#83 The Comeback: A Former Accountant’s Journey Back to The Water- And to The Pinnacle of the World of Open Water Swimming

Ageless Athlete - Andy Donaldson Part I
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Kush: ~And, uh, here we go. Um, any, um, so quick logistics wise, um, I can edit out anything we record, so yeah, that's available. And same thing, if you need to, uh, open the door or uh, step out for a moment, uh, that's completely fine as well. ~

Andy: ~Yeah. Okay. Well, that's good to know. But yeah, need to get my cup of tea that I can, I can nip out for a second and come back.~

Kush: ~Excellent. Any, uh, questions for me before we roll? ~

Andy: ~I think, um, unless there's a particular structure or anything, I'm, I'm happy to just run with it and it's more of a, an intimate and free flowing conversation. ~

Kush: ~That's exactly what it is. Perfect. Andy? Yeah, let's, uh, let's get rolling. ~

Andy: ~Let's get stuck in. I ~

Kush: ~always, excellent.~

~I, I always like to, uh, start off with this question, ~[00:00:00] where are you right now, and what did you have for breakfast?

Andy: So I'm presuming that questions, where are you physically, not where are you in your life or, 

Kush: yeah, no, just, 

Andy: uh, physical 

Kush: coordinates. 

Andy: Physical coordinates, and I don't know the exact latitude and longitude, but, uh, 32 south I think it is, or something like that. I, I'm in Perth, Western Australia, so this is, this is my home.

This is where I've lived for the last 12 years. Uh, it is in the morning here near afternoon or evening. And for breakfast, uh, I actually haven't had breakfast because, Saturdays sleep in for me. Uh, well at this, this point in my training [00:01:00] schedule. So usually I would train on a Saturday, but, uh, right now the intensity's not so high.

So, uh, I'm sleeping in and I didn't give myself enough time to get some breakfast before our call, so maybe not the good, the best example of, uh, a high performance athlete. 

Kush: I love it, Andy. I mean, uh, a few different ways we could go here, but one is obviously you earn your rest and it makes me doubly wait for that.

Yeah, you took time out this morning, you know, when you normally would not. You would be training, you would be doing other live things. So we are chatting today and uh, when we were, uh, starting off, you talked about getting a cup of tea and that made me smile because I am guessing that perhaps that is a [00:02:00] ritual that you have brought with you from your roots.

Because from my roots, from what I know, Australia is a coffee loving culture.

Andy: You're absolutely right, Kush. So, uh, I'm not, um, I'm not born in Australia. I, I moved here similar to yourself. Moving, moving across the world. Uh, I grew up in the west coast of Scotland. Drinking tea's a a big part of the culture and, uh, you know, everyone has a cup of tea every day. I, I probably have about four.

I have too many. Uh, but speaking of, of where you're from, I've been there and it's, I the best tea I've ever had in my life. The freshest and, and oh, just nothing compares to, just the nicest [00:03:00] cup I've ever had was in the south of India. 

Kush: Oh, wow. No, I was wondering, uh, I have, let's say dual allegiances. I was curious, which one were you referring to?

Yes, India produces good tea and a lot of that tea made it over to, to different parts of the world, 

starting 

Kush: from tea being exported to, uh, great Britain.

Yes, yes, yes. No, that's great and interesting. So, you know, starting from Scotland, now you live in Australia, you've held on to your cup of tea. But I am curious, what is perhaps one new ritual or custom you have added to your life in your new hope? 

Andy: I wouldn't say it's a, a ritual or a custom, [00:04:00] but open water swimming was something that I picked up when I moved to Australia.

And, you know, growing up, uh, in the west coast of Scotland or, or just the uk in, in general, there weren't many people swimming in the ocean or, or in the sea or outdoors, uh, when I was growing up. Uh, and you know, you, you come over here to Australia and you know, as part of the fabric of, of everyday life, everybody is outside.

Everybody is active. Wherever you go, there's a 50 meter pool in every single suburb. Weekends are spent down by the beach, evenings are spent down by the beach and you know, you're, you're out in the ocean as a 6-year-old kid learning to master the waves. And I didn't have that growing up. And it was, uh, [00:05:00] yeah, it was, it was a real culture shock for me.

I, I came back from a, from a pool swimming background and, uh, I was very much outta my element when I, I got here, uh, not out of my element, but it was, it was just so new to me. So yeah. In terms of something I've picked up, you know, I'm, I'm sure you were thinking of some kid that smaller ritual, like having, uh, having toasted veggie I eat or something like that.

But, uh, something that has impacted my life quite greatly and, and taking it down a different path was, yeah, just that connection to the outdoors and, and swimming out in the open water 

Kush: that is beautiful. And the, and the, and you know, for you small population, Australia is blessed with this dyna dynamic [00:06:00] access to the elements in the a.

