#78 When the Gear Might Not Hold: Cutting-Edge Rock Climbing at 74, Mentorship Across Generations, and Why Boldness and Growth Don’t Have an Age Limit

Ageless Athlete Recording - Rob Matheson
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Kush: [00:00:00] Have you had a chance to visit these perks? 

Rob: Um, no, I haven't had a chance to visit. Um, I've, uh, I've heard a lot about it, but mainly through, uh, skiing. It's supposed to be wonderful powder up there. 

Kush: Uh, yes. Funny, funny you've heard, heard about, uh, it's skiing reputation ahead of, uh, Indian Creek and, uh, some of the famous climbing areas around.

Rob: Yeah. I mean, the only climbing area I've been to in the States was, uh, Yosemite back in 75. Of course. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Back in the day. 

Kush: Rightly so. Rightly so. Amazing. Um, well, I can't wait to dive a little deeper into some of the clients and the history and maybe some of the travels as [00:01:00] well. 

Rob: Yes. you've got to remember, I'm not famous like some of the other people that you've had on.

You know, I'm, I'm just, um, an ordinary person who has sampled a lot of sports and kept very fit throughout my life. So it's not just climbing. 

Kush: Indeed, indeed, Rob. And you know, it's interesting, uh, well, a lot of people know about you now, but climbing is a funny spur with the exception of maybe one or two people.

There aren't really, there isn't really anybody outside the world of climbing that is known in popular media. I mean, within the world of climbing. Yes. We worship our heroes. Yeah, 

Rob: yeah, yeah. Then you 

Kush: go back to the general public and nobody, so one other thing about, like, I, I try to create this show to inspire the everyday person, the everyday [00:02:00] athlete.

So maybe I might ask you to explain a couple of technical terms. So Yeah, just, uh, 

Rob: yeah, you, you, you'll have to keep prompting me because as you, as you know, as you get older, your memory. Starts to get a bit puddled, so, so well, and you lose, you lose your track of thought and stuff like that. So I'm happy for you to but in at any time and 

Kush: prompt me.

No worries, no worries. Any question you have for me before we roll? 

Rob: No, except, uh, if I say something that, uh, I'm not happy with, I'll, I'll probably tell you. So if I, if I give an inaccuracy, I'll say something that might upset somebody, I'll, I'll tell you. And, uh, we can, we can, uh, edit that. Okay. Although, I know that sometimes you guys like something a bit controversial and spicy in there, [00:03:00] you know, to, uh, to maintain the interest with the viewers.

Kush: Uh, I think you're okay. I, I, I feel like your story and the accomplishments are spicy enough without the need of embellishment. Yeah. So fine. Okay. 

Rob: Yeah, sure. 

Kush: Yeah. I always like to start with this question, Rob, which is, where are you right now and what did you have for breakfast this morning?

Rob: Right. Where am I right now in terms of climbing? No, 

Kush: just physically. Where are you located? Oh, 

Rob: physically, physically I'm in, I'm pretty good because I'm not injured. Uh, I have the usual moans and groans. Um, the hips, the knees. [00:04:00] Because they've had a lot of stress over the years. And, um, I exercise those every morning.

Um, I haven't got any finger injuries. Uh, people say that's because I don't pull hard enough and, uh, I've got no arm injuries, no shoulder injuries. Um, my lungs and chest and my heart's good. My blood pressure is on the low side of normal. Um, and for breakfast I had scrambled egg on toast to up my protein levels.

'cause I'm, I am, I am very much aware that muscle wastage requires protein. Um, so for the last, I would say two years, I've been particularly aware of that and my lovely wife has maintained my high protein diet. 

Kush: [00:05:00] Very nice, Rob. And where are we recording this from? Are you at your home? 

Rob: I'm at my home in, in the northwest of England on the southern edge of the lake district overlooking Ham Bay, which is a big bite of a bay outside the west side of the UK opposite the Isle of Ma.

so when I look out the window, I can see right over Markham Bay to black pool and beyond. Um, so I've got a good view out the window. 

Kush: Sounds like a, a, a lovely place to be. And I don't know when the wind's not 

Rob: blowing. 

Kush: Oh, when the wind's, yes. I've, I have heard of the fearon wind, or should I say gales that blow through that?

Yes. Port of the country. 

Rob: Yes, yes. We get, uh, we get a lot of high winds. Uh, usually the prevailing [00:06:00] southwester is, 

Kush: and this is springtime. So is this the windy season or when do you feel the wrath of the wind? The 

Rob: worst? Um, you can never predict it. It's very variable in the UK, as you probably have heard of, but we've had, uh, an incredible spring.

We've hardly had any rain at all. It's been absolutely fantastic. So a lot of trad climbing is getting done in the mountains in the UK this year, which is great. 

Kush: Amazing. Well, I'm not sure, uh, to, to what one can think for the spell of, good weather. ~But, uh, funny question is, so I know that I. Maybe it was a couple of years ago, we had a very hot summer all over the world, including the uk.~

~Yeah. And it got extremely hot. And a lot of the UK does not have air conditioning. Actually. My, my folks lived in, in Leicester for a while and I, I think that was still when the summers were still cool enough. So, yeah. Is that something of an issue where you are, where maybe the seasons are getting a bit more, uh, intense?~

Rob: ~No. Um, you just open the windows. That's our air conditioning. Fair enough. And, uh, we concentrate more on, uh, heat because we use a lot of fuel for heating because it's cold most of the time. And, um, I mean, indoors, I'm really soft. I mean, I even have an electric blanket on the bed at night. It's to get into a warm bed.~

~I am so soft indoors, but outdoors. People would say I'm pretty hardy. Really?~ 

Kush: Rob, I want to start right with the, uh, at the top and, uh, this climb that's had the climbing world buzzing. So you just [00:07:00] repeated the bells. The bells at 74. And from what I know, it is one of the most iconic and, uh, intimidating track lines in the uk.

And not just because of its difficulty. Uh, I believe it was first climbed a while ago, uh, almost five decades ago, and it was credited as England's first E seven. And I think it, it paved the way for an era of, um, very bold and scary routes. So before we go deeper, I would like, I would love your help with something.

So, you know, because even experienced climbers can outside the UK, can struggle to wrap their heads around the British grading system. I've been climbing for over two decades and I, [00:08:00] yeah, I tend to forget. So for listeners who might not know. What does E seven six B actually mean? Right. The, 

Rob: the e grades, um, go from E one and it's open-ended, and at the moment it goes up to E 11, say, or E 12.

And each grade is a subjective judgment of the person who does the climb. So that when you do a first ascent, you'll say, oh, that's probably an E three. Um, and you give it what's called, uh, an English technical grade to give some substance to how hard the climbing is, because the e grade is the overall physical and mental grade.

So for instance, you could have an E seven, like the bells that [00:09:00] is, um. Let's say English six B, and that means that it's, um, that it's not too difficult. But because it's E seven, it means that it's not gonna be a lot of protection. So you could get an E seven six C, which is one grade harder technically, but, uh, E seven it's likely to be better protected.

So it, the E grade and the technical grade tell a story of what that is like to climb in terms of mentally and physically, if you understand what I mean. And you get used to using it. 

Kush: Yes. I, I think I follow the e part of the grid de denotes the, the difficulty of, or the risk factor. Difficulty of [00:10:00] placing protection and the risk factor in America, you know, we are simple people.

We just add this RX to a climb and we say, you know what this is, do it only if you feel bold. And the, the number and the letter after that denotes the, the physical difficulty of the climb. Right. 

Rob: So this case, the number after is the technical difficulty, correct? Correct. It's usually the technical difficulty, how hard it is to work out.

Uh, the move it's called the technical grade. And the E grade is the overall grade. I mean, it came out of extremely severe, which was, um, an old English grade, just extremely severe. And then there was, um, easy, extreme, medium, extreme and hard extreme. So there was always E one, E two, E three. Then we just opened it up to become open-ended.

