you have any tools in your bag with which. You can continue finding joy in the things you love. 

Speaker 2: Oof. That's a toughie. Um, you know, honestly, I, I think a big part of it is trying to explore and find new avenues. You know, obviously I like adventure, I like sailing adventures.

and you're right. I mean, I've gone through the same situations solo sailing over and over and over again, to the point where, yeah, there are times where I'm like, okay, here we go again. Another storm's gonna come in, we're gonna go through it, blah, blah, blah. But what I've done there is now, because I do this consulting where I go onboard other people's vessels, now all of a sudden I'm on a different sort of trip.

I still get the sailing, but now I'm also, you [01:27:00] know, helping to troubleshoot and educate and I'm on a different type of boat with a different type of passage, and that's where I find a bit of a new spark. And one of the nice parts is after I've done a few of these in a row, then when I get back to my boat and it, I plan a little solo trip, all of a sudden I'm like, oh man, yes, just me out there.

Speaker 3: Oh. 

Speaker 2: And it kinda revitalizes the joy. So not totally giving up on it, but doing a different variation for a while. That whole idea of like absence makes the heart grow fonder. I think it's the same way with adventure because, you know, you, you step away from it for enough time and then you start being like, oh man, wouldn't it be great to get back out there and do one more, or, do this type of trip.

So I think that helps a little bit. 

Speaker: And maybe I'm also sensing that when you are consulting and maybe even teaching others and you are giving back and [01:28:00] actually not just, you are even write, you know, you're writing books and you're producing this long running podcast and giving back in some way, spreading your joy maybe gives you back some of that a little bit and you can then take that and just inject that into your own aspirations.

Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, 'cause when I see, when I see a client,after I spend like five days with them and then they go off and are, they feel confident and they're ready and they go off on their own adventure. When I hear that joy and that excitement and that nervousness in their voice, I'm like, oh.

'cause I know that before. They would never go out and do it. They were stuck. That's why they called me, is they were like, I have too many worries and concerns and I just can't make the leap. And then I work with them and then all of a sudden they're ready to do it [01:29:00] and they go and do it. When I see that, it makes me be like, oh, well I'm, I, now I gotta go, do I gotta go do something too, because I want that feeling.

And you know, I think a lot of it when you're, if you're around a bunch of people who have plateaued and they're just kind of sticking with the norm and they're not like taking risks or anything, well that's kind of gonna bleed into what you're dealing with. And if you surround yourself with people who are excited and invigorated and want to get out there and do things that's infectious and it, it hits, you know, and it, it can, I think, revitalize somebody like me to be like.

Ah, dude, I want that feeling again. I gotta go back out there. I'm gonna plan a different trip and I'm gonna get to work on it. And so I think that kind of helps for sure. Jerome, 

Speaker: you, you certainly spreading your message far and wide. You have this lively YouTube channel, you have this [01:30:00] great podcast, you've written books.

Where should people begin if they want to learn more about Jerome and your adventures? 

Speaker 2: Ooh, uh, well, I'd, I'd always say the book for sure, because it's, it's the grand story of going around the world, sailing into oblivion. But it's, uh, I would say if people want, if people really want to just a glimpse into.

my life and my life out at sea. I would say the YouTube channel, you know, it's, it's a bit of a modge podge of just videos from different trips and all that sort of stuff. but it, you know, you'll be able to see in action Me out there. The last, the most recent videos are all from a storm that I went through, in the North Atlantic about a month ago.

And so I'm still out there dealing with the big waves and the heavy wind and stuff. And, uh, yeah. So I would say check that out and then, yeah, check out all, all the rest of the stuff. There's [01:31:00] lots of links and everything for all the social media stuff, but it's all under sailing into oblivion. 

Speaker: Amazing. And Jeremy, you're obviously a born storyteller.

Like I was taken into your world, so I'm sure that, reading your book staying in tune with your adventures through your. YouTube feed will also take people into your world. And who knows, you might just inspire somebody out there to go and take a sailing course or a lesson and find their own adventure at sea.

And just final question, Jerome, what does being ageless mean to you? 

Speaker 2: Ah, I would think being ageless means that you, you don't lose the enthusiasm for life. you're, you always have a bit of a passion for when you wake up in the [01:32:00] morning, that the world around you is full of possibility and you just don't forget that every single day that you do wake up is a blessing and you should take advantage of it.