#75 The Thinking Climber: What a Philosopher’s Double Life Reveals About Curiosity, Reinvention, and the Long Arc of Mastery

Ageless Athlete - Bill Ramsey
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Kush: ~Uh, you have, uh, planned a lot, you know, places back east and then also places like Smid. Sure. And, uh, but there's always a chance that, you know, we could be, I mean, the beauty of climbing is, you know, we can have climbers of all kinds of, all levels. Yeah. Climbing next to each other. ~

Bill Ramsey: ~I mean, for after 50 years, I've, I've, it's so often that I sort of introduce myself to somebody at the Craig and they're like, well actually Bill, we actually met, you know, 15 years ago.~

~And so I've just given up on that. I'm just, now I approach people and I just say, you know, I think we've met before. Haven't we met before? And I have no idea, of course. 'cause my memory's terrible. But I, but I, I just want to lead with that now. 'cause there's a, the, the default seems to be that it's, there's a fairly high probability that that's the case.~

Kush: ~It's such a good way to, uh, start and get in the good graces of somebody else because everybody likes to be remembered. ~

Bill Ramsey: ~Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, and it's been pretty embarrassing at times to be like, not simply, well, we met this one time at this Craig, but, uh, bill, don't you remember we did the trip together back in 1984, something like, and, and it's like, oh yes, of course, of course.~

~Well, of course people change too, so it's hard to recognize people as well. ~

Kush: ~No, a hundred percent. And, uh, yeah, I mean, one comes across, I mean, the longer one climbs, the more one comes across, uh, just more and more climbers and, and I think we are all recognized, we are all memorable in different ways. So I don't wanna, uh, I don't wanna take up the spotlight, but I started climbing in the southeast in the early two thousands at the Near River Gorge and the red a little bit as well, where.~

~I was honestly the only like brown guy, brown friendly guy climbing around. And I would have all kinds of people come to me and be, Hey man, good to see you again. And you know, and I just gave up on that as well and I was like, yes, great to see you as well. ~

Bill Ramsey: ~Right, exactly. Exactly. Just go with it. That's how I've learned.~

Kush: ~Amazing, amazing. Well, bill, uh, great to have you on the podcast. Um, yeah. Good to here. Certainly. Yeah, no, absolutely. Thank you for making the time. Uh, let's just say you were on my radar for a long time, and then I hung out with our common friend, David Gibbons, uh, a couple months ago, and I was like, oh. And I was, I was passing to Vegas and I was like, oh, shoot, you know, I, I really need to reach out to, uh, bill at some point.~

~Yeah. Fortunately, uh, I was able to convince you to come. Join the show before, uh, your summer season really takes off. And, uh, ~

Bill Ramsey: ~well, I'm quite honored. I've enjoyed many of your episodes in the past. They're really great episodes. ~

Kush: ~Su super cool. Uh, bill, so just quick logic, sorry. Logistics wise, I've, uh, I'm, we are already recording.~

~I, I just hit record because I'm afraid that I will forget and then yeah, we'll, uh, you know, chat for some, some time and then, uh, you know, we should finish before our time is up. And, uh, anything that we talk about here can be edited. So if you need to, you know, get up to use the restroom or, uh, answer the door, uh, absolutely.~

~Uh, feel free to, uh, take a break. Any questions you have for me, bill, before we, uh, jump in? No, ~

Bill Ramsey: ~um, I, I'm really looking forward to this and, um, yeah, just far away. It should be a good conversation. I hope, I mean, I'm a little concerned. I, I started lecturing, I've been lecturing all day and I got a little bit of a cold.~

~I'm a little worried about my voice, but I think it'll hold up. Okay. So I've got some hot tea here and I've got some Gatorade, so hopefully that'll work out. ~

Kush: ~I appreciate it. Yeah, I appreciate you looking out for your voice because that is important for this, uh, audio, audio show. And since you are a listener, you know,~ [00:00:00] I always like to start off with this question, which is, uh, bill, where are you right now and what did you have for breakfast this morning?

Bill Ramsey: So I'm actually in my home office. Um, this is where I do a lot of my work when I'm at home. I have an office on school as well, but I'm here in Las Vegas, um, on the west side of Las Vegas, um, which is closer to the climbing of course. And, uh, I just got done teaching at UNLV today. I was teaching two classes.

And so that's where I'm at right now. And then for breakfast, I. I'm a little bit of an oddity. I, I tend not to, I like to eat when I'm hungry and when I get up in the morning, I'm usually not very hungry. So what I actually had for breakfast was a nice strong cup of coffee. And then a little bit later in the day, I had some granola and, and banana kind of midmorning late morning and something like that.

Um, what happened, one thing that's kind of funny, I, um, when I was, I, I, I had a trailer for a while that I would live in, in the summertime when I was at places like Rifle and, um, the [00:01:00] bed was right next to the stove. And what, what I would do is I would sort of set up my, um, kind of a espresso coffee maker right there on the stove.

So in the morning when I'd wake up, all I had to do is just roll over and turn on the stove and I would get this nice hot cup of coffee without getting out of bed. So then when I, so then when I got home, I'm like, wow, that was actually really a nice little thing in life. So now at my house, in my bedroom, right next to my bed, I have on my bed stand.

A little, um, a little coffee maker that I set up in the morning. So when I wake up, all I have to do, the first thing I do is roll over and turn on the coffee maker, and then I get a nice hot cup of coffee right there while I'm still lying in bed, 

Kush: bill. That's amazing. You know, and, um, I am currently also living in a small space.

I am, I've been traveling in a van the last several months. I, I happen to be in an Airbnb right now, but, uh, I was, I have been living in a van and my routine in some ways is similar. And of [00:02:00] course there are some things about living in a bigger house that one does miss, of course. But I have really started to appreciate the compactness and the convenience of being in that small space because I can, I can, honestly, I can be putting on my pajamas in the morning as I'm heating up the water.

In, in my little kettle as I'm pulling up my computer. Like I can just do so many things without having to move. So it's, yeah, it's making me a little bit lazy. It's 

Bill Ramsey: wonderfully economical and efficient. I, I, I really like that living in a small space because you also get rid of so much clutter that you tend to accumulate all the time, and you just, okay, I'm only gonna use what I actually need, and then you find out it really isn't nearly as much as you think you need.

Kush: Bill, for those of us who may not know who you are, could you please, 

Bill Ramsey: uh, tell us? Sure, sure. So I'm a philosophy professor here at UNLV.

I started climbing at Smith Rock in, I'm [00:03:00] not sure if it was the fall of 76 or the spring of 77, but I started climbing there. And, uh, at the time I climbed mostly with my best friend at the time, a person in mall Watts, who I'm sure many of your listeners know who that is. And we sort of worked up through the grades and, uh, went to college.

And then about the time I graduated from college, I decided I wanted to try to pursue an academic career in philosophy. So I left, uh, central Oregon and went actually to study, get a joint doctorate in philosophy and cognitive science at uc, San Diego. Alan, of course, stayed behind and there's a funny story about that because, um, I think as I was leaving, I thought at that time Smith Rock was climbed out because everybody was climbing cracks.

And I said to Alan, you know, it's just a shame you're gonna waste away here in this no name climbing area where you're just gonna be forgotten. You're such a talented climber. And I often tell people, that's the wrongest I've ever been about, just about anything, um, telling him that Smith was climbed out.

This was in 1982. Um, so anyhow, I went ahead and got my doctorate and uh, did a little [00:04:00] climbing around San Diego. But then towards the end of my dissertation work, I realized I really needed to focus on academia. And then I took my very first job outta graduate school was at the University of Notre Dame in South Bend, Indiana.

And I wasn't climbing as much then. Um, but I. On a trip that I had taken to the New River Gorge, I think this was in maybe 91 or 92, I met Porter Gerard and he started telling me about this area he was developing in Kentucky called the Red River Gorge. And I looked on the map and I realized it wasn't that far away.

And plus I just completely, totally missed climbing. I, I mean, I was enjoying my academic life. I was enjoying teaching at Notre Dame, but I really, really miss climbing. And so I wound up going down there, I think in a weekend sometime, like in 93 or 94. And I was so blown away by the cliffs there and the walls and the hollers and everything that I realized that this is sort of like my dream thing.

And also, you know, by that time there was this new type of climbing called sport climbing. Um, and, [00:05:00] you know, it was like neat, you don't have to place gear and worry about dying. You could just clip these nice bolts. And so I started getting back into it. And, uh, I always tell the story that I, you know, I was going down like maybe once every two months and then.

A little bit of time. I was going down once a month and then the next thing I knew I was going down every single weekend. And I did that consistently probably from around 1994 till I left that area in 2007 and came out to Las Vegas. So the drive was getting to me, it was a seven hour each way drive. And, um, even though I really loved the climbing at the red and was able to get in on some of the development there places like the mother load, um, I eventually wanted to be closer to actual climbing where I could do it during the week.

And I wanted to be closer to, my family was still living in Oregon at the time, so I had been on sabbatical and I'd lived in Las Vegas and I came to realize that Vegas is such a phenomenal zone to live in for climbing. You just have every type of climbing is world class, multi-pitch bouldering, sport climbing that [00:06:00] I realized that if I could somehow move out here, that would be great.

And I talked to the chair of the department and they, as it happened, I had an opening and so I took the job here. I think I came out in 2007. I'm absolutely thrilled with that decision. It was the best decision I could have made. I loved climbing here. I love the climbing community here, and so I'm, I'm still going at it here in Las Vegas.

Um, I guess that's, um, coming up on here almost 20 years later, 18 years later. So that's who I am. Um, the type of philosophy I do, I specialize in how the brain works, uh, how the brain represents information. That's my area of specialization. Um, but I really, really love climbing and, um, I'm still kind of going at it.

I'm, I'm about to be 65 and I'm currently working on a five 14. I'm getting pretty close on. I've done 1 5 14 since I turned 60. Um, and a couple 13 Ds and upper 13. So, yeah, it's, it's still going well. 

Kush: Amazing. Bill, you are a philosopher meets climber [00:07:00] and you're balancing these two worlds that, I've been thinking about this a lot. And for those of us who are not watching this on video, bill, you have more books crammed into your study than, you know, probably like most climbers I know. And they're don't think I've read them all. I haven't read them all yet.

No. I think that's beautiful. Do you actually read physical books outside of work? Are you, are you reading physical books for, for I left? Uh, 

Bill Ramsey: or 

Kush: are you on a, on 

Bill Ramsey: a 

Kush: e-reader, like you have 

Bill Ramsey: not made the news yet. No, I'm, I'm a physical book person. I like to make notes in the margins. I like to underline things.

Um, sometimes the notes I make I need to sensor. If I was to Xerox a page to give to students to read, I need to blank out what I actually said in response to what somebody else is saying. Um, but no, I love physical books. I like taking with me, I like just having that thing in my hand. So I'm a very much a physical book person, 

Kush: but most climbers I meet, I.

At least climbers [00:08:00] at a high level, they are, let's say, dirt bikes. You know, they have made climbing the central focus of their life. Sometimes you also meet desk workers, you know, who have somehow been able to just minimize the amount of work they do to be able to just put everything into their sport. In some ways, you are neither.

You have had this full career as a academician, as a philosopher, as a writer, and you are also training and projecting at a very high level, and you've been doing that for many decades. So here's a, maybe a simple, but not a simple question. How do you balance these two very different worlds? 

