Brain Science and Beyond Flow States — How to Build Cognitive Reserve For The Long Game

Ageless Athlete Recording - Dr Tommy Wood
===

Kush: [00:00:00] Dr. Wood, I always like to start off with this question, which is, where are you right now and what did you have for breakfast this morning? 

Dr Wood: right now I'm in my office, in my house in Linwood, Washington, which is just a little bit north of Seattle. So I work at the University of Washington. for breakfast I had, uh, leftovers.

So I had, uh, leftover steak, some acorn squash that I roasted, and then I had, uh, I think I had a pair, so some fruit and a cup of coffee before that, and a cup of tea afterwards. 

Kush: Well, I can see the, the ent, greenery behind you, so the northwest and, Washington state, I mean, it's, it's, uh, it's living behind you and sounds like from your breakfast.

Sounds hardy and sounds like you are not. Beholden to traditional breakfast 

Dr Wood: [00:01:00] meals? no. I, I usually, maybe not usually, I often have leftovers for breakfast, and for lunch, that, that's very convenient. But then I know I'm getting a good quality meal. sometimes I will rely on, uh, more, breakfast, uh, appropriate foods, uh, some yogurt and berries and things like that.

sometimes I'll have like, uh, there are a few like high protein cereals that I, I quite like, so if I'm really in a rush, I'll have something like that. But if I can, something that looks a lot like dinner I'll have for breakfast. 

Kush: One other thing I noticed is that, you know, you are in a part of this country, which is snobbish about its coffee.

But then you also had tea, and I'm wondering if there's this, uh, combination of your new home and maybe your, uh, your prior roots overseas. Yeah. That, 

Dr Wood: that, that's exactly it. uh, most of mo most of my childhood and early adulthood, I, uh, lived and grew up in the uk. so the tea definitely comes from that.

It's a struggle to get [00:02:00] a cup of tea that really feels like home. So it takes me three tea bags to get kind of like the strength and flavor that I'm looking for. but other than, other than that, yeah, that's, that's where the, that's where the tea comes from.

The, the coffee snobbery, certainly something that I've appropriated from my new home. although I will say that, uh, Seattle is mainly known for its espresso style coffees, right? It's the home of Starbucks and yeah, a lot of coffee shops that have sort of come outta that. So like, you know, dark roast espressos, americanos, cappuccinos, that kind of stuff.

I much prefer a much lighter roast that I do as like a pour over. so a little bit less of that in Seattle. But certainly the coffee culture has contributed to my, uh, my love of coffee. 

Kush: Dr. Wood. For listeners who haven't come across your work yet, you are a neuroscientist 

And physician at. University of Washington, and you also co-host [00:03:00] the Better Brain Fitness podcast, and you also publish widely on brain health, fitness, resilience.

And that's why it's such an honor to have you on the show , I mean, you are somebody who, trains and I think in a way experiments with your own body. So before we go into it, what's been your latest movement obsession, something you are enjoying in your own veining lately?

So over the years, I've trained and competed in, in, in many sports. I started out as a rower in university, uh, both an undergraduate and a medical school. I've done CrossFit, power lifting ultra marathons. I did the world's first ever fully off-road Iron Ironman triathlon in 2012.

Dr Wood: and I've da [00:04:00] you know, dabbled in, not like competitive bodybuilding, but like that kind of style of training. most recently for the last, oh, it's a few years now, I kind of started dur during COVID, but now I, I train and compete in strongman. so lifting rocks, pulling trucks, lifting logs, that I enjoy a lot because it's.

It requires some aerobic fitness. you have to be able to move heavyweight quickly. It also requires some static strength, and it's a bit more varied than, you know, some of the other kind of power and strength sports. it is different events, every competition. So I, you know, have to train different skills.

that's something that I, that I, I enjoy a lot. 

Kush: I will say that growing up I was a big fan of the strongman type of competitions. It seems like, I'm not sure what the current status is, but back then, you know, it was all the, uh, I think all the magnises. 

Dr Wood: I'm, I'm half Icelandic, so these are, these are all like, the Icelanders have dominated well, so except for the US [00:05:00] more Icelanders have won or stood on the podium of, World's strongest man than any other country.

And they have a population of 350,000. So it's kind of, I, I feel like it's a little bit in my jeans maybe. 

Kush: Yeah. I believe that Iceland is, or at least used to, used to have the world's most maybe homogenous Hmm, 

yeah. Genetic 

goal. 

Yeah. And 

I'm wondering there is some, maybe there is some predisposition to doing impressive strength work.

Dr Wood: so, so now that the population has expanded, they've have, have had a, a lot of immigration related to tourism. And I think that's definitely something they've welcomed because they've, they've been a small, isolated, island for a long period of time. but you're right.

Maybe the, the sort of early, late nineties, early two thousands, they were one of the most genetically homogeneous populations in the world. and they were studied for that reason. There's a company called Deco Genetics that got access to all of the, or the majority of the [00:06:00] populations, genetics, to try and look for genetic, links to disease and, and all these other things.

I actually worked at Decode Genetics, in my gap year between, high school and, and university or college. and they did an interesting study, that's why I'm telling you this for a reason. They did an interesting study a few years ago where they looked at the genetics of the original Icelandic settlers, right?

So they have the, the remains of the original Icelandic settlers, and the genetics of modern Icelanders, and then the genetics of modern Norwegians. So the original settlers of Iceland came from Norway. And what they found was that the original CLER of Iceland genetically were more similar to modern day Norwegians than they were to modern day Icelanders.

So what that tells us is that essentially centuries of living on this frozen rock in the middle of nowhere shaped the Icelandic genome because like [00:07:00] everybody else was just killed off at one point. Infant mortality in Iceland was 40% So like living on such a, in such a hard, uh, environment has shaped the Icelandic genome.

And maybe some of that then involves either an interest in or capability for some of these, uh, impressive feats.

Kush: I. Like to think that the weather, I'm in San Francisco and the weather up in Seattle is, uh, can be cold and unpleasant at times, but for you it is, you know, uh, positively balmy. Oh yeah, no 

Dr Wood: problem. I mean, I like, no, nobody really likes the rain and dark, or some people like the rain and dark, but like, I, I like the sunshine.

But yeah, it's something that I'm used to obviously 

Kush: that, that was, that was a fascinating, uh, share. Yeah. Loved hearing that. So Dr. Wood, the listeners of this podcast are everyday athletes, particularly folks who like to recreate in the outdoors. Mm-hmm. and I think that there is just, [00:08:00] yes, just so much that we can learn from you today. Don't have enough time. I thought what we could do to structure our chat. Is maybe do these following things, so feel free to tweak it. I thought we could start with the body. Movement, exercise and how that ties to brain health. 

Then we could get into the brain itself. There's so much work that you have done that we can learn from. So this would be maybe how we can keep our brain sharp and adaptable as we age. And then finally, maybe we could just try to integrate the two with things like daily habits, motivation, and maybe even identity on what can keep all of this sustainable.

Does that flow sound all right? Yeah, let's do it. Okay. Beautiful. so let's get into the body [00:09:00] movement and maybe movement as, uh. As brain insurance. And I think, I think that is something that I have heard you talk about, which is exercise is the closest thing we have to brain insurance. And for somebody like me, for example, you know, I'm more familiar with like how my body feels, how my arms and fingers feel from a big day of climbing outside.

I'm, I'm less familiar with, let's say, neural pathways. so what's actually happening in the body and our brain when we train consistently. 

Dr Wood: I think maybe before, before we get into that, just based on something you said, when we think about, when we think about the brain and it's difficult to think about the brain because this is like, it's like this unknowable.

Lump of tissue that kind of just like sits in your skull and it's very difficult to really understand how it does what it does. And that's actually something, you know, if you [00:10:00] ever have a neuroscientist who tells you that they fully understand the brain, they're probably lying to you.

Because to be honest, we, we don't, we, we know some things, but we, we probably don't know nearly as much as we'd like to think that we know. but when you're trying to, when you're sort of integrating this, like all these, like you said, oh, I know how my, right, so maybe you did a, a tough bouldering session or like you wiped out on the surfboard and you're like, you got some like kind of aches and things like, you know, how your body feels kind of in response to exercise and, and, and movement.

