How to Stay Strong Into Your 70s — Lessons From Five Decades on the World’s Highest Mountains

Ageless Athlete - Steve Swenson
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Kush: [00:00:00] Steve, I always like to start off with this question, which is, where are you right now and what did you have for breakfast this morning? 

Steve: Um, I'm in Seattle, Washington, and I had a smoothie with my protein powder in it. And, uh, and a bagel. 

Kush: That's, uh, delicious breakfast, actually. I love bagels. What's your favorite kind?

Steve: Sesame. 

Kush: Sesame. Okay. Lovely. Is Seattle known for its, uh, it's bagels? 

Steve: I don't think so, particularly. Not anymore than New York or something like that, but Okay. You can buy nice bagels here. 



Kush: yeah, for sure. Um, it's a big city. It's a big city. You can get anything, you know, it's a big city. You can get anything.

Speaker 5: Yeah. 

Kush: Steve, you've been climbing for decades, but [00:01:00] I would love to have you speak in your words for our listeners. If someone asked you who you are as a climber, what you have been chasing all these years, how would you describe it? 

Steve: What I've been chasing all these years? 

Kush: Yes. 

Steve: Well, I don't think I've really been chasing anything.

I think that for some reason, you know, when I was quite young, I just became quite enamored with mountain landscapes. My parents didn't really do anything like mountain climbing or backpacking or really, outdoor recreation or really sports of any kind. I wasn't really good at any ball sports.

and I really, had a real thirst in, you know, for adventure, you know, and exploring from when I was quite young. to me that sort of combination of [00:02:00] wanting to explore and loving that mountainous areas and, envisioning myself up on big high peaks where I could see for miles and miles was very exciting to me.

Kush: Steve, I read that as a kid you were inspired by timing books that they gave you a window into what was possible. Uh. I can relate. I was a voracious reader, uh, I guess a bookworm of sorts when I was young and I was daydreaming about, mountains. I was just, yeah, just, riveted 





Kush: can you take us back to those early years on how reading helped lit that fire for you? 

Steve: Oh, it was amazing because, um, actually kind of where it [00:03:00] started, what, what I really got interested in reading to begin with were,



Steve: you know, quite thick. uh, nonfiction books about Arctic and Antarctic exploring.

So reading about Amon and Scott and, all of those Shackleton, Shackleton and, you know, Mosson and all that stuff was, I just ate that stuff up and I was quite young. I, I was reading those, you I was maybe seven or eight years old and I was reading these, um, you know, 300 page adult nonfiction books that I would get from the library and they'd only check 'em out for a month.

And I wouldn't always get through 'em. Maybe I'd get halfway through them in a month, you know, uh, at that age. but I just, you know, it really gave me this, it really kind of fed that, that lust that I had for, you know, getting out in nature and experiencing, uh. the elements and that, you know, that, that environment [00:04:00] in a, in a real dramatic way.

And that kind of started it. And, um, there was a very nice librarian on the Bookmobile that came around our, to our school every month that knew that I was interested in those books. And I would get there and she'd go, oh, Steve, have a book for you this month. so that librarian was very helpful in to me and in sort of with what, with what I was interested in reading and, and that I just described.

Kush: I mean, those days, you know, when one, just one didn't have any book or any kind of music at one's fingertips. And I think the anticipation of waiting for that right book, I think that, yeah, the just heightened. Experience plus the fact that we did not have devices back then. So once you grabbed a book, you know, you were allowed to get lost [00:05:00] between those pages for a long time.

Steve: Yeah. 



Steve: my parents subscribed to National Geographic and I think in the early sixties, you know, they had the big spread on Americans, on Everest, and, I was probably, oh, I don't know, nine years old when that happened, and I saw that and I go, I want to do that.

To me, that just looked like, you, you could be an outer space or something, you know, those mountains looked so huge and so formidable and so. Other worldly that I was just like, oh yeah, that's what I want to do. I want to, I wanna climb mountains like that. what I, just looking around my neighborhood, I was like, I, I was growing up in Seattle, so you had the Cascade Mountains nearby.

And, uh, there was a friend of mine at school who, um, was uh, a member of a Boy Scout troop that was in the neighborhood. And I waited until I was 11 years old, he had to be 11 to do the, be in the Boy Scouts. I didn't want to be [00:06:00] in the Cub Scouts and like do crafts arts and craftsy stuff. I wanted to go out.