[00:11:00] So it's gone E three, E four, E five through the seventies and into the eighties, E six, E seven. And then there's been with the, the modern climbers that have been very powerful, but not perhaps a good mind. All of a sudden they seem to jump up from E seven up to E nine. You know, E eight got missed out a little bit here, in my opinion.

And then we're up at E 10 and E 11 and maybe E 12. So yeah. The, the judgment grades. Yeah, 

Kush: because, because, yes, because if, if one was to just follow that linear train of thought, one would think that maybe if E one is very safe. 

Rob: No, E one could, EE one could be E one four C technically, which means that it's not very [00:12:00] safe, but not very hard.

And the reason it's got the e grade is because if you fall off, you could hurt yourself. 

Kush: Okay, let's zero in on the bells of bells, the climb that you just did. What does, in terms of both, uh, technical challenge as well as, as well as the risk, what does e seven six p maybe, how would you explain it to like an everyday person? 

Rob: Okay. The climbing is probably because everybody knows French grades, sport climbing grades.

The, the, the climbing is probably seven a plus stroke seven B, but if you fall off in some places, you could die. If you fall off in other places, you wouldn't [00:13:00] die because you might have a, a sky hook next to you or something like that. But the protection on that E seven, even though it's only French seven A seven a plus, the protection is very marginal.

And it takes a protection expert who's developed that over many years to protect it so that it becomes safer.

Take you, 

Kush: I, okay, so I found, uh, this quote from this person, Mike Owen, who made the third Ascent. I think it came Mike o Yeah. Yeah. It came from the, uh, the Go Guard guidebook, I think back from 1990. And I'm just gonna read this quote out. And the code says A foothold crumbled near the top. And I was looking at a ground fall.

I [00:14:00] thought I was going to die. So scary. The most I have ever been, but well worth it. Okay. So Rob, I would love to hear from you now, what drew you do this particular route with such clear, real hazard and what made you want to accomplish it? 

Rob: I knew that I wouldn't be able to onsite it, it would be too hard for me at, um, at my age back in the day, in the early eighties.

I may have been able to onsite it because it was doing a lot of on sighting then, but I never, I never even thought about doing it. It had such an awesome reputation, um, after John Red had done it in 1980. [00:15:00] Nobody dared go near it except the world class top climbers like Andy Pollett, who six years after the first ascent, I think it was 86, Andy Pollett on sighted it.

And he had the experience of his life. And, um, people who knew him knew that that experience on the bells had almost changed his life. And even, um, later in life, he always referred back to the bells to say that it was probably the closest he'd been to death in his climbing career. But as you probably know, there's a massive difference between onsite and Head Point.

So I knew I was gonna head point this route, but first of all, I just went down on my own one afternoon, traveled down from the Lake District, four hours down the motorway. Threw the rope down and had a look at it to see if there was any [00:16:00] protection to see if it was a goer in my mind. And first time it went down, it certainly wasn't.

There was no way I would go on that full stop and then it eats away at you. So a couple of weeks later, I goes down again and I had a, a good luck with more open eyes and I thought that I could get a lot of what I call retreat protection in. So I was always gonna have something within a couple of meters that if I got into trouble, I would fail to lower off, not fall off, but I could lower off.

So I broke it down in that way. And then it got complicated because I didn't want to do it with the sling on the peg. I wanted a naked peg. Nothing on it. Because obviously you, you reduce the grade if you have something [00:17:00] hanging on a peg. So I didn't want anything hanging on the peg. And that made things harder because I was gonna have to do the crux with very, very bad protection.

And if I failed to get the peg I was in trouble. So it took a few weeks more to sort that out. So I broke it down in stages. And you, when you're trad climbing, you just look at the rock in front of you. You don't think about what's coming ahead and might Owen's foot all crumbling near the top of the crack.

Otherwise you'd, you know, mentally you wouldn't cope. So you, if you cope, sorry, if you concentrate on the few feet in front of you, you know, you can break down anything. And that's what I did.

Kush: Amazing. Rob. Well, before I forget. I want to, uh, point listeners to your YouTube channel. [00:18:00] Yeah. Where you have a couple of, uh, beautiful detailed videos. 

Rob: Yes. Correct. 

Kush: Breaking down the protection on this route. 

Rob: Yeah. Yeah. 

Kush: And 

Rob: yes. Um, I did that by popular demand. Actually, I wasn't gonna do Did you really? I wasn't gonna do that, but a lot of climbers I was talking to said, bloody hell, you are mentally your age going to do something like that.

What's going on in your head? What, how have you broken this down? And I said, well, I'm not telling you. And then I thought, well, why shouldn't I tell people? Because, you know, I'm trying to drive trad climbing again, trying to, you know, a bit of a renaissance perhaps of trad climbing, uh, get people interested in taking risk.

Because people are good at watching risk and they love watching risk and jeopardy, but they don't like doing it themselves, do they? And [00:19:00] so I'm trying to get people out of the, out of the gyms, right out into the open air and have a go at trad climbing, because it'll get more into the soul. Anyway, that's, that's the diversion.

So yes. On the 

Kush: YouTube channel. Sure. And did you make those videos before or after you did the climb? Oh, 

Rob: everything was before. Okay. I laid, I laid my cards on the table. Okay. Totally. Before I did the route. And that put a lot of pressure on me 

Kush: and Rob. So, yes. So you made those videos to clarify to people Yeah.

That you did not just have a death wish that you were. Quite calculated and planned. 

Rob: Yeah. 

Kush: With this plan that you were attempting. 

Rob: [00:20:00] Yeah. 

Kush: And for listeners who are not so familiar, again with the grades, I think that, difficulty wise, you mentioned this is somewhere in the seven a seven B spectrum, which in American, uh, Yosemite grades equates to, let's say a 12 A or 12 B, . You have also spoken that this was also near your physical limit of climbing. Yeah. 

Rob: Cer certainly, certainly at my on site, certainly on my onsite limit.

Kush: Sure, sure. It's close to your onsite limit, but the differences, so for example, let's say currently that is also my onsite limit, 12 HL. Right. But I can do that and I, I won't always do that, but I will do that when I know that there are these, you know, uh, [00:21:00] shiny strong metal gras. Yeah. Both above me and below me.

Yeah. But the, but the, the landscape just changes completely when you don't have that. You know, that kind of protection, right? Yeah. You are doing something and like you said yourself, 

Rob: so, but I'm used to that. That's me. I'm used to that because I'm not, I'm not a sport climber. I can sport climb, but it doesn't give me the satisfaction that trad climbing does.

So I am used to being in a risk situation, whereas a lot of climbers aren't used to being in a risk situation. So for me, it's not such, uh, a big deal of climbing seven A plus seven B without any protection or with protection that isn't a shiny bolt [00:22:00] because I, I'm used to the marginal protection that I use.

Sure. So it's, you know, it's horses for courses that, that's me in my comfort zone. Listen, I'm not saying I was in my comfort zone and I was doing it because I didn't give the bells the reputation it's got. Mm-hmm. Somebody else has given it that reputation climbers over the decades of giving it that reputation.

Um, and not me. I haven't, you know, I haven't come out and said that this is a death route. 

Kush: Fair. Okay. So I want to also understand this though. Yes, this climb is, is renowned for, its, uh, again, its history and its fearsome location. Uh, fear some, um, uh, reputation, but I think it is not just [00:23:00] that, it is also the setting and the climate itself.

I think that yes, as climbers we attracted to grades and reputation, no doubt. But also the climb itself should be alluring. Like if the same climb was maybe in some dank qua quarry somewhere, it would not maybe be as appealing. So, uh, take us to the climb itself. Rob, what makes this climb such an engaging price?

Rob: It's, it's on a special seacliff, which is called Craig Gga in Wales. Um, and it's very hard white crystalline quartzite rock, um, which is quite brittle and flaky. so that all of the [00:24:00] climbing on it. Is, is in your face. You're not getting great big jugs and you know, and not many ledges to stand on yet, yet it's at you all the time.

And this is a sheer white wall, straight out the sea. and it's a very long, complex pitch. Um, it, it's got two major traverses on it. and, uh, the, the route finding is really complex and that's why it's such a difficult onsite pro uh, proposition because, um, you could go up the wrong tree, you know, you could go up the wrong avenue, the wrong series of holds, and if you do that, it could be curtains.