And I think that we can give ourselves, some credibility in terms of thinking about like how our brain feels. As well. Often, these things are kind of poo-pooed in the world of, of science because it's not like hard data. but if you think about the different levels at which you could integrate information about how the brain is working, how you feel on a day-to-day basis is probably like the ultimate integration, right?

The brain is getting all these inputs from the body and the environment and all these other things, and like just how you feel is [00:11:00] probably the best sort of summary of like, how is your brain operating right now? and I think that often we poo poo the subjective to try and go for the objective, right?

The wearables and the data and all this kind of stuff. But actually, you know, particularly if you're then gonna start making changes related to brain health, how you feel is probably a reasonable indicator actually of, of how the brain is doing. When you then think about exercise specifically in terms of what it's doing in the brain, I think we can break this down into three different types of exercise that ideally we would all incorporate into our lives in, in some way or another.

aerobic exercise is one that probably everybody's gonna be familiar with. And this is, you know, it, it has grades of intensity, right? So it could just be right if you've, if you are relatively sedentary, you've never done exercise before, I don't think that's, that's doesn't sound like that's your audience.

But just like in the [00:12:00] bigger picture, just like starting to walk every day, doing some occasional, like walking three times a week, building up a little bit of intensity so you get like a brisk walk. We know. But that helps to support both brain structure and function. There are studies that, um, have shown that they show, uh, regions of the brain related to memory by the hippocampus.

They get bigger in sedentary older adults if they do undergo a walking training program and cognitive function improves. we know that as things get more intense, we get maybe a little bit more benefit. So there was a study that compared being sedentary to doing some like moderate intensity, like you go for a jog for 40 minutes versus doing some like high intensity, intervals, like four minutes, uh, 85 to 95% of max heart rate with, uh, rest in between doing that four times, it's the Norwegian four by four protocol.

If anybody's heard of that. As you went up those intensity levels, you saw greater improvements. Again, the structure of the hippocampus very critical for [00:13:00] memory. Uh, very important as part of like long-term cognitive function. and. They sustained those improvements for years after that training protocol.

It was, it was a hard, it was hard work. They did that three times a week for six months, but then they retained those benefits for a long period of time. So that kind of aerobic work, again, scaled to your current level of fitness, um, seems to be particularly beneficial for a part of the brain we call the gray matter.

So if you think about a brain, a human brain, it's kind of, you know, very wrinkly. and that outer most wrinkly layer is a part of the gray matter that we call the cortex. and then actually deep inside the brain as well, there's more gray matter. And that's in between those two is where the hippocampus lives.

It's parts of the gray matter, like I said, very important for memory. Hippocampus is particularly vulnerable in things like Alzheimer's disease. so aerobic training seems to be particularly beneficial for gray matter and seems to [00:14:00] be particularly beneficial for memory in terms of our cognitive, in terms of our cognitive functions.

The next, area of exercises like strength or resistance training. so that's lifting weights, bands, it can be body weight, you know, anything where you're really creating muscular tension against resistance. You can do it lots of different ways to do it. but in general, that's gonna result in either bigger muscles and or more strength rather than say aerobic fitness.

Although actually if you're sedentary and you start to lift weights, you will also get fitter as well. You'll get cardiovascularly fitter just because it's a, a new kind of stimulus. so studies that do that, Again, in randomized controlled trials, if you put people on a very basic resistance training program, so we're talking two or three times a week, you go into the gym for 45 minutes, you do six different exercises on the machines.

You do three sets of eight to 12 repetitions, like the most basic strength training routine. You see significant improvements in the structure of the white [00:15:00] matter. So the white matter is the part of the brain that kind of sits in between that outer wrinkly gray matter and the, the deeper parts beneath and in, uh, humans have more white matter than any other species.

And it's particularly important for like really fast connections and building these complex networks of activity in the brain for like the com, you know, our complex cognitive skills that are sort of unique to our species. So the white matter structure has improved, particularly with strength training.

And then you also see improvements in. What we call global cognition. So that's like, just like if you did a ton of different cognitive function tests and we sort of added up all the, all the scores. That gives you like a global measure. Resistance training seems to be particularly good sort of globally for the brain, but particularly in terms of things like executive function, so our decision making, and you know, just sort of like being able to control our emotions and our, decisions in, in kind of real time.

the reasons why we see different effects of different types of exercise is related to the different things that get released by the [00:16:00] body when we're exercising. Your muscles are organs. They're not just, you know, things that hold your bones together. They actually release all these factors when you move them.

So we call them mykines. other organs in the body like the liver. And the bones also release things during exercise. So the, the, the whole kind of group of these molecules are called kines. but two examples might be, brain derived neurotrophic factor. That's something that's released, during many types of exercise.

it affects muscle function, but it can also, help to support the growth and function of neurons in the brain. The, actually the best way to increase brain derived neurotrophic factor in the brain is to make lots of lactate. So that's why intensity matters in exercise. 'cause you make lactate that goes up into the brain, it switches on the tap of BDNF, and then that supports neurons that were recently active or are trying to make new connections or to grow by [00:17:00] comparison.

resistance training releases things like IGF one, which is really critical for white matter production. So different types of exercise release, different chemicals. They have different effects on the brain that affects different structures and affects different functions. the final piece to this, and I think this is really important.

I mean, I, I think very relevant to, to what you and your audience do, you know, compared to say just people who, who train at the gym every day, is that, lifting weights, jogging or cycling. Those kind of unimodal, exercises are very good for those reasons that I just mentioned. But, exercises that are more complex require more complex motor skills, require you to respond to the environment.

Uh, maybe have a social component. these are exercises or sports you might call open skill sports. Uh, there's others we call closed skill sports, but we're talking, uh, racket sports, uh, or ball sports, team sports, uh, maybe even board sports, [00:18:00] right? You mentioned surfing, right? You're having to constantly react to the, you know, rec to the environment.

dancing is a big one here. These, coordinative movements in addition to the physical benefits they have also then seem to have an outsized effect on the brain. Probably because again, there's social connection, there's more complex motor skills that you're having to learn. you're using like more muscles at the same time.

Often,it's maybe more of a challenge to the brain because you're having to like orient your space in orient, orient yourself in space. and there were some like big meta-analyses of lots of studies that suggest that for a given level of physical strain, so like how hard it is physically, if you did it as a coordinative of exercise.

So playing badminton or table tennis or a dance class, you'll get more benefits for the brain you know, it compared to if you did that same level of physical activity, but it was like jogging or cycling or lifting weights because of those additional challenges and, and benefits that come from it. Those are like the three main buckets of exercise, how they affect the [00:19:00] brain in, in different ways. does that cover your question? Anything else that I can add to sort of, give a little bit more light onto those different pieces? 

Kush: A lot of information there. Uh, Dr. Wood. Yes, I certainly have, have some follow up.

for our listeners, you know, there are these three different types of exercise mm-hmm. And three different types of, let's say stimulation spoke about. And it seems that they're all important in one way or the other, but would it be too simplistic to say that they are all equally important?

And I guess what I'm getting to is, is there a reason to favor one type of. Or movement over the other if one is trying to, build a structured training plan [00:20:00] route. 

Dr Wood: So in reality, I don't think that we have to like really favor one OO over another for a few d for a few different reasons. the vast majority of evidence linking physical fitness, physical strength and training to brain health, cognitive function, cognitive decline, basically just says that you need to be fit enough and you need to be strong enough.

And that doesn't require that much work, right? So if you're somebody who does some kind of movement every day and you're slowly, you know, improving over time, that's probably, you know, you've reached 80, 90% of of what, of what you need, of what you need to achieve. and I think this is important because.

There are many different ways to skin this cat and everybody should do the things that they, that they want to do, right? I don't, you know, if you have one particular type of exercise or movement that you enjoy, I don't have any good any good evidence to say, oh no, you shouldn't do that.

You should do this instead. And [00:21:00] also you are much more likely to do the thing that you want to do and the thing that you enjoy. So you know, if, if you like going jogging, that's great and you know, maybe then you think, well, particularly if, if, we know that you are less likely to get injuries as an endurance athlete if you also do some strength training, right?

So it's gonna benefit and, and actually you might even run faster. So it's gonna benefit your running, but it's also gonna be beneficial for your brain and you can sort of add some of these other things on top. So resistance training, you may be only to do. twice a week, right? Most of that's what most of the studies suggest.