And I also feel the same way. My one and only time in Australia was maybe 24 odd years ago. And I was also struck by just the, um, yeah, just the, um, 

athleticism, 

Kush: the friendliness and the constant movement that I saw in people every day. 

Andy: Well, it's, it's, it is just such a active population. You know, you, you go outside, everyone's running, everyone's cycling, everyone's doing some form of activity or sport, and, you know, it's set up perfectly for that.

You know, you've got beautiful golden beaches that stretch from miles as far as the eye can see. Uh, nice mountains if you want to be active and, and climb hills or, [00:07:00] um, get involved with, with nature that way, uh, it's safe for the cycling as well. And it's, I think it's also, you know, when a country has, um, it's heroes in different sports.

You know, you look to Jamaica with the, the sprinters or Kenya with the long distance runners, India with weightlifters or cricket players, you know, it just, it has a knock on effect and inspires that next generation and. Growing up in the uk, the sport there, the national sports football. So most people are doing that, and every other sport is in a sense pushed to the fringes.

But you come to Australia and that sport, it's swimming. So yeah, that was a big driver for me coming out here. I, I was looking to improve my [00:08:00] swimming and, um, inadvertently and unexpectedly or unplanned. I, I ended up segwaying off and, and taking a different path, uh, down open water swimming, 

Kush: just hanging on to the, uh, the location threat for a second.

I sense that many people, when they think of, you know, the big centers for outdoor sports, they probably think about Sydney to begin with. You know, they probably just go down that list of maybe size and density. So maybe it's Sydney, the, maybe it's Melbourne after that. And I suspect that bird seems to be one of those, um,

understated bema in a way because I only know about bird because I surf a little bit. Ah, I have a [00:09:00] couple of surfer buddies down there, so I need to visit, and I, I would really follow the surf scene in this little place called Margaret River. 

Margaret River. 

Kush: Yeah, it's, so, I, I, yeah, I mean, I was just curious, like, is there a particular reason you chose?

Is, is, is sport just the best place to be to pursue swimming in Australia? 

Andy: It's in terms of pool swimming, probably not. Uh, you know, the major hubs, like you said, Sydney, Melbourne, uh, Brisbane, gold Coast, a lot of things are up on the East Coast. Uh, and then you've got perf on the West, which is the most isolated capital city in the world.

It's, you know, it's, it's thousands of kilometers or thousands of miles away from your nearest major [00:10:00] city. Uh, it's closer to fly to Indonesia than it is to fly to Sydney. So, you know, it's off in its own little world over here. Uh, in terms of sport, there, there is a bit of a drain where the best athletes from a performance perspective, a lot of them end up going over to.

The East coast, because that's, that's the hub. That's where the, the best swimmers are all based and they, they get drawn over there, particularly in the pool swimming scene. So, Brisbane Gold Coast, really, like if looking back, you know, hindsight's 2020, if I really wanted to pursue pool swimming, you know, I, I look back and maybe I should have gone there or considered going across to America and, and getting involved in the NCAA or the, the collegiate system.

Uh, but, you know, life [00:11:00] brought me to Perth. Uh, I have an older sister that lives here. She was the one that really encouraged me to come and give it a try. And yeah, I, I got here and what I didn't know much about was this open water swimming scene in the, in the ocean swimming scene. And what PERF has, which isn't quite as established over in the east coast.

It has this one event called the Rockness Channel Swim. So the Rockness Channel Swim, it's, uh, 20 kilometers swim. So around 13 miles, 14 miles, uh, across to an island, uh, off the coast of Perth. And every year since the eighties. This swim has been happening and, and people have been swimming across this, this gulf [00:12:00] of, or this channel of, of really turbulent and, and quite treacherous water, that does have a few marine lives and, uh, and big things out there.

Thousands of people have been swimming across every year for the last 30 years. Uh, and so it's just had this humongous effect on the local community. You know, everybody knows what the rottenness channel one is here in Perth. Uh, it is the, the pinnacle, or it is what everyone wants to be involved in and, and do That is a swimmer in Perth and in, in turn, it's just made the swimming community here just incredible.

You, you are here in summer and there's probably two or three open water swimming races every weekend here in Perone, every weekend through summer. Uh, it is just had this knock on [00:13:00] spill onto the, the ecosystem and I got swept up in that and I, I got pulled into open water swimming after coming here. And you know, you don't have that in many other places in the world.

Like if I lived in Scotland and there was a 20 kilomet, uh, there was a island 20 kilometers off the coast. No one wants, no one needs want to, and just be there. It is something that's just very unique to the fabric of Western Australia and it, it goes to show the power of, of an iconic event that it, it just, it can have this long lasting impact on communities and, and where it takes and where, how it impacts the people that live in those places.