Bill Ramsey: To me that having the two different worlds is actually an asset.

I often think that if all I was doing was philosophy, I wouldn't be as happy doing it because I would get somewhat bored [00:09:00] with it, and I would just, it would, it would just be too much of one thing. But I also feel the same way about climbing. Um, I know there are professional climbers and that's what they focus upon, but I think if that was me, I would not really be happy just going climbing all the time.

Um, so I love the, I love having the two worlds that I can go back and forth. One on days when I'm having a hard climbing day and it's going hard. I'm like, well, I'm glad I'm gonna be doing philosophy tomorrow. And then on days when the philosophy's really hard, I'm glad that I'm gonna be going climbing the next day.

And they balance each other out really well. I think. there's a lot of overlap actually. I've noticed when, um, I'm working on a hard climbing project. I love the projecting process. I love this campaign that I do where I'm constantly trying to tweak things and figure things out and adjust things here and come back to things and think about it when I'm away from it, stuff like that.

And frankly, that's very similar to working on a philosophical paper, a philosophical problem where you try different things. Yout, you know, you can tweak things and things over there. I'm a fiddler. I like fiddling [00:10:00] with things. And so they're both involving a great deal of problem solving. And the truth is puzzle solving, problem solving is a lot of fun.

So there's a lot of similarity in terms of engaging in those two different kinds of projects. It's just that one's more physical than the other. But I'm, I'm really happy now. There are times, of course, when I'm getting close on a project and maybe some dimension of work will be really distracting. I'll really have to focus on, maybe I've got a deadline coming up, I've got something writing that's completely unrelated to climbing, and then that makes things a little bit tougher at times.

Um, but you know, I'm still grateful that I have these two kinds of lives. That I can kind of still do at a fairly high level, be a scholar and be an athlete. I think that's a pretty fulfilling existence. And so for me, doing both is actually, is actually beneficial. It helps me. I feel like 

Kush: I can relate in some ways, bill, because I know that, when I'm working hard, I've, I've also had, [00:11:00] an intense, uh, professional career, uh, off and on.

And then when I'm working really hard and I can't go climbing, I am doning hard to go climbing. Mm-hmm. And then when I'm climbing, I, yeah. And I'm actually climbing. I, I feel like it's this, uh, precious commodity that I have to then pour everything into. And then at some point, you know, when you go through a climbing trip or you complete a climbing project, you start like.

Asking for that cerebral, stimulation that you get from going back to work. So I've also found that maybe not, not at the same level as you, that they, they, they can help also provide complimentary levels of fulfillment. Because if one does not send one's project or does not have like what, what, whatever one may have wanted out of a climbing trip, that can be sometimes a little bit, um.

innovating. [00:12:00] Yeah, I, knowing that there's something else at work that could be equally exciting to get back to is great. 

Bill Ramsey: Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. It's kind of nice when the wind's a little bit down. The other one can be up and you can kind of rely on focusing things. And there are different times in my life when I'm more focused on one than the other, but to have them both, I, I mean, again, I think that's why I was initially at least not real happy at Notre Dame because, you know, you're out there in the corn fields and I'm just sort of like, I really, really missed the climbing.

And so now that I have that balance, it, you are absolutely right. They compliment one another. I do think probably a lot of people have that experience with other dimensions of their life. I know a lot of people are climbers have families, and that's something that they find tremendously gratifying and fulfilling.

And so that's where they get that sort of same kind of alternative energy I guess, that compliments their climbing. But, uh, for me it's, it's kind of neat because it involves, uh, really enjoyable activity of puzzle solving in both of them. Um, and it's really fun in climbing 'cause you get a puzzle solved with your body, which is really neat.

Kush: I'm curious, bill, do your [00:13:00] academic co colleagues, uh, do they know you are a beast at the crack? Do they know about this double life you have? 

Bill Ramsey: I think some of them do. I definitely think a lot of the, uh, professional philosophers know to some degree about my climbing exploit. There's actually a group called Philosophers who Climb, and I'm a member of that on Facebook.

And they've maybe seen YouTube videos or something like that, or they've heard some stories or, um, my students, I'm not so sure how much they know. They might, they might see me kind of limp into class sometimes and maybe have some blood on my hands or something like that, and they're like, oh, I wonder what Ramsey was up to last weekend.

but, uh, I think a few of my, I think colleagues in other places have also had students come up to them and go, do you know this old philosopher named Ramsey who goes rock climbing? Because of course rock climbing is so popular now, it seems like kids at most universities do it. And, uh, I think some of my colleagues are, oh yeah, I know that guy.

So, yeah. Um, so people I think know a little bit about it. 

Kush: Got it. Uh, well, flipping it, does the climbing [00:14:00] community actually get what you do for a living? I mean, they might know you as a philosophy professor, but like I can only imagine maybe some, some hilarious conversations around, uh, the crack or the campfire where people might be like, wait, uh, you teach what again?

Bill Ramsey: Yeah. Um, well first off, everybody confuses philosophy of psychology, so that's the number one. And thankfully I do the philosophy of psychology, so there's a bit of overlap there, but no, no. I mean, there's actually been times when I've been at arrest, like a knee bar rest on a routed rifle, and somebody's asked me some philosophical question and I'll launch into one of my lectures.

Well, in this knee bar or something like that. Uh, I try to explain to people the area of specialization that I work in. And they just usually glaze over. They just, you know, to me it seems sort of obvious 'cause I've, I'm in that rabbit hole and I've gone down the details and I know the, the field. But when I try to explain to people what I do, they're just like, uh, yeah.

Okay. Um, you know, hand me the Gregory, let's go climbing. [00:15:00] So, um, I think that I've had a number of people come to my class. so, uh, different climbers are curious about, I teach a very large introductory class, and number of climbers have been, they wanna check it out. And I'm, I'm always open, anybody who wants can come to my introductory class.

It's a public university. And so I, I remember there was one semester, Jonathan Siegrist and a group of his friends, uh, Neely, came to my class for a number of sessions and heard about free will and determinism. In fact, Jonathan and his buddies were traveling through Europe and I sent them one of my, um, lecture recordings on free will and determinism that they listen to.

So people are really cool. And it's not surprising because in my experience. CL tend to be a pretty intellectual bunch, um, at least the people that get really into it. Um, the ones who enjoy the problem solving process, and many of them are intellectuals themselves, um, doctors, lawyers, um, people working in engineering and things like that.

They're people who like problem solving with their mind. and mathematicians and [00:16:00] physicists. And I, good friend of mine, I just had a birthday dinner with, as a chemist, chemistry professor at UNLV. So, um, people are, you know, climbers tend to be a pretty bright group of individuals and so they kind of get it a little bit and then it's really neat when they do indeed come to my class and we can talk about what I, what I've been talking about a little bit more.

Kush: I love it. Bill. Well, next time I am rolling through Vegas. I love please do to, uh, check out if this introductory class is in session. One last question on this topic before we move on. I promise. Many years ago, I remember. I would recommend it some intro book on philosophy, I think it was called, um, Sophie's Choice.

Right. And I remember reading, it's, it's Sophie's 

Bill Ramsey: World. It's called Sophie's World. Sophie's World, 

Kush: sorry. Yes, yes. So anyway, if somebody listening to this podcast could not come to your classes or watch your YouTube lectures, if they, if you could recommend maybe just a book or two on how to learn about, like, the fundamentals of philosophy is, [00:17:00] is would you have one?

Bill Ramsey: That's a great, that's a great book. It's, it's got a little more of a historical orientation than I have. It's, it's sort of going through some historical figures and what sort of contribution they made. But it's a brilliant, brilliant book. It's really well done. In fact, at Notre Dame, we used to have all the incoming freshmen read that before coming in.

So that's a really, really good book. That's a good recommendation. Um, another book by a philosopher named Tom Nagle. That's a pretty good introduction to some of the major areas. And it's really short. It's called What does it all mean or What it all means. Um, let's see here. It up there. It's something like what it all means or what does it all mean?

And it's by Thomas Nagel and that's actually a pretty good introduction as well. And there's a number of anthologies that are, that are, that are really good. There's one called The Philosophy of the Quest for Truth, and I use that in my introductory class. Um, but it's a customized version 'cause I had 'em take out a bunch of the readings I don't use and put in some readings that I do use.

So there's actually quite a lot of interesting philosophy that's out there. I was just, just this [00:18:00] week teaching Peter Singer. And, uh, a lot of people know him as a major, uh, public philosopher who does really important work in practical ethics. Um, he's really come of the inspiration for the effective altruism, um, movement.

Oh, sure. And I was, and I was teaching his really famous essay called Famine, affluence and Morality, um, about our moral obligations to those in need in more impoverished areas of the world. so yeah, his books are really good. His books are really important. He has a really important book called The Life You Can Save that's actually really well done.

So yeah, there's just all sorts of stuff that's out there. 

Kush: Wonderful. Yeah, I know. I, yeah, I'm gonna go and start looking up all those books and I encourage our listeners to do as well if you are curious about, uh, learning some philosophy. Bill. I don't want to dwell on the past too much, but I. It is important to acknowledge that you have been a foundational figure in the sport.

You know, we just talked about, [00:19:00] uh, your beginnings at Smith Rock. A second ago, you were climbing with Alan Wa during the birth of sport climbing, and Alan is, I think, uh, acknowledged as the father of sport climbing. At least in the US you guys were helping to find what was possible. Looking back now, what are you proudest from the era and.

Let's just start with that. 

Bill Ramsey: Well, I mean, I think Alan now says it periodically that it was my influence or some of my influence to help give him the drive to push himself pretty hard. And I think that was true. He was certainly doing that for me and looking at what he wound up accomplishing. And he deserves all the credit.

Because I had left Smith Rock, I thought it was climbed out. And so I was in graduate school in California in 1983 when he first started drilling things like, um, chain reaction and watts tots and things like that. They were kind of considered now to be some of the very first sport climbs that were done.

So he deserved a lot of that credit [00:20:00] without a doubt. But it was nice to be, have that kind of role and give him some sort of incentive. Um, another really talented climber in Oregon at that time was an individual named Chris Jones, and he and I free climbed, uh, monkey face at that time. So that was the first free ascent of that pinnacle.

Chris did a lot of that work, but, uh, it was great time to be there. It was a completely different era I just was completely sucked in and loved and loved the sport of climbing, even though really at that time, no one was really doing it. There were no climbing gyms. Um, we would go out to Smith Rock even on a busy weekend.

There maybe be two or three or four other climbers. It just, you know, it just wasn't that, it wasn't that popular of a thing to do. But, uh, you know, I I, in so far as I help push Alan at all, um, I'm proud of that because he, of course, in many ways, sort of defined the sport as it's done today and really changed the direction of the sport.

I mean, probably somebody else would've done something similar, but he really was the impetus for a lot of the way in which the sport developed in later [00:21:00] years. So, insofar as I had any kind of role to play in that, I'm, I'm proud of that. 

Kush: Amazing. Is Alan still climbing much? 

Bill Ramsey: Yeah, he goes out to Smith Rock all the time and, uh, he's had problems with his fingers.

They, um, he had this period where he tried to climb every day for an entire year and he just developed really bad arthritic overuse problems. But I do know he goes out on a regular basis and I'm really glad to see him now kind of getting some attention and, and, and getting some love. He goes out there and I think he'd just love to see what people are do up to out there and tell stories about Smith Rock.