30 to 45 minutes at a time. if you really don't like jogging, cycling, any of those things, right? You can get those cardiovascular benefits by going to a dance class or going and, playing some football or soccer or the surfing, right? If you don't like lifting weights, you can get a lot of the same benefits in terms of strength if you do some Pilates or some yoga.

And those also have a coordinative component. So [00:22:00] I think that as long as you are, doing a variety of different activities that kind of provide some of these benefits, there's a lot of different ways to do it. and there's very, there's very little evidence that says, oh, you have to do this one particular thing.

You would maybe just think about like. Do the activities that I do incorporate some, something that's gonna improve my cardiovascular health. Something that requires some coordination and complex motor skills, and something that requires me to like move my body against resistance. If you've ticked all those boxes, you're probably in, in pretty good shape.

Kush: One thing I can comprehend and relate to immediately is that when one adds this mental component to exercise it, I, it certainly feels different. Mm-hmm. You know, yeah. I've been doing these sports and I've also been lifting weights and, you know, doing some other geeky things for like a long time.

Right. And I feel that when I just go through the motions of some of these, uh, [00:23:00] activities that I know really well, I. I, I feel less challenged. Mm-hmm. Like if I do the same climbing workout or if I just go ride my bicycle around the same route I do all the time versus going to like a new area or versus getting on my mountain bike and going to a new trail, it doesn't feel as challenging.

And maybe the body does feel fatigued, but some, something about that doesn't challenge me the same way versus when I either do a new activity entirely 

mm-hmm. 

Or I add some new stimuli to, and existing activity pretty well because something about adding on a layer of challenge just makes me, and I think likely makes our listeners feel different.

I guess, let's put it this way, exercise movement is great per se, foundationally, but when we add that mental component, [00:24:00] it has all these other benefits and yes, you help break that down. And I also can understand that yes, nobody really understands, the complexity of how our mind works, the relationship between movement and cognition, but there are obvious benefits based on all the studies that have been done so far.

I wanna add, actually one other question around it. Some of these outdoor sports also have this element of adventure, and to be more specific, fear. I'm curious if you have some perspective because for, for example, I'm sure you have heard of this rock Lamber called Alex Ho. 

Yeah. 

Who you know, and there are all these studies that have come out on how people have studied his amygdala, I can't say that word, I'm sorry.

But yeah. Studies is brain and found that his brain has, uh, is different than maybe another [00:25:00] average human brain. My sense is that his brain has also evolved because of the uniqueness and the complexity of the challenges he has taken, and because he has learned incrementally to face fears and train themselves.

So I wonder if you have some perspective on when we add this additional layer of fear and adventure, if we can also stimulate our neural pathways in some way. 

Dr Wood: yes. So there's, uh, lots of super interesting things there, I think. Um, so you mentioned, you mentioned the amygdala. This is, this is typ typically, um, it's named that way because it's almond shaped.

It's kind of like deep in the middle of our brain, and it's, you know, responsible for gating, uh, a lot of our immediate reactions to, uh, an exposure, something that might be, frightening or alarming. and it's interesting that that fear is not necessarily the, the thing itself. Fear is more this, [00:26:00] like the story that we tell ourselves about the thing, right?

your other aspects, uh, uh, you know, that, that immediate response that you get isn't actually fear. fear comes from what you then tell yourself about it in the moments afterwards or like, you know, longitudinally after that. And so. Yes, to some extent, right? If you, and, and we know that, we know this is the case for pretty much exposure to anything, right?

So if you have a phobia or fear of something, exposure to that integrated way is one of the best ways to then start to dissociate that fear or to diminish that fear of, of that particular thing. this is one of the core parts of exposure therapy or cognitive behavioral therapy, which are like really important talk therapies in, in, mental health fields.

and that's because you start to change the story that you tell yourself about the thing that's in front of you. Um, when you are adding this element of maybe not, let's add, uh, like da, like danger, right? Or risk. Risk is a good ri uh, [00:27:00] adding a, uh, uh, a layer of risk and, uh, is, is maybe how we should talk about it and risk is important.

and then we even studied this in like kids growing up. That a really important element of self-regulation and, emotional maturity is expo. so in kids is, is exposure to something called risky play. which is right, it's not dangerous, but it's something that, you know, you might fall over and you might sprain a wrist or you might cut your knee or you might get lost, right?

But these are the ways that we actually learn how to regulate our emotions, regulate our engagement. Our brain sort of adapts to the environment. And that's something that I think we've been missing a lot from that group. And it's something that people are sort of starting to bring back because we got so worried about risk that actually we eliminated these formative experiences that were so important for us to, you know, learn how to control, you know, our brains learn how to control themselves.

And so this is important for adults, as well. [00:28:00] Regardless of previous experiences. so we learn, first of all, we're learning our current capabilities, and I think that's important both cognitively as well as psychologically. but then also when there's some risk, you actually pay attention. So one of the most important things for driving neuroplasticity, you know, developing new connections in the brain, supporting brain function, brain health, plasticity requires focus.

so the thing that kind of turns on neuroplasticity initially is, you know, some neurotransmitters. I don't usually go into listing neurotransmitters because they don't really mean anything to people, but like the, there is, certain neurotransmitters like dopamine and acetylcholine that kind of help and noradrenaline that help drive focus.

And that kind of turns on like, hey, this is a, this is a thing that I, it's important for me to focus on. And if I need to, this is gonna require my brain to adapt if I don't have the skills necessary to deal with this thing that that's in front of me. So one of the reasons why I [00:29:00] think slightly riskier situations, you know, as long as they're, you know, relatively safe, can be beneficial for your driving.

Some of these benefits in the brain is because it requires us to focus, it requires us to work really hard. Mm. And then we learn better from a motor skill and other, perspective because we're actually really focusing on, on the task ahead of us. the, then another piece, it's kind of separate but important here too, is that when you're in those outdoor environments, you are more likely to experience like a sense of awe, right?

So like this really formative feeling. It's like you're either you're like really small or like the world is just so massive and you like experience these things you just wouldn't experience in, in, in other situations and or. if you, you look at the work of daca, Kelner mean, he's, he is, he's near where you are, right?

this is like part of, you know, really part of an important part of the human experience and long-term, you know, brain health and function. So I think there are multiple reasons why those kinds of scenarios, can be really important [00:30:00] for kind of triggering some of these changes in the brain.

Kush: Beautiful. yeah, no, I loved everything you said there. I'm actually, I actually know, Dr. Kaner firsthand. We actually met at, we met at, at a retreat, at Essel n like a few years ago, and we sometimes run into each other at the rock climbing gym. Apparently his, his daughter rock climbs. He just loves to come and enjoy the sauna.

I, I just love his book and the work he's done. Mm-hmm. And yes, I think it's just all of those elements with. Outdoor exercise and that feeling of awe, I think, which is, I guess it's a little bit, a little bit less tangible, but it's something that we know is happening even though we can't quite put our finger on it in the same way.

And I think people here very deeply. Relate, relate to what you spoke of being in that state of perceived danger of fear? Absolutely. It is the story we tell ourselves that [00:31:00] forces us to find that flow, you know, that focus, that flow. And sometimes I wish that I could find that just quite as easily in day-to-day life.

And I did not have to put myself against like, this, uh, thousand for rock face, uh, in Yosemite or, or you know, in places like Squamish nor the you to kind of feel that. So actually, let me ask you this. what are maybe some more like, let's say, everyday situations where people can find that type of flow?

Because I think a lot of us, I will say for myself, I'm a lazy person. I'm more likely to do something that I know already and go and do more of it. So are there some, like some hacks, I hate that word. Are there some hacks on how people can find that flow and find that extra layer? That I think is,uh, [00:32:00] obvious from what you said also helps us develop 

mm-hmm.

mentor faculties. 

Dr Wood: So there's a few, there's a few different ways that, that we can look at this. And I, I think each of them have slightly different, effects on the brain, the things we might be looking for. And, but each of them is, is important. So, one of the, so if we're thinking about like more of these or states, then.

One of the easiest ways to achieve them is in, is in crowds. and, uh, Dr. Kelner has written about this, and I, I didn't, until I read this, I didn't realize why I loved mosh pits so much when I was a kid. Um, but like, he lists mosh pits as one of the,and then, so like, I was a, I loved, metal as a, as a teenager.