Kush: Amazing. As you're talking, you know, I'm, it's almost like I'm, [00:14:00] drawing this visual of like the swim happening and like the entire city gravitating to the water, either to partake in the swim or to maybe support 

Andy: people they know or to 

Kush: Yeah. 

Andy: Well, and that's it. Like, um, you know, this one day a year in February, uh, every single year you get people flocking over to the island just to be part of the swim or just to see the finish or see people coming out of the water that they've made that, that journey from cos low beach across the channel to Rot nest.

Rot nest is, I'm trying to think of a, an equivalent. It, it is synonymous with perf life. You know? It is, everyone goes there, you know, it's a great holiday destination. It's the, the place is just stunning. [00:15:00] Like, it, it is like a, a, a paradise. And, uh, the people here just very proud of it and, and proud of that event.

It's, it's quintessentially something that's Western Australian and yeah, it's, it's just amazing that it's here and, and that was really the starting place of my own open water swimming journey or mar ultra marathon swimming journey. Uh, I should say, 

Kush: I'm guessing that when your sister brought up perhaps this idea of, uh, spending time in birth, you had likely heard about this event and were, I don't know if temptation is a, is a cliche word, but where were you in your swimming journey and what impact did that [00:16:00] invitation have on you?

Was it the idea of coming to birth, change of scenery, new country? Was that perhaps, uh, more tantalizing or was it to just, uh, continue with your swimming ambitions? Maybe, uh, we, we focus on maybe that swim on Rot Nest, but also with just the community and the culture and the training. Like what was perhaps, uh, you know, the, uh, the trigger there.

Andy: Yeah. When, so when my sister, uh, encouraged me to come out, it was, it was right at the start of 2020, uh, 2013, so 12 years ago. And I was a pool swimmer. Uh, 200 meter freestyle was my specialty. Uh, I really, really wanted to make the Scotland team at the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow 2014. So the Commonwealth [00:17:00] Games is all the former British colonies.

They, they come together, the ones that are part of the Commonwealth, and just like the Olympics every four years, this happens every four years. And, and 2014. So the following year was set to be held in Glasgow, near where I grew up. It was a really special thing to, to target. So Hannah, my sister, had said, come out to Australia, see what you think.

Train over here. Uh, it's a change of scenery. It might be really exciting for you in this part of your life. You're, you're 21 years old. Uh, so yeah, it was, it was just no a no brainer for me. And I didn't know much about open water swimming. I had zero interest in it. I was a 200 meter swimmer. It was all about speed and power, and I hated anything that was long distance.

[00:18:00] Uh, I didn't like swimming in the open water. I had zero experience of it. And yeah, that was, that was my goal. You know, I, I moved out there. I was really focused on trying to make teams and realize my potential i'd, I'd been swimming for, oh, 14 years at that point in time, ever since I was seven years old.

And, and that had been a goal and a, and a dream of mine. And yeah, it was, um, it was a real change in my path. You know, I got out there, I really focused in on, on the 200 freestyle, but funnily enough, a couple of months before the qualifiers, before the trials, and I was swimming in the ocean and I actually injured myself swimming in the ocean.

And it was, [00:19:00] it was actually quite embarrassing Kush, uh, I was running, I was watching all these other athletes, these, these Australians just effortlessly. Navigate their way out past the break into the ocean. They were running in off the beach, running across the bank, diving in, and he just made this west coast of Scotland Kit with zero surf skills, zero knowledge of the ocean.

And I went running like full Pel into the ocean, did this dive straight into a sandbank and oh 

goodness, 

Andy: one stretch out and my shoulder just went completely, took the brunt of it all. And that was me out for, for months. And yeah, it was, it was a humbling experience and [00:20:00] I managed to, to rehab, I got myself as fit as I could for these trials, uh, but ultimately fell short of those goals to, to qualify for the Scotland team, to to race for Scotland at the at home Commonwealth games.

And, and that was a very, very difficult thing to position, to be in, you know, all these people that had grown up with, uh, you know, we'd shared this dream together, watching them go on and realizing this dream that, that we all had. And I was left at home watching from afar. I mean, I. I couldn't even really bring myself to watch it.

It was, it was heartbreaking. And yeah, that was a, that was a very tough, tough time in, in life in in, in my swimming career. Um, you know, I never got really the, the opportunity to realize what could have been or, or [00:21:00] test myself at, at Full peak Fitness,

Kush: well, myself and, and, and many of the everyday athletes, uh, listening to the show, I think you can all empathize in your predicament because I have been battling injuries for a little while, and it certainly feels like, you know, one second, you're at the top of a game and you have this big goals and your life kinda is centered.

