Why You Should Fight For What Defines You — Jack Tackle, 72, on the Discipline of Decades

Ageless Athlete - Jack Tackle
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Jack: [00:00:00] I am in our yurt in Castle Valley, Utah, where we spend spring and fall. And I'm looking across a rainy castle valley towards Castle and Tower right now. and I had a very modest breakfast this morning. I had yogurt and berries, so I'm trying to do better in my old age, 

Kush: Yeah. This is cool. I I can see this yurt in your background.

Is this, is this a full-time thing that, is it like a permanent dwelling? 

Jack: Yeah, it stays up. We just, uh, don't come here in the winter, in the summer because it's too hot in the summer and too cold in the winter to have it be an efficient, housing situation. spring and fall, it's great. 

Kush: Okay.

I'm trying to understand what living in a yurt might look like. So, you know, in that spectrum of living in, let's say a tent versus living in a brick and mortar house, where does this fall? [00:01:00] 

Jack: Well, this is way closer to a brick and mortar house than a tent. it's a 24 foot diameter yurt. It's, fully structured.

we have, 



Jack: running water and wifi obviously. and we have a nice deck and we have a full bathhouse shower structure next to us. and also a guest cabin. So it's, it's not camping. it's just not something that's a four season structure for living. 

Kush: Understood. It's glamping plus plus.

And, uh, so what happens when, when. You are not there. Like when this is not in season, does it, do you fold down? 

Jack: no. We just winterized to plumbing and shut things down. in the wintertime, like when we leave here, coming up at the end of October and in the summertime, we just cover things up and again, break everything down in terms of, not [00:02:00] having food in the refrigerator and all that summertime we can leave, you know, the power and the water on.

We don't have to worry about that like we do in the wintertime. So it's, it's, you know, it's a three or four hour deal to get outta here from between seasons. It's not that big a problem. 

Kush: That's not bad. Wow. yeah, you giving some of us ideas and, uh, talking of accommodation, this is a great segue.

So Jack, when we were creating messages. You spoke about how you had started Van Life way back in the day you moved into a van. And I thought, I thought I would lean into that for a minute Van Life and climbing sometimes spring from like the same impulse. A desire to be able to climb a lot in different places, but also 



Kush: seeking freedom, maybe a bit of [00:03:00] restlessness.

So tell me about this Van Life chapter of your life. Uh, and I'm, yeah. I'm really keen on learning how Van life back then when you started, is different than what some of us are doing today. 

Jack: my first comment would be it, it wasn't even called Van Life then, 'cause it was so long ago. but I had been in organized athletics, but I had not started climbing yet.

dropped outta college and I worked in an RV place, so I learned how to convert things in terms of, you know, building out a van. And, uh, so I had this goal to, uh, have the van be self-sufficient so I could drive around the country and just figure out what I was gonna do next. 'cause I was, not, in school anymore and I didn't really know what I wanted to do.

So that was 1973. [00:04:00] And so I was 19 and I took off and I spent almost a year on the road. By myself. I made the halfway point from Oregon where I was going to school and living at the time as a halfway point. I used Washington, DC where my parents were living. 'cause my father worked for the Forest Service in the national office at that point.

And when I got there, there was this little thing going on called the Watergate hearings. And I was very interested in what was going on between, you know, Nixon and Watergate and Vietnam and all the civil rights things. And that's alt of the sixties. So I ended up going to the Watergate hearings. My dad got me a congressional pass and I went to.

The first three weeks of the hearings and it was a seminal moment. 'cause up until that [00:05:00] point I had the delusional dream that I might go to law school and be an attorney. And since every one of those guys was an attorney, convinced me not to do that being, idealistic and young and 19 and all that.

So, uh, anyway, I left DC after that and drove west, and that's when I looked up some old grade school friends in Boman, Montana, where I'd gone to, you know, grade school and earlier times. And they asked me if I wanted to go climbing. So the first time I ever went climbing, I was almost 20 and it was near the end of this band trip.

So it was a completely different kind of sequence. As it relates to, you know, building a van and going climbing and living in the van, I sort of did in reverse. Yeah. 

Kush: Very different. Before we jump too far ahead, uh, what kind of rig did you have? 

Jack: It [00:06:00] was a 1967 Dodge Caravan. Had a three 18 slush box transmission on the dash, and I cut the roof off and built a full fiberglass canopy and fully kitted it out with, cabinets and a dinette that folded into a bed and stove, refrigerator, oven heater.

Oh wow. just like vans are now, pretty much. Um, and, uh, so 

Kush: well you were handy and was there a a lot of culture of people moving into Vans in the early seventies or were you a bit of an. Iconoclast. 

Jack: The only reason I got the van idea, and the only reason I did what I did in part, was the only thing that was going on in Van Life, if you will at all, was people that had Volkswagen West failure [00:07:00] campers, and they had come into the states in the sixties and my parents had one starting in the early seventies.

other than that, nobody was living in a van. Sure. 





Jack: I'm pretty sure I'm right about this. I could be proven wrong, but I don't, you know, I drove around the country for a year and people stared at me. 'cause first I had Oregon plates when I was in the South and I had long hair, and, uh, I don't remember seeing many.

Stands other than West Phil, Dan, and campers. 

Kush: Fair enough. And you mentioned your dad being a research scientist for the foreign service. I feel that is not the most common of professions I hear about, and you also didn't start climbing until you were older. But I'm curious, [00:08:00] what kind of imprint did that life in the woods?

Was your dad like stationed in national parks or in places where you had just steady exposure to the outdoors And maybe a different type of outdoor recreation lifestyle that you were exposed to? 

Jack: Well, it's a good question. My dad worked for the Forest Service, not the foreign service.

Okay. 

Kush: Sorry. I, I, I meant the Forest service. 