And then, and then I really got into like EDM. So then later on, like raves is exactly the same as when you just like lose yourself in the crowd and you're just like, part of this bigger organism of humanity. But, you know, you can also do it in, in, uh, you know, marches and [00:33:00] these other things. Like anytime you're in these big crowds for like a collective reason, that's, he also speaks about 

Kush: like, large, uh, large sporting events.

Dr Wood: yeah, yeah. Just like cheering, like you're cheering on your Yeah, we get the same thing. So the University of Washington, we have a, you know, I go to a lot of the home football games I remember experiencing this a couple of seasons ago. We placed, when we played Oregon, we've got a big, uh, like a rivalry against Oregon.

And just like when you've got tens of thousands of people just like cheering and yelling all at the same time, it's exactly that. So I think that we have these opportunities and particularly you, you become part of a larger collective. that's where we often experience some, some of those states.

the, the other thing that you mentioned, w was flow. And so flow is a very sp like, I'm gonna be like a little like neuro neuroscience nerd, like flow. Flow is a very specific thing. flow is the maximal expression of a l complex skill. so it's [00:34:00] when you are like surfing and you're at, like, you're at one with the board, right?

Just like everything moves exactly as you expect. You like know when the wave's gonna come, you know exactly what to do. And that's, that's usually when we have an opportunity to like express something that we're, we're already really good at. And that can be in any field, right? Music, language, sports, coding.

And you know, any of, any of those, right? You can kind of, and you can, that can also happen in, in groups working, you know, small groups working towards a, a common goal. so like, those are times like when you get sort of like arousal is, is in the right spot. So you're kind of, you're like focused but not stressed.

That's when you could really make the most of what you've already learned. That's flow. But if we're thinking about things that drive changes in the brain. They don't actually involve flow, they will involve a feeling of friction or difficulty. Because if you are already really good at it and you're finding flow, your brain isn't gonna [00:35:00] say, oh, I need to change.

Your brain is saying, oh yeah, great. I'm good at this. and so there's a slightly different signals. so the, so then to define that thing that, that other thing that you're asking about, just requires you to be in a position to learn something and, We all know that that process of learning, which usually requires failure and failure is one of the most important drivers of neuroplasticity.

'cause it's your brain. Your brain notices this gap between of what I'm currently capable of and what I want to be capable of. That's what drives neuroplasticity. So it can be, right. You can find it because you've taken up yoga and you're like falling on your butt. or you go to a language class and like.

Everything that comes out of your mouth is gibberish and you need to start building those new neural pathways. It could be like learning how to draw and like, you're like, I can see this thing in front of me, but what I've drawn looks nothing like it. All of these give you that opportunity [00:36:00] to like, for your brain to, to say, Hey, I need to make some changes here.

But it requires willingness to be uncomfortable and fail. and that's what kind of, that's what kind of drives those pathways. So I think all of those different things, you know, or flow learning, they're already critical. but we might, we might achieve them in slightly different ways depending on who we are, what we wanna do, what we wanna learn.

Kush: That was so clearly articulated for a non-scientist like me. I think it just makes so much sense that it is not the flow itself, but it is that effort. To find flow. It is overcoming that friction speak of, because when you are in flow, you know it's homeostasis. Like we are not really forcing changes.

Yeah. But when we put ourselves in a position where we are trying a goal in any activity, physical or [00:37:00] otherwise, that is forcing us to dig deeper. Yeah. Embrace discomfort. That is what will cross that growth. Now I wanna take what you have shared with us, and I would love for your help in framing this against aging.

So when people are, let's say the average person between the age of 45 and 65, what are some of those things these people can be doing to continue forcing that aeration? Against that, that sociological backdrop. once we get to the certain point in life, we tend to not, yeah, we tend to not seek those challenges because, you know, we are, we already know what we're good at.

We have our activities already. Maybe we are retiring and don't even have to [00:38:00] force ourself into challenges that, at the workplace. So love, lovely help. And, and what can this publish take away from this? 

Dr Wood: you may already realize this, but essentially you've answered, you've already answered your own question.

but I'll, I'll give you the long answer. So there are a number of different. Theories about what aging actually is. And, uh, a couple that I, I think could both be right and would both fit into this framework include just that, right? You use the machinery of your body so much and you can accelerate the aging process.

You can accelerate things breaking down and proteins accumulating and mitochondria are not working properly, like with different exposures. And it's just like things get rusty, and over time it kind of breaks down. Like that's one, like damage accumulates, and that's, that's aging. The another one is that aging is just the continuation of all the pathways that were [00:39:00] used to develop the brain and the body in the, in the first place.

and that one I think is, is really interesting because it actually really helps us to understand why some of these things are, are that we've already talked about are really important. So my position at the University of Washington is in neonatology, like my, well, one of my primary areas of research is in the developing brain.

And what you see is that the human brain in particular is really,evolutionary adapted to respond to the environment that it ends up in. So the areas of the brain that are most human, like most different compared to say, o other species, you know, o other primates, those areas of the brain are the least developed at birth.

And these are also the areas of the brain that are most evolutionarily advanced in humans. And so. the, the [00:40:00] human brain when it's born is essentially a, it is a largely blank slate, right? We know that human babies, compared to most other species, they're just completely inept. They can do nothing at all.

and that's because that brain is just ready to soak in all this information for the environment so that it can adapt and then it can be like perfectly honed to the environment that it ends up in. So for the first 1, 2, 3 decades of life, the human brain, like its job is to learn, right? Learn to walk, learn to talk, learn social skills, languages, motor patterns, right?

Then, in, in the formal education system, it doesn't have to happen in the formal education system, but right. Your job is then to go to school and then, you know, maybe it's col college and maybe it's to grad school. And we see that,the longer you spend in formal education. The higher and later the peak of cognitive function.

So basically the more time that our brain spends learning early in life, the be the better it functions. Because that's what the, that's what the developing brain is essentially designed to [00:41:00] do. It's designed to learn and just like soak up all this information. Now in the version of, uh, you know, the aging theory that says that aging is just the continuation of those developmental pathways.

What happens is that actually most of brain development is not building new pathways. It's getting rid of pathways that aren't needed based on the inputs that your brain receives. So actually, as your brain develops, you are removing cells and pathways. You're not adding them. and that's based on what your brain needs from about sort of three to five years old.

The brain is actually pruning, we call it pruning, removing cells and connections rather than adding them. So if as you get, you know, as you get older, you stop giving your brain inputs, it just starts removing more connections and cells because it's like, Hey, I don't need these. Like, why would I, why would I maintain this structure if it's not needed?

So the way to overcome that is to continue [00:42:00] to give the brain reasons to maintain and build connections by learning new things, right? Learning new skills, new experiences, new environments. And like you said, that's what we stop doing when we're adults. and I'll get, I'll sort of finish that thought in a second.

But then the other version of aging, and there are multiple theories of aging, but another one which just says, well, just like damage accumulates over time. Just because as you know, as we get older. What's interesting is that when we stimulate tissues, and so in the brain, that's cognitive stimuli, that's using our brains for co you know, learning, learning new things cognitively, uh, difficult tasks or in the body that's, you know, physical activity.

It's lifting weights, it's running stimulus of a tissue is what drives, you know, maintaining those tissues by like clearing up junky proteins and all these, all this damage that accumulates. So stimulus is what drives maintenance of tissues. So regardless of which theory of aging you ascribe to, the most important thing for preventing [00:43:00] aging of the brain is to continue to stimulate it, right?

and so when we leave education and we go to our jobs, what happens is we specialize. We do the same thing again and again and again and again, and we do the same workout again and again and again and again, and we speak the same language with the same people again and again and again. And we also societally.

Hate being bad at things. One of the worst things, like most people can imagine is like, I'm just gonna go out in front of a crowd of people I don't know, and I'm gonna do something and I'm gonna be bad at it. everybody just sort of like has this really icky feeling, just like thinking about it.

and so what, to actively push back against those forces of aging, we need to do exactly the opposite. New experiences, new skills, complex tasks, put ourselves in new environments. These are the things that are then gonna maintain the brain and prevent, prevent, you know, those aging processes.