You have this focus and the next second, just like your world shifts, you know, and like, you, you feel like you've been, you've been frozen on the sidelines. And another thing maybe that you talked about, which I think is um, it's interesting. Like, I, I like to think that, you know, our sports and our communities, they are, um, you know, they're so, um, friendly and we have this amazing bond.[00:22:00] 

I also sometimes think that that is not always so true. I, I actually feel that a lot of these elite sports, these lifestyle sports, there's a bit of ableism in there where, you know, if you are hanging with the back and you're doing things with that, then it's absolutely so invigorated. But the second, like, you cannot do that.

Something happens which pulls you out. Sometimes your community, they don't always understand or have the time because, because a lot of the time that you spend with your folks is maybe out swimming. Swimming, doing. Yeah. Can you speak a little bit about like how some of that felt like 

Andy: Yeah. It's, it, it can be quite lonely.

It's, it's never a nice feeling and, and sometimes the people around you don't know [00:23:00] what to say and it's not that they don't wanna help, it's just that they don't know how to do it. And yeah, you can feel a bit isolated and on your own in those circumstances. And, you know, I certainly did for, for a while and I probably would, I probably was too young or not mature enough to really.

Realize that and seek help or speak out about it, or not speak out about it, but speak to someone about it or, or reflect, look at the good things that had come up to that point. Uh, I was very much in the dumps and feeling, trying to sweep it under the rug and just not, not think about it.

Kush: Well, also, when we were earlier planning this conversation, Andy, [00:24:00] you spoke about how you were still recovering from a lower back issue. So, well, I really appreciate you showing up because I know how derailing something like a core injury or lower back injury. I also had a flare up recently. I mean, it, it pulls the brakes on, on everything.

Um,

since we are on this topic, can you talk about what's happening with your back today? Maybe your fitness today, and maybe how some of your lessons from earlier are helping you develop that mindset to persevere? 

Andy: Ooh, okay. So to provide context, I have been struggling with a lower back injury.

We were supposed to [00:25:00] catch up a couple of days ago and, and I was in a real bad place with that. And yeah, it's not easy is it when you have these injuries and it, it just stops you from life doing these things that you love to do, being up and, and moving and, you know, for me, swimming and, and getting the endorphins, getting access to community, all these things that are good for the body, the mind, the spirit, uh, it's, it can, yeah, it can certainly be difficult on the sidelines.

Um, if I was to look back, I mean, this all happened back in 2014, so that's 11 years ago. And, and a lot of stuff has happened in between, you know, I made a transition into open water swimming. I, again, set new goals to try and make the Olympic team for Great Britain and [00:26:00] then explored opportunities to maybe swim from mom's country, Indonesia.

And almost in like a, like a repeat situation, I never got those opportunities to test myself at the trials. I got myself into phenomenal shape, learned all of these open water skills, and, and never really got to realize my potential or see what I could do, uh, with those abilities. And, and again, that was a very difficult time and it actually caused me to step away from the sport.

I did reengage with it back in 2021, uh, 2020. I'm sure we'll cover that at some point in, in this chat and we could probably revisit it. And that's taken me to where I am now, which is on this ultramarathon swimming path. Swimming some of the [00:27:00] world's biggest channels, um, ultra marathon swims, things that people have never done before and, and trying to tie purpose, uh, into these challenges and, and use them as something more than just me aspiring to achieve personal goals.

Like there's, there's always a, um, something bigger at play that, that we're tying in when we do these challenges. So yeah, in terms of, of lessons, I think, uh, one of the biggest ones is probably being patience. This is your situation now. Yeah, it might not be great, but that doesn't necessarily determine where you can go.

Things take time. The body takes time to heal. Everything takes time, but it doesn't mean that it can. And [00:28:00] sometimes these things happen for a reason. You weren't meant to go down this path. Maybe you were meant to go this way. You know, my first injury in 2014, if that hadn't happened, and if I went to the Commonwealth Games, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing now.

You know, I probably, I might not even be living in Australia. same again in 2016 when I quit swimming. You know, I needed that time away from the sport to realize how important it was in my life. Not in terms of, not just in terms of that. I love the sport, but I love everything that comes with it. The connection to the water, being out in nature, being surrounded by your friends and incredible community, having goals work towards all of these things and, and the impact that that has on, on your life and your wellbeing.

You know, I think you, you sometimes have to take a step aside to realize what you no [00:29:00] longer have or just how important something is. And, and that perspective was certainly something I gained in that time away. So, yeah, that, that lesson from all of this is. Just be patient, follow the path. My mentor, one of my mentors, Jay Pral, he has a saying and not sure if it's his or not.