So I think there's a good chance if you spend any time at Smith Rock, you're, there's a good chance you're gonna bump into Allen, but I know he is climbing out there. We climbed together, oh, probably two or three years ago when I was out there. I was out there briefly for sabbatical and was doing some climbing at Smith and we climbed together.

So it's great to see him out there and on the rope and, and all that good stuff again. 

Kush: I am guessing this was sometime in the seventies when you guys were first, uh, putting up. Yeah. 

Bill Ramsey: What's interesting is [00:22:00] both of our fathers climbed together and, um, and they, my dad did a lot of first ascents out at Smith Rock, and Alan's dad did a lot of things in the mountains and at Smith, and actually was kind of wild is that Alan and I were born on the same day in the same hospital, and I'm sure our fathers were looking at the maternity ward and asking each other if they thought we would ever climb together.

And sure enough, 16 years later, 17 later, so yeah, that was probably, we started climbing together. It was either the fall of 76 or the spring of 77. I can't quite remember which it was. But, uh, you know, I, we both were completely bit by, um, the climbing obsession and got completely 100% into it and just, just loved it all the time.

And it, and it was a special time to be out there when it was, when it was still pretty empty at Smith Rock. It's not that way now. 

Kush: Well. Yes, you were right there with Alan at the beginnings and, uh, yeah, several decades. Hence. What's [00:23:00] surprised you the most, bill, about how the sport has evolved? If you had to pick one thing 

Bill Ramsey: just to sheer numbers, I mean, it's just insane how popular it's become.

Um, like I said, when, when I started, you know, there were no climbing gyms, there were no climbing holds, there were no fingerboards, there were no campus boards, there were no system walls. All that sort of stuff is new. I guess looking back, I shouldn't be so surprised, quite frankly, because, uh, climbing is, has an advantage in the following sense.

It's one of those sports where to get better at it, you just need to do it a lot. And doing it a lot is really fun. So, I mean, you know, there are some sports like I guess track and field or swimming where training for it is hard work. You know, you gotta do laps in the pool or you gotta go for a long run.

Weightlifting too, maybe certain sports that [00:24:00] require upper body strength, you have to weightlift and that's, that's kind of drudgery. But especially now with the boards that are out there to train for climbing, you can just go have fun trying to do these hard boulder problems for two or three or four hours and it's super, super enjoyable.

And you'd never guess that this qualifies as a workout. And I think what's happened is with the climbing gyms at the advent of climbing gyms. More and more people have come to appreciate that fact that you can get a really good form of exercise and at the same time be doing something that's really interesting and challenging and fun and enjoyable.

And so, in a way, I shouldn't be surprised that it's popularity, but that it, it is still stunning to go to places like Smith now and not be able to park 'cause there's so many people in the park or to go to places like the mother load at the Red River Gorge. Um, you know, when we started climbing at the mother load, we were the only ones there.

And now to see the kind of crowds that are there, that is kind of shocking. Um, but [00:25:00] in a way, as I say, I probably shouldn't find it too terribly surprising because climbing is just such a wonderful activity. It's just such a fun thing to do. 

Kush: Absolutely. And climbing has exploded. I was climbing also at the red.

In, let's say the mid two thousands, you know, the time where you could park right outside Miguel's and start chatting with Miguel and just, you know, throw your tent behind the backyard. And now I guess Miguel's is this institution and there are people out there wearing like a Miguel shirt and they, they don't actually know who Miguel is or, yeah, that representative a to have, you know, some tchotchke from, from the red.

So when I was starting to climb there, bill, I had started hearing about you, and I don't know if it was, uh, from hearsay or maybe, maybe the guidebooks, you know, the early ones. And I, I loved pouring over guidebooks. I, I still do. And another rumor that I heard or read about was [00:26:00] that. Even back then you had, um, figured out, uh, innovative ways to train for your projects because you're working hard.

You were prob, like you said earlier, you were like a weekend or a holiday warrior, and you had managed to get a treadmill installed at Notre Dame. Mm-hmm. And is that, is that correct? Like, were you training on a treadmill in back in those days? Uh, at the, yeah. University. 

Bill Ramsey: Yeah. Um, so I, when I decided to get back into climbing, this is probably 93, 94, I went all in and I bought a house at a large attic so I could build a climbing gym in the attic.

And then I had been visiting Alan in Oregon, and at that time he was still working for Entre uh, America, which was at that time one of the main man, well, they still are one of the main manufacturers of climbing walls and climbing holds and entree had built a, uh, had marketed an actual tread wall and motorized tread wall.

It was called the Rock and Roll [00:27:00] Machine, and there may be a few still floating around, but I, I'd seen this and I was like, oh wow, this is amazing for route training. 'cause you just get insanely pumped on this and you can get a really good workout. And then I went back to South Bend and then a year or two later, one of the health clubs I found out had one of these.

And I would go in, I joined the club, I would go in and I would use it. And eventually one of the managers came up to me and said, you know, you're the only one here using it. I think we're gonna get rid of this thing. And I'm like, okay, can we buy it off you? And they're like, yeah, you can have it for $500 if you take it out.

So I immediately contacted Notre Dame. And we were just starting a climbing club at that time at Notre Dame and they had an old racketball court and that they were gonna build a little climbing gym in. And then right next to the racketball court was the laundry room that they used for the laundry.

There was a famous gym called the Rocky Memorial Gym. It's a people who have gone to Notre Dame, you know what gym I'm talking about? And so they placed this rock and roll machine. We had somebody [00:28:00] fly out from Anthropy and help us take it apart and put it together. And man, once I got ahold of that thing, I was off to the races.

'cause I now in, during the week, I could train power and bouldering in my climbing gym. I had a campus board there. I could Duke on hard power things. And then on Wednesdays I would go into the rock knee and I would train just endurance and power endurance on the t. And to this day, I still use a tread wall.

Um, the local climbing gym here, the refuge, again, it's the same story. I'm the only one who uses it. Maybe two or three other climbers use it. But, uh, I use it for training for route climbing, and I still believe that it's one of the, uh, apparatus or one of the training tools that is wildly underutilized for people who want to climb on, on routes and train for route climbing.

Um, it's the equivalent. I mean, I, I think I remember reading a story one time where a woman won a, won a marathon. Um, she just had a baby. And so all of her training for the marathon was done on a treadmill, [00:29:00] but nonetheless, she could get in shape on the treadmill and go ahead and win an actual marathon.

And, uh, that's exactly how I feel about the treadmill. It's just incredible for training, endurance. And, um, if you set it up properly, I think a lot of people don't know how to set 'em up. But if you set 'em up properly, you'll have maybe four or five routes, which is one rotation. Then you just try to do linkups at different angles and or different speeds and you just, you know, you get progressively harder and you just get ridiculously pumped.

And it's fun because then you go to the climbing gym and you're like, okay, today I'm gonna try to do the red route into the purple route, into the, you know, polka dot route and see if I can get that far without falling off. And so it's, it's a neat thing. It's a little bit more like drudgery. It's not as much fun as, you know, trying to do a bunch of, uh, boulder problems on the tension board or on the moon board or on the kilter board or any of the boards.

Um, but it's still, I feel like, has substantially helped me with my route climbing because it's given me, uh, a little bit more endurance and, and it's kind of enabled me to [00:30:00] learn to climb efficiently and climb and climb well, even when I'm kind of redlining, even when I'm really, really pumped. So I actually think it's, it's quite beneficial.

That's a great 

Kush: point. I remember the training tools from that. Maybe just after the years that you were training. I, I mean, I'm talking about like, you know, 22 odd years ago when I started climbing, and I remember, yeah. Tread walls were not common. However, somehow you would occasionally spot a tread wall at a place that would surprise you.

For example, I remember visiting the Chelsea Pierce gym mm-hmm. In New York again, like 20 odd years ago. And there was this like tread wall sitting in a corner and uh, yeah, nobody was using it because probably, yeah. Like they probably installed it. Uh, the one person who probably knew how to, uh, actually show somebody how to use it was not usually present.

So, and we just sit there and I was like, wow, that this is such a waste, you know? Yeah. 

Bill Ramsey: ~Well this one, this one actually we bought, I, um, so when I moved out here around 2008, 2009, it was a pretty active climbing community and it was growing and I was trying to convince people, you know, these trip bulls are actually really good.~

~We should try to get one. And I went online. I don't know what I did. I think I kind of hacked into eBay and I found one that somebody had been trying to sell and they, somebody supposedly bought it from Denmark or something like that. Well, that's never gonna go through. So I found a way to contact the owner who was living in Tucson, reached out to him.~

~We made an arrangement, we settled on a cost, and then another climber and I flew out. A third climber was a pilot, so he got his tickets to fly out and we disassembled it, put it in a U-Haul, drove it back to Vegas and we had it in another friend's garage, Rob Jenssen's garage. And then, and so everybody pitched in for that and was called Club Tread.~

~Um, and uh, and then we would train over there, but then Rob got a, uh, Tesla, so we had to find another home for it. So we wound up putting it in the climbing gym. So, but I mean, I can't believe how well it's hold up. I mean, there are thousands of miles of, of a scent on it, and it's still functioning and it's kind of incredible because.~

~It should be falling apart a lot more than it is and it's just hanging in there. So it's great. Bill, ~

Kush: let's 

Bill Ramsey: [00:31:00] talk 

Kush: present day. You have another hard project on the radar. Can you tell us what you are working towards and uh, and yeah, maybe what's driving you at, at the stage? 

Bill Ramsey: Yeah. Um, so this is a hard climb up at Mount Charleston at an area called Roberts Roost.

Um, it's an extension of an extension. Um, so one of the most popular, uh, routes up there is a 12 a called Highway Man. And then there's an extension of that, that's 13 that's called highway robbery. And then is the extension of, that's called Wrongdoer and it's 14 a and I've been working it now for a little over a year.

I got really close on it last fall. Um, fell off basically the last move two or three times. And then like my last time up there before the weather turned bad, I figured out a much better sequence to use on the last move. So I kind of kick myself in the butt for not figuring that out beforehand, but now we're having a kind of unusual warm spell here in Vegas.

And so I'm actually getting to climb on it a lot earlier than I thought I would. [00:32:00] And I had a pretty good day yesterday, actually. Um, I made it through kind of a really, really hard section from the ground and, and so it's started to come together already. So I'm happy about that. Um, and there's just, you know, in this area there's just so many routes like that and so many projects to do.

I did a 13 D last year, that's a classic Randy Levitt climb at this place called the Fossil Clay. It's called the Homosapien. It's really, really brilliant. The year before that I did a, uh, uh, it's rated 14 b, but I think talking to Honnold, you know, we both use quite a bit of knee bars on it. It's probably more like 14 a the way I did it.

Um, but that was a really fun climb. That was a really great climb. So, um, yeah, I feel like I'm still able to climb, uh, routes at the upper level, at least, you know, doing some fourteens and, um. It's interesting because, uh, I feel good about being able to climb at that level, but there's definitely a drop off.

And, um, you know, I think when you get to be like towards your mid fifties, late fifties, you're starting to kind of [00:33:00] like, well, I know I'm never gonna get stronger again. I'm not gonna get really stronger, but I just kind of wanna maintain what I have. And then as you get into your early sixties, you're kind of like, uh, there's a bit of diminishment, but I wanna slow down the diminishment.