Jack: Yeah. Right. And he was a research scientist, so he, he didn't work in national parks 'cause that's different than working for the USDA, which is what the forest service is under. But it's a good question. I did grow up going into the woods camping and fishing and hunting and helping my dad on research plots that he had during the summer.

which, you know, introduced me to the out of doors and all those kind of things. But none of it had [00:09:00] anything to do with climbing. But it did give me a long. Basis of appreciation and experience of being outside in the mountains, but none of it had anything to do with technical climbing. And the longer my dad worked for the forest service, the more he got promoted to driving a desk.

And so that changed after, you know, I was, even in junior high. and we moved around a lot. He got transferred and promoted about every three years. So it was, we were bouncing around a lot. So the initial formative years in Montana, both living in Missoula and Bozeman when I was real young, were when that outdoor connection happened through my dad's interest in the outdoors.

Kush: 

Jack. Yeah. So cool. I wanted to connect the dots here. So you went from attending the Watergate, uh, hearings, which [00:10:00] turned you off from pursuing a career in law. 

Speaker 3: Yep. 

Kush: And starting to climb, and at some point climbing captured your imagination. So were you now climbing full-time? Was there something else that you were doing to support yourself?

Jack: Good question. Initially, between when I started in August of 73 and when I came back from Waddington the second time in 77, I basically. Was doing the total dirt bag thing. meaning I didn't have a full-time job. I just pieced things together. whether it was working on ranches, bucking hay, or, pounding nails or doing some other sorts of, part-time work.

but I do remember [00:11:00] in 74 I kept track. I did climb 245 days in 1974, which I wish I could still do that, you know, I did put a lot of time in trying to figure it out. I unfortunately never had any formal instruction, never had any classes or, I didn't have anyone that was a significant mentor initially.

So I wasted a lot of time, Learning things that I could have learned in a much quicker, more efficient manner. but for the first three or four years, I just pieced things together. you know, I remember selling one of my cars so I could go on a trip to Waston, for 400 bucks, you know, and, I how it worked.

You know, 

Kush: Jack, , you started climbing at 19 and by most modern standards you would be considered a late bloomer. You started no prior experience in the mountains, and then maybe just in the next year you ended up spending like the [00:12:00] majority of the year climbing. Right. So what was it about this activity that so captured your imagination?

Jack: it was a simple thing really. And looking back at it, I had had this really significant component of my life being involved in athletics before. And when I dropped out of all that, and I had this void, both physically so to speak, and also mentally in terms of the challenge climbing filled that void.

Simple as that. and, you know, I didn't exactly know everything to start with the course about what the mental aspect of climbing would mean, but initially the physical part, definitely filled that void. And I, uh, I make the joke when I'm given a slideshow sometimes that one of the things I liked about [00:13:00] climbing in those days was it was total anarchy.

you could nobody. Was sitting there telling you what to do or how to do it. There wasn't any guys in, you know, black and white striped shirts running around with whistles, you know, it was, it was great. Really great. so I, that appealed to me also, but that's what climbing filled for me.

It was the void from dropping out of organized athletics 

Kush: and Okay. Why did you drop out of college in the first place? 



Jack: 'cause I got hurt playing football and then I also sucked as being a student. I was just disinterested, Mm-hmm. I never went to class, I just, was it 

Kush: always like that or, uh, was something about like just the classes and maybe that like heady time of a adolescence that turned you off classes.

Jack: I wasn't ever a very good student, um, [00:14:00] even before going to college the first year. I also, it's not a joke, it's actually the truth, but I probably wouldn't have graduated from high school if it hadn't been having to stay eligible to play football. You know, that was my motivation. for whatever reason I've been, I've done okay both professionally and, work-wise and financially, you know, since all that time.

But initially it just wasn't my gig, structure and being told what to do was never, never something I dealt with very well, which is why it was really good that I got a high draft number in Vietnam. 'cause being in the military wouldn't have worked for me either. so I think. That's, that's what happened in terms of just, and I ended up being interested in, once I started climbing, trying to figure out a way to make a living from what even then, wasn't called the outdoor industry or the outdoor business, [00:15:00] but I just thought, somehow I, I should be able to combine my passion with work or something.

You know, it was total pipe dream initially. But I did go back to Oregon and went back to school, changed my major to marketing and business and did, you know, learn some things. but again, I got a opportunity to go on an expedition and I left six weeks before I was gonna graduate and never even went to the registrar's office.

I just left, 



Jack: 'cause ' that's what I wanted to do. And it worked out, I ended up, you know, being a pretty successful sales rep in the outdoor industry for 30 years, working for major brands, and I ended up, guiding for the Exxon Mountain Guides for 40 years and doing a lot of private guiding.

So I have no regrets about how shitty a student I was. It just, wasn't my [00:16:00] thing. 

Kush: Yeah. And maybe that was a good thing, that, maybe a gift in a way that you learned that early on. And you were able to focus your energies into something that did actually perhaps bring out the best of your talents.



Kush: I'm curious, uh, Jack, do you think there were any lessons from that time of timing, full time?

Like some of the things you were accomplishing. And the kind of grit and commitment those summits took. Do you think some of those, uh, lessons helped you succeed in the, uh, world of business? 

Jack: I think so. And I think, to be clear, the first couple years I wasted a lot of time and failed a lot and, you know, spun my wheels and, 



Jack: treaded water at best in terms of advancing my ability.



Jack: 'cause there just wasn't that much information, you know? I mean, you had, there were two books, there was the two volumes of [00:17:00] rock climbing that Royal Robins wrote, basic rock craft and advanced rock crop. Yeah. And the hills. And that was it, you know, once you went those things and you went, oh, okay.