I think it's not, but he says, life doesn't happen to you, it happens for you. And I would say that's the same here. You know, just be patient, let things unfold and, and then judge whether it's good or bad. But most of the time it's all up to our interpretation after all.

Kush: Yes. Uh, a hundred percent. It takes some, it can take a bit of distance and perspective to be able to, uh, to reframe that in a positive way. I've certainly found that true in my own life as well. And you've had [00:30:00] a, a, a very interesting journey, Andy, and I just wanna go back to your transition from being this competitive pool, pool sprinter, right?

You were, you were, you were this, I guess this, this finely tuned machine, completely focused on this sport and this goal. And you transition to something, which to me as an outsider, feels, seems completely different. I love for you to walk us through. One is maybe just compare and contrast like the two different sports.

What it, yeah, yeah. What are, what are the key differences that you had to face [00:31:00] in making that and some, stumbles you might have had, uh, some moments of humility you faced and maybe some, some strengths that you found that you were not aware of because obviously you have some gifts and that's why you are doing what you're doing.

Andy: Yeah. I'll make a, I'll make some analogies. So swimming's quite broad. You have pool swimming, which every four years at the Olympic Games, that's the one that you see on the television, you know, is in a very controlled environment. It's in a 50 meter pool. Most of the time you know exactly how far you're swimming.

So if you're swimming 200 meters, you're swimming for four laps, you know, pretty much it's gonna take, let's say less than two minutes. And at this particular point in time, I know [00:32:00] that I am in heat five lane four. It's gonna start at 9:00 AM in the morning. Like, you know, there's a lot of, it's, it's a very controlled environment, which allows you to focus on one thing, which is your performance.

And, and that's what it's about. It's all about high performance, getting the fastest possible time. And it's, it's a very results driven, results orientated sport. If you have a great performance, but the result isn't good, it's pretty ro it's, um, it's a very difficult thing. You could be training all year round and you get on, get there on race day, and if you're a few seconds slower than your time, you know, that's, that's a reflection of your entire year.

It's, it's, [00:33:00] it is high pressure. Uh, compare that to open water swimming. The open water swimming is outdoors. It could be in rivers, lakes, oceans, and up in the mountains down by sea level. There's, there's a lot of different environments that you might be swimming in and with that comes unpredictability. If you're swimming outdoors, what's the weather doing?

Is it windy? Is it sunny? Or are you swimming through the night? Are you, is there huge tides that are gonna be pushing you left and right or, or swells currents under the water that you can't see is the sea life. There's no lane ropes, there's no black line to follow. Uh, and there's all these variables out there that are just completely wild and unpredictable.

So it's, [00:34:00] it's the exact opposite in terms of an environment. Uh, and within open water swimming, you've got different branches. So you've got the, the Olympic pathway and the, the world aquatics route, which usually is lapse of a course. So if I was to make a comparison to running, you know, you've got this, the events that Usain Bolt were, was doing, the 102 hundred, that would be like your, um, like your pool swimming, uh, then maybe you have the marathon, which is, you know, running on the road.

But it's a, a set out course. Then you've probably got something different, a a little bit of a different environment with the ultra marathon space. Things like your channel swims or point to point swims or swimming around an island where. The course is [00:35:00] less defined and you just have to get from A to B and you, ideally, you, uh, depends what your goal is.

I think for a lot of people it's just to make it to the finish. And, you know, again, Jay Pral my mentor, to finish first, first you must finish. Like there's all of these environments, um, sorry. There's all of these factors that can affect you, uh, like the weather, like the, the wind and the waves and the water conditions.

All of these affect you as a swimmer and in such a great manner. You know, if you're a runner and you want to run 40 kilometers or a marathon, you can go in most days. But as a swimmer, if you're trying to swim the same distance and [00:36:00] it's howling winds like gale force winds and the waves are crashing down on top of you and, and the currents are pushing in the wrong direction, you're not gonna make it.

It's um, yeah, mother nature. She's not to be concrete, you know, you, you have to work with her. And, and that's what open water, that, that ultra marathon space, uh, is so key to get that right. Uh, and so the planning and adaptability really comes into its own. And, you know, you might travel somewhere like a swim such as the English channel.

I live in Australia. If I fly up to England, that's, that's a long way. And it takes quite a cost commitment. I could get there. I'm given five days where I need to get my swim done and, [00:37:00] and the weather's crap for those five days. Uh, guess what, you're not swimming this year. So, you know, the biggest difference from the pool to the open water is this controllable factors, um, aspect of it All.

One's designed for elite performance in that very results orientated, focused. The other is maneuvering and making the most of whatever mother nature gives you. And for me, you know, getting to the finish is, is the goal. Anything beyond that? If you get a fast time. Records or anything else, like that's, that's just really, um, something on top of it, like a, a nice bonus or the icing on the cake.