And that's why it's got such, um, an onsite reputation. So climbers who are climbing French eight A have got that reserve. Climber like me, who is an eight, uh, seven B climber [00:25:00] ain't got that reserve. So for me, I was climbing, as you said before, near, near my limit than the other top climbers that have done it.

Kush: Yes, I, again, I looked at the video and I look at pictures of the climb and Yeah. Blank face. The, the root finding looks devious. Indeed. And I think myself and maybe others, other climbers listening to the show, we have all been in situations over lifetime where you can quest up like a, an expansive rock and run out of holes and sometimes you are lucky and the, the type of rock and the route affords retreat.

On this one, when I was just looking at it, it just seemed like, wow. Yeah, you could end up with like, in some section and [00:26:00] yeah, you would not be able to retreat. So your decision to head point, which is rehearse the climb a little bit before you took off to actually, uh, quote unquote red pointed, uh, yeah, just, uh, makes, just seems so sensible.

Rob, talk to us a little bit about you. You mentioned earlier that you know, you, you have been, you all, this experience in climbing routes of this style where you are doing these scary, scary lines that are close to your physical limits. So talk to us about. How that preparation took place, not just in the imi in [00:27:00] the immediate, uh, uh, in the immediate time before the climb, but just your, your history of climbing.

Like what made you so prepared to be able to attempt, I think, in my mind, something pretty audacious in your seventies? 

Rob: Well, I haven't climbed all my life. I had, uh, eight years off climbing in the eighties. Um, I started climbing in 19, uh, 57 when I was seven years old. ever since then, I've, I've been in the mountains and learning how to climb initially with my dad.

And then my mum came along. So it was a family unit. And then as I grew older, into a teenage years, I started going out with some mates. And by the time I was [00:28:00] 18, I'd done all the hardest routes in the Lake District and I'd done all the hardest routes in Wales as well. 'cause we used to go down to Wales a lot.

So I, I ticked all the, all the routes off in the guidebook and I felt then I had earned the right to do new routes because I, I, I just felt, you know, you've gotta earn the right to do something special and to put a new route up is special. So that's when I started doing new routes. And in 1969 I did my first new route, which was called Paladin in the Lake District, uh, which was probably the.

Well, probably one of the first e threes in the late district. And then, um, E three at that time was quite hard, so I've just worked up through the grades and right through the seventies as well. And in [00:29:00] 1983 I stopped climbing 'cause I lost the motivation. So in 1983, uh, I took up, uh, started playing squash to a, to a high standard.

And I started windsurfing and I went pot hauling. 'cause pot hauling was easy to go to, a high standard because it's only semi-skilled in my, in my opinion. Wait a second. What, what does Potholing Rob? Oh, potholing is, um, going underground, squirming underground into, uh, it's quite a big sport in the uk, um, going through really tight squeezes and in the uk um.

The hardest potholes were say, 18 hours. They were 18 hours to get down to the bottom and back out again. And if you got, if something happened below, below the crux of it, you curtains, they can't get you out. [00:30:00] So it was really committing. So we did, we did a lot of the hardest potholes in the country. Uh, I'm sorry, that sounds horrible.

Kush: Yeah. Yeah. It sounds, sounds the exact opposite of, uh, of, you know, climbing big walls 

Rob: in the majestic open skies. Yes, yes. But it's, but at the end of the day, it's just the same because it's a challenge. Mm-hmm. So getting through a squeeze without getting stuck is a challenge in the same way as doing a hard move on a climb.

yeah. So, yeah. So it's challenging. And I did a lot of skiing and, um, I started climbing again in 1990, sorry, yeah. 1990 after the climbing revolution. So I missed the eighties Totally. And when I came back, I couldn't believe how strong [00:31:00] climbers were. It was unbelievable. And, um, and people were training.

Never trained, never trained in my life until 1990 when I came back. And when I re, when I retired in 2010, I became a full-time athlete and I could train every day. But then of course you got injured. Sure, sure. Because you train too hard, 

Kush: Rob. I can't. Yeah. Fascinating. You left climbing, you came back and picked up all of these different sports.

Then somehow climbing lured you in. Yes. And I want Yes. It's always in your 

Rob: blood. 

Kush: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So I wanna, yeah. I love to say once a climber, like always a climber. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I wanna, I wanna go back into that a little bit, but I feel I, I do need to ask you [00:32:00] about the day you sent the climb. Yeah.

And talk to us about that morning, right? You have put in all of this preparation, you have gone and inspected the route. You have figured out like what type of gear goes where you have head pointed or you have, no, sorry. You have rehearsed the route. So you have put a top rope down and you have rehearsed the moves.

And then before that also you've, you are bringing in all of this. Knowledge and this buildup over the decades, right? Yeah. And you are now standing on the ground. You know, you have your gear on you, you're tied in. What is going through your mind, Rob, as you attempt to set 

Rob: out? Well, [00:33:00] you've got to remember that I went on the route at the end of March 1st to try and lead it.

And I'd arranged for, um, I'd arranged for photographers to come down and videographers to come down and people to hold my rope, which was hard to get 'cause a lot of people didn't wanna hold my rope. Can't understand that really. the, the weather was really cold and really windy. But because I'd basically, I had to stop, I had to stop dancing around my handbag.

I'd laid it all out on the table. I'd arranged all these people to come down, so I felt I had to go for it. So I went for it in really windy conditions where I was getting buffeted around on the crack and I was freezing my hands, I was freezing. It was horrible weather. So that's, so I went for it. Then just to get the, what it's like to get [00:34:00] on the sharp end flavor.

Uh, but I got a bit higher than I thought it would, and I managed just to get the sling over the peg. The wind was blowing the sling all over the place, and if I fell off then I would've been in trouble. But I managed to get it over and then I tried to make the crooks move, but I fell off. Goodness. And an hour later I.

I had another call. 

Kush: Hang on, hang on. So you, you fell off and on this climb, I'm guessing there are different sections, you know, some sections are, are more dangerous than others. Yeah. So this particular place or this fall that you took was perhaps not as, uh, bad? Well, no, 

Rob: it, it was the crux, but it, um, I just managed, I just managed to hang on to [00:35:00] get the sling over the peg.

You know, I said I wasn't having a sling on the peg, so I was having to crank up higher to get the sling over the peg. And it took me about three goals to get it on over the peg and I managed to get it over the peg. The, uh, photographers were shitting themselves. Craig was Craig, my son was on the other side filming.

And he, all he could hear was his heart going, boom, boom, boom, boom. And then, um, yeah, then I exploded off. I fell off. But it was safe to fall off then. 'cause I could push it then to try and do the crux move because it actually got a sling on the peg. Now the pegs all right to fall on if you're underneath it.

'cause it's all rusted and knackered. And I had a sky hook as [00:36:00] well. Mm. Just a bit down to the side of me. So I fell about, probably about 30 feet, 40 feet. 

Kush: Were you, 

Rob: you were above the, above the peg or were you actually below the peg? I was below the peg had reached up. Ah, and I was moving across to it. So it was almost like, like a top 

Kush: rope fall almost.

Yeah. But you still fell like 30 feet. Yeah. Oh, it was just like, like a dynamic ballet and your runners other like Yeah, they, 

Rob: they, yeah. The, uh, the second man was asleep.

Kush: Rob, I wanna actually, um, I'm glad you mentioned the peg. I wanna ask you about this for a second. So, a peg is not quite a bolt, right? It is this thing that has been, you know, into the crack. Uh, how old was the peg by the way? That was in the [00:37:00] 19 

Rob: 9, 19 97 I think this one was. Okay. So there's on a 

Kush: C Exactly.

So on, on a ccle, you have this little bit of metal, which has been pounded in. And just to give listeners context, uh, ccls are, are climbing on ccls.