So I waited until I was 11 and I joined the Boy Scouts and I was fortunate to get involved in a very. Active troop that, you know, we went hiking every month. In the summer. We had a 50 mile hike we did in the Cascades or on the Olympic beach coast or someplace. Every year I'd go to Boy Scout camp and things like that.

And, and when I was 14, one of the scout leaders made a deal with, by then you were kind of an older scout that if we stuck with it, if we didn't quit, he would take us climbing 'cause he was a climber. And, uh, be, be, it was this deal that said, if you stay around and help with the younger kids, in the troop, I'll take you climbing.

And so I started, you know, climbing, uh, volcanoes, in the Pacific Northwest, uh, when I was 14. I climbed Mountain Rainier when I was 14 and I think, and I, I thought I died and went to heaven. [00:07:00] 

Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, 

Steve: yeah. 



Kush: I guess maybe that was that turning point when you realize that. this was beyond just, uh, reading about these adventures, you were beginning to start leading a life of your own, 

Steve: right?

Yeah, and it was a, it was a, it was a life of my own and kind of separate from my family and my parents and, lovely people, but they were very religious and I wasn't religious. I could, I knew at a very young age, I wasn't religious. It didn't make sense to me. And so it sort of also gave me an avenue to sort of, kind of create my own sort of path for myself that that didn't involve that.

Kush: You mentioned your family besides being not religious, they were not particularly outdoorsy. No. And, uh, what did they make of This interest in you, this fire in you to do something that was a bit different than needy, [00:08:00] what they imagined for you? 

Steve: you can probably imagine a little bit, you're from India, where maybe, you know, kind of family traditions, you know, and what you're expected of you is, um, maybe even a little bit more strict than America.

and so I had a lot of that, but maybe not as much as some place, some of the maybe things that you might have grown up with. my parents, when I was in Boy Scouts, it was okay because it was Boy Scouts, you know, they didn't really know what I was doing, you know, they didn't really know what I was learning.

But as soon as I got into college and I was doing, and I was. You know, like really passionate about it. Then they started to get worried because they, they thought I was gonna get hurt or they thought I was gonna get killed, and so they were not supportive.

Kush: Yeah, no, for sure. Uh, Indian culture is, uh, even back then, or maybe back then even more [00:09:00] so, was more conservative. I, I was fortunate though that my family would take us backpacking in the Himalayas when I was young. that was, yeah, that was a big part of my dad's ambitions to expose us to the mountains.

But yeah, maybe similarly they did not expect that this would become this, uh, overarching passion. One interesting thing about the culture in India, and you have spent so much time in that part of the world, is that the mountains in some ways are part. The traditions, the history, the lore. And there are lots of like, pilgrimage.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Like, 

Steve: like to the Ganges and 

Kush: to the Ganges and all those different spots. Yeah. So, so it, so the, yeah. The mountains are reved in a way. But for sure, like, not beyond that. If you, if you are like like an urban family, you might,



Kush: [00:10:00] humor it to some degree.

You might even encourage it. But then if your path to the mountains or to adventure takes you away from like the more understood path Yeah. Of following, mainstream professions, you know, then, then that becomes a little, little difficult. 



Kush: that was the same with me.

Save with you have. Yeah. So interesting. 

See, you have been on peaks that even non climbers know about. Right? climbed Everest, climbed K two. So rather than going down that list, I would love to hear you tell a story, maybe one climb that when you look back, still captures the essence of who you are and, and why you climbed.





Steve: that's a, a good question. I think that the longer, 



Steve: my, as I said earlier, my initial attraction to the mountains, you know, was, 



Steve: For adventure, you know, to go into this other [00:11:00] worldly landscape that was complicated and it was spectacular and it was beautiful and, 



Steve: but then to sort of the, the craft, you know, of Alpinism to sort of really be able to,achieve the kinds of goals that, that I wanted to, that over time what I realized was a kind of a byproduct of that desire was.

was becoming more important than the thing itself. And, and that though the byproduct was kind of a set of values that went with it, like partnership, fortitude, creativity, independence,things like that, that you really had to work on in order to be successful and also to stay alive.



Steve: they're, they're in, they were inseparable. and I could see around me that, you know, with different partners I had or other groups that when they had issues or problems [00:12:00] with they, what, with what they were trying to do in the mountains, you could really, if you kind of peeled back the onion a little bit.