But it's not like mother nature's under no obligation [00:38:00] to comply. And, and I think that's what makes it so exciting.

Kush: That was very educational. I, I feel I learned a little bit about, uh, the, the contrast between pool swimming and between open water, but then also between, let's say shorter open water swims and the ultra marathon swims that you are well known for. And actually interesting, uh, you mentioned about how you have to just carefully, uh, fine tune your, your planning because yeah, the vagaries of Mother Nature can derail.

And it took me to my time in surfing where you also have to plan your surf trips. And I, I'm wondering, does that happen? Where do you look at like, [00:39:00] uh, like, like meteorology, meteorological charts and like when, like, do you do all of that like, uh, study, like, uh. Tough to plan your trips to like Hawaii or 

Andy: Hundred percent.

Kush: Okay. 

Andy: A slight addiction to the windy app watching. Yeah. 

Kush: Same, same, same. 

Andy: Watching all the ones and, and the of them, you see the, the purple areas and you know that that's not good. You don't need to be a weatherman to know that, that's, you're not getting out in those conditions. Uh, but you know, the, the reason why, you know, aside from improving your likelihood of success, the other reason why is safety.

You know, you are swimming in wild waters. You are swimming in potentially some of the most dangerous places in the world. And it [00:40:00] is not just you out there. Yes, you might be the only person in the water, but these swims. You, you, you can't do them alone. You, you have your support team usually in a boat beside you, a skipper, navigating, um, people keeping you, you hydrated and fed, passing on important details and, and updates during your swim.

Uh, and if you get it wrong, you're, you're not putting yourself in danger. You're putting them in danger too. And so there's that accountability aspect of it all as well. And so 

planning, 

Andy: you know, in, in another life, I I was a ca or in, in America the CPA and planning, it, it, it's not something that's as sexy a topic as something like [00:41:00] resilience and mindset and all these kind of things, but it's equally as important and, and pivotal when it comes to having a suc, like giving yourself the best chance of success and giving yourself the most appropriate opportunity for a safe swim.

Kush: I'm a hundred percent like you have to, uh, I guess, become experts in all these new fields mm-hmm. In order to again, uh, again, uh, have the best chances, not only for success, but also safety for you and your team. Andy, in your transition,

from spool swimming to. To maybe the rot nest and then beyond, obviously it was not smooth sailing. Perhaps you could take us to maybe one or two moments in that transition where [00:42:00] it really seemed difficult, like all the new things you had to learn to be able to succeed in an entirely new discipline.

Andy: Yeah, that's, uh, that's a good question, Kush, and I think a relevant one because that transition from poop swimming to open water, it can be quite daunting. It can be quite daunting because of those differences in the environment. You know, like we talked about, going from the smooth can waters of the swimming pool, uh, out into the unknown, like you are swimming in waters where it could be rough.

You're swimming in waters that could be freezing cold. You're swimming in waters where you might not be able to see the bottom of the pool like, [00:43:00] like, like you would in the pool. You, you might not be able to see the bottom or it might be cloudy or, uh, there's a lot of silts that, that impairs your vision.

Uh, and there's no laying robes to help guide you to where you need to go. I mean, you may not 

Kush: be able to see. You know, a few feet ahead of you if it's dark or if it's stormy. Like, like yeah, I've, I've 

Andy: totally, I've been in where these things have happened. You know, I've been in swims where I've swam through the night and I couldn't see more than my, my fingertips.

And I know that the below below me, this channel that I'm swimming across is, is kilometers deep and you just don't know it's underneath. Or I've been in swims where my support boat's broken down and I've been stranded out in the ocean. Uh, I've been in swims where gives me, we, we swam into unforecasted storms and, you know, these, these [00:44:00] things can happen.

I'm probably not really selling my sport right away very well right now, but where I should probably begin with is you don't make that jump up to here straight away. It is a gradual process. You know, you find people that you can, you can learn from others in the community that are comfortable that, that have that knowledge of how to swim in the open water.

They, they know what to look for, they know what the risks are. Uh, they can share and, and get you upskilled in that, you know, you don't just go down to the beach and. Dive on straight in. Like what, what are the potential hazards? Are there rocks over there? Is there a sandbar? Like I had, uh, are there rips in, in currents that we should try to stay clear of?

What happens if we, we get caught in them? How do we get [00:45:00] out of them? Uh, where's our stuff and, and is there a landmark on the land that we could keep an eye on so we don't get lost and, and can't find where, where we were when we, we began this swim? Uh, you know, these, these small things that make sense when you hear them, but you might not have, you don't know what you don't know.

and so yeah, I, I was very fortunate. I, I had some of the best open water swimmers in Australia to learn from and, you know, you become a product of your environment. They were the best at what they did. They were training for the real Olympic games in the 10 K, and I just got lifted up to their level and it just really was like a sponge trying to learn everything that I could in order to improve and, and pick up this new skill.