I'll take it. Protection on sea cliffs bolts, et cetera, are more prone to wear and tear because of the brine. The, the, the salt in the air that breaks down metal. So bolts on sea cliffs and places like Thailand and Kinos, et cetera. They need to be replaced or at least need to be replaced with a stronger metal like titanium.

Here you are climbing on these, uh, this particular pet, this, [00:38:00] this particular protection. It's not even a proper bolt, right? So why not have that be replaced? Like, why would you? I, I, I get the ethic around not adding bolts. Of course you cannot add bolts, but why not replace this manky? Uh. Pegs, which could claim somebody's life if it shattered and 

Rob: people got hurt, because I don't have the right to do that.

I'm not a local climber. It's only the local climbers that have the right to do that. And sometimes when you, if you try and get that peg out and you hit it a couple of times with a hammer, it'll snap like a carrot because it's, it, it's half rusted through. I mean, you, you can only see what isn't rusted really on the, on the outside.

But you know, in the crack it'll be rusted. So it was only half rusted through. So my [00:39:00] judgment was that that peg was okay to fall on as long as, as long as it wasn't through the eye, because it sticks out about, uh, two inches. So stick, that's why I could put that, I could put a sling over the top of it 'cause it's sticking out.

And my judgment was that because it's only half rusted through, it was okay. That was my judgment. Now if local climbers want to go and replace it, then that will snap when they're taking it out. And there isn't really another space for a peg to go in. So it, it's, it's a judgment call for the local climbers.

I see. I was quite happy with it. Fair and no. And oh, 

Kush: in your video you describe in painstaking detail on [00:40:00] just some of the physics with how you have to utilize that bag because Yes, if you simply just, um. Hang something on the, the eyelet. It would be more prone 

Rob: Yeah. 

Kush: To, to, uh, shattering. Yeah. Increasing the 

Rob: leverage.

Yeah. You don't wanna increase the leverage. Yeah. 

Kush: Okay. So maybe, again, a contrary question. So why no, why would the local, sorry 

Rob: to interrupt, you said, you said, um, on, on the day that I actually led it. How did it feel at the bottom of the class? Yes, let's go into that. Let's go to that. Yes, because, uh, I'd already, I'd already failed on it even though it was a stupid day to try it.

It was very bad conditions. So, um, all that my mates [00:41:00] said, oh, that's all right. It'll make a better film, you know, having fallen up on it. Thanks very much. So how did I feel? I felt that this was the time to do it because it was a decent day. and I wasn't injured. I felt okay. I felt fine. And, uh, you what?

You know what it's like when you're a climber, you get in in the zone. So I was in the zone. I had me 32 runners that I was going to use on the climb, most of which aren't very good as you can imagine, but a combination of all of the little, you know, rubbish ones together sometimes, you know, uh, give you that secure feeling.

So I set up what's called the CAD across the traverse to base camp, which is on the video. I've got all the runners on base camp [00:42:00] fine, then up to advanced base that I call it in the video and then to the crux and. Before the crux, I started feeling really concerned because I thought, you know, moments in time, this was mo, this was a moment in time and I had to get, I had to get that, uh, that peg hooked with the sling.

And once I got that peg hooked and my hands weren't frozen and I wasn't being buffeted by the wind, it was a nice day. It, it just went fine.

Kush: Got it. And sounds like, yes, that, um, that first try might have helped you get the heebie GBS out of [00:43:00] the system because like many climbers know. Once you actually like, no, it doesn't matter how long you've been climbing, there's something about the act of falling that is still scary, right? And sometimes you have to kind of keep, um, re rehearsing and keep retraining your mind to be able to separate, let's say, uh, yeah, objective risk versus not.

So you had gotten that scary fall outta the way. At what point, Rob, did you feel that this climb was in the back?

Rob: When I got past the crux and I was back into my comfort zone, which is on my feet because the angle eases back slightly. So that my, my strength as a climber, is not my physical strength. [00:44:00] It's my footwork because footwork, um, has, you know, I used, used to, when we started climbing, we used to climb in great big boots.

So footwork, precision has always been there. And, you know, if I'm gonna blow my own trumpet, I'm pretty good on my feet. So at that stage I knew that if I was very careful and very considered and above all, I said to myself, uh, Kush, when I got, I got past the crook, I said, right, I'm gonna bloody enjoy myself now.

So I sort of sucked in some enjoyment of actually being out there in what they call the death zone after the peg, because I felt in control and I was enjoying the moment. And when I got to the top, you know, it was like. [00:45:00] Very nice. Just get in there, boy. Yeah. So yes, I really enjoyed the top half. 

Kush: And did really everything go perfectly and or despite, no.

Yeah. Were there any moments where you uh, yeah. 

Rob: Yeah. There, there, there was moments. Um, the, um, one of the reasons that I fell off the first time was because it took me six and a half minutes hanging below the crooks to get the sling off because it put it under several other slings and I couldn't get them off.

Oh my goodness. And then take the tape to tape to take the sky hooks on. I couldn't get, I couldn't get off my leg because my fingers were frozen. All, all stuff like that, you know, there was, yeah, there was loads of little things, but I mean, that's climbing, isn't it? It's never gonna go Perfect. When I actually did the route, um, the, the send as they would say in [00:46:00] America, yes, everything went, uh, pretty well.

Thank you. And how, 

Kush: how did it feel, Rob, like you obviously had this long lifetime of climbing and achievements, but like, how did it feel on this particular moment when you got to the top and you knew you had done this climb? 

Rob: It was, it was very private, but I was proud of myself. Okay. I was proud of myself in a way that I'd never experienced before because I'd laid my cards on the table and the media frenzy sort of took off.

Before I even did the climb, and that mounted a fantastic amount of pressure on me. And [00:47:00] it, it's not usual to do it that way around. Normally you do it first and then, and then you can do videos and stuff about preparation, you know? But I've done it, I've done it the other way around. So because it put all that pressure on myself and because it was climbing at my limit and because the bells were such an iconic route and everybody was saying, even if I didn't believe them, everybody was saying, bloody hell, that is amazing that doing that.

And um, well, yeah, but I had pointed it. I didn't, it wasn't an onsite, I head pointed it. I knew where all the holds were and they said, well, that's what people do nowadays. So, yeah. It was crazy, but yes. Uh, in to summarize that. Yeah. Funny. It's funny saying that, but yeah, I was proud of myself. 

Kush: Well, congratulations Rob.[00:48:00] 

Cheers, mate. Thank you.

a proud achievement. You had mentioned how your footwork had been honed through early years because you had to.

These things called nailed boots. I think this is an excellent segue because I wanted to ask about your early years. You started climbing with your dad, 

Rob: correct? Yeah. 

Kush: You were just a kid and your gear was Yes. Nail boots, maybe no other things that should Yeah, no. That are probably in museums now. 

Rob: I, I, I didn't have nail boots.

I had big, big mountain boots, big rubber mountain boots. But initially it was just what we called in the UK Plin souls Little white gym shoes. I, [00:49:00] I wanted some nailed boots, but they didn't have a size small enough for me, so it was only me dad that had the nailed boots. Okay. Well, quite frankly, nail boots are horrific things to climb in.

I don't, I don't, I can't even imagine. I can't, I can't imagine any intelligent person designing a climbing boot with metal studs on it. It doesn't make sense to me. And of course the early climbers were the intelligentsia, weren't they? They were the ones from university, correct, correct. And not all, not only that, Kush, they were so intelligent that when they went climbing, they used to tie themselves together so that if one fell off, the all fell off.

I mean, that's right. Where's the sensing now? 

Kush: [00:50:00] That's right. That's right. No, absolutely. Yes. And you know, I'm conjuring of that, that visual in my head, you know, back in the day of like. These humans daisy chaining themselves? Yeah. On the side of a cliff. Um, yeah, for sure. Um, again, okay,

your dad took you climbing Rob, and I'm guessing this is maybe sometime in the early sixties you were a young lad and that kind of old school apprenticeship feels more and more rare now because Yes. Most of us start climbing in gyms these days and 

Rob: yeah, 

Kush: we go out, if we go out, we go out in groups and we learn things [00:51:00] through all kinds of novel ways.