And then off you went, in my case, trying to learn from others. But to answer your question more specifically, I think in the process of failing a lot and wasting time and having epics, you know, that, 

shouldn't have happened, but did, 

Speaker 3: yeah. 

Jack: That learning how to deal with failure and how to also, refocus coming back to something that you didn't succeed on instead of, you know, walking away or blowing it off or beating yourself up.





Jack: that helped both in my climbing and also in how I applied that to business. Later on,

Kush: you. Read those basic books. [00:18:00] And I think one thing about climbing that seems timeless is yes, today they have, yeah. Climate classes and instruction and you know, they have gyms where you can at least learn some basics. Right. But I think that, I think that role of, uh, having a good mentor, especially for bigger objectives in the mountains, I mean, that, that, that role is still feels so essential.

Like those of us who may have found, like I did not have a good mentor either when I started doing, let's say, getting into track climbing and, and alpine climbing. And I also made a lot of mistakes. Some of them could have proved disastrous, but they didn't. And I'm curious, if you did manage to find any early mentors and.

What role they might have had in shaping your, uh, your, your career and again, like your, some of the things that you were able to get done. 

Jack: Well, I did, Fred, [00:19:00] Becky had an influence on Yes, 

Significantly, although, I never really climbed with him again.

'cause, Fred was quite a character and, but he was very smart and, lived to be 96 and spent more time in the mountains and probably anyone in the history of climbing. And they, you know, didn't die in the mountains. So, beyond Fred, though, people in Bozeman that I looked up to that were, uh, another mentor was my friend Pat Palace.

Who's now 87 and still climbing. 

It is so cool that you count Fred, Becky as one of your early mentors. And I, I think that many of us who learned of Fred Becky only more recently, because let's say that biopic on Fred came out 

Speaker 3: Wow. The dirt. And people 

Kush: learned about him and you know, so we don't have, we don't have time to deep dive into Fred's life, but it would be so cool to hear from you.

Maybe, [00:20:00] you know, what made, uh. Spread such a character. Maybe there's a, there's a cool vignette from, 

Jack: well, I will spending 

Kush: time with him. 

Jack: I'm glad you asked this, but I'm gonna editorialize a little bit. I didn't like the dirt bags on that much, because unfortunately, it, mostly showed Fred way past his prime and yes, it did have some historical references to things that he'd done when he was younger.

But I was on a film jury in Spain at a film festival in Bill Bow, and I was the only person that voted against it getting the award because I didn't, this is water under the bridge. My point is, and the answer to your question about Fred is Fred deserved a lot more recognition about what he did.

From a comprehensive standpoint of research and writing and understanding [00:21:00] history besides the thousands of climbs that he did, and that unfortunately didn't come through as well as it might Initially, 

in that film, dirtbag. So what I learned about Fred, you know, he was, he had a master's in urban planning from the University of Washington, and most people didn't know that, the amount of books he wrote that were technical, not just guidebooks, are not something everybody realizes.

He wrote this one book on glaciology that's, it's like a textbook that, you know, a PhD in Glaciology. Oh wow. they've written, oh 

Kush: wow. 

Jack: You know, so besides his tenacity and his drive and his obsession about doing first ascent and climbing, I think, still. There's a lot of people that don't understand how gifted he was and how much better he was than his contemporaries for a [00:22:00] large period of time in the fifties and sixties.

And he would've been much more well known if he hadn't been so cantankerous at times because he got passed over on the 63 Everest Expedition. Not because he wasn't a good enough climber, but because of his personality. And uh, and there's other examples of that too. So I think any student of history about Fred that really wants to know and learn and it's out there, will come away with a completely different, perspective about who Fred was and how smart he was and how, much he accomplished besides just.

What some people know. 

Kush: No, thanks so much for sharing that perspective on Fred. I think many of us, yeah. I think no idea that he was such a prolific writer in subjects, even outside climbing. I think [00:23:00] so. I remember seeing that movie on Fred a couple of years ago. I mean, just the title, you know, it has the word dirt bag in it.

Yeah. And I, if I think back to the movie, you know, the, the images I have of him, is trying to flag a kind of hitchhike 

Speaker 3: right. 

Kush: In his nineties to go rock climbing. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Kush: And you know, that is interesting and cool, but I think that just glosses over all the other things that may have been mentioned in the movie.

But the most vivid image is just that, you know, Fred. That age just trying to pursue climbing with. so maybe, yes, uh, maybe that movie did not capture the extent of his, um, his accomplishments and the life he had and coming back to you. One thing that I find interesting, Jack, is, you have had this long and rich legacy with climbing in Alaska, and I feel your [00:24:00] contemporaries, I think different people made, made a mark in different parts, different mountain ranges in the world, but somehow Alaska, like your name is connected to it.

So what was it about Alaska specifically that so captured your interest and your commitment over the decades? 

Jack: Well, again, it's a good question, but I will just preface my answer by saying I have been to the Himalaya seven times. I have been to Patagonia six or seven for sure, for 

Kush: sure. 

Jack: But the reason I got enthralled and focused on Alaska initially was from a very practical standpoint, it was a time of year that I could get off from work.

'cause I did start actually having a job starting after Watton in 1977. Started working in retail stores. and at that time [00:25:00] there was still all this stuff that hadn't been climb. So it was just, fairly significant resource that it wasn't totally untapped, but it still had a lot of potential to do.

New roots. first a sense of big mountains had already obviously been taken care of by people like Fred, but, uh, and others. But the, uh, the more technical side of, climbing big walls and faces and technical ridges and buttresses and that kind of thing is what, I started looking around and, and I wasn't the only one.

The other guy that was doing it was mug stump and, uh, it was just a few of us initially in the late seventies that started looking at that. So that's what I got excited about, was it, Hey, there's all, you know, the, like this thing I went to in 1979, which I later named Isis face on [00:26:00] Denali, and it's an 8,000 foot face on the southeast flank of Denali.