And that's kind of takes a little bit of psychological adjustment to kind of recognize. 'cause as much of, you know, so much of many people's, uh, willingness to work hard is, do they wanna get stronger? You wanna get a little bit better and to kind of know that you're not gonna get stronger. You kinda gotta reconceptualize what your motivation is.

And sort of for me though, I mean you just, you know, you change the narrative a little bit and now the narrative is okay, I, you know, I'm, I'm, I feel pretty good. I'm trying to climb a five, 14 and 65. Um, that's actually, I should be pretty happy about that. That's an unusual thing. That's, that's kind of rare.

That doesn't happen very often. So now that becomes the motivation instead of this desire to, you know, keep getting better and better. Now the motivation is, well, I wanna do this, something that's a little bit special. Um, [00:34:00] you know, climate at pretty high level at an older age, so that then becomes a drive.

And, um, so yeah, it's, it, it, you just gotta, I've always sort of say that the key to keeping at it is you always call it getting air. You gotta be adaptable, you gotta be innovative, and you gotta be resilient. And, um, you know, in terms of adaptability, there's gonna be change in the sport. You know, 50 years I've been climbing five 12 for five decades.

Six decades actually from the seventies into the twenties and, uh, five 14 for four decades. And you gotta adapt, you gotta change. There's gonna be changes in the equipment, there's gonna be changes in the style of climbing. There's gonna be changing in sort of what counts and what the attitudes are among climbers, at least some changes.

So you gotta be willing to adapt and you gotta be innovative. Um, you gotta make adjustments. One example, I found that as I got older, um, my circulation's not as good, and so I don't really do as well in the [00:35:00] cold. And if a climb is powerful down low and it's cold, um, I completely numb out. And so this climb I was trying up at the ClearLight cave and to some degree, as the climb I was trying yesterday, um, that's an issue.

You know, you can't really climb when you're completely numb. But what I figured out was if you take ice to the cliff, or if there's snow on the ground, you can completely freeze your hands before you get on the climb and then heat them up. Like I put in three or four hand warmers in a chalk bag, and then completely heat them up.

And then you're good to go for like, you know, half an hour, 40 minutes. Um. And so that's just one way in which you have to be innovative, it seems to me, is you gotta change the way you're doing things to adapt to the fact that you're getting older and there's gonna be certain sorts of Hines. And then just, you gotta be resilient.

I mean, I think when I, especially when I got into my late fifties, I just realized that, you know, there's gonna be aches and pains and, um, that's just gonna come with the game and you can whine about it and you can stop [00:36:00] climbing. But no, to me that I'm not gonna take up shuffleboard. So I realize that it's, it's gonna, it's gonna just require getting used to the fact that you gotta be somewhat resilient and you gotta deal with the aches and the pains and do your best to cope.

Um, and, you know, keep a bottle of Advil in your pack at all times. And, uh, and just recognize that that's how the game gets played. Now it's just, it there, I sometimes I see young people and they're, oh, I tweak this. I'm gonna take a week off. This kind of hurt. This feels a little weird. I'm gonna take a couple weeks off.

Well, I mean, if I had that attitude, I'd never go climbing because there's never a time really when something isn't hurting. But to some degree, that's true of all serious athletes. I mean, I think all serious athletes who try to perform at a high level, they've always got something a little bit off.

There's always a little bit something that hurts. And so you just gotta realize that that's just part of it. And, and I think once you kind of come to grips with that, I mean, of course I'm, you know, if you break your leg, you break your leg, you're not saying walk it off, but I mean, you know, there are gonna be these little aches and pains and things are gonna hurt and you're gonna have to deal with it, and you're gonna [00:37:00] have to cope with it.

And, um, there's gonna be other things that make it harder. You're gonna take a lot longer to recover. Um, but the benefits are just amazing. And the fact that I can still kind of be playing this game at this age, I wouldn't trade that for anything. So for me, it's very, very much worth it. You know, you get to go to these amazing locations, these venues are incredible.

You get to hang out with some of the greatest people, the best people who've got really great climbing community here right now. And you just gotta still have a lot of fun. So to me, all the aches and pains and the need to adapt, it's all worth it because it's still a really enjoyable time. But if I can ask, how old are you now?

So I'm 64, but probably, uh, by the time this comes out, I'll be 65 in a few weeks. So I just, just say roughly 65 couple, three weeks. 

Kush: Happy, happy early birthday Bill. Once or Yeah, if an No, I'm sure it's, it's, it's a certainty. Yes. You will climb this five 14 at, uh, Roberts Roost at Mount Charleston. [00:38:00] Will that make you the oldest person to have climbed five 14?

Do you, would you know that? 

Bill Ramsey: Uh, I don't know that actually. I mean, I know Chuck Odette, I know you interviewed him and I know he did one at a pretty old age or older, so I don't know quite when he did his route, but I, that's just the Americans I'm familiar with. I, I feel like when you go to Europe, everybody's climbing five 14, you know, they're, they're, you know.

People's grandparents are climbing five 14. So I don't know what's going on over there. I I don't know of many other people in their sixties right now who are climbing. I mean, if I do this one, I may be one of the few people to climb two of them in their sixties. Um, but, uh, you know, get used to it because quite frankly, uh, the people who are, who are grow up coming up, you know, Steve McClure, um, and Chris Sharma, those guys are gonna be climbing much, much harder in their sixties.

I mean, I could see, uh, McClure climbing 14 d you know, nine A in his sixties. He's just an amazing [00:39:00] climbing machine. And Sharma as well. I, I feel like I'm not that far off my absolute limit. I mean, the hardest I've ever climbed is 14 b. I did a couple of those. I've done seven of those, but I did a couple when I was in my fifties and, um, you know, I'm not that far off of that.

And you got people climbing 15 Cs and 15 Ds nowadays. So I think five 15 in the sixties will be, will become kind of not that uncommon. 

Kush: Certainly Bill. Well, what you are doing is you are pushing the thresholds for this era of what is possible. And I, and you know, you are, today, it feels ludicrous to be able to climb at that level in one sixties, but you are helping normalize the standards so that Yeah.

I mean, well thanks for the rest of us, you know, who are not Sharma's or, or, or Urs Andre. I mean, even if you're not climbing at that level, I think it just gives us hope that we can continue pushing that inevitable decline, you know? Yeah. Where, [00:40:00] where, um, I think I'm, so I think what I'm really, uh, learning here is that two things from you will, which is one, is that, uh, one can continue performing at a, at a, at.

And then at an, at a more advanced age, right? I'm old. 

Bill Ramsey: Come on, just say it. 

Kush: I'm old. Yeah. Forties, fifties, sixties. So, you know, those of us who are either younger or maybe even older, that, you know, we, we can continue to push ourselves, be resilient, uh, you know, come up with like hacks and gyms, you know, like the one that you just, uh, uh, instructed us on, which is like, Hey, if it's too cold, you know, put your, you know, get your hands used to the screaming ies early on by, by doing that.

But then the other thing, which is I think even deeper is helping in your words like reconceptualize. Because I think one thing again that [00:41:00] happens when we get older is, you know, one is not always advancing at that, uh, rapid rate. I dunno about you, but lately I've, uh, been climbing a lot of people in their, uh, early to my twenties actually.

I would say I've done that a lot. The age of those people have stayed the same. It's just that I have gotten older and I've been climbing with, for example, I was in, um, El Alto recently and I climbed with somebody who went up like five letter grades in like two months. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy. And that just seems crazy.

And I think it's, it's difficult to impress upon somebody in the twenties that life is not limitless. And I think what you're helping us, um, learn is that we can just reframe that and anything else, bill on those notes on how one can find joy in one's ability at that moment. Yeah. Not necessarily what the past is or what the future holds.

Bill Ramsey: Well, I mean, I. [00:42:00] First off, I think that to some degree you have to enjoy that process. Like, I love projecting. I, I really enjoy these climbs have so many secrets and so many things they try to hide from us. And trying to sort of unlock all those little Easter egg thick things on the climb that is so enjoyable.

And I don't wanna tell people that, because if I have to explain that to you, you don't get it. I mean, but if you, if you get it, you know what I'm talking about, and that continues, there's no reason for that to stop. A lot of times I think people present a false dichotomy where they're like, okay, I'm either gonna really keep trying really hard, I'm really gonna keep training, or I'm just gonna climb for fun and just climb five nines.

It's like, no, there's all this area in between where you can still be trying pretty hard. You can still be really gratified with the effort. You can still be working to get, you know, to maintain what you have and sometimes maybe get a little bit stronger, but you're not necessarily trying, I mean, listen to your, your interview with Jerry Moffitt, and for him, his motivation was to be the best, be the absolute best.

Well, you're not gonna be that in your sixties. You're not gonna be the best climber, but there's still other ways in which you can push yourself. [00:43:00] And you're only, you know, even if you're not gonna be as good as you were when you were 35, you can enjoy it and drive hard and action, be just as proud as anything you climbed in your 30, in your thirties, or you're even your twenties.

Doing it in your sixties. And so that motivation and that drive all stays the same. It's just that you're kind of like now shifting away from, okay, I'm going to, I'm gonna get much stronger this season. This is gonna be my top season. I'm gonna climb my hardest route ever to something a little bit different.

It was like, okay, now I'm going to try to perform at a pretty high level, which is a bit unusual at this age, and that's really gonna be my goal. And I wanna climb at this level, at this age. And honestly, I suspect, you know, so many of your guests probably know exactly what I'm talking about. Whether it be marathon running or mountain biking or surfing or whatever it is.

It's like, it's still pretty cool to be doing this thing at this level, at this advanced age. And that in itself becomes a real sort of gratify gratifying and fulfilling dimension. I mean, you know, there's all these studies done on, um, Paralympics and, and, [00:44:00] and people who have maybe where they're a world class, I don't know, um, basketball player, but they got in a car wreck, they were paralyzed, and now they're playing, uh, they're in a wheelchair.

They're playing wheelchair basketball. Well studies on people's happiness and their enjoyment of the activity and their gratification, their fulfillment of what they get out of that. Sure. Initially they're bummed because they're in a wheelchair, but then you check with them six months later and like, this is just as much intense and just as fun.

And I'm just as driven as I was when I was not in any way handicapped. And I think that's the way you can view age as well. Yeah, you're gonna be diminished, but you're still gonna be really into your projects and you're gonna be really into trying to do what you can and work with what you have and still trying to accomplish hard stuff.

And um, so yeah, I think that's, that's kind of the main thing. It's interesting you brought up. Um, you know, climbing with people who are so much younger. I do that. Yesterday I was climbing with a really, really strong climber. Andrew Nier up at the, up [00:45:00] at Mount Charleston. He's, he's 29. Um, and I for the most part, love these kids.

I think they're great. Um, they share, I mean, I, you know, I say you gotta adapt 'cause they're into different types of music and they're into different kinds of, but at the end of the day, they're into the same stuff I was into in 1977. They're not that different. They enjoy the process just like I did. And it's fun.

The one thing that's kind of interesting about doing something for so long is, and this is kind of neat in a way, but it's, it's a little bit sad too, is if you sort of think, well, what's the average lifespan of a typical climber who's working pretty hard? Like, what's their climbing career? It's somewhere around 10 or 15 years.

And so when you've been doing it for 50 years, you actually cycle through multiple generations. I mean, it's kind of like what you get in sort of vampire literature where these immortal types cycle through generations after generations after generations. And there's a little bit of something like that.