So no judgment there. But Rob, what, what did your dad pass on to you and how did that shape your approach as 

Rob: a timer? I think my dad passed on judgment to me how to take in the mountain conditions and how to respond to them. Um, you, the leader, never, the, the leader never falls. That was the, that was the key.

Um, the other thing he taught me was that, um, you should never hear your feet.

Your feet should be silent. I know that coaches say that now, nowadays to, you know, clients in the gym, you should never hear your feet because they're all going bang, [00:52:00] bang, bang. But my dad said, you know, way back in the sixties, he said that, I don't want to hear your feet gentle on your feet. Forget you.

And climb, looking down. Do not climb, looking up. So you, you, you only look up when your feet are planted, then you look up, look for your handhold, then you look down again and you move upwards, looking down, not up, things like that. And when, when I was young, me, my dad thought it was safer that I lead. So I started leading at about the age of 10.

Because for me to hold me dad's rope, if my dad fell off, that would be serious. So we reversed roles and so I, I started leading really early on, which was great for me. [00:53:00] And, 

Kush: and I'm get again, uh, I'm guessing those were the years when falling was not an option, right? No. I mean, you were placing maybe some gear somewhere.

Yeah. But really, really, you were planning to never fall when you were out, down climbing down climb all the time. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Rob, how was it learning climbing from your father? And I asked that because, well, my dad took on the role of my teacher, like, you know, many parents do. And it was kind of scary when he would sit down with us and try and teach us, uh.

Math or other subjects because yes. I mean, his expectations of me were pretty high, and I was a little afraid of my dad growing up. So, yeah. How was it learning from not just any teacher, [00:54:00] but from your father and, yeah. What was that culture of that time like? 

Rob: It was, it, it, they were just days out together.

I think my, my dad liked taking me out because it meant that he could go all the time. Uh, so my mother wasn't going to complain if, uh, oh, they're going climbing again. But it was taking me out. So it was great. So it, it wa it was just, it was me, mate. It was me, Powell, there was no, there was no sort of father, son or authoritarian side to it at all.

It was just my, my mate, my buddy. Of course I totally respected him, you know, and if he lost his temper, he frightened me to death. But, you know, um, I, it was just, uh, they were just great days. 

Kush: Did your father [00:55:00] also help shape your approach of just becoming an adult, of becoming a man? Was that part of the, uh, the apprenticeship?

Rob: Yeah, it was, it was my mom and mom and dad really. I mean, mom started coming out climbing as well because she, uh, so we were a family unit. So my mother, because I went out with my dad, my mom wanted to come out as well. And, uh, she from being a city girl, 'cause she was a sort of city girl, she just loved going out in the hills.

And, um, yeah. But. They always instilled in me that education was everything. And they, they drove me, if anything, to become successful in terms of my education. And, you know, they pushed me onto, uh, [00:56:00] qualifications in university and everything like that. And that's, um, and they trained then to be, to become a teacher.

'cause my dad was a teacher, so maybe that influence from me dad made, made me become a, a, a full-time teacher for sure. So I was, so after I become, became a teacher, I was only a weekend warrior because I had a career in teaching. So I wasn't a professional climber by any stretch of the imagination. 

Kush: Yes.

Your dad passed on lessons, not just in the, uh, dark arts of climbing, but Yeah, that's right. Also, in, in, in just becoming, let's say a well-rounded. Hopefully And being able to support yourself. Yeah. Um, so now you climb with your Sun Creek? 

Rob: Yes. 

Kush: And yeah. You have done a lot of climbing together, I'm [00:57:00] guessing some serious climbs as well.

Rob: Yes. 

Kush: So what does that relationship mean to you? Did you mentor your son the same way your dad mentored you? 

Rob: Craig, Craig start, didn't start climbing till he was about 15 because he was doing other things. 'cause I believe that he should develop an athletic body. So he, he did a lot of swimming, he did a lot of cross country running and athletics.

And then at the age of 15, he wanted to come out with me. I, I was with a group of mates, so Craig sort of gelled into the team that we were, we were called the barrel lads, the bar lads. 'cause we came from Barrow in furnace. So the bar lads, the barrel boys, we were, we were quite famous around the UK as a climbing group.

And he became part of that. So he [00:58:00] learned the trade, not just from me. He learned the trade from all of my climbing mates. And Craig realized that without strength, you would never get to the highest of the E grades. So when he went away to university, he developed fantastic strength and I mean, fantastic strength, I mean, gymnastic strength.

He did a lot of training. And, um, he came back, uh, into the fold with this power that we'd never seen before, but he wasn't interested in on sighting, he was interested in head pointing because that was the new way. And so his grades went up, you know, E six, E seven, E eight, E [00:59:00] nine, and he repeated all of Dave Burkett's roots in the late district, the hardest e nines that a lot of people haven't done.

They've only had two ascents, a lot of them. And then he, he set up his own roots and is, he created what's called the route called Hard cheese. I don't know if you've ever heard of it,

which again, sorry. He created a route called hard cheese in the late district. I'm afraid I've not. No, no. Well, you'll hear about it in the future. Okay. Be because it's probably, it's certainly one of the hardest routes in the UK

a lot of the top climbers have tried it and can't do a move on it, but have kept quiet about it. 

Kush: Craig is not with us right now, but if I was to ask Craig Yeah. [01:00:00] How, what was going through his mind as he was blame father on this route, which forgive me, but which could potentially take his life.

Rob: He, Craig and I, Craig and I have held each other's ropes for, for many years on, on a lot of dangerous routes. A lot of hard routes. So we are used to the way that each other climbs. So I've held his ropes on hard climbs and he, he was most uncomfortable when he was filming from across, across the bay on my attempt.

And he said, I'm not doing that again. I'm holding your rope next time. So when I did the actual ascent, he held the rope because he wanted to be connected to me if you, [01:01:00] you know, as it were. And yeah, you'd have to ask him that question, but I think he had confidence that I had everything in control as I would if I was holding his rope on a, on a death route.

Kush: Sure, sure. Yeah. I'm just wondering, what was the communication that took place, uh, between you guys as you were taking off? You know, was it like, Hey dad, good luck. 

Rob: No, it's, um, you, you, you tend not to talk to each other. Just, you know, you, you get, you're in that zone. Um, when I'm concentrating, he won't talk to me.

He'll know when to talk to me. Sure. The, the photographers who were on the climb were brilliant because they never talked to me, they never said anything. I didn't even know they were there. I was left completely alone. And that was [01:02:00] important. cause you don't wanna get distracted. You, you need to be 100% focused on that rock in frontier.

Yep. Um, yeah. So, so from Craig's point of view, I think he was, he was glad he was holding the rope.

he was confident in my ability. 

Kush: Rob, one side question to ask you, you have done a lot of scary routes across the uk, maybe outside.

Did you dabble much with free soloing at all? Yeah, I've done that. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And did you free, did you free solo at any levels close to again, like your, your physical limits? 

Rob: Um, I prob probably the hardest routes of free solo order up to about E four. on Gritstone. Um, I might have done the odd E five.

[01:03:00] um, I've soloed in the Alps on Ice spaces in the Alps, um, back in the seventies. Um, yeah, but we tended not to brag about it or tell anybody about it. He just did it, um, regularly solo to, uh, e solo, up to E one E grades in the lakes. not so much. Not so much now. sure. Um, but I could do, I mean, I could, I, my, my strength, if you like, is just being, keeping my head together, but there's no.

I've got no drive to solo anything. If you said, do you know, do I want to solo butcher balls? No, I don't want to solo butcher balls in the States. Thank you very much. 

Kush: Yeah, I was saying that, if, okay, so if Butterballs is that, uh, finger crack [01:04:00] in Yosemite, I think in at cookie Cliff, yes. I, I have planned that. Brilliant. I think it's sometime, I think it's somewhere in the mid 11 of Yosemite grade system.