You know, it's like Himalayan scale. Just not as high as AEL is, but in terms of vertical relief and the amount of climbing involved. So it's things like that, it was pretty exciting. So it became a pretty much a repetitive thing that I would go to Alaska in the spring, 'cause that's the time to go.

You know, I started guiding in the summers. I started, you know, having flexibility in my work. Uh, once I got into, after I went to the West EST in 83, I came back from that and started being a sales rep, for Jim Dini. And that's how I got in the wholesale side of the business. And that's how Jim and I started climbing more together.

And we'd gone to China in 1981, just in the book. But, uh, [00:27:00] it just became a way of. Working and climbing and being able to go on a big one or two trips a year kind of sequence through the years. And Alaska fit perfectly into that for me, besides being, excited about all this stuff that hadn't been climbed.

Speaker 3: Sure. And 

Jack: some of it took two and three times, but you know, eventually I got up some of them

Kush: when I was, uh, researching some of your, uh, your past Jack, I learned that you've had some pretty severe health debacle that you bounced back from. So one of them that I read about was that you got hit by Guion Bar Barre syndrome. 

Jack: Yes. Yep. 

Kush: And, uh, yeah, maybe can. [00:28:00] Tell us, actually, can you tell us what is that and, uh, how did that, affect you and, uh, what was the recovery back to your life like?

Jack: So, Guillain Bere Syndrome is named after two French physicians who discovered about, I don't know, turn of the 19 hundreds. And it's an autoimmune disease of the peripheral nervous system. So not your central nervous, brain, spinal cord, central system, but everything else. And it, since it's an autoimmune and since it's a syndrome, you know, how you get it can vary.

it's not like, it's not a virus, it's not bacterial, it's autoimmune. So, In my case, the symptoms I had. and just to back up in, in summer of 2000, Doug Chabot another friend [00:29:00] from Bozeman, and I went to the ogre to try to do a new route on the ogre and the second ascent of the ogre, which we failed on.

and on the way out in Du I got viral spinal meningitis, which I think in hindsight weakened my immune system. And so five months later I was guiding my friend Tim Forbes on Akron Kala when I got, the first symptoms and came down with Guion bere. So it's, it's a very long, complicated story, but, I was unable to walk after a few days of symptoms getting worse, I was helicoptered out to the road.

But then left to be on my own to try to get myself to the hospital in Mendoza, which I eventually did. Tim came out later on horseback. By the time he found me in the ICU in Mendoza, they still didn't have a diagnosis. [00:30:00] So he chartered a air ambulance Learjet from the States to come get me in Mendoza and fly me back to Jackson Hole, where I barely made it in time.

'cause you, you die from Gion, if it's bad by ascending paralysis where you, by the time it gets up to mid chest, you die of suffocation 'cause your diaphragm's paralyzed and you can't breathe. That's how you die. in my case it was, you know, pretty severe case of it. It varies a lot in terms of severity and symptoms, but.

My doc told me later, you know, maybe another 18, 24 hours, you wouldn't have made it. So I ended up spending 53 days in the hospital in Jackson Hole, three weeks in the ICU. and I had to come back from essentially not being able to do anything. being mostly paralyzed, couldn't even, sit up, much less everything else.

So it was a life changing event. All the other [00:31:00] health challenges that I've had are mosquito wise compared to Gillam Bere, and I've had, a number of other things that weren't trivial, but by comparison. But what I had was support from my wife and my family, and especially in my climbing community, and great doctors and nurses to take care of my medical and physical.



Jack: PT and neurological PT needs were, and and some people might say, I am stubborn also. So I was pretty determined to, to get better. But it's been a life changing event. I'm have residual nerve damage in my feet that, is never gonna go away. So I've had to adapt to, my balance isn't that great.

I don't have any proprioception 'cause the nerves in both of my feet are dead. And I, have to compensate as a result, with my feet. [00:32:00] But most people don't notice it. I notice the difference, but, and that was. 24 years ago now. So I was sort of at my prime in my late forties, you know, in terms of alpine climbing and, it just come back from the yogurt and this whole thing happened.

So it's been a, it's been relatively life-changing event, but not necessarily in a negative way. Just something that happened and you had to adapt and deal with. And so I've been able to go on, you know, I had this grand client from Bozeman that I, before I got sick, I told him, I got him on the Grand Traverse in the Tetons, which is not a trivial, undertaking I trust, you know what that is.

And, uh, so when I got sick, he comes and he comes to the hospital and he goes, well, I'm sorry. You know, I'll just, I'll just get Shabot to take me on the Grand Traverse that. [00:33:00] That's okay. I understand. And I go, well fuck that. I'm, I'm gonna do it. And nine months later I guided him on the Grand Traverse.

I got sick in January and we did the Grand Traverse in August. It was way harder for me than it was for my friend, Dawn, but, we did it. And so things like that is what, you know, got me back on track, you know, was the help and friends and motivation from the collective community, 

Kush: Jack, 53 days in the hospital and what, three weeks in the er?

That sounds, yeah, that sounds really intense. 

Jack: I was And you Three weeks in the ICU, sorry. ICU. Yes. and then the rest of the time was in primary care. Yes. 

Kush: And so the level of recovery that you've had, like how. In the grand scheme of things, how miraculous is that? Like obviously the fact that you [00:34:00] found medical care at just the right time, right?

If you had not found it, if you were not found it for another day or two, sounds like maybe the outcomes would have been a lot worse. So from the illness that you've had to all the other things that you've gone on to do, like how miraculous is that? 

Jack: Well, I guess I'm just, my answer is I'm lucky, I would've preferred that it didn't happen.