I mean, I look at the climbing community I [00:46:00] have here now. They're great people. They're super fun to hang out with. Um, they're really motivating. Um, and there's a few of them that were there when I first moved here, but almost all of them are different than the climate community I was hanging out with when I moved here, uh, in like in 2008, 2009, 2010.

And then that climate community score is very different than the climbing community and the people I was hanging out with in the nineties. So you sort of have this weird experience where you get to meet all these great people all the time and it keeps cycling and changing, but you also get a little bit nostalgic as well because you've shared so many experiences with these people who maybe aren't still climbing, they're not still doing it as much.

And, uh, you have all these great memories of these past times with past communities. So that's a little bit of a kind of oddity that that comes with climbing for so long as you cycle through multiple generations of climbing communities. But they're all typically really good people and really fun to hang out with.

Kush: Well, I am four six now, and yeah, I mean, you know, just hearing [00:47:00] you talk gives me some goosebumps because that's abs that's already happening with me. You know, people I was climbing with over the years have changed as Bill. I just recently went and, uh, listened to this, uh, podcast you did on the Nugget Excellent Climbing podcast with Steven Ditt, and at that time I think you were.

About to complete or working on your, your prior 14 a, I think it was the one in Mount Clark, I think perhaps, uh, jumbo. Pumping Hate. Jumbo pumping. I remember you saying that. Something on the lines of that time is running out and you feel that pressure and here you are now, you know, uh, four or five years later and you are still going at it.

A climb that's just as hard takes just as much effort. So in that conversation, was [00:48:00] that, I don't know, was that humility or was that genuinely not being aware of what your superpowers are and how you have continued, I think to push? 

Bill Ramsey: Yeah. I think at that time I was, um, just unsure about what things were gonna be like, and I was a little bit in a vulnerable position.

Because I was, I just, I believe under, I can't remember if he interviewed me before or after I did jumbo pumping it, but I was really suffering, um, from needing a new hip. And, um, so I was about to under, in fact, I did the climb like, you know, a week before surgery. And, um, and so, you know, I talk about being resilient.

Uh, there were many days coming down from the third tier of Clark, which is a big hike where I was kind of almost on my hands and knees part of the way. Um, and, uh, it was, it was pretty tough. And, but, you know, uh, so I was like, I don't know. I mean, if this is really the future, this is not easy. Well, the fact of the [00:49:00] matter is I completely misunderstood.

Just how amazing you can come back from that kind of hip replacement surgery. Um, I had a incredibly skilled climber who's also a five 14 climber, Eric Kubiak, do the hip replacement. And I could not be possibly happier. I mean, the flexibility in the, in the new hip is, is better than the flexibility ever was in the, in the natural hip.

And so I think I was underestimating the extent to which if you work hard at it, if you really work at it, you can still keep going. And, um, and so I, I, I was wrong in that podcast obviously. 'cause I thought, well, you know, five 14, I don't know. But then I think it just, not that long, much later, I was in a party with, uh, various folks and they're like, no, you, you always say that.

You're, you're still gonna be going at it. So they know me better than I know myself. But, uh, you know, that part of being resilient and you're gonna have injuries, you're gonna have to recover from things. You've gotta be patient. I think I heard you interview Lee and Lee mentioned suddenly that [00:50:00] I feel like I've come across, which is the recovery time is so much longer now.

The way I do it, the formula I use is that taking one day rest off is what climbing the next day was in my forties. Taking two days off is what was having one rest day was like, and taking three days off is like, what? Taking two days off used to feel like. So you just gotta add that extra time to recover.

But you know, right now I'm in a state of fitness where I'm, I'm actually pretty close to my, my peak level and I feel pretty good about that. So yeah. Um, it's possible there's a little bit of drop off. Not everything works as well as it used to. sort of an analogy I have is, you know how like I have these, now I have to wear reading glasses and you find out why.

Mm-hmm. Why is that? Well because the little micro muscles in your eye start to stop, stop working. Well just think about that happening all throughout your body and all your joints. The one thing I've noticed is I'm a much slower hiker. And I feel like I'm just charging. And then people just cruise past me and I'm like, oh, I'm, I'm much slower now.

But that's, you know, everything just a [00:51:00] little bit, not working as much, not slowing down, but then you can just train a little harder and do other things to compensate for that. One thing, I think that's a, that's a kind of secret weapon as you get older, is you can actually increase your flexibility. you see these, you know, older yoga masters and what they can do and what they're capable of.

And flexibility is a real critical secret weapon in climbing. So you may not be able to get stronger, but you may be able to increase your flexibility so that when you're on arrest, your hips can get even tighter into the wall. And that's taking 6, 7, 8, 9 pounds off. So that can be really quite substantial.

So just all the different ways in which you can make tweaks and adjustments and adapt and be innovative and, and then I think that you can keep going at a pretty high level. That's, that's the thing that's really, that's really, I'm finding to be quite gratifying. 

Kush: Well, you know, I was hearing you. We're hiking up to the third year of Mylo.

I haven't been there myself, but yeah, the repetition of that, uh, hike, uh, you know, it, uh, it spreads wide. And [00:52:00] you were doing that before major hip surgery, so yeah, that felt like, yeah, it felt both, let's say superhuman and maybe even a little unhinged that you were pushing 

Bill Ramsey: yourself, maybe a little unhinged.

I would've to take a long time to come down. So I'd make sure that there was beer in a cooler for all my partners who could, we do have something to do while they're waiting for me, so they wouldn't leave me there. So that was always, that's another adaptation I would wind up doing. But, uh, yeah. Now after the surgery, I do think that this is something that you're gonna see more climbers needing.

Uh. Climbers because you do so much hip turnout work and splits and things like that, just like, uh, major league catchers and hockey goalies. Um, they're all people sort of prime for hip replacements. And the one thing I, the one advice I'd give to people is I waited too long. I should have had it done sooner than I did, but just know that, uh, if you get it done and you get it done by a good surgeon, especially if you can do an anterior approach, um, you should fully 100% expect to come back on that.

A good friend of mine, James [00:53:00] Lucas, just got his hip replaced and it sounds like he's already, he's already climbing. And so yeah, it's, um, it's something that I would say if you have a need for that, don't put it off. It's, it can really help. 

Kush: Yeah. I, I also was diagnosed with hip dysplasia. You know, it's one of those things I think you're born with.

Yeah. So I have, uh, I have, uh, also like these creaky jangly hips, but I found that, you know, I maybe thanks to this podcast and. Learning from people such as yourself that, you know, one just needs to be motivated and, you know, find the, find the right physio, do all the rehab. And, and maybe a part of it is also mental.

Like, if you believe that you are gonna get weaker and you can't do the hike or can't climb, like you will probably not be, so it's, I think it's become a self-fulfilling prophecy. So I'm, I, I think just having that approach, which is, uh, that, no, you can get past all of those things. You know, you just have to keep, [00:54:00] keep bribes for your hiking and climbing partners.

And then follow up with, you know, mobility in front of the front of the, uh, book or the TV at night to keep one. Limber. Any other, uh, techniques bill that you learned about staying mentally tough through those, through the hip injury? Maybe other setbacks you, you might have had over. 

Bill Ramsey: I mean, I, I just believe that, you know, the people that I know can do it for a long time.

They're the people who don't take themselves too seriously. And, um, even when things are tough and you're grinding it out, you can still sort of laugh at yourself and enjoy the process and get a kick out of it, especially if you're climbing with fun people to climb with. And so that to me is the key thing is just make sure you're still enjoying the process and, um, and, and then everything else just kind of takes care of itself.

I mean, I'm pretty old school in terms of my training. Um, there's [00:55:00] one sort of slogan that's been associated with me called More is more as opposed to more is less, it's more. Um, I, I think that, you know, there's one thing that's also surprising about the modern world in climbing is just the explosion of climbing coaches and trainers and programs and all of this plethora people that are out there.

Who are coming up with training programs for various people, and number one, I find it surprising because for me, I understand why people wanna do that, but I would not enjoy any of that because for me, a good deal of the gratification and satisfaction comes from coming up with my own program, doing the physiological changes I need to do for a particular climb.

Like this climb. I'm trying, I have to tweak how I'm strong. I gotta be strong in a somewhat different way than I was for a climb I was working on in the winter in the wintertime. And changing the nature of the, of the kind of how much long, how [00:56:00] much time I'm gonna be on the rocket. All has to change. But I enjoy that.

I think that's really fun. Coming up with a program for myself that. I can implement and then see how that implementation actually pays off. That's, that's like a good chunk of how much enjoyment I get out of this process so that so many people are farming that out to other people, I find a little bit surprising.

but in general, a lot of people come to me and they're like, well, you know, should I use Tel or should I use Hearst or should I use the lattice quo? And, and I'm like, what I typically say is, I mean, you know, these guys are all working hard to try to figure out what's right. But the reality is that, and I'm sure they would say this as well, these coaches would say this at least at the top end, is that picking the exact right one that's perfectly suitable for you will make a difference of about 1% of your improvement.

And the 99% of your improvement is gonna be your dedication. Mm-hmm. Your commitment to the program, your hard work and your discipline. That's [00:57:00] 99% of it. And so when I train, like I'm gonna train tomorrow because the weather's turning bad here, so I'm gonna train tomorrow and um, on Friday, tomorrow's Thursday, I'm gonna go hard.

And each of those days may be around eight hours of training, seven or eight hours of training or something like that. Um, but then I'll take three days off or four days off. And I have yet to see anything that suggest. Suppose you have a week of training and so you have two options. Let's say you train three days that week, so let's say, um, Sunday, um, Wednesday and Saturday, and then you take two days rest in between.

And each of those days are pretty hard. They're pretty big versus every other day you train, you train four days, but you don't train as hard. Now, I think the vast majority of coaches and trainers would say, oh, the latter program's, the right wing. Do it as much as possible. And I'm like, I. I have yet to see any reason to think that that latter program would be better than the [00:58:00] former program.

And one thing that I found is that because you're older, it takes longer to recover. So since it is taking longer to recover, I'm gonna have bigger training days and just sort of gutting it out and training a little bit longer. And, um, working hard on those days you train, I find that to be beneficial.

But it's tricky because, um, I also think that we tend to overgeneralize, you know, from what we know to everybody. And the thing is that people are unique and people are distinctive. And I recognize that what works for me may well not work, or probably maybe you don't work for most other people. So I wouldn't use a coach because I don't think any of those coaches, they're, they know training, they know physiology, but they don't know my physiology.

And I feel like when it comes to that kind of expertise with my body and what works for me, I'm the expert. And so, um, I'm not sure where I was going with this, but the bottom line is that, I enjoy the process of coming up with my own training regimen and going hard, and then, you know, strategizing a [00:59:00] way that's going to design my body to work on a particular climb, do the different things I need to do, and then making sure I get plenty of rest.

There's no such thing as overtraining in one day over training is always training too much in one week and not giving yourself enough rest to recover. And so make sure as you get older to know that you're gonna need more time off, you're gonna need more time recovery, you need more time resting. Um, but that doesn't mean you can't have really hard and really big training days as well. 

Kush: ~But yeah, I mean,~ your approach is somewhat radical, right? Uh, it's it's different from what we are told about, about training and aging and, and I think what I'm learning from you is, one is that. It starts by having a clear sense of the goal in mind and then some maybe almost working backwards because you, you talked about the training you're doing for this project and how that is [01:00:00] different than the training you're doing or you were doing for your project this past winter.