Mid 11. Yeah. I, I don't, I, I don't have the skills. All the desire to, uh, to attempt to, uh, to free solar. I, 

Rob: I just talking about Butterballs. Um, yes. I did that with Tobin Sorenson. Oh, wow. Mark who? And Mark who? Dom. Oh, no way. Back in 1975. Amazing. Just, I just thought I'd do a bit of name dropping. No, 

Kush: no. Hey, uh, yeah.

Fun, fun segue. Any, any, any, um, any great memories from that trip to Yosemite besides obviously climbing with people like Doen and Mark? 

Rob: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Wonderful. Um, the, to sample the life [01:05:00] at Camp four with the, the, um, questionable goings on that happened back in the day of, which I can't mention anything.

and living, living an underworld life for three months I was out there, was fantastic. And I'll never forget it, and I ha unfortunately have never been back since. 

Kush: Yes, this was the seventies. Can you compare and contrast the planning culture between what you saw in Yosemite and where you came from?

Rob: Oh, the, where I came from, remember I came from a family background where I had the confines of the family watching over me, and then I've moved into a professional career and I taught for two years. And then I said, I'm, I'm jacking my job in [01:06:00] here. So I went to Yosemite. So coming from a professional teaching background, climbing at weekends, going into the Yosemite underworld, as you can imagine, was somewhat different.

But what I can also tell you that I did take full advantage of it.

Kush: I love it. And well, Rob, you know, I guess what happens in the Yosemite underworld? Um, stay in the 

Rob: Yosemite underworld, stay in the, okay. So I'll not, 

Kush: uh, yes, I will not, uh, pick your brain too much about it. Uh, coming back to the present, you had mentioned earlier that back in the day you did not do any training, right?

No. yeah. But then at the same time, you were so well prepared for this route. At the beginning of this conversation, you said how great you feel physically, what kind of training. Did you [01:07:00] do for this route and in general to be able to, again, stay fit and limber and strong over the last few years?

Rob: Nothing special. I didn't do anything special for, for, for the bells training. I just met, I just, when I went to climbing walls, I would just take a long time going up fingery route. I mean, I wouldn't follow the same colors. I'd change colors just to get that finger intensity that I needed because, uh, I wasn't going to put a sling on the peg on my garage wall.

I chiseled a few holes out on the brickwork to simulate the lockup I was going to need to reach up to lasso the peg and the couple of moves. So I'd put a, a few. Um, [01:08:00] about three moves on my garage wall. and I called it the bell's crooks. How sad iss that? And um, that's because I couldn't get down there a lot of the time 'cause it was raining or blowing a gale or whatever.

And I just wanted to keep, uh, muscle memory, if you like. but generally my, my training's pretty low intensity, but regular, I'm a great believer in 80% training, but regular, if you go to a hundred percent, I need at least two or three days off. Uh, so if I go to failure in any training regime, I'd need three days off as, and I've noticed a massive difference after the age of 70.

Oh really? Yeah. Massive difference. Um, you know, certainly 60 to 70 is [01:09:00] fine. Um, you just gotta be careful. I I often say, um, train your strengths, but caress your weaknesses. You need to, you need to address your weaknesses, but very carefully, very, very carefully. Sure, sure. Otherwise, you'll get injured as you get older.

Definitely. Um, but you need to keep working at your strengths to keep them on, you know, on, on top form. 'cause you, you've climbed all your life on your strengths, so you can't just suddenly dismiss them and focus on your weaknesses. 'cause that don't work. 

Kush: No. That, that, that rings true. You know, like what they say, you gotta.

Yeah, you gotta manage your weaknesses and, uh, play to your strengths. What does a [01:10:00] typical day or maybe a typical week of your life look like when it comes to finding time to focus on climbing training, but overall being able to keep yourself again, limber and healthy. Because like you said, yes, you, you get to a certain point in your life when one needs to put in focused efforts towards keeping like, all the moving parts in check.

Rob: Yeah, yeah. 

Kush: And being able to make sure that, you know, you stay ahead of the curve there. So, yeah. What, what have you learned and applied in being able to stay in good shape, Rob? 

Rob: Um. I think I'm gonna talk about, um, grasping opportunities when things don't go right. Uh, 'cause every setback, of course, is an opportunity.

And, um, in 2017, I broke my finger climbing [01:11:00] and I was climbing probably about seven C at 67. I was really, you know, going well and I broke me finger and it's the first climbing accident I'd had and I fell off and I smashed me finger. So I was out the game. So what I did was I got a, what bike have you heard of?

A what bike? I hired one in. No, I have not. No, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a training bike and you put it on the floor. You can train on it for, um, I was gonna, I decided I was going to go cycle racing instead of climbing. So from 2000 and um, 14 it was to 2018. I didn't climb hardly. Um, I went to cycle racing and I trained for it [01:12:00] from scratch 'cause I'd never been on a bike hardly in my life.

And I just focused on that. And for heart lung exercise, that is fantastic. Cycle training and learning about, uh, how to race road races, uh, around the country. I did, uh, 25 road races around the country. I was totally, I mean, typical of me, 100% attic. And I think that that set my body up to move into the seventies.

Really well. Oh wow. That heart, that heart lung exercise away from climbing. I mean, they were still doing some training for climbing. 'cause cycling weakens your arms badly. Uh, but cycle training, I take my hat off to those, uh, those guys who do that, they are fantastic athletes. Brilliant. But that's the only time I've ever, [01:13:00] sorry to go on.

That's the only time I've ever trained 100% with a professional trainer and a professional program. And from not being anywhere with races, I started winning races because of that, that training that I got. Oh, wow. And, and, um, uh, so even at the age of late sixties. If you train, uh, under a coach, you can, you can develop massive amounts of power.

Amazing. But I haven't, I haven't taken that back to climbing though. Sure. Yeah. You, you picked 

Kush: up, or at some point you decided that cycling, was this going to be this new sport that you're gonna put your uh, 

Rob: yeah. Focused on? Yeah. I [01:14:00] had no choice. Maybe bad finger injury, bad, bad break smashed me, uh, finger.

Kush: Oh, wow. Okay. Okay. So you picked up cycling it, it caught you fancy, and, and then you said something else earlier that Yes. You just committed completely. Yeah. And to the point that you've hired a coach and a trainer, did that make a big difference, Rob? Because most of. Most of us are like, you know, um, self-coach climbers or self coached, uh, uh, amateur athletes.

Did getting a professional really sort things out for you? 

Rob: Massive. What did you learn? Learn Now what? Because I was totally new to the sport. I knew nothing about it. I didn't have a background in it. I didn't have any ideas. I was just like a youngster going [01:15:00] to a gym nowadays, I suppose, with climbing, uh, I was completely at sea and, um, I, it was like doing homework for teacher.

When you're training, you do your training, you get a report back on your training, you're given your next training session and so on, and it goes like that. It was really, it was really constructed in a professional way and it paid massive dividends. From nowhere. I mean, I never talk about climbing like this, but from nowhere.

Um, I, I won a national, a national series, you know, after three years cycling. Wow. From nowhere. So, um, yeah. Um, so it does work. It does work. But I'm saying I think that's helped my climbing into my seventies because I think it's helped me body. Do you feel, Rob, 

Kush: do [01:16:00] you feel you are a natural athlete? 

Rob: No. Or 

Kush: do you feel it's application?

What's the secret to your success? 

Rob: Success. Um, I think, I think it's, uh, grit and grit and determination in a way. I think you set your mind to something, um, because we, without determination, you've got nothing.

And it's that drive to get off your backside when you can't be bothered and that drive to sort of, you, you just languish there in your chair and you, you know, you're watching a soap on television and it's, you know, and that, and a lot of climbers of my age have gone to what I call the dark side. They've gone to sport climbing because it's so much easier, so much more enjoyable.

You go with your mates, you know, and [01:17:00] you go to Greece and you go to Spain and it's lovely and sunny and yeah, I mean, I've done that as well, but I haven't forgotten me. Tra

Kush: you go off with your mates to. Greece and Spain. Yeah. 

Rob: Yeah. Which is great. Which is great. But, um, I, I haven't forgotten me tread climbing and a lot of them have, and they feel, when I talk to them, I mean better climbers than me, I might add, I say to them, why you do not tread anymore?