Don't get me wrong. But you know, it did. So you deal with it. I learned a lot from it, which I've been able to apply the other aspects of both climbing and the rest of my life. So in some ways there were a lot of, gifts. That came out of it besides, some of the deficits I ended up with physically.

But, you know, I still was able to go back to guiding and [00:35:00] climbing and doing trips and, you know, I did, a number of pretty good trips the next, 13, 14 years. but one of them, that's another health challenge that you may have known about my friend Charlie c and I, his idea was I needed to get back on the horse after Guion bere in 2001.

So we decided to go to this peak in the Logan San Elias range called Mount Augusta. And that didn't end up as well as it might've 'cause I got hit by this rock and got all busted up and. I don't know if you've read anything about that, but that was another significant health challenge. I wrote a long essay in the first issue of Alpinist Magazine about it.

so some people know about it. But anyways, that was another setback. but after that I really got [00:36:00] focused in my sales rep work with Black Diamond and Bask and some other brands between 2003 and when I retired in 2013. And during that time I was also able to do some pretty significant fun expeditions.

One with my friend Jay Smith, who lives, two blocks from here in Castle Valley. he and I went to Alaska in 2009 and. In a 17 day period, we did five route, four of them were new roots. Um, one of 'em was a big route on Mount Huntington and one was a new route on the north face of Mount Thunder.

and we were both 56 at the time, so wasn't so bad for two guys that weren't in their twenties. And you know, I, there's stuff like that that, you know, afterwards, but it did change things. The Gure definitely was a pivot point in terms [00:37:00] of what I could just do physically, you know? 

Kush: Sure. And you said a moment ago something that feels a bit profound, like you talked about how, you know, you got hit by this terrible affliction, but you are not mad at it.

Like obviously you, you wouldn't want it to happen, but it sounds like it also gave you some. May I say even some maturity and perspective, and can you talk about that? Can you talk about how having that and gone through that changed your relationship with just life? I mean, obviously the mountains and the risk and reward, but just how did it change your approach towards words this life that you've been given?

Jack: Well, you know, I think I would've felt differently about Gion Bere or the rock hitting me on, on Augusta if it had been something I had perceived in hindsight as [00:38:00] having made a mistake. But in both cases, especially the gion, it just happened, you know? So trying to assign blame, and therefore being angry about it.

I mean, yeah, I wasn't, trust me and asked people that came and saw me in the hospital. I was not a very nice person for a lot of the time I was in the hospital mainly 'cause I was in pain, uh, all the time. But I wasn't angry about as much. I was, I was very, not disappointed, but I was very aware of how, how much I'd lost, and how to deal with that loss from an, before and after perspective was just something I had to, you know, work through and, understand.

And it made me appreciate things, you know, beyond the climbing and [00:39:00] beyond my friends that, that I'd taken for granted.

So I don't think, I have any other better answer than that. It just was a process that I had to go through and realize that I was lucky to still be alive, A and b, be able to still do most of what I like to do. And also I was able to maybe not have so much of my time sucked up in climbing. Once I recovered, it took two years to really recover, fully.

And I started shifting my emphasis and energy, I should say more into, my work and making good financial decisions for me and our future as a family. And. 

Kush: Did you come back, uh, you know, from the injury and then did you think that, wait a second, climbing as world opening and as rich as it is, there is more to life than just being out in the [00:40:00] mountains and you need to experience more of life on the planet because now you've you've kind of been given a second life.

Jack: Well, I've been given that chance more than once, more than beyond true. Because 'cause of true, the wreck on Augusta a number of other events that, you know, have time to go into. but I think the best answer I have is it wasn't so much that I resented not being able to do what I had in the past as well.

But it was a opportunity to refocus and also be thankful for what I could still do. And so I'm not sure I'm answering the last question that you asked properly, but can you repeat? I 

Kush: know, I think, I think you are, and I think what this thing that you said is again, I think is again, so, 

Jack: so I know what I wanna do, so [00:41:00] I know what I wanna say.

Kush: Okay. 

Jack: A lot of people go through those kind of major traumatic situations in climbing, and they quit. They just like, I'm out. And, you know, I have, I've seen a lot of people I know peripherally do that. I've never had really good friends that I climbed with a lot that did that. But I understand, that that happens.

Uh. Or people decide I'm not gonna, climb while I have kids until they're adults or something. You know, there's all sorts of versions of that. I never had that thought because of what I think is a good answer to your question, which is if you define yourself as a climber, which is what I did, then if you give up climbing, then you have to completely reinvent who you are and how you define yourself.

And in my case, it wasn't being a sales rep that defined me. That was a [00:42:00] vehicle by which I could make money. But I never defined myself as a sales rep. I defined myself as a climber and I, a lot of people thought I made a, fair amount of. Of, income from guiding, and I didn't really, I did a lot of guiding, but that was minuscule.

And so I had some self-identity with being affiliated with XM and my private clients and working there for four years. But again, for me to stopped climbing would have meant to completely, you know, reinvent who I was. And I wasn't interested in that. I wanted to be able to do it at whatever level.

I could still do it at, be enjoyable, go to Europe with my wife Pat, and go sport climbing, you know? I mean, I don't care. it, there's all sorts of ways to entertain yourself and reward yourself through climbing as a focus [00:43:00] beyond just doing hard first to sense and big mountains.

Kush: Yeah. No. And I think, again, such a good point that, that once you've established an identity for yourself, which I think many people don't, but once you have, then I think the ambition to find that identity again, even if it takes a different shape, is so important to just feel alive and focused and wholesome.

And Jack, you've been planning now for, I don't know, 40 plus years, almost 50 years, something like that? 

Jack: I think the math is 52. 

Kush: Oh, 52, got it. Okay. So 52 years, five plus decades. That's so remarkable. I'm curious if you can share with us maybe some of your, uh, any of your routines or habits that have allowed you to keep.