Not prevent 'em entirely, but certainly slow them down. so then like what's, what's [00:44:00] the the, the kind of the answer for the audience? One is, some of this can come from your job if you're still at work. So we know that people with more complex jobs. They have a lower risk of dementia and cognitive decline than people who have less complex jobs.

So job complexity is like, are you problem solving, social interaction, like, all these kind of, uh, you know, new things that, that you maybe have to do on a day-to-day basis compared to, say if you're just doing the same thing again, again and again. Those people who have more complex jobs have better cognitive function later in life because they've had that ongoing kind of new stimulus.

and that actually,'cause I talked about education earlier, you see that having a more complex job later in life is actually protective if you just didn't happen to have a long period of schooling early in life. So it actually doesn't matter when you do these things with your brain. The brain will respond at any time.

And I think that's like a very important, like positive message that people know. But then sort of as you get older, if you're going into retirement, that's the time then to [00:45:00] really lean into picking up new skills, volunteering. Going out and doing new things, because there are several studies now that suggest that the retirement is the period of time when cognitive decline accelerates the most because you've removed that daily stimulus that you were getting from your work, and that comes from the people that you work with, but also the type of work that you did.

So it doesn't really matter what you do, you know, we've already listed a dozen things, right, that you could do. it could be a yoga class, it could be, an art class, it could be learning a language, it could be traveling, right? any of those things is gonna help to, you know, drive new connections, maintain the sort of age and function of the brain.

and there was some, there's actually a really nice study. There was a big meta-analysis that came out just a few weeks ago. And I'll tell you the name of it 'cause it's really cool. It's called Creative Experiences and Brain Clocks. It was published in Nature Communications and basically what they showed was that people learning or engaging in new [00:46:00] creative tasks, in randomized controlled trials saw changes in the areas of the brain that were, that, susceptible to age that sort of made their brains look and function as if they were younger.

And so things they included were like dancing, music, visual arts, and then even like video games as like a modern kind of stimulus. So there's a whole bunch of ways that you can do this, but just engaging in these new kind of creative skill learning experiences, that's what's really gonna be, you know, help to offset, you know, any decline that you might see as you get older.

Kush: So it sounds like it's almost like a double whammy, right? Like we are getting older. 

Mm-hmm. Like I, 

our more functions are slowing down and the level of challenge is also.

Declining. Yeah. Like, so I guess it's no wonder, it's no wonder that suddenly, you know, we we seem to find decrepitude staring us in our faces. because Yes. Like we stopped challenging ourselves and our bodies have also lost the [00:47:00] capacity. So I think what you said makes most sense that we need to keep finding ways to, yeah.

Find new activities, opportunities to keep learning. Is there any type of empirical data, evidence that you can share with us so that people really understand like how important and effective taking on this work is in helping cave off the. Acceleration or, and maybe even reverse in some ways, the, the effects of aging.

Dr Wood: So there, there were, uh, a few different ways to, to look at this. probably the, you know, if we, if we're thinking about, you know, long-term effects, a lot of this comes from observational sort of epidemiological data, right? We look at people, you know, what they're doing now, what they've done in the past, and then what their future looks like.

And so if you are, say [00:48:00] somebody, if you look at the effect of a cognitively stimulating job, right? So a cognitively stimulating career, you know, that might be years or, or decades compared to somebody with a less cognitively stimulating job. You might, your, your risk of dementia might be increased, you know, sort of 20, 30%.

it's difficult to like, put numbers, numbers on this, but that's quite, that's quite a lot. you know, the, the magnitude is, is actually fairly large. Often if you hear, You know, people say, you know, this is gonna reduce your risk of dementia by, you know, 70%. Like some people say that about sauna, that's prob like, that's just completely implausible, right?

it might have some benefit, but it's very unlikely that that's the only thing that's going on in that study. But, you know, these kind of large scales, I think we're seeing significant reductions in dementia risk by having these sort of like cognitive stimuli from day to day. in the shorter term, there are lots of studies on different types of, you know, skills and activities that I've mentioned.

Then significantly improving cognitive function in relatively short periods of time, right, if you're, if you're an older adult, so in these [00:49:00] studies they may be 60 or 65 up to 75 or 80, maybe a little bit older. right. You, you take up a new dance class and within a few months you've significantly improved your cognitive function compared to, you know, a control group.

That's a, that's a meaningful, that's a meaningful change, right? Because what I would expect is that your cognitive function is only gonna, you know, what we would expect is that only that your cognitive function is gonna go down. So anytime you see an intervention that improves cognitive function, and it's, it's important to have it compared to a control group because, because like people just get better at the test.

And that's not necessarily that your cognitive function got better, but, so you do have to have some kind of control group. But, in that age range, anything that improves function right, is by, just by nature preventing decline. And these are kind of important. So we've got that for dancing, we've got that for video games.

We've got that for music learning, we've got it for language learning. There are studies [00:50:00] in these groups for all of those different kinds of skills, studies that may be 12 weeks to, to six months of. learning, engaging in the process of learning these skills so we know they can meaningfully Im improve cognitive function.

the, probably the, one of the best studies that looked at this was a study, actually, it's quite old now. Uh, started in the nineties. Uh, one of the sites was at, uh, the University of, of Washington here in Seattle. or, you know, some of the researchers were here. It was called the active study. And what they did is they had, um, again, older adults in their,seventies on average.

And they had them, they had a control group and they, they had three different kind types of cognitive training. So some did, like memory training, which is kind of learning how to better remember things. So like mnemonics and, things like that. Um, there was a reasoning training group, so just like some verbal reasoning training.

And then there was a processing speed, group. Um, and so this is kind of, you are, you are on a computer screen now. This is like a. A pretty dated setup, 30 years ago or [00:51:00] something. but it basically involved you having to recognize things that happened that sort of flash up on a screen very, very quickly.

That's sort of like training your brain to deal with, you know, information that's coming you quickly, which we sort of do much less of as we, as we get older. In, like all three cognitive training groups in this study, like five years after the end of the study. And they only did it for a very short period of time.

It was like 10 weeks of training. Five years later, all three brain training groups had better quality of life compared to the control group, and particularly the processing speed training group. They were, more likely to still be driving, more likely to still be independent,over like several things that like really matter, right?

So like, if I talk about cognitive function and cognitive function tests, you're like, me, what does that really mean to me? But if you're in your seventies or eighties, and I'm, I'm like, well, the difference is you driving or not in five years time, right? that's a meaningful difference.

So there is actually just lots of evidence that doing some of these, you know, like adding these [00:52:00] new stimuli, training these new skills, like continuing to challenge our brains. can really add up to, to have meaningful effects over time, 

Kush: doctor, but hang on. So you're saying that 10 weeks of time in training time in the study 

Dr Wood: Yeah.

Kush: Had benefits that were tangible even as far down as five years. 

Dr Wood: Yeah. and it, that's powerful. They had, it's it's amazing, isn't it? And it's, I'm, I'm kind of surprised that people don't know more about this study. I think it's just because we always forget about research that was done like more than five years ago.

We're like, oh, that never existed. Um, but they, so they did have some booster sessions, but it was like a couple of sessions over a couple of years, like ver like very small amounts. I have no relationship to the company, but there is a company, called Brain HQ that does a brain training program. and [00:53:00] one of the programs that they have, one of the brain training, like games they have is called Double Decision, which is essentially the modern version of that same processing speed training that they did in, that they did in that study.

So I think that you can get those same benefits by doing all the other things that we talked about, right? You don't have to do brain training on a computer, but it's one option that we have access to. Um, that has actually been used in lots of studies now to improve cognitive function in individuals in that sort of like 60 to 85-year-old kind of range.

Kush: Dr. Wood, I've heard you talk about this thing called. Cognitive reserve, right? Mm-hmm. Which I think you have talked about in different ways through this conversation. And I am wondering if there is a sweet spot of difficulty, not too easy, not too overwhelming, that builds this reserve [00:54:00] the best.

Dr Wood: Uh, yes. you're right. If we, if we're trying to think about long term, protecting our brains long term, maintaining function, long term. There are, uh, a few things that are kind of built into that in the research. One is reserve, which you mentioned, and there's a, there's two forms of reserve.