And I think, I think the needs of that particular, uh, goal informs the plan and structure you put in place. yeah, a lot of us, maybe they don't have, and there's, you know, we all different, we all have different, we all trying to get different things out of our sports.

You know, some people are trying things that are very high, high level, high end. Some people are not. Some people are just trying to stay fit. The other thing I'm learning from you is yes, again, it's remarkable. You are self coached. At, at your level, and I'm guessing maybe, do you think it's also part of the fact that you are indeed, you know, you, you get joy out of the cerebral nature of being able to really get into, are you okay?

Let me ask you this question. Are you a meticulous note notetaker? Yes. Do you write down, do you quantify how you're doing things Yes. Versus [01:01:00] doing things by 

Bill Ramsey: feel? So after this interview, I'm gonna sit down and give the minute by minute finger boarding I'm gonna do in the morning when I'm gonna leave the finger board to go to train on attention board and the kilter board, and then what I'm gonna do right after that.

And it's all gonna be laid out as a list of things that I'm gonna try to accomplish tomorrow. And so, yes, I am very meticulous like that. I'm gonna just like, when I do this, I'm pretending it's not me that's gonna be doing it. It's some, just some person out there that I'm coaching who has to do all these things and they don't like it.

Tough on them, you know? But there's also a part of me that's like, oh, this will be fun to try to see if I can do all this. This will be kind of interesting to see how this goes. And so, it's weird because I think a lot of people find training to be drudgery, and I don't, I find training to be a kind of enjoyable way to spend the day, and you're trying to get personal best and you're trying to see what you can do in these different sections.

And I mean, it's not like doing laps in the pool. Come on. I mean, it's, it's having a good time on the moon [01:02:00] board or having a good time on the kilter board. That's fun. Even finger boarding. It's like, okay, you're only hanging, you're really only trying for seven seconds or eight seconds and you know, they get a little bit of a rest.

So in terms of the unpleasantness that we normally associate with training, I. I don't really experience that when it comes to climbing training. And I think it's, it's all kind of a fun way to, to spend your day, actually. And so, yeah, it's, it's actually quite enjoyable to come up with that kind of strategy.

And then I'm kind of motivated, I'm like, oh, this will be interesting to see if I can implement this. Um, whereas I think a lot of other people just like, just tell me what to do. See, the thing is, I think when you're just like, oh, just tell me what to do. You don't own it in the way that I own my training program.

And it's like, oh, I wanna see how this unfolds. I wanna see how this works. I'm really kind of curious about this. Whereas you're just, oh God, this is the, this is the program that's so and so handed down and this is gonna be so hard and it's gonna be so hard. It's less motivating, it seems to me. 'cause it's more like work, like a work schedule.

Whereas for me it's like, oh, I'm gonna try to do this. I'm gonna try to do this. This would be [01:03:00] interesting to see if this goes, so, 

Kush: yeah. Well, I mean, I've always maintained build that any. Degree of, um, of competence I've achieved at the couple of sports I love, uh, rock climbing and surfing have, have been because I've, I've loved the process, I've loved the training.

I've, for me, I'm not a swimmer, so it's, yeah, the idea of swimming laps in the pool or the idea of going to a gym and just lifting weights endlessly, like I just can't get myself motivated. But yes, when I was training for climbing a lot, like just being by myself and, uh, getting on the campus board or just like, uh, doing hangs, I mean, I found that really gratifying.

Again, just everybody's program is different, but just to, uh, just to behoove us, could you maybe just quickly walk us through Bill of what kind of structure do you have in place? Because I feel like this is such a, such a moment. Yeah, to be talking to you because you are working towards this goal. So what is your, uh, training [01:04:00] like now?

Bill Ramsey: So there's a core workout. So, so one thing that I do that's unusual is I train every day, including I train in the mornings a little bit, even on the days I try to have performance days. So even when I'm gonna get close on this climb, I'll have a, I'll have a good three or 4, 2, 3 hours in that morning to train.

And here's my thinking. when you're working a project, and this is especially too when you're traveling, one of the concerns is that you do get stronger on the project, but you kinda lose your overall fitness. You lose your overall finger strength. you know, I thought at one time I thought, well, you should go climbing fresh.

And then after you're done climbing, you should train a little bit afterwards to try to maintain your finger strength and stuff like that. And the problem with that is that a lot of times when you're done climbing, you're kind of beat up and you'll get, decide to go get dinner with friends and it's in the evening, it's tougher.

So what I've started doing instead, since all my projects are locally, is I'll get up early on the day, I'm gonna go climbing and I'll ease into the day. And that means right off the bat a fingerboard session. I have my own kind of handmade fingerboard that I'd like. It's very comfortable, very pleasant.

It's about 13 millimeter [01:05:00] rounded edge and I'll hang, you know, just 10 seconds off of it and I'll come back and I'll hang for 30 seconds off of it. And then I'll hang off of a smaller edge for 30 seconds and I'll add 35 pounds and I'll go stretch for a bit, come back eight minutes later and I'll hang 50 pounds off my harness.

And then I'll come back and I'll hang 75 pounds off. Eventually I'll get up to like 90 pounds and then I'll do a little kind of mini max hang session where I'm hanging like with 90 pounds added for seven seconds and then resting like about 80 seconds or something like that. I'm try to do that four or five times.

And what that does is it kind of at least enables me to maintain some core basic finger strength, even when I'm projecting something and I'm not really in a training mode. And I'll also do some other things as well on, on a climbing day, like I have replicated one of the cruxes on this climb in my attic or not my attic in my garage.

And I'll do that a few times maybe with a weight belt on or something like that, just kind of getting it in my [01:06:00] spine, that sort of movement that's involved. And then maybe I'll do a couple other little things. But by the time I get to the cliff, I've already been kind of going at it and I've gotten to my max levels, already in the morning.

And now you might say, well, doesn't that deplete you? And then maybe it does, maybe it depletes me like six, 7% or 5% or something like that. But I'm still making progress. And I think in the last 10 years, every hard climb I've done, I've done that in the morning. So you're able to maintain your basic strength.

Even while you're going through a projecting process and you're still getting the project done, you're still gonna be making progress on the project. Now tomorrow's gonna be more of a sort of serious training day, so I'll do that for like a open hand. I'll do something similar for a half crimp. I've got a small edge because this climb I'm trying to do has very tiny edges, so I'll do it like on an eight millimeter or six millimeter.

Not that much weight of course, but just kind of building some of the popup in my fingertips. That's one of the ways I've changed my training now is hang off of much smaller edges because this route has much smaller [01:07:00] edges. I'll do the cruxes on the climb. I will hang off of a sloper, I'll hang off of a two finger pocket and basically have a pretty robust, uh, finger boarding routine.

And then probably around noon or one o'clock, um, I'll wrap that up and I'll head over to, um, like tomorrow. Alex Honnold has a really impressive little home climbing gym with a Penton board and a K board, so I'll probably head over there. Um, and, uh, and do some training and just do some bouldering for two or three hours.

And then maybe I'll do a little bit after that. Um, maybe I'll do limit board and then maybe I'll do four by fours. And then, um, the next day I'll get up, do a little bit of warmup, finger boarding again, and then I'll go to the gym and get on the treadmill. And the people like see me at the gym. I'm sure they're like, why is this guy always on the treadmill?

Well, it's because I'm doing all my bouldering in other places. But in any event, I'm on the treadmill and I'll be on there for probably three or four hours trying different linkups, trying to arc a little bit because the climb I'm trying to do is, is like, is it's, it's 50 meters long. It's really long. So [01:08:00] you're climbing for quite a while, continuously.

So I'll probably do some arcing. I've changed the finger, I changed the. Routes on the tread wall to have much smaller holds now, because I wanna practice that. So I'll do the tread wall at a vertical. Usually I'm doing it at about 20 or 30 degree overhang. So I'll do it on that. 'cause that's getting me more geared up for this unique feature of this climb, this, this vertical slab that I gotta do, which is some of the hardest climbing on it.

So I'll go hard then, and then I'll do some weightlifting afterwards probably. And then I'll take three days off and then I'll probably try to go back up and see how, what kind of progress I can make, um, after a three day rest. So that's what that would entail. Tweaking various aspects of the training to make it more specific for the climb that I'm now trying to do, but also kind of doing things that I'm familiar with and just trying to tax myself in a way that's going to not completely tear me down, but beat me down a little bit so that I may be able to make a slight bump up in my strength by the time I get back to this climb.

Um, and [01:09:00] I'm, you know, like right now, I'm, I'm, I'm just talking about, I'm getting psyched to sit down on with a notepad, start writing out these different exercises that I'm gonna do and what schedule I'm gonna have and how much time I'm gonna give between 'em and stuff like that. So, yeah, I'm actually really kind of looking forward to that.

Kush: Well, thanks for walking us through that. That is certainly, um, uh, I'm a very dense, block of training. And then yes, you have planned it in a way where you get that bit of rest, and I am guessing that it's taken you also some time to arrive at this kind of structure training module. So for, for those of us who don't quite have their own training mapped out, any tips on how they can learn to either work with the coach better or, or even self-coach themselves so they can, they can like kinda.

Help evolve and fine tune their 

Bill Ramsey: own training? [01:10:00] 

Kush: Yeah, 

Bill Ramsey: I mean, number one is ease into the day. Like I spend over an hour easing into the day warming up, like just really gradually building up to where I'm gonna be doing a max hang. And I know a lot of people don't necessarily have that kind of time, but I, and I get up early, I get up like at four 30 and so you got to ease into the day.

I have never been injured from being too tired. All my injuries have always been from not properly warming up. So that's number one is, especially as an older athlete, you wanna warm up gradually and slowly. And number two is, you know, they always say you should work on things you're not good at. But I kind of think there's something to be said for being in that groove where you're familiar with holding things a certain way, you're familiar with certain types of holds, and just sticking to that as your go-to base core exercise that your body understands and you know how it's supposed to feel.

Another thing that's really important, I'm talking about these boards is, [01:11:00] um, a lot of these types of problems are dangerous and especially for, you know, they're no country for old men. So I'll be on that. I'll be on the app and I'll be swiping and I'll look at, oh, look at that. You've gotta catch that hold with your shoulder in a really vulnerable position.

Nope, swipe right. Ooh, look at that one. That gas stone looks kind of dicey. Nope, swipe right. Just keep swiping and not do these problems that are really taxing on your elbows and your shoulders and your fingers. Uh, well, they wanna be taxing, but not in a way that's dangerous. And you can tell by, I mean, these kids are, you know, they're flying everywhere and they're catching things with one finger and they're swinging all over the place, and okay, that's fine for the kids to do, but you know, as you get older.

You wanna be very selective and very specific on the kinds of problems you get on at the gym when or even outside. And you wanna avoid those kinds of things that are gonna put your joints in a really vulnerable position that can cause problems. [01:12:00] So, you know, any kind of like, ah, catching thing really extended with a guest.

No, stay away from that. Find something where it's much more straightforward 'cause you're still gonna get fit, you're still gonna get strong doing that sort of thing. I think that's actually really important. And then again, it's getting good rest, getting good nutrition and taking the time off. You can have a big day.