Ing up rock faces and have the, uh, the strength and the vitality. Maybe there are things that you do on a, on a [00:44:00] regular basis that have been vital to your consistency. 

Jack: Well, this may sound like a not serious answer, but one of the things, I'm consistent at his procrastination. I'm not as driven as I used to be about training, and I'm not as driven about just focusing on climbing as I used to be.

I've always been relatively lazy actually. but once I get an objective in mind, then I can become focused, And once I have that, the work. Towards then I can, put the hammer down and, and work towards trying to get in better shape and achieve it. But one of the things, because of all these health problems the last 25 years, especially with, you know, multiple back injuries and whatever, it's a little harder to ramp it up and go through the recovery [00:45:00] process and get back to where we were.

Because at the same time, besides the accumulated abuse, you know, there's this thing called aging. You know, I'm 72 and,I'm aware of that being a, a factor too, but. I think once I get, usually if I have the, uh, time and energy to train for something specifically, then I get, fairly motivated.

But I'm not the kind of person that's super rigid and structured. Just ask anybody that knows me. I just, I'm not, I'm relatively lazy and I wait till the last minute to do just about everything. And there you have it 

Kush: that, I mean, one thing I can understand is that when one does a little bit less volume, it allows us to rest more and, and heal up our body a bit more.

But I don't know if the word. Lazy would quite describe it. Like, [00:46:00] like maybe even given the, the sort of injuries you've had, I'm sure you have to put in some really diligent effort towards rehab and towards making sure that you are in, in good shape because you know, as you get older it's that much harder to just get outta bed and go and, you know, do like a big climb outside.

Jack: Yeah. I was just, the reason I said what I said is 'cause the last year and a half I've had a, pretty significant back issue that I've worked through with PT and meds. And so just this summer, you know, I was able to start rock climbing at a sort of a moderate level compared to the past.

But for almost two years I really didn't do much. 'cause I couldn't, 'cause I was in pain and couldn't really, do what I wanted to do. So part of my answer about, having to ramp it up again, you know, has been this series of different, you know, like five different back injuries through the years.

You know, neon bere getting hit by the Rock on [00:47:00] Augusta. Well, I just, I'm not complaining, but, you know, it, it's, there's been a lot to recover from and I think, you know, I do okay at it. I could do way better. but it's hard to get motivated unless I have a specific goal. And so this summer I had a, a specific goal doing some climbs in the Sierras with my friend Charlie C.

And it worked out, pretty nicely. And, but do I have delusions about, you know, doing a new route on gas room four? not anymore, but I used to, but you know. Have to be somewhat realistic, and it's hard to balance that between, you know, being fatalistic about knowing what you can't do, and also at the same time, you know, coming up with something that would maybe motivate you to try something you haven't done in the future.

So still out there, 

Kush: Jack. another [00:48:00] question I like to ask everybody, which is, what does being an ageless athlete mean to you again, especially given your injuries and your longevity and your, uh, commitment to continue the sport? 

Jack: to be honest, until I got connected with you through Kim Dini, I'd never heard the actual term ageless athlete.

It's a nice literative phrase. I 

Kush: take credit for that term 

Jack: just saying I never heard of it before. So I hadn't spent a lot of time thinking about it in my context of myself. I don't view myself as ageless, first of all. and I'm somewhat of an athlete still compared to, at least the average American.

But, one more serious, you know, way to answer the question was a number of years ago, when I was, was after [00:49:00] all these, you know, major health problems with, uh, Guion and Mount Augusta, uh, David Roberts wrote an article for one of the magazines about people that were, older that were still getting after it and climbing at a fairly high standard.

I don't know if you know about this. It, it was, I think. It was written for climbing, but I'm not sure if it was climbing or rock and ice. At any rate, David interviewed four of us, myself included, Jim Dini, mark Richie, and Steve Swenson, who, mark and Steve, or slightly younger than me, Jim's, 10 years older than I am.

But at the time, the questions and the answers that came outta that article I thought were really germane to what you're trying to do with this topic of your podcast. and to [00:50:00] paraphrase it, you know, a lot of us were just, still psyched and interested in doing things that were new, that had, you know, at a fairly decent technical level, comparative most people our age, And, continuing to alpine climb too. Not just, focus on trying to clip bolts as hard as you could. And that might be, you know, a good thing to take a look at. But I think for me it, was underst that I still wanted to do things, understanding that I wasn't 19 anymore, and trying to figure out what worked within the context of what my opportunities and, and abilities are.

Kush: Sure. can you repeat the name of that article again so I can at least link to it? 

Jack: I can't remember the name of it, but I'm sure you could Google it. It was written by David Roberts. [00:51:00] 

Kush: David Roberts. Got it. And what, what Maxine again, 

Jack: I think it was climbing, but it could have been rock and ice.

Okay. But I'm pretty sure it was one of those two. Sure. I don't think it was Alpinist, but it should come up. 'cause it was published. 

Kush: Yeah. I'll take a, I'll, I'll, I'll sort of look for it sounds Yeah. Like it might hold a lot of wisdom for some of us who are trying to learn from people like you and the others that mentioned.

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Kush: And one other thing I am fascinated by is, uh, is your role in the American at Bank Club, and I think you have been a part of the cutting edge grant process. 

Speaker 3: Yes. 

Kush: That allows mentorship of new and promising climbers. 

Speaker 3: Uh, I'm glad, Jack. So 

Kush: what, yeah, and, and so what responsibility, Jack, do you feel to [00:52:00] pass the torch and how do you decide which projects merit your energy?

Jack: Well, let me give you a little background on the Cutting edge Grant, and I'll answer your question in the process. But, you know, I'm given this talk at the annual gala of the Alpine Club Saturday in Denver, and I'm gonna talk about this actual topic. So, it's timely. So my involvement with the Alpine Club started by just being a member and joining and the Pleistocene.