And, and you [00:46:00] know, the swimming is, is largely the same. You know, you, you choose the more efficient stroke, usually freestyle. And there's, there's a couple of tweaks in order to help you navigate when you're out in the open water. You probably, if I was to list them off, off the top of my head, sighting so that you know where you're going and, and can take a more direct route you're not swimming off course.

Which, you know, happened to me in one of my very first swims where, you know, I swam so far off course that, uh, I actually had to get fetched by a kayak and, and brought back into, into the main race. 'cause I, I, I wandered off so much and, you know, I was probably faster than most of that field, but I swam so far much further that I ended up coming second by less than, by less than a second.

And the guy that came first won an iPad. And I remember [00:47:00] thinking to myself, I was, I was devastated to you. I saw him go and, and, and claim that at price giving and I was like, ah. And that's when I learned, open water's not about being the fittest or the fastest. It's about being smarter and, and learning how to navigate the conditions well and learning to navigate or adapt to the challenges that arise and, and do that in an efficient manner.

Be planned and prepared for your swims. And so, you know, to anyone that's getting into the sport, you learn by doing. But, but make that progression gradual and, and learn from the people around you. people ask me, how do I get more comfortable? And in rough conditions, reading a book will, will help.

And you could learn about all these, these [00:48:00] things watching YouTube videos, but you have to expose yourself to, at some point, you, you don't learn a car, you don't learn how to drive a car without getting behind the wheel. Uh, but make it easier for yourself, like swim with other people so that you are feeling comfortable, gradually increase exposure to those conditions.

Or, you know, for, uh, if it ever, it comes down to the cold water swimming, you, you don't go straight into like two degree water or I'm not sure what that is in Fahrenheit. Basically ice swimming. 

Kush: Yeah. Yeah. You, you, you build 

Andy: up to it. Uh, and you, the, the mental part of it is, is probably the biggest shift.

You know, I came into open water swimming in my mid twenties and you've lived your life in, well, I had lived my life in this very controlled environment of pool swimming. So the mental aspect [00:49:00] is a huge shift. And I'd just say be, be kind to yourself. Give yourself compassion. It's, it's not gonna come straight away, but you know, like we talked about with patients, it, it will happen.

Just, just keep turning up, keep the consistency, and I tell you what, it, it will be worth it in all the, at the end, you know, what this sport brings in terms of how it can enrich your life. That connection to the water, being able to swim in some of the most beautiful places on the planet, like that's what it's done for me.

You know, I've been fortunate enough to swim in places like Hawaii or Turkey or, um, the Red Sea in Egypt or South America, Japan, New Zealand, Australia, [00:50:00] Scotland, you know, that last one's a bit fresh, but yeah, you know, it, it is a very freeing sport. You know, I, I know you would, you would've experienced it with surfing, like being out there in the elements.

Like there's, there's nothing that compares to it. And if you can build that comfort in the open water. It opens up so many doors to other things as well. You know, if you're com comfortable and competent, you know, you can go into diving or surfing or kayaking or free diving, what, whatever you want to do.

Like it's the base level sport for waterman ship and, and all of these different things that are out there in the ocean. Uh, and so, yeah, if you are in this position where you are making this transition, thinking [00:51:00] about that, why, why keep going, why persevere with this tell you now? It is, it is worth it in the end, it's worth sticking at it.

So, you know, I'd encourage you to keep going down this path 'cause it will enrich your life 

Kush: and the, the lessons and the advice you shared. I, I think in some ways it transcends sport because there's so many things where if you decide to take the uncharted difficult path, yes, yes, one can surround oneself by all kinds of media, but one has to take that step into that journey and the way to perhaps.

Soften it or add power under your belt is by finding community [00:52:00] of fellow sufferers or, or just people who are, who are, who are, who have been doing it, uh, longer than one has. And I sense that open water swimming similar to many other, let's say outdoor lifestyle sports, the community and the bonds are, are strong.

Where, you know, once you start going out there and people notice you, people are usually very open to supporting because they have likely been supported themselves when they began their journey. And you made use of this lovely community and the community responded. I am curious if there was some kind of moment, maybe even an epiphany when you started into the sport [00:53:00] and you were maybe just take so, I don't know, so taken away by the 3D nature of the environment or how your body was feeling.

And you were like, wow, I'm so glad I. Made the shift, or I discovered, or maybe maybe the, the open water discovered me, and this is where I belong. 