One is cognitive reserve, which is basically the software. The other is brain reserve, which is the, the hardware. The brain reserve is basically how much brain do you have in your skull, because like we know we're gonna lose brain over time, just like you're gonna lose muscle mass over time. The more you can start with the better, and the more you can keep the better.

so there's brain reserve, cognitive reserve, and then there's resilience, which is as we get older, our brains accumulate proteins of pathology. People who have heard of amyloid and tau, those are related to Alzheimer's disease, but actually multiple dementias and they can accumulate in the brain for a whole range of reasons.

And. A resilient brain is one that can still function, even if some of those things accumulate, which [00:55:00] they just will do over time, right? Everybody who gets into the eighties and nineties is gonna have some amyloid in their brain regardless, right? Even if the, and they may function cognitively completely normally.

So the way to build, resilience and reserve, there's actually a lot of overlap. So exercise helps to build both reserve, particularly in terms of brain reserve. We know that the exercise can increase or promote, you know, help support the size of certain areas of the brain, right?

We talked about the hippocampus earlier, and we know that it also helps with resilience. So if you do develop some pathology in the brain, if you exercise regularly, your brain is less likely to develop like an inflammatory action or something that might then negatively impact cognitive function in terms of, uh, then cognitive reserve.

And so. Having greater capacity in those grain networks and all those, all those things are kind of interrelated. But, you know, thinking about challenge, cognitive challenge as a way to build cognitive reserve, then I [00:56:00] would think about it very similarly, to, to how I would think about exercise, right? there were kind of two levels of, of difficulty and things that we might do.

So one is like, what what's something you can do every day? You can do regularly? Like, so go for a jog, going for a walk, right? We, we have these things that we kind of do this kinda our baseline level of activity. That's the kind of baseline level of challenge your brain might. See on a day-to-day basis.

And that's, that's where it comes from. The work, our work, our social interaction, all those kinds of things. But then there's those sessions where you're like really pushing yourself, right? That's, when I was a, like an endurance athlete, you might call them breakthrough sessions. It's kind of like when you worked really hard, you kind like pushed at the edge of your current capacity, right?

That's when you really start to develop. You start to adapt and, and develop,you know, an improvement in capacity. And the sweet spot really depends on a couple of things. So one is how good are you at this already? and most of the benefits of learning happen you relatively early [00:57:00] on in your exposure to this specific thing.

So if we think about all these different studies I mentioned earlier in terms of, you know, language or, uh. Physical activity or music, right? You're, it's people who haven't done a lot of that in the past, and they're doing it for something like three to six months, right? That's when you get the biggest delta, right?

Um, so the, the newer it is to you, like more novelty, it's a skill you just don't have already. That's probably where you're gonna see some of the, the biggest gains and where some of the biggest benefits of challenge. and then, and because beyond that, there is some evidence that if we get really, really, really good at one thing, our brain then becomes less good at something else.

And that's, that's fine. It's not a good thing or a bad thing, it's just, well, our brain's adapting to what we expose them to. I can give you an example of that if you want, but, the, the next thing is it needs to be hard and it needs to feel hard, but it not need it, it can't be that there's no opportunity for progress, right?

So if I [00:58:00] went into the gym and it was my bench press day and somebody put 405 pounds on the bar. What am I even doing here? I'm not gonna lift that. I can't. so it needs to be like, I, I've been asked this, I, I can never give a good answer to this question. I know, like, I remember I once did a podcast and then somebody put a clip, they asked like, how good you need to get or how hard does it need to be?

And then I, like, I gave the waffling answer that I'm giving right now, and then they posted their clip on Instagram and everybody's like, you didn't answer the question. I was like, because I don't actually have a really quantitative answer to the question, but it basically needs to be hard enough that you can't complete it perfectly, but not so hard that you can't do it at all.

That is your answer, but it's gonna completely depend on all those kind of things that I've mentioned already. 

Kush: That again, makes sense. And I was just thinking maybe there's an example of somebody trying to learn a new language. So let's say somebody wants to learn Spanish and they. They've just [00:59:00] learned a few words and they're suddenly dumped into a corner of Guatemala.

Yeah. And, find themselves in a completely immersed environment. So I can imagine that, you know, the first couple days, first couple of weeks are going to be enormously challenging 

When they have to learn how to make themselves understood. But then slowly that challenge will dwindle down as they start becoming more comfortable.

And I can then also think of maybe and illustration when maybe a challenge is too hard when you, you find yourself in a place where you don't know any language at all. 

Mm-hmm. 

And it just becoming, it just becomes too hard and you find you have to like, evacuate yourself. So, and maybe that just comes with practice.

Like one just has to just get in the habit of. Of undertaking new challenges to learn what is that level of, uh, [01:00:00] difficulty mm-hmm. That one can kind of cope with. One is getting pushed, but there is just enough growth and excitement of progress. 

Yeah. To 

keep one reved up for the next. and just for fun, Dr.

Put in your own life, what is something new that you have learned recently that stretched you mentally? 

Dr Wood: so something that I've done, uh, a lot of recently, and I I, I kind of mentioned this in passing earlier, is learning how to code. I, it's not something I ever did, uh, before. It's not something I ever really needed for my job, even as a professor.

But then at some point, I taught myself how to code in R because that's really important for statistical analysis and these other things. So that involved, it's basically the, there's a, I have some friends who study code learning, and it's similar to learning a new, new language. You have to learn new syntax and, phrases and all these kinds of things.

And, one, one sort of example of that kind of, that feeling that we [01:01:00] feel if we're like failing is that I start, I sort of inserted myself into a group of statisticians who are working on clinical trials. And I had like, I'm not a statistician. I had no, no business being there at least to, to start with.

But, you know, we're, we're working on some of these analysis and kind of like we're on, we're on Zoom and I'm sharing my screen and I'm like coding in real time while like professors of biostatistics are watching. and that is exactly that kind of, that's exactly that kind of scenario where, where it's just like you imagine being.

You're, you're in a language class and that you are like, you're stuck at the front of the class and you have to like, speak Spanish with the teacher. And you've Right, you've never spoken Spanish before. that's something that I've, like for many of the reasons that we've talked about, I sort of put myself in that scenario so that I was forced to learn and, you know, you need it to be,a safe environment, right?

Like I, I had a good relationship and I trusted the people that I was working with my colleagues, right? it would be, you know, it's, it's, if it had been a, a room [01:02:00] full of strangers, it wouldn't have been quite, quite the same thing. But, so it needs to be hard, but you still need to feel safe enough that you're sort of willing to kind of put yourself out there.

I think that that's kind of part of that, that sweet spot, sweet spot thing. 

Kush: Well, congratulations on, learning 

Dr Wood: to 

Kush: code.

I know that we have gone back and forth between physical exercise and the brain, and maybe that's okay because. I think what this conversation is showing us is that they really are so closely interlinked. 

I have one more question about physical exercise, which is, what is that balance between endurance and intensity?

At the beginning we spoke about like three different types. 

Mm-hmm. But 

for somebody who's, let's say 45 versus somebody who's, let's say 65, what type of balance should they again, strive for? Everything else being [01:03:00] somewhat equal? 

Dr Wood: So if you look at, the literature on developing cardiovascular fitness, two things kind of come out.

So a lot of the benefits come from just like the area under the curve of intensity times time. So this is not necessarily applicable to like the most elite athletes who need to really think about training, multiple intensities, at multiple levels, you know, periodizing their training in a certain way.

But for like the average individual, essentially it's a product of intensity times time. So if you have less time, you make it more intense. if you have more time, you should still do some stuff that's more intense, right? There's a reason why like intensity matters. I mentioned earlier like lactate has specific benefits for the brain, say that you wouldn't get with less I intense exercise.

But if you have more time, you can afford to do more low intensity stuff. Of course, by the caveat being [01:04:00] that don't do stuff that's likely to injure yourself, but equally, most of us are capable. We worry more about injuries maybe than we need to. Like most of us are more capable than, than we think we are.

that's the real answer, is it, it depends on your time. If you have less time, do more intense stuff. If you have more time, you can like, you know, keep a little bit of, of high intensity stuff and, and then you can add more, more low intensity stuff. if you've never done anything, I would build up to that.