I, I haven't got the, uh, it's gone. I haven't got it. Uh, and it's too much hassle. I can't be bothered with it. It's too much gear. And this is a lot easier and more enjoyable and you can have a few beers afterwards as you know. Um, yeah. Um, but um, yeah, I mean, I go to Kinos every year. It's great. 

Kush: It's great.

No, it sounds like you are, you are very, uh, you know, [01:18:00] uh, strategic there, like one, one doesn't have to choose, one can do both. I. 

Rob: It can. Yeah. You, you can. And um, whe when I am, when I'm outside in the mountains, I, I feel a million dollars because I'm sort of a lord of the manor feeling. Yeah. I go into an indoor climbing wall and it's really great because I'm, shit, I am the bottom of the pile in a climbing wall.

You know, this old bloke, you know, who can hardly do a V five, you know, or a v or a V six or whatever the grades they are now, it, it, it's, it's humbling. It's humbling. And these guys in the indoor climbing walls, I mean, if they're committed to going outside, well, it'd be great. I.[01:19:00] 

Kush: Well, the cliffs would be that much more crowded, uh, saying very, very selfishly. Uh, yes, Rob, uh, this, yeah. Just maybe spending another second on your, your physical abilities. You picked up cycling and sounds like it had these, um, you know, these bonus benefits Yeah. That have helped you, helped you with your, uh, fitness now.

Rob: Yes. 

Kush: Anything else outside of climbing and cycling that you do to stay healthy? Do you have a regimen with, I don't know, with stretching, with lifting weights? Are there other that you're doing? I, 

Rob: every morning I stretch.

For half an [01:20:00] hour. Gentle stretching. Just gentle stretching. And when, when I was, uh, when I played squat, I was a coach when I played squash. So warming up was very important. So I start at the top of my head and work down to my feet. 'cause it's something, it's easy, you can remember it. And I, I finish off with deep squats.

I find the deep squats have sorted out my knee problems that I was beginning to develop in my sixties. You know, you couldn't, you couldn't do rock overs. You couldn't get down on your horns, you know, and it's when, it's, the, the warning signs are when you can't get your foot in your underpants in the morning.

You know, you, you, you know, your back's stiff. And yes, just every, and it's, it's not every other day. It's every day. Every day you should stretch, in my opinion. [01:21:00] Um, I've done some videos on my YouTube channel on tra weight training and stuff, uh, for the aging aging athlete. So, um, so you could direct listeners to that.

Uh, wanted, if you wanted to, rather than me explain it here, they could see what I do. Simple stuff, not, I don't do pull-ups. Pull-ups are a no-no. Oh, absolutely. A no-no, because you will get injured. Too much strain. Um, brachialis, uh, shoulders. So I just do rows. With your, your feet at 45. So you have 45 degree angle and just, you know, right.

High pulls on the rows, far better 40 than pull-ups. So, and I do weighted weighted lifts, weighted pinch, grip lifts. Sure. [01:22:00] Fantastic. Uh, really good for the forearms and fingers. Uh, pinch grip wide pinches, uh, or narrow. It's, but sort of wide pinches. Um, yeah. Um, and instead of hanging, uh, which can be bad for your shoulders as you get older, I'll only hang at, uh, 85% of body weight.

Sure. Um, so I'll have my feet on say step ladders like you're climbing a big overhang. So you've got, say, 80% of your weight on your fingers. Yes. A train, half crimp.

Kush: Any lessons you have learned the hard way about, uh, physical training, maybe things that you stopped doing because maybe the, the pull-ups were one example. 

Rob: Yeah. 

Kush: Maybe some other, other lessons you've had on, again, being able to kind of keep that [01:23:00] body strong. 

Rob: Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm a very good friend of a climber called Neil Gresham, who is a very experienced trainer.

Um, he's a very good climber as well. Yes. And, uh, he is. So we, we share ideas a lot and he is, uh, I've learned quite a lot of training from him. So he, he's, uh, told me the importance of antagonists.

So I do, I do some antagonist, uh, training as well, but I don't do anything over the top. I just tick along. Um, they say, listen to your body. Sure. But unfortunately, when you get over 70, your body stops talking to you. And what happens is, yeah, what does that mean? I've heard 

Kush: you say that before. 

Rob: Yeah. It means that injuries come from nowhere.

You, you don't hear them coming. [01:24:00] Wow. Nothing in your body is telling you that this is going to come. So all of a sudden something can hit, could be a back, it could be your back, it could be your knee or something. And it's. Fortunately, nothing's major happen, but lots of little niggles suddenly arriving.

You don't know where they've arrived from. You know, you haven't, you don't, you don't deserve it. You haven't done anything wrong to get that. And it's come. 

Kush: No, Rob, I can totally empathize. Which is funny. I mean, I just turned 47 and I'm already feeling that. Yeah. And feeling the fragility of human body. 

Rob: Get out, get out.

You are at your peak. I know, 

Kush: right? 

Rob: Sorry. You are at your peak. You know, you're Yeah, I know. Yeah. I mean, I, I, I joke, I joke [01:25:00] with, uh, Dave Burke. I don't know if you've heard of Dave Burke, but he was a very high standard climber. I have, I have. Yes. And I said, you, you must feel really depressed there because you peaked and you're on your way down.

Because you climbed at such a high standard when you were young and I said, I climbed at such a low standard when I was young. I haven't peaked yet, so I feel great. And in fact, I've just peaked on the bells, haven't I? 

Kush: Rob, one thing also I love about your story is that you picked up these activities, you know, in your, in the last couple decades, which seemed to have brought you joy.

You talked about other sports you have picked up. You talked about cycling that you took to a high level [01:26:00] for people listening who kind of feel that the narrative we have is you get older and you stop doing things. You flip that. So, do you have anything to say to people on why they should con exploring,

Rob: to me it's like, what do you feel like when you don't do anything? What do you feel like when you just allow yourself to languish and sit there and do, and, and, oh, I haven't climbed for ages and you do nothing about it.

So what do you feel like, and basically. You feel bad about it, so do something about it so you don't feel bad about it. Because feeling bad about not doing something and feeling frustrated about not doing something is the worst feeling in the [01:27:00] world. So that's what drives me to get out there and do things.

And I think it's important to have a goal. You've got to have a goal. And in climbing terms, it's usually something that's a little bit harder than you think you can do just to drive you on, or a climb that you've never done. And you, you, you want to do it, you know? Um, you want to do butterballs, you've never done it all your life, you know, but you think, oh, it's a couple of grades harder.

Well, why not work on that? Give yourself a, you know, an horizon to go at. That, that to me is the most important thing. So people have said to me, now, what's next? And it won't be long before I've got a what next? Yeah. I'm just trying to cope with, with how, how the media, the climbing media in the small world that we [01:28:00] live in within climbing.

But it's, it's gone a bit, it's gone a bit mad on this. Yeah. And I can't, I can't understand it. Um, people explain it to me why it is a big deal, but I, I find it, I've only had pointed a root for God's sake, you know? But 

Kush: For sure. But, but, but Rob, of course, I mean, there are not that many people, again, not to talk about age too much, but they're not that many people in the seventies climbing, I.

The kind of routes that you are climbing now. I think that's what makes people set up. 

Rob: Yeah. Only because the, the, the sport climbing, there's not i'll, there's not many, um, of, of my generation, um, [01:29:00] the tar trad climbing. 

Kush: Exactly. Rob, that's the point. Like, you know, you are, 

Rob: I mean, there's people, people like Dougie Hall.

Have you heard of Dougie Hall? He's, he's about 70 now, and for his 70th birthday he did 70 e points. Top. Top roping. Top roping. But you know, the, the volume there is amazing, isn't it? 70 e points on your 70th birthday. That's amazing. And there's some of, some of the top climbers, you know, Ron Fset, um, he, he told me he is not interested in doing t trad anymore, but, you know, he is still a brilliant climber.