Andy: Yeah, I, I can tell you the exact moment when that happened in my life, Kush. So I, I'll provide a bit of context, but it happened during COVID and, you know, I think COVID obviously, there was a, there was a lot of chaos and madness in the world and a lot of bad things happened in COVID.

I think in, in a sense there was also a time for reflection and a lot of change in people's lives. And I was no exception to that. So, to fill in the gaps a [00:54:00] little bit, I actually, I quit swimming in 2016 and that was me done. You know, I, I failed twice at these big goals that I had, and I felt like I was falling behind in other aspects of life.

So I stepped away from it, focused on my career, uh, as an accountant for a number of years, but inadvertently during COVID, found myself coming back to the water. Uh, and originally it was just for sheer pleasure. You know, myself and an old friend and mentor of my, uh, a geck called Martin Smoothie, he got me back into the water and we, we didn't have anything else to do in, walked down.

We were all stuck at home and he was saying, you know, let's get back in the water. We're gonna swim [00:55:00] a couple of kilometers up the coast every morning, uh, from a beach called, um, tri Beach up to Sorrento Beach here in the western suburbs of, of perf

And, you know, swimming at that point in life, held a lot of it, it brought a lot of pain to me because, you know, when I thought of swimming, I, I thought of failure. You know, I hadn't achieved these goals. I, I hadn't realized my dreams more, even more than that. I felt like I'd let down a lot of people that had believed in me and supported me through that journey.

You know, my, my coaches that I'd worked with every day, my friends who really believed in me and my family, who, you know, been taking me to the pool since I was seven and [00:56:00] coming back to it, you know, it was, it was a bit confronting. But I came back to from a place of enjoyment instead. And, and that's what Martin was really trying to encourage me to, to think about, you know, what are the good things that it brings into your life and that connection to the water, having time in the ocean and, and being immersed in nature, having time along with your own thoughts.

Time to think. Uh, you know, in today's world where we're always connected with our phones, you know, it's one of the few places in the world where you don't have that or your emails in your pocket because it's so beautiful. Uh, the endorphins that you get from the exercise, seeing beautiful things under the water, which we did every day.

Like we would swim just as sunrise was coming up. And, [00:57:00] you know, those moments, they, they stay with you. And so, and, and more than that, it wasn't just the swims, it was the, the cups of tea afterwards as well, or the hot chocolates, you know, it was, there was the community aspect as well. So, you know, I I I started to realize just how much I, I missed this and, and needed this in my life and so much so we, we actually started, well we, Martin and I, Martin's a businessman.

We were talking, we were like, this has got such an impact on our lives. Like we need to, we need to get more people into open water swimming. Uh, so we actually, we started a little group called Swim Clan, uh, and we started getting arrow to come down to the water and, and get them more comfortable in open water swimming for the purposes of [00:58:00] life enrichment.

we wanted them to be, uh, stronger swimmers, be out in the open water and, and maybe revisit some of these goals that they'd had, but might have. 

Kush: And 

Andy: this is happening 

Kush: in, this is happening in Perth. This is, uh, just getting a timeline. This is, yeah, this is like post during COVID when you re rediscovered the water.

Yes, yes. 

Andy: And so, you know, we were, we were coaching these people, helping them towards these unfulfilled goals. And, you know, it didn't have to be big. It, it was, you know, I want to do my first ever triathlon, or I want to be in a relay team across to the rot nest island. Or I just want to be more comfortable in the sea so that I can enjoy the ocean with my kids.

And, and we were doing that and, and we were coaching these people for maybe two or three months. [00:59:00] And along the way I. Martin turned to me. He, he kinda called me out and he is like, look, you're going and you're telling all of these people to pursue their dreams or revisit unfulfilled goals. When are you gonna turn, when are you going to get back on the horse yourself and, and do this?

And it's, you know, do what you preach. Uh, and he set that challenge for me and I thought, well, gosh, that's, uh, that's quite confronting. But he was absolutely right. You know, I'd, I'd been running away from this path. I'd, I'd, I'd had all these, these things under the surface that I hadn't really addressed.

And it probably goes back to my childhood and, and not feeling like I was good enough or, or lacking that self-belief to go on and, and achieve what I set out to achieve. And [01:00:00] I thought, yeah, this is, this is the time and the place to do it. I, I had some money in the bank. I was in a good place, um, physically and mentally, and I thought, well, it might not be an Olympics, but why not have a crack at the Rock Next Channel swim and, and see what I can do.

So that was really the, the start of this journey back into swimming and into marathon swimming and. It was less about the pressures of results and performance. Instead, it was coming from a place of enjoyment, love of the sport, and the only competition was really with myself. Can I get myself into the fittest possible shape?

And I'd love to see what I'll be able to do when I get there.