Right? There is, like I said, there are studies where just like starting to walk, brisk walking three times a week, right? Will have a significant benefit in somebody who's never done it before, but then over time you start to build in, you start to build some intensity. So maybe the end of that walk you do, it'll sprint or something like that, and you start to build up.

I think in reality you can tailor that to what the time that you have available. the, where I've seen people go wrong is, and this is very common in amateur athletes across multiple sports, is that. They [01:05:00] take something like I just said, I was like, intensity is better. I did say some version of that, and they're like, okay, I can just do, gonna do high intensity all the time.

It's gonna be intense all day every day. That's not what I said. and so often what happens is people spend all the, all right, they're like, I wanna go running every day. And in order for it to be beneficial, it's gotta be an hour and it's gotta be hard, right? That is a one-way ticket to stress fractures and over training.

so if you have the time to train an hour or multiple hours a day, a good bulk of that time should be at a lower intensity. it shouldn't be really hard all the time. and so like that's the one, that's the one sort of caveat we have to take into account. And I've, I mean, I've worked with probably at this point, thousands of amateur athletes and that's the most consistent, That I see is that they assume that the key to more performance is more [01:06:00] intensity, and then they just end up getting themselves in trouble. 

Kush: The longer I stay in my sports, the longer I think I start appreciating the importance of rest. Yeah. And being fully prepared. you've been an athlete for a long time.

Do you work with a coach or a trainer that actually helps you put together the type of loads you need 

Dr Wood: to? Yes. Yeah, so I've, I've co I've coached. Yeah. Several hundred if not thousands of athletes. And I still have my own coach. He does all my own programming. I talk to him every week about how I'm feeling, you know, over a period of time.

And we're preparing for a competition. I might be tracking certain things for him, like sleep or heart rate variability. but yeah, I find it very helpful to have somebody else to tell me, tell me what to do. 

Kush: Okay. So this is important. I think many people find that they don't need a coach. 

[01:07:00] Particularly in a day like this, when you can find all kinds of information on your fingertips through the internet. So why is having a trainer or a coach important for one's own practice? 

Dr Wood: I'm not saying that everybody needs a coach, right? And they can be expensive, right? I compete in a particular sport, it's useful for me to have expert knowledge from somebody who knows that sport very well.

He is very experienced in that particular sport that, that helps me a lot, right? Those kind of intangible kind of, this is how you should prepare for the competition. Like, beware of this thing, here's the technique on this particular lift, right? That's something that I find useful. but another thing is, uh, decision is decision fatigue, right?

So for several years I was just like, okay, I'm gonna go to the gym today and like today's probably leg day. Okay, what am I gonna do? Like maybe I'll do some squats and then I'll do some lunges, and then, then what should I do after that? So [01:08:00] not having to worry about that helps me a lot, right? I'm in meetings and podcasts and doing research and writing papers from like 7:00 AM until at least four or 5:00 PM and then, then I go to the gym.

Just knowing that somebody else is taking care of my programming helps me a lot. so that, that's important too. And then the, the final thing, is that I think it helps you to periodize and structure your trainings. the alternative is that I would just go too hard or not hard enough, right?

We are picking that sort of level of intensity and volume and, and getting that balance, right? All of this stuff, people can do what you can do with apps and you know, you can, there are lots of people who will sell you a, you know, a $20 program. That's very good. the, the main thing you need to do is make sure you follow it.

um, when I was a, when I was a rower, this was something that I fell foul of, which was that if I had a session and it was like a 60 minute, we would call it UT two, which [01:09:00] is basically like zone two on a rowing machine, 60 minutes. It's supposed to be very low level kind of part recovery, part adaptation kind of stuff.

Sort of like help just build an aerobic base. When you sit eight, 20 something year old guys in a room next to each other trying to do that session, all of a sudden it becomes who can crush themselves as hard as possible for 60 minutes. That's not what the session intended. So if you actually do what the program says, then you right, you don't need to coach, right?

You can have a very good program and if it's like today is a, today is an hour's run and it's zone two it, you should actually do zone two. And if that feels very easy, that's great because then you are well prepared to do a harder session later in the week. So you don't need a coach. Right. And you can get access to these programs.

Some of 'em are very good right now in the age of ai, this stuff is very accessible. You can ask [01:10:00] chat GBT to write your program. It would probably pretty good. but the important thing is to actually do what the program says. rather than just like constantly trying to push the limit. And so having a coach that helps me like track that I find useful, but you don't need a coach to do it.

You, there are other ways you can do that. 

Yeah. Appreciate the, uh, the nuance there. Uh, the clarification. Yes. Uh, the important thing is, is to find some kind of program either come up with the program itself or with somebody else. Mm-hmm. But it is important to follow that program and stick to it to be able to see results.

Kush: Yeah. 

In the medium and long term. Dr. Wood. Moving on, I wanted to get into talking about fuel, like metabolic health. And nutrition for the aging body, the aging brain. And you have said that metabolic health, like how efficiently our body [01:11:00] uses energy, is this really strong predictor of like long-term brain performance.

So for those of us who are not scientists, how would we know if our metabolism is in a good place? 

Dr Wood: Yeah. there, there's a, a lot of discussion in terms of how nuance you can get in this and, and sort of like the depth of the markers that you might measure in blood tests and things. but actually the vast majority of the evidence, really suggests that the sort of good metabolic health.

At its most basic level, and I think this is something that if, if, if we were able to achieve this, we've, uh, minimized the majority of our risk related to metabolic disease. And, you know, long-term cognitive decline, dementia, the goal is simply to avoid having any of the criteria of metabolic syndrome.

So metabolic syndrome is a thing that your doctor [01:12:00] will diagnose based on some very basic blood tests and your blood pressure. if you don't have high blood pressure, so that's, uh, blood pressure over like one 30 over 85. So if your blood pressure is below that, you're good. If you don't have high blood sugar, so your fasting blood sugar is below a hundred milli milligrams per deciliter, or, 5.6 5.7 hba one c.

You're good. People will argue that like lower might be better, but in terms of the evidence we have, the two most important factors are don't have high blood sugar, so don't have pre-diabetes. So that's fasting blood sugar above a hundred don't have high blood pressure, right? Then, the next things that are important in metabolic syndrome are, uh, HDL cholesterol.

So low HDL is a risk factor. High triglycerides is a risk factor. and then an increased waist circumference. So it's above, like depending on a little bit on, uh, ancestry, but also, uh, sex, a waist circumference in sort of like above, sort of in the nineties or a hundred centimeters, right?

[01:13:00] then you're at, you're at higher risk as well. So if you just, avoid those things. Then, or if you have them, you're working to reverse them. And, and most of 'em are reversible with improving diet, improving body composition, increasing physical activity, then actually that's the vast majority, of your risk mitigated.

And these are all things that your doctor will measure. These are all things that that can be addressed in various ways, either with lifestyle or with medications if needed. And I think that's enough for the vast majority of people to sort of prevent, any risk there. 

Kush: It sounds like the net takeaway is that we just need to get ourselves just tested regularly for these biomarkers because I unfortunate that most people don't know that their insurance plans.

Yeah, often covers interested in that. Your insured, 

Dr Wood: your insurance should cover all of that. None of that is fancy or expensive. Your doctor should just be able to do it there. There's obviously right, I spent a lot of time looking at blood tests and there's a lot more that could be done, but if we're talking about metabolic health and dementia risk, those basics [01:14:00] will get you the majority of the weight.

Kush: Sure. I don't want to dwell on this too much further, but I thought I would just ask you like, what are some small daily habits that actually can improve our broad metabolic health? like there's things we could, like, again, maybe in terms of like training intensity, maybe sleep consistency, maybe managing stress.

Uh, do you have any thoughts on that? 

Dr Wood: Yeah, all of the above. You, like, again, you question, A lot of the reasons why some of the, you know, these different lifestyle factors may affect cognitive function is through this kind of effect on metabolic health. So we know that if people aren't sleeping enough, so like chronic, especially like, chronically sleeping fewer than six hours a day, you have an increased risk of, increased risk of, uh, metabolic disease.

You have an increased risk of, of dementia. Uh, so like higher blood pressure, higher blood sugar, um, chronic stress certainly plays a role. some of that can [01:15:00] be like, how do we approach stresses? So like how we think about stress as an important part of it, but also can we remove or modify some of those stresses that we're exposed to?