And more recently though, and especially after I got, Gillam Bere and when I got, injured on Mount Augusta. it just so happened at about the same time, there was a bequest from a felony named Lyman Spitzer, who was a member of the club that, had [00:53:00] a chunk of money come to the Alpine Club, unbeknownst to anyone there.

And out of that, a small chunk of that money, Jim McCarthy and I helped with others form what was called the Spitzer Climbing Grant in those days. And the idea was to focus on giving grants to small alpine style first ascent, cutting edge type trips. And over time, that then morphed into now being called the Cutting Edge grant.

I've been the chairman of the Cutting Edge grant. The whole time. but we have a committee in terms of your question about selections are made to give grants. I have had, five members for a long time, you know, including myself. Jared [00:54:00] Ogden was on the committee for a long time. Kevin Mahoney is still on the committee.

Nancy Fagan is still on, and so is Kate Rutherford. So the committee looks at the pool of applicants and each year we're only as good as, you know, the pool of applicants that we get. And from there we distill it down to, the top 3, 4, 5, whatever it happens to be, and how much money we have to work with.

Looking at their objectives, looking at their style, looking at their, abilities. And we make a collective decision. It's not just one person making a decision, it's a grant by committee. that's how it's worked and we've been very fortunate the last few years and it, I'll get to the mentorship part of it, but I don't want to forget saying that a lot of the trips we've supported have been, you know, significant [00:55:00] since.

And, um, in 2024 and 20 23, 1 of the grants we gave each of those years won the pla LA Dior. So these people have been able to do fantastic. A sense in part being, aided by a cutting edge grant. I'm on the pla LAD or jury again for the third year in a row. The decisions have been made, but I, I'd have to kill you if I told you what they are right now, 'cause they're gonna wait another 10 days.

But, I think people will be pleased to hear some of the, the new PLA winners this year coming up. The mentorship side of it has been what's been my main motivation, but also my main benefit and what I've enjoyed the most is being able to, connect with these [00:56:00] young guys and gals, And help support what they're doing, but also, you know, be a resource for maybe, some weather forecasting or some information about something that I, had personal knowledge of that might help their trip. You know, things like that. but mainly it's been super fun and cool for me to have this grant through the Alpine Club supported by Black Diamond also the last number of years.

be a mechanism by which I can help promote cutting edge alpinism for American teams, but also for me, I've been able to, you know, be connected with these younger people that are just doing some really cool hard shit. And, you know, sometimes it works out great, sometimes it doesn't work out so great.

Like last year on Chat u with Michael Gardner and Sam Hennessy, that's a tough one in my book, but in [00:57:00] general, that's what the Cutting edge grant is about. That's what it's done, I think, to help promote American Alpinism. And it's also really fun for me to be able to be connected with these younger people who have, you know, they have visions that we didn't have, 34 years ago about what's possible and how to do it.

It's great. It's just this never ending evolution of there's no glass sailing, 

which is 

Kush: incredible. Jack no, incredible. The cutting edge Grant indeed shapes the future of climbing in, in, in different ways and understood that that secrets about that process that cannot be shared. But maybe I can ask you this though, in your broader role as.

A mentor through this pro, through the a, a c, and beyond. Is there a piece of advice you dispense to younger climbers that [00:58:00] they find the most useful? 

Jack: You know, I don't know that I could come up with a specific, sentence or phrase, because it becomes very specific to the individual and the situation, you know?

I think, being able to listen to what they're doing and what they're saying and be both respectful and encouraging about what they're trying to do is, you know, maybe something they like, you know, but I don't specifically. feel like it's mentorship in the classic way of me having to teach people something they don't know.

'cause these people are all better climbers than I am. so there's none of that on the table to, offer, but, you know, some historical perspective [00:59:00] or some wisdom that comes through crime and dealing with adverse situations. Sometimes I think this might be something I can offer, but again, depends on the, on the specific person and situation.

Kush: yeah. Fair enough, fair enough. Jack, moving on to some closing questions. I wanted to ask you something about how you think about your legacy and, uh, when someone someday looks back at your life and climbing, what do they hope? What do you hope they see or feel?

Jack: You know, I'm not sure anyone's ever asked me that before in that particular context. there certainly have been a lot of people dying lately so I have thought about it in the context of what might be said or has been said about some of these other people that, that we know [01:00:00] that we've been going a lot more memorials than weddings lately.

Put it that way. Right. I don't know. I think, you know, if I checked out today, what would I like to, you know, have, be recognized? I think just having, being supportive of other people and their climbing and. Had a little bit of vision about maybe doing some interesting climbs here and there and trying to, you know, give back through the club and the cutting edge grant.

Not just cutting edge grant, but other things, uh, like the climbing grief fund and, you know, the, there's a number of grants that are, just as important for different things through the Alpine Club now than just cutting edge. I don't know, I hope people think I was a nice guy, but I'm pretty sure there's a lot of people who would disagree with [01:01:00] that.

but, you know, my legacy's, probably gonna be more connected You know, the first ascents in Alaska and other places in Pakistan and whatever, from a climbing standpoint. But I think, you know, trying to help support and build the alpine climbing community in a broader sense has been something I would hope I'd be recognize for in a small way, 

Kush: sure. Jack, you have obviously done many things right? again, for the work you have done in climbing and beyond, and also your consistency, longevity. But if you think back, maybe if you go back like a couple of decades, is there something you wish you had? Started doing or incorporated into your life or your belief system that might have [01:02:00] helped you

even more in these goals and the richness of life that you have?

Jack: You know, I don't really look back and have any significant regrets about something I didn't do or didn't add to my life. I mean, I've had plenty of missteps and things I've regret on a personal level, but, but in general I think I've been pretty lucky. And, you know, I could have.