John Long will be a brilliant climber. Still won't he, he'll be about my age as well. but every, everybody to the own, you know? Um, yeah. [01:30:00] Um, yeah, I suppose I'm a bit unusual really. It's just that I'm no good at sport climbing. Sure. Sure. 

Kush: Rob, a couple of, uh, final questions, uh, before we round it off.

I like to ask everybody the second, what does being ageless mean to you? 

Rob: Ageless. Um, it means that, uh, age isn't an issue. you shouldn't let it be an issue. All too often it mentally becomes an issue and there's no excuse for that. There is an excuse if you physically, uh, can't do anything anymore, but I don't think there's an excuse for mentally allowing yourself not to do it if you can physically do it.

Kush: Strong words. Rob, what is one [01:31:00] thing outside of sports that you're so fond of outside of sports that gives you profound joy?

Rob: Outside of sport? Yes.

That's quite a difficult question. Um, 'cause everything, everything I value in life relates to some sort of achievement need not necessarily been sport. People ask me, have I got any heroes? Well, the heroes for me are the people that get out their comfort zone and there's millions of heroes out there. I don't think everybody pats themselves on the back enough because if you get out your comfort zone, it's an achievement in life on its own.

So that's beyond sport, but obviously it's an integral part of [01:32:00] sport as well. Um. I don't know if that answers the question. Um, 

Kush: but it, it does not answer the question, but I still love what you said. 

Rob: That's, I mean, I,

Kush: can you ask me the question again? Okay. Let me, let me try a different way. Uh, what might be just a simple thing in your daily life that you enjoy doing? 

Rob: Oh, walking the dog in the morning on the beach. Okay. Um, where it can clear me head, think about things. Um, yeah. I think it's important to find your soul in, in a daily routine if you can.

Uh, reflection. I've never been one for meditation or anything like that, but I think, uh, it doesn't have to be as extreme as that. Um, if that is indeed extreme. [01:33:00] 

Kush: Um, Rob, sorry I have to button, but somebody would just climb. One of the most extreme roots out there, you know, with death potential is calling the act of sitting down and focusing on one starts extreme.

Rob: Love it. Love it. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So, um, yeah, uh, yeah. Life's an interesting journey, isn't it? Yes. What, 

Kush: what might have been the greatest gift somebody ever gave you?

Rob: Material gift or, or, um, emotional gift you pick.

I think my [01:34:00] parents instilled in me the value of empathy

and sometimes I think too much about what other people think and how other people feel. And perhaps I should, but that, that empathy to me is the greatest, one of the greatest values that my parents, um, gave me, um, that I should always think about. And that doesn't come from a religious base at all, that is just a human base.

Um, respect other people. Do you want people to respect you? You respect other people, and one of the great things in life is trying to generate respect from others. [01:35:00] Because if you can get respect from others, it's one of the greatest feelings that you can have.

Kush: Yes. Insightful, yes. Wise, wise. And, uh, deep reaching lesson. On the flip side, what might have been the greatest gift you gave somebody?

Rob: Always strive to fulfill your potential. Always strive to fulfill your potential. The world's full of talented people who don't achieve because they've got no drive, and that it requires an inner strength. And I think if I could [01:36:00] pass on an inner strength to everybody to believe in your inner strength, 'cause everybody's got it.

It's in there somewhere, but too many people fail to use it. 

Kush: Sure. So, no. Is this like a message you're passing on or is this, I guess this message is a gift you want to pass on?

Rob: Yes, it's a message because I, I talking to people, I feel that there's a lot of frustration out there

and, and you shouldn't allow that to develop because it can become unhealthy to the individual. And there's not, there's nothing worse than the big, if only is the, if only I'd done this, or if only I'd done that, well actually mate go and do it.

Kush: Yeah, I think that [01:37:00] is, a wise lesson to take forward, which is leave no room for ifs. Yes. 

Rob: Yeah. In one's lives. Yeah. I mean, I mean, there's, there's, there's people, you know, a lot more educated than I am that have probably written books on this. but, um, you know, it, it's true. they, it's, um, and a feel for the people who've, um, who become, as they've got older, they've become injured or become ill, and they can no longer do what they want to do and a feel for those people because there's nothing they can do about it.

And that's, that's tragic. Uh, you know, and that's heartbreaking. but for the majority of us, we, we can do something about it.

Kush: Yes. And for the rest of us who still have. Our physical faculties [01:38:00] somewhat intact. I think we, we owe it to ourselves and to be able to, uh, at least, uh, attempt to reach our potential. 

Rob: Yes, 

Kush: Rob? Final question. Uh, fund one. At the beginning we talked about your breakfast, but, uh, what might be one meal you could eat every day?

Rob: Fresh salmon with a cheese sauce, new potatoes, Guernsey, potatoes of course. And, um, some nice soft runner beans. 

Kush: That sounds delicious. Which, uh, reminds me that [01:39:00] it is time for my launch 

Rob: launch, right. It's nearly tea time here. 

Kush: Yes. Yes. And I should also let you go to your next, uh, appointment or adventure for the day.

Rob: I am. Um, I'm gonna ask you a question now. Oh, please. What's, what's your, what's your challenge to get yourself outta the comfort zone in the climbing terms?

Kush: What's my challenge? To get myself out of the comfort zone I think it is to, so my comfort zone is. Essentially doing the, uh, the kno grease type of climbing. 

Rob: Yeah, 

Kush: that's good. That's good. And my, the, the challenge I have [01:40:00] is to be able to get past some nagging physical injuries. I have, you know, bad shoulders to be able to figure out ways to build more power.

Yeah. Be able to do, uh, more powerful things. More dynamic things. 

Rob: So, have you got a route in mind that you want to do? I do not have a specific route in mind. Okay. So your challenge now is find that specific route you want to do, but otherwise you'll just languish. 'cause unless you've got a, something that you want to do, you'll say, oh, I want to do, I want to sort my shoulder out.

I want to do this. So. You know, you, you need something at the end of the tunnel to drive you there. Yes, yes. I'm not saying you should do the bells. I'm not saying you should do the bells. [01:41:00] No, no. But the, there will be some maybe seven C sport route that you want to do. 

Kush: Yeah, I do have a goal like that. I mean, the thing with sport climbing is individual roots are not always as iconic as what is present in the traditional climbing world.

Because I think in the track climbing world, I mean Sure. I mean I'm, I'm generalizing deeply. Yeah. In the, there are iconic sports. Yeah. In the track climbing world, you know, you go off a specific root objectives. Yeah. In the sport climbing world for sure, you go after certain grades. So yes, I do have a goal, which is to get back to climbing in the eights.

Actually, I've never done an, never done an eight. So my hardest, uh, sport climbing grades, which was like, I don't know, 12 years ago, was a seven c plus. 

Rob: You've done a seven C plus. Um, and [01:42:00] you've never done the at. Yes. So choose the right at that isn't gonna damage your shoulder.

Kush: That's good advice. Yes. Yes. I need to be a little strategic and find Yeah. S type of route. Strategic. Definitely 

Rob: strategic. Yeah. I found that as you get older, you wanna climb the harder grade. You've got to be strategic. 

Kush: Right. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. No, I, I think, I think I, I, I think you, you underscore something which is important, I think, and maybe which goes beyond the world of climbing, which is the importance of having goals.

Yeah. Because if you just set, like, like if you just have some person, let's say random example who's trying to lose weight. Yeah. And I think just telling that person can wait doesn't always work. Because, because maybe the, the idea and the thing just seems kinda. Arbitrary. But then if you tell that person to get inspired by the idea of running, let's say a half [01:43:00] marathon or some other like kind of goal, you know?

Yeah. I think that allow, I think that tangibility allows people to Yeah, absolutely. Be motivated. So your advice is on point, not just to me, but for people listening is to find a goal and then kind of work backwards from that goal. 

Rob: Yeah. And a strategic goal. The older you get, the more strategic you have to pay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. 

Kush: Rob, it's been great stuff, a gift to have you on the show. Thank you so much for making the time. 

Rob: Okay mate, if we shake, uh, I can't shake your hand, but I mean, I would shake your hand if you were there. Alright mate. The pleasure.