And I obviously, you know, I think people have said this because I, I have kind of been a bit, a bit of a hoarder with routines. I just like, oh, that sounds good. I'm gonna add that to the schedule. And that's why so often I think my training days are pretty big. Um, and you can do that, you know, just add little things, tweak some little things, add some of those things.

But always, always, always make sure you give yourself sufficient time off after you've had a big day and allow yourself to recover in that way. And I think there's something to be said for icing your fingers and icing your hands that help with a little bit of the swelling. Uh, I think those roller things that you use on your forearms, I forget what they're called, but they're really can be very helpful in breaking up some of that, um, some of the ways in which things can get overly swollen in your arms.

So all those [01:13:00] sorts of tricks are, I think are, are actually pretty helpful, but mostly easy to the day, do things that are safe. Then give yourself plenty of time to recover. And then the usual things like, you know, and some of your other guests talk about, which is getting good sleep, getting good nutrition.

I mean, one thing that's sadly I've really cut out is, um, like I used to have like a pretty hard workout and then have a couple beers and it's like, it's just two. I mean, I still do every now and then, obviously. But I mean, it, it really is damaging. It doesn't, it doesn't, it really does make a difference.

And I feel like I recover better when I don't have, when I abstain from any kind of alcohol ethical training session. So, um, that's, that's kind of sad, but that's how it is. So, but in any event that those are the main things I would recommend. 

Kush: Well, you are allowed to have, uh, a frothy one after, after this podcast.

Maybe. Maybe one, maybe one, maybe one. No thank you. What about other simple things, bill? Like, You [01:14:00] talked about you doing some self massage. Are you, are you regular about like, other kinds of body work? You know, just making sure that, you know, all those little things stay, uh, 

Bill Ramsey: you're not gonna believe this, but I've never actually ever had a sports massage.

I've never had a massage. I, I had somebody buy one for me for my 40th birthday and I, I was working at 14 b at that time called Super Tweak up in, uh, up in Utah. And I told myself, oh, okay, I'll, I'll get one after I climb this climb. And then I, then I did the climb and I, by that time I, I've completely forgot about it and I never wound up getting the sports massage.

So that's obviously I know that's helpful. I know that's beneficial. Seeing physical therapists is ma makes a lot of sense. I haven't really done much of that sort of thing. I do think there's a lot of things that happen that are kind of junk science with the cupping and, you know, the tape and all that sort of stuff.

I don't think the science really shows that that stuff works, but certainly physical therapy and massage, those, those things are actually quite beneficial and I think that makes a lot of sense. So I think people should [01:15:00] definitely look into those things. Um, I know a lot of climbers around here have lately gotten into using the sauna, um, as a way to kind of maybe relax the muscles and recover a little bit better.

I don't, I don't know what the literature shows on that, but that's something people have found quite popular. So yeah, I think keep an open mind and, um, and see what, see what other people are doing and see what makes sense and look at the, look at the science on it and, and see what are the ways in which you can keep pushing pretty hard, but do it in a way that's pretty safe.

Kush: Let's talk about this. Idea of the paint box. Okay. Okay, perfect. Uh, apparently that term is associated with you in some way. So tell us what is that all about? Okay. 

Bill Ramsey: Okay. So, um, so I mean, I think I came up with this kind of as an attitude where I think I was studying stoic philosophy a little bit maybe at the time, but it seemed like in training and like dieting, you're constantly being bombarded [01:16:00] with, oh, here's a way you can get stronger, or here's a way you can lose weight.

And you don't actually have to, you can eat everything you want, or you don't actually have to train, just do this for five minutes and you'll have everything you need and it's, you'll get much, much stronger. And it's all crap, right? I mean, it's all bs. And so a sort of approach that I would like is, is to, no, no, no, you are gonna deal with pain.

You have pain in your life, and you should just accept that. And don't think that you can get by without accepting the amount of, of pain that's actually gonna exist in your life. However, one thing you can engage in is what I call pain reallocation. Okay? So like, say this piece of paper, let's suppose that this piece of paper, this volume represents all the pain in your life, okay?

But there's two different kinds of pain. And imagine that this volume is separated by a divider. And so let's say that on this side is the kind of pain that's associated with, um, hard work, sacrifice, [01:17:00] discipline, um, you know, really, you know, things that you normally know you should be doing, but maybe you're not doing.

And then on this side is a sort of pain associated with dissatisfaction, not achieving your goals, failing in various ways, not being fulfilled. And so the thing that, the way to think about this, I mean, this is just a, this is just a geometric representation. It's something I think we all deep down know is this divider.

It's not gonna reduce the overall amount of pain in your life, but you can gauge in pain, pain, reallocation where this kind of pain, which I think most people want less of the pain associated with failure and not achieving your goals can be reduced. You can move the divide over so that that quantity of pain becomes much, much less.

But the only way that's gonna happen geometrically is if you substantially increase this amount of pain. And that means you have to work harder and have more discipline. So that's what the [01:18:00] pain box is about. ~Um, there's somebody at my door. Can I just go get that real quick and see what's happening? You just pause coming.~

~Sorry about that. There was somebody trying to sell me on the solar, solar panels and, uh, I thought I, I'm getting a pair of shoes sent to me that I'm, that I wanted, and I'm, I was thinking maybe as UPS or something like that, but in any event, no problem.~ So, there's this pain reallocation where you can swap out this kind of suffering for this kind of suffering, but that means there's more hard work involved.

And then if you back off the hard work, of course you will do, there'll be less suffering in that sense and devotion and dedication, but then you're gonna have a much greater volume of the kind of pain associated with not achieving your goals and dissatisfaction. So I just, I kinda came up with that.

'cause I, it, what it does is it helps make very vivid the geometry of how I kind of live my life basically, which is, it's a kind of way of putting no pain, no gain, and only it's like. I realized that, wow, I really do want to have more success and I really do wanna achieve certain goals. But given this sort of geometric representation, I can see that there's a direct inverse relation between that and how much hard work I do.

And so that's what kind of motivated me to come up with the [01:19:00] pain box. 

Kush: No pain, no gain for sure. anybody who's been in the game long enough can likely identify with that. I want to go back Do the, uh, philosophy side for a second. Um, I mean, bill, you're a very thoughtful person.

Is there a philosophical idea or framework that's helped you push through some of that, again, pain or failure or, you talked about, I guess, choices for a second there. Is there something like that that's gonna helped you, uh, frame that and, and I 

Bill Ramsey: mean, 

Kush: I move forward. 

Bill Ramsey: There's maybe my interpretation of stoicism, but I, whenever I talk to somebody who really knows stoicism, they're like, oh, no, no, no.

That's way too much of an oversimplification. And that's kind of, that's kind of a pop philosophy, um, perspective. I, I mean, I don't know. I, I, I do feel like there's a kind of [01:20:00] ideological commitment that I have there that goes all the way back to when I was a little boy. And I know I, my father once told me this, I grew up on a cattle ranch.

But the bottom line is that you's like, you know, you need to accept that nothing comes easy. But if you work hard, it will come. And that's the difference, is working hard. And I think as a kid, I came to appreciate that I wasn't a really terribly good athlete. Um, you know, in most sports it seems like other kids were better, better, just naturally gifted athletes.

But I then came to appreciate that I, I did have a kind of gift where I could outperform other kids just by out cuffing, tougher, being tougher than them, frankly, and working harder and trying harder. and I could do that. That was the one thing I could do. Psychologically I was tougher than them and I could work harder than they were When I was in high school, we had this thing called the Marine Corps Physical Fitness Test.

And it was pretty grueling. I mean, it was, it was, you know, a lot of, uh, think you had to do a hundred situps in two minutes, and then you had to do 60 pushups and pull up were [01:21:00] like 30 and you only had like a few minutes in between each event. Um, and there was no coach or anything, so that's why I first started self-coaching.

That's why I first started figuring out what kind of work I needed to do to actually, do well in this. And it was, it was kind of a, a place of pride in Madris High School because we would always go up against the big Portland schools and we would always win. We would always, we were good at that. And so I took that quite seriously.

And I think the year I, my senior year, I had the highest score in the country for that particular test. Um, and that's when I first really came to appreciate that I like this process of self-coaching. And I also came to appreciate that, you know, regardless of what your natural talents are, I mean, obviously at some level it makes a difference, but it, at this level, it can all be overcome by just hard work and sacrifice.

And, um, and I think, you know, what you see at the top level, at the very Olympic level is it, you have people who understand that, but they also are naturally gifted. And, um, [01:22:00] so they got the, they got the whole package. But, um, you know, even if sort of rank amateurs, you can actually go pretty far by just toughing it out and working hard and sacrifice and, um, and having discipline.

And so that's always been my kind of underlying perspective, my underlying philosophy. 

Kush: No silver bullets too, climbing five 14 in, in your sixties. Well, uh, for sure. Uh, bill, thank you. just a, uh, a few final fun questions. Sure. Before we let you get on to evening, um, if you could gift every climber one mindset shift, what would that be?

Let's say one aging climber.

Bill Ramsey: I mean, the one thing that makes a difference for me is figuring out the dimension of climbing. I. That regardless of your success, you just enjoy the process. [01:23:00] And then focusing on that, just focus on the enjoyment of the process. Because even if you can't achieve your goals, well that is a goal in a sense, is, is enjoying the time that you're doing this.

And it's sort of like what you said about, um, the younger climbers, I don't think they appreciate all the different dimensions of climbing. They don't appreciate always that this isn't gonna last forever. And these venues and these people you're hanging out with are really special and something to be very grateful that you still get the opportunity to participate in this.

So it's be grateful, you know, um, even when it's a hard day and even when you're hurting and even when it's tough, it's still better than sitting home, lying on the couch. And so be grateful that you. I feel like I've been incredibly lucky and that I'm kind of, in some ways I'm kind of still a young man and I'm getting to be a young man for a really long time.

And that is something that I'm extremely grateful [01:24:00] for. It's not a day I'm at, I'm at the cliff, and I don't appreciate that. Here I am and I'm still climbing with some of the best climbers in the country and with these people that are, I'm old enough to be their grandfather basically, and I'm still getting to play this game.

I, I just can't believe that it's just, it's just amazing. And so I think that's one thing that's really important is just, yeah, it's still gonna be tough. You're gonna be pushing hard, you're gonna have some rough days, but overall, just appreciate and be grateful for the opportunity to still be doing this.

Kush: Yes, yes. Uh, yes. A hundred percent. Uh, every day out climbing is, is a gift. Yeah. what's a small habit? That's had an outsized impact on your life in the last few years? 

Bill Ramsey: Uh, being, uh, I mean, I think I'm pretty ritualistic about my climbing and my training and my day at the crag. I have the little rituals I go through.

The first thing I do when I get to the cliff is I stretch [01:25:00] and I, I take up a pad that I stretch on because I feel like, uh, you know, you usually get done a bit of a hike so your muscles are warmed up in your legs. You should be stretching. That's what a real athlete does is they stretch, like watch any athlete during the day, they're stretching all throughout the entire day.

People should be doing that, and that's kind of a habit, but it's also probably a little bit of an OCD expression that I have these sort of habit habitual rituals that I go through, but it also normalizes how the dam goes and, and it kind of gets me, gets me in the right mindset to do something. So I'd say that's a little bit of a hack that I have is kind of being a little bit.