Can we improve our resilience to stresses? That's where things like exercise can definitely help improve resilience to stress. Other sort of mindfulness and meditation techniques can, can, and, uh, breath work techniques can improve our resilience to stress. physical activity. Uh, certainly the, the, the more active you are, the better your blood sugar control, the better your blood pressure.

gaining muscle mass seems to improve a lot of things to do with blood sugar regulation, as, as well. so that's another one. yeah, so those, those are probably the main, the main ones. Sleep, stress, physical activity, and then the last one being, being diet. So a, a big component of metabolic disease is something that I call excess energy availability.

And I call it that because. Athletes understand low energy availability, right? That's what happens when you aren't fueling enough to cover all the activity you're doing. But there's [01:16:00] essentially like a, an inverted u-shaped curve in terms of brain health and metabolic health, right? So eating too little is bad, but then having high energy availability, like too much energy also can have some detrimental effects.

So that's, you know, just making sure that you are fueling appropriately for your, for your needs. So that may require tinkering with your diet, so that you can sustainably eat more or fewer calories depending on which side of, of that you rely on getting, you know, whilst getting enough, a adequate protein, adequate nutrients to kind of do all the other jobs.

Um, those are the big levers in terms of metabolic health, related to lifestyle. 

Kush: Beautiful, a lot of common sense stuff, but again, stuff that gets, gets overlooked, all the time. I mean, people. People want like fancy answers when the answers hard. Sorry. No, 

Dr Wood: no fancy answers from me.

Yeah. 

Kush: Last part of the conversation, just kind of bringing this together and talking about motivation and [01:17:00] identity. And you have likely seen a lot of people from elite performers to maybe even, even patients who hit a wall in midlife. So when someone's lost momentum or identity after injury or life events or burnout, where do you begin?



Dr Wood: so I think one of the, maybe a place to start is to buffer against that ever happening in, in the future as much. as much as possible, right? a very good, friend and mentor of mine, Simon Marshall. Um, he was a behavioral psychologist and he had this idea of, um, uh, identity diversification, right?

So, you know, like if you're investing, you diversify your portfolio, right? You don't wanna invest just in one thing, so that stock crashes, you've lost all your money. So you, in, you invest in mul in multiple places. And he would say the same thing about [01:18:00] personal identity, because what can often happen is, you're right, we get this stuck in this identity.

Like, my job is my ident identity, or my sport is my identity. And then when you lose that, you've got nothing. So investing in, and like this is all about talking to yourself. Like, what do I identify as? So I identify as an athlete, I identify as a professor, I identify as a dog dad, I identify as a husband, right?

I identify as a scientist if I said that already, right? I will struggle, of course, if I lose any of those, but I'm buffered against that because I have these other identities that I can lean into. So that's literally just again, related to the story we tell ourselves. Uh, but you can also use that in order to overcome losses of identity.

And some of it starts with, you create, you essentially, you create the identity first, right? So if you want to be somebody who does a certain sport or physical activity, right? [01:19:00] The first thing that you have to believe in yourself is, I am somebody who does physical activity. I'm, I'm somebody who does exercise, right?

You don't have to identify as the level, right? A level of expertise or level of performance, but you're like, I'm somebody who, I'm a, I'm a runner. I am somebody who, who runs, right? Believing that in yourself. Is a first step towards then actively engaging in that process because what happens most of the time And like, this is one of those things where it's simple, but it's not easy.

Right. Yeah. Well, it's great, Tommy, you just tell me that. I tell myself I'm a runner and then I'll suddenly believe it. No, it's, it's obviously requires, a little bit more sort of investment in that. But what you usually see people say is, and this is the same with all the things that we've talked about already.

Oh, I just can't learn languages. Oh, I'm not a runner. You know, I, I, oh, I hate the gym. Oh, I'm terrible at music. not, not only 

Kush: that, uh, you start like poo-pooing other people who like to go to the gym Yeah. [01:20:00] Or who like to go and do activities because, because maybe in your mind, you know, you don't think you're worthy of those things.

Dr Wood: yeah. Exactly. So, so the first, the first thing, right? And this can require a lot of work. I'm, I'm not diminishing the amount of work that this can require like psychologically, but first of all, believing that you are worth these things, like you are like believing that you belong in a gym.

if it's a gym, and like this has been a big issue for, a wide range of people, right? Where for a long time we just believe like a certain type of man goes to the gym and that's the only person who goes to the gym, right? And if you're a, if you're a woman, you have to go to the cardio section, right?

Complete, not complete nonsense. So. And I, there's societal and individual work that has to sort of be done here. But the first thing is believing that you belong and believing that you deserve it, and then believing that you are, that you are or can be that kind of person. and so a lot of motivation does follow action, [01:21:00] so you can't sit around and wait to be motivated 'cause it, it is not gonna happen.

There'll always be something else that you can do. So I think something else that sort of, again, I'm, I'm not a psychologist. Sometimes I play one on the internet. but the doing the thing is the easiest way to become motivated to do the thing, right? Um, so that is, you put on your shoes and you just take, take a step outside and you start moving your feet in front of one another and all of a sudden you're jogging or you just like show up at the gym and like, you just pick up some weights and like, Hey, all of a sudden you're a weightlifter.

I think those, those are things that, that can be used and, and things that you can think about. When we're thinking about motivation and identity, 

Kush: again, very elegant. I keep telling my friends who are athletes, even telling myself that it is important to sometimes pick up something more sedentary that gives my life a bit more meaning then, you know, when I get [01:22:00] injured or people can't go running because their knees are buckling.

Because if you lose that and you are too concentrated in your identity towards success in that one thing, it can lead to, mental, loss of purpose and that can have other issues. So I think it is important to be able to do a bunch of different things, like you said, where if you just have things backing up, the other thing.

okay. You spent your career studying the brain across the lifespan, across infant or adults. Here's one closing question. When you imagine yourself at, let's say, 18 and 90, what would driving look like for you, Dr. Wood? 

Dr Wood: that's a very interesting question. I, I would like to still, I think sort of 80 90, Two things. I, I would like to still actually do many of the things that I, I do today. I [01:23:00] know they will look slightly different, but one of the reasons that I do the sport, that I do the activity, you know, the, the work that I do, I think it's something that I can continue to do and I will continue to enjoy for, you know, several decades into the future.

And so being able to continue to do those things, spend time with my wife, my family, spending time doing my statistics in r whatever that looks like in four decades time. being able to go in, pick up a heavy barbell, whatever that looks like for me in four or five decades time. that's, that's really it.

I think, a lot of my personal work and what I would like to allow other, you know, help other people to do is. Essentially maintain the things that they enjoy or do new things that they enjoy and, and be able to do that for decades into the future. So I'm very lucky that most of the stuff that I do right now is stuff that I would like to continue to do.

And so that's really what, what thriving looks like, is maintaining that level of function for decades into the future. And that's, that's hopefully, you know, with all the stuff that we've talked about today, is, is something that, that everybody has a, a much greater chance of achieving, [01:24:00] 

Kush: beautiful start doing today.

Those activities you wanna do a few decades from now. Exactly. Yeah. Dr. Wood, you have this exciting new book coming up. Congratulations. 

Dr Wood: Thanks. 

Kush: Can you just quickly tell us what that book is about and when can myself and our listeners get a hold of that book? 

Dr Wood: thank you. The, the book is called The Stimulated Mind.

it comes out, which might maybe not surprising considering I've, I've spent a lot of time today talking about stimulus. it comes out of March 24th, 2026. You can buy it already. and if you are very interested, I would very much appreciate it if, if you did pre-order it and you can order it wherever you normally buy books.

because that does then help people realize that, the publisher and stuff realize that the people are interested in the book. if you do buy it early, then I will, in the future, everybody's bought the book early. I'll, I'll send them some, some, some goodies that will sort of come, those will come early next year, um, like some, uh, excerpts from the book and, some, some webinars and a few other things.

but if [01:25:00] you go to the stimulated mind.com or dr tommy wood.com, which is my website, uh, you can find, you can find all the details there. 

Kush: Beautiful. I cannot wait to pre-order the book. Dr. Wood, thank you for making the science approachable for the rest of us. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

Dr Wood: Thank you so much for having me. Uh, this was, this was so much fun. I really, really appreciate it.