I'll give you an example. I thought, and this was a timing thing, and this is not a regret, but just an example of what I chose to do, that might be part of the answer you're looking for. When I came back from Everest in 83, I didn't have a job. I worked for Axon that summer and made $6,000 the whole summer guiding.

[01:03:00] And that fall I

talked to Jim Dini about becoming a sales rep, that ended up working out. And the reason I did that was the other thing I could have done or thought was maybe a possibility was going to the sponsored athlete side of things, right? Except in those days. It didn't really exist like it exists now much less, like, 10 years, 15 years later in the nineties it really ramped up.

But in the early eighties, the two guys that I knew that were trying to make it as sponsored climbers in the US were John Rosselli and Jeff Lowe. And John was on my West Ridge expedition with me, in 83. And they were, they were barely able to piece it together. And those guys were so much better climbers than me.

I just went, well there's, [01:04:00] there's no hope for this. So I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do this outdoor industry thing and figure out a way to make money and figure out a way to go climbing. so I don't regret. Decision at all. 'cause at the time it just wasn't a viable option. And later on I, I felt good about it because I got to the point where a lot of my friends and people I climbed with were doing that.

But they were more so then than now I think constrained about who they went climbing with, where they went climbing with and when they went climbing. because of how sponsorship worked in say, the nineties. I think it's gotten much better for those people. And I can't speak to it 'cause I never did that.

but yeah, I just, I just wish I'd gotten up a few more things that I,

you [01:05:00] and 

Kush: the rest of us, Jack. 

Jack: Yeah, well, you know it, I'm just answering your question. You know, there. 

Kush: Yeah, 

Jack: there was one climb that got away from me that, uh, it's the only one that I have true regrets about. And, uh, but the rest of it, no, I just, you know, I, I wouldn't really do anything differently.

Kush: which climb is that, Jack? 

Jack: It's the southeast face of Mount Logan. 

Kush: Okay. 

Jack: I went there three times to try it. twice, got 3000 feet up it, and it didn't work out. And a friend of mine, jumbo, one of the GRI boys from Japan, did the route after my attempts He asked me before he went, he said, where do you think the line is?

And I told him, I said, you'll figure it out. And he went [01:06:00] exactly where I would've gone. So there was only one real obvious line on it. So that was cool. I mean, he is a great guy and you know, but that's, just to answer to your question, they wanted to plea P-L-A-D-R for it, so I felt good about having, you know, that vision.

But I, without going into details, I wish it would've worked out differently.

I 

Speaker 3: can't 

Jack: hear you right now.

Yeah, I I, I can't hear anything you're saying, so. 

Kush: Jack. for people listening who are chasing, again, longevity, they're chasing purpose, maybe resilience, which is kind of at the heart of the show.

What single piece of advice would you.

Jack: I think one of the most important things is just to [01:07:00] find something that you're passionate about, whatever that might be. And that passion and the corresponding drive in an initiative that goes along with pursuing that passion is what keeps you young.

Kush: And yes, I mean, I feel like those of us in the world of these sports, we are lucky that we have found, uh, this passion. And I think you said this earlier in your conversation, how, you know, when you have a goal in front of you, let's say it is a climbing trip, then that, that allows you to just train better, that allows you to just put your energies towards your goal and maybe in some ways that has all these other bonus benefits.

So any advice for people who. I don't have a passion. Like I feel like we are living in this country now where, you know, we have this, uh, big mental health crisis. I think we have a lot of issues because people don't [01:08:00] have focus, they don't have a goal. So any advice there for people? 

Jack: well, other than with the risk of sounding flippant, they better find it.

they better try to focus on finding something that they're interested in and passionate about. And I don't care if it's, you know, underwater basket weaving is the old cliche used to go, whatever it is, will matter in terms of your mental health and your physical health. 'cause without that you're just cast a drift in the seal of life, And, uh. That ends up being a situation where things happen to you instead of you making things happen. you know, I don't really, unfortunately, 'cause the community we have both in friends and climbing community, connected individuals, don't have this, you know, sense of, [01:09:00] of being adrift. They do have a, a purpose and a focus and a lot of us are dealing with health issues that make it harder to do what we used to be able to do or have been doing recently, but it's still a cohesive drive because of that focus and climbing to try to move forward.

Kush: Jack, maybe just one fun question to end our chat with. What is your favorite go-to meal after a big expedition in the mountains?



Jack: I've actually tried to be better about what I eat, lately, but for a long time, you know, it depended was an expedition or if a big climb in the States [01:10:00] or Canada or whatever in terms of what your options were. Right. but I have this favorite restaurant in Bozeman called the Western Cafe that, it's been there for 70 years and I've been going there since I was a kid.

And the joke used to be I always go there and get a chicken fried steak for breakfast. Yeah. Which I haven't done for quite some time. I'm actually relatively proud of myself in that regard. But actually I, my wife and I like to cook and we travel a lot and we spend a lot of time in Europe. And some of the best food I wanna have after a big trip or a big climb is, clean Mediterranean style cuisine from Italy or France or Spain.

but you know, it used to be you'd go to Kentucky Fried Chicken and get a 15 piece bucket, you know, and celebrate, right? Haven't done that for a while. [01:11:00] usually your protein starved after an expedition, right? And if you're in Pakistan or Nepal or India or whatever, whatever you can eat initially is one thing.

And whatever you can eat after you get to civilizations. Another, but anyway, that's my best answer. Nothing, not one single dish comes to mind anymore.

Kush: Sure. Uh, Jack, it's been amazing having you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for, uh, sharing your time, your wisdom, your stories. 

Jack: Well, thanks for having me. I've enjoyed it. You ask good questions.