Those were values-based issues that were causing it, you know, to happen in the first place. And, you know, so for me it, it's not only been this, 



Steve: journey to, kind of explore new places and, and do more difficult climbs, but also to kind of achieve that sort of almost like perfect like partnership, you know, that relationship, you know, with your, you know, with, with your teammates, how you make decisions, you know, how you work with local people.

how, you know, just, just how you kind of learn the whole craft, you know, to put all together a whole lot of complex pieces to have them kind of fall in place in, in a, in a way that, that just. [00:13:00] Just really clicked to me, is extremely satisfying. And, uh, I think the climb that, that I did a few years ago on Linkar when we did the first set of SR, felt like that.



Kush: You make such an excellent point 



Kush: it is 



Kush: Diverse number of activities that have to be orchestrated to be able to bring it all together. Because yes, you could be the most 



Kush: competent climb in the world. But if you are not able to bring the right team together, if you're not able to complete 



Kush: planning in a way that helps optimize for success, it'll never come to pass.

And even more than that, like you pointed, you were accomplishing these

sets in some of the most difficult. parts of the world, and not just difficult [00:14:00] because of the terrain and the magnitude of the climb, but because of the social political conditions that required the most delicate type of maneuvering. 

And I do wanna ask you about some of those interactions and those cultures, Steve, but let's continue probing you a little bit about, taking us into one of those climbs. And I thought maybe I would ask you this, you climbed Mount Everest without supplemental oxygen, and I think you did that for some other big peaks as well.



Kush: were you doing something of a first of its kind when you first started doing these things without the aid of oxygen? 



Steve: well let's see. When I climbed Everest without oxygen, I would've been the fifth American.

But the five Americans [00:15:00] that had climbed Everest without supplemental oxygen, me being the fifth, I think all five of us did it within a couple year period. You know? So it was all kind of, it was, it was relatively new kind of thing. in America, I think that, I'm not a hundred percent sure, but I think worldwide I would've been number 50, to have climbed Everest without supplemental oxygen.

So still not a lot of people that were doing it then. I think in some ways, big mountains like Everson, K two, maybe you wanna talk about this later, have become, become so commercialized that they've actually reverted, a mountain like K two was first climb of oxygen, first to a sense, and then.

With the Americans in the third ascent in 78. And then for years after that, no one was using supplemental oxygen on the K two. And then now, now that it's become a commercial mountain, now everybody's [00:16:00] using oxygen again. What I think sort of funny than sometimes you'll get, you know, a younger climber now that'll, that'll say, gee, you know, I did, you know, K two, no O2.

And I'm like, well, that's great, you know, but you know that that was the norm. You know, that's not anything really that new, you know, that was the norm, you know, for, for, you know, probably through the eighties and the nineties and the, you know, the first decade of the 21st century. yeah, I, yeah,I think the two mountains where having supplemental oxygen, probably.



Steve: it 



Steve: is a, is a big help is on Everson K two. They're just so much higher. I think other 8,000 meter peaks,it's not, not quite so difficult the last six, 800 meters, without oxygen is a huge big deal. 

Kush: Sure. 



Kush: most people can barely breed hiking up something a bit more pedestrian like, like a [00:17:00] 14 fourteener,



Kush: here in the us.



Kush: what does it actually feel like being up there without oxygen? What's happening in your body? What's happening in your mind? 

Steve: Well, we probably get into a conversation about training and things like that later, but, but in terms of how I felt, you know, it's been a while now, you know, 30, 40 years for some of this 35 years, uh, since we, since I climbed K two, uh, and, um, 31 years since I climbed Everest.

a lot of these other first ascentis 7,000 meter peaks and the korma are things that I did much more recently, but those climbs back then. as I recall, what, when you get that hypoxic, it feels like someone just took this sort of, um, 



Steve: like a little bit of a haze over your brain. like just like [00:18:00] a, Like a shawl. Somebody took this shawl that, that had little holes in it or something. Just something that everything's not quite, takes the edge off of everything. you know, you, your brain is moving way slower. it's not a good idea to be trying to make difficult decisions when you're that hypoxic.