Ritualistic and you know, you, again, you gotta be willing to adapt. You gotta be willing to change things. You gotta be innovative, but it's also good to have a routine. And that routine gives you familiarity. And if you can make that routine, a routine that is also gonna help protect you and keep you safe from doing, you know, getting injured on hard moves, then I think that's a little bit of a hack that's actually quite beneficial.

Kush: I [01:26:00] love having routines because they also provide me a sense of like, uh, comfort and mm-hmm. E even, even, gratification that even if I did not achieve maybe some arbitrary goal out there, I managed to tick off these boxes that give me contentment, 

Bill Ramsey: bill. What? Yeah. I think one other, one other thing I would say is that you, it's good to have this, like every go I give on a project, it's like, okay, what's my agenda for this Go?

And I have like agendas for. The day where it's like, okay, I wanna maybe try to get from here to here, but if that doesn't work out, then I'm gonna have a plan B. I wanna get this kind of a low point. If that doesn't work out, then I wanna try to figure out this truck sequence in this way. And to sort of have a strategy going into the day for, you know, what you're gonna, what your goals are gonna be for that particular day.

And if one goal doesn't work out, then you have a backup goal that you're gonna try to do. And so that also, I think is beneficial, is sort of, and then, you know, I wrote out different, different sorts [01:27:00] of high points that I wanted to get. And then there's stage one, low points and high points and stage two.

And you know, you do it in terms of, wow, you're really starting to get close. When you get into the stage three goals, you're, you're basically right there ready to send, but it's good to name all those goals and have them there, and you start checking them off. As you're working on a long project, you can start seeing 'em.

It's starting to happen. It's starting to get it together. So I think all those little hacks also are quite beneficial. 

Kush: The hacks are so great, like not only to really. Quantify a progress, but also give us that, you know, we, we, we as humans, we are hungry for success. Yeah. So I think that helps, you know, take care of that as well.

Because, yeah, because, because 

Bill Ramsey: you, this activity is, is is soul crushing in many ways. You've, you are failing a bunch, you're mostly failing when you're climbing these routes. So you have to, you have to redefine what success is and uc success and success is always gonna be getting this far on this day and getting to this section on this day.

And [01:28:00] you have to have these tons of mini goals so that you can accomplish the overall goal. And I think that's what makes a, that's what that's gonna make a day where you're not gonna send a fun day, nonetheless, that you walk away from feeling really good about your performance. Love it, bro. What may 

Kush: be one?

Yeah, let me, let me rephrase that. What is the greatest gift you've given somebody in recent memory? 

Bill Ramsey: Oh my God. Um. You get to a certain age and you seem like you're mentoring everybody. And I would say there's so many times when I'm with people who are a little bit younger, who are typically much stronger than me, much more talented than me, but you know, they maybe don't know all the tricks.

I, for example, I was climbing with this kid yesterday who's trying to do a five 15 right next to where I'm trying to climb five 14. And he complained about going numb. So I told him, you know, try this thing with the snow. 

Kush: And, 

Bill Ramsey: and he did it. I mean, he didn't send, but he didn't go numb either. So [01:29:00] those little life hacks and those little things that you found over your climbing career, you can pass along.

And, uh, you know, I'm a teacher at heart. I, I love teaching. I really enjoy that. I loved it almost as much as climbing. And so when I can combine my teaching with climbing and, and try to help people get better and help people actually achieve their goals and succeed on a climb, I mean, that's maybe a gift I give to them.

But it's a great gift I give to myself 'cause I feel great then when that happens. 

Kush: And uh, conversely, what may be the greatest gift you have received? 

Bill Ramsey: Oh my God. I mean, there's just so many, frankly. I think the very first time my dad took me climbing was an amazing gift. Just introducing me to this whole activity.

It's always a gift when I hear about somebody doing a route that I put up, um, you know, something maybe at the mother load or something like that. There's a really, really, really good climber, like a top level, and they're like, this is an awesome climb. This is a new climb. You know, thanks for doing that.

Or something like that. [01:30:00] That's a great feeling that have made that kind of a contribution. And I think we should be doing more of that. I know that, you know, putting up a route is really a lot of hard work. It's expensive and you know, I think a lot of kids think, well, this is just like somebody's hired to do this.

Like in the gym. No. Um, this took a tremendous amount of time and energy and sacrifice and money. And when people put up routes, don't whine about it. Don't complain about it. Tell 'em how much you appreciate what they actually did. Because of that kind of work, you're able to have this really good time. so I feel like those are the gifts that I, when I did this climb up at the fossil cave, I wrote a little something on Facebook about Randy and just how much work he put into and the industry that he put into developing places like the Fossil cave and the third tier of Mount Clark and various other spots.

And I've been climbing on his routes for 40 years and it's just all amazing and wonderful and I just think about my debt to somebody like that. It's pretty incredible. So yeah, I feel like anybody who's out there putting up new routes, putting up things that we're gonna play on these [01:31:00] toys that we're gonna be, have a good time on, they're giving the entire climate community this gift and we should really let them know.

We appreciate that. 

Kush: Again, such a good. And a reminder, and it's absolutely the people who are developing the climbs, but also people who do all the work to help protect access, who are doing the stunt work with unsung heroes, building trails, fight, you know, fighting, not fighting, but I should say, uh, making agreements with land owners, uh, clear wave for the rest of us to be able to enjoy this wonderful sport they're giving this gift to.

The 

Bill Ramsey: rest of us could not agree more. I a hundred percent agree. I, I was, I, I haven't been associated with the group, but there's a southern Nevada Climbers Coalition here and people should join their local climbers coalitions and give them money and give them love because they are fighting those battles.

And it's, it's, it's not easy. There's, you know, a lot of times land managers want it makes it easier just to not have climbers in the picture. So we should be doing what we can to support the access fund and all these different [01:32:00] organizations that make it possible for us to go climb. A hundred percent agree.

Kush: ~And, uh, um, yeah. Um. What may be the best use of a hundred dollars in recent memory? ~

Bill Ramsey: ~Oh boy. A hundred dollars. Uh, I was at the cliff. This is kind of funny story. Um, I don't do well in modern climbing shoes. I like my favorite climbing shoes. People see what I'm climbing in. And then they've been resold like five times and they're like, what is your problem?~

~But I have an issue with my toes, and it's a, and when you've been climbing for a long time, you can start to develop some issues with your toes. So the climb, the climbing shoes I actually climb in are black wings and, um, and, but I, all my black wings are out getting resold right now. And so I've been climbing in these five 10 teams and I saw a pair of five 10 shoes at the cliff the other day.~

~And I said, oh, who's the other person here climbing in five 10? This is hilarious. And it was just somebody who had some five tens. But then I said, yeah, yeah, no, my favorite go-to climbing shoes still. The, uh, five 10 Black Wings. I can't believe they. They no longer exist. I gotta get 'em resold 10 times. And there's a visitor there from Pennsylvania, this kid Max Snyder, and he is like, oh, I've got a couple of pair of black wings.~

~And I'm like, what size? And they were perfectly the right size. So I'm just like, oh my God, thank you so much. And he, he offered me some ridiculously low amount. I'm like, no, no. I, I didn't, it wasn't a hundred dollars, but it was like 75 or $80 or something like that. Give me your information. I will Venmo you right now so I can get ahold of those Black Wings as he wasn't climbing in 'em anymore.~

~And I'm like, yeah, send those to me immediately. So that for me was, was the best expenditure of a hundred dollars that I've come. ~

Kush: ~Great story. I have also climbed in those fights in Black Wings. I think that those Velcro, yeah. Think Velcro shoes. Yeah. No, I, I think I enjoyed Wing them and Yes. You know, they, the climbing companies like every other, uh, profit.~

~Focus company, they keep coming up with new models and sometimes there's nothing wrong with the old models or, anyway, it is sad in your favorite shoes. No, I agree. Go off when you find, when ~

Bill Ramsey: ~I find a shoe I really like, I wanna keep using them forever from here on out. That's one thing where I don't adapt.~

~I do not adapt to the new shoes. I want to keep using my old shoes. So I just keep getting 'em resold and you know, I'll probably do this climbing shoes that have been resold five times. ~

Kush: ~Super, ~super. And then, yeah, just, um, final question Bill. Um, you obviously love the access to climbing in Vegas. It is world class, 12 months, a year, so many types of climbing.

What's one other thing about Vegas that you love? 

Bill Ramsey: I love the fact that where I live, I can go 20 minutes in one direction and I'm in a pristine Mojave desert. And you would never, you'd be one of the canyons in Red Rocks or maybe be at Mount Poy and you would never dream you're near a major metropolitan area then.

I can come home and go in 20 minutes the opposite direction, and I'm in this insane urban Disneyland where you can go to these amazing shows and go to these amazing restaurants. And now we have all these sporting events. We have this cool thing called the Sphere. The contrast could not be greater. It's insane, the contrast, but I love that [01:33:00] extreme ends of the spectrum that it offers, and I'm stuck right in between those two worlds.

So that's one thing that I really think is cool about Vegas is just the level of contrast between the Mojave Desert on the one hand, and just how wild that can be and how primitive that can be. And then this crazy place called The Strip, on the other hand that you can ignore it if you want, you know, I mean, you don't have to hang out there, but if you have friends visiting, it's kind of neat to go down there and check out what's going on.

So it's the contrast that I really love. 

Kush: Absolutely. Yes. That contrast does not get old. But it's been a pleasure having you at the show. Thanks for, uh, taking the time. 

Bill Ramsey: Well, thank you so much. This has been really, really enjoyable. This has been really fun. And so, um, I'm looking forward to hearing more of your podcast as well.

I'm really, I really appreciate that you're doing this. I think it's a really important area to, to hear what some of the older athletes are up to and how they're, how they're functioning. So thank you for your podcast. 

Kush: ~Absolutely, bill. No, this has been phenomenal. I feel fortunate that I get to sit down with you and ask you whatever the hell I want.~

~Thanks. So thanks again, uh, for your time. And then, um, I will keep you posted when this is gonna be released and, um, and yeah, I will ask people, you know, uh, the only way I get to, mm. Get to people who I don't know personally, something I, I get, I get lucky and, and people respond to a Facebook message. But, uh, but if not, I, I, so I may ask you at some point, uh, if you would be kind enough to introduce me to, you know, people in the, in the climbing scene that I don't know personally.~

~Yeah. I will just reach out if that's okay with you. ~

Bill Ramsey: ~Yeah, I'll, and I'll post something on my Facebook page about this when it comes out and, uh, yeah, for sure. Definitely. And when you come through Vegas, just let me know and, uh, maybe we can go climbing together. ~

Kush: ~Sure. Yeah. No, I, I, I've been to Thero, I climbed at March, Austin at Roberts Roost.~

~I think I've been there twice. My last time was 2008 or oh nine. Okay. But if you haven't sent your approach by whenever I come, I think you would have been done with done with it, but if not, I'll be happy. I I would love to come. Come and if nothing else, either belay you or cheer you or Well, I've done ~

Bill Ramsey: ~that project.~

~I'll be working on another one. So ~

Kush: ~it's that. There you go. Jerry's on. Yeah. Awesome. That, that, that area's amazing. Yeah. It's some of the best limestone we have. Yeah. With easy access. Thank you, bill. It's been a pleasure. ~

Bill Ramsey: ~It's been really good meeting you, and I hope to see you again down the road. Have a lovely evening, will You too.~

~Thanks a.~