'cause you're not, It's gonna take you a really long time to make a decision and it's easy to make a bad decision. yeah, just everything really slows down 



Steve: and it's painful. it's painful I, I don't, I have no idea. I didn't measure it. I, you know, what your oxygen saturation would be, at the top of Everest without supplemental oxygen.

And I'm pretty sure if you walked into the doctor's office and they, they put the oxygen saturation meter on your finger. and the number that showed up was the number that it was when I was on the summit of, of Everest. They would think there was something terribly wrong with me. 





Kush: Yeah.

not advised to do that for, [00:19:00] uh, for most of us. yet here you were climbing the tallest peaks without the aid of oxygen actually. are there any long-term effects on your body on being subjected to this hypoxia? Is this something that is 

Steve: that 

Kush: there's 

Steve: been any good studies on that.

Kush: Okay. Okay. And then while you were climbing without oxygen, were, were there times when. You had to turn around or you had to maybe rely on supplemental oxygen that you had brought with you. 

Steve: Yeah, I think probably,when I did climb K two in 1990, that was my third attempt, on the North Ridge from the Chinese side, and I attempted the North Ridge of K two, from the Chinese side earlier in 1986. With, uh, with [00:20:00] a team where we were climbing expedition style, we were fixing ropes and establishing fixed camps and, and going up and down the ropes and, there was a lot of attrition in the team, from health.

A lot of people just, they got above a certain point and they just really couldn't function. And really it got down to really only like three or four of us that, that could really, maybe just three of us that could function when it got to, you know, trying to go. Then at the very end, just two of us, um, I made a summit attempt with Alex Lowe, where we got quite high, you know, but not, not all the way.

and what I learned there was, that style of climbing back in those days, you'd end up spending so much time. At high elevation, you could see what it would do to your body and uh, I probably spent, 10 or 15 days at 25,000 feet or above. And what I realized was a [00:21:00] climate extreme altitude, you want to get acclimatized, but then you really want to like.

Above a certain elevation, you want to go up and back down pretty quickly, you know? 'cause your body's not gonna withstand, uh, that long exposure to that extreme altitude for very long without you you know, you can get stronger and stronger with your climatization, but then you stay there very briefly and then you started going downhill on the other side.

And I know that. On that trip, by the time I tried to make a summit attempt, I was already going downhill, and, and wasn't as strong as I'd been earlier in the trip. So that was a big lesson. I think, the more experience you have with your body working at Extreme Altitude, then you kind of have a better feel for what works and doesn't work and how to pace yourself and, you know, if you're not feeling good to, you know, go back down, you know, you don't have to like, stay up at a high camp.

If you've got a headache, we'll just go all the way down, get better, and then come back. You know? These are all things that I learned from [00:22:00] experience. 



Kush: Steve. 



Kush: I wanted to touch on something that we just spoke about, which is, uh. Yes, you have spent climbing and you have spent time climbing in these parts of the world, in, in the Himalayas. And your book Carrum Climbing through the Kash Meat conflict, dives into, an area of the world where these mountains are beyond mountains, right?

Like they are religious sites, but then they are also, they're borders. they can also be like flashpoints in this part of the world. And I think people listening, like, like Americans tend to think of, uh, this Paul Quagmire that's, 

yeah, that's Pakistan, that's India. And then there's a war. And every few years, you know, you hear of something going wrong.



Kush: so 

what did [00:23:00] climbing that teach you about politics and about conflict that outsiders often miss? 

Steve: I think my early, interest in the care quorum, which is right in the thick of it as you are alluding to, started with an interest in wanting to do first ascent, in on, big mountains.

that interested me. there was a kind of, um. 



Steve: a political wilderness, that existed in the Karakorum because there are big blocks of time when that range was closed to foreigners.

but then, you know, if you wanted to go there, 



Steve: you became immersed in the sort of the political situation because the mountains really wanted to go climb. We're all in these sensitive. Areas, you know, along, you know, where these, that were disputed, you know, between India and Pakistan, [00:24:00] and so everything was heavily militarized.

you had to get special clearances to go there. There were, there were army checkpoints. You had to have an army liaison liaison officer go with you, um, to make sure you only went where you were supposed to. there was a lot of rules that you had to comply with in order to, as part of the permitting process.

Kush: yes. most people were not, are not likely willing to go through all those processes and yeah, sometimes even applying for a visa to one of those countries, just that is daunting enough and to get, The right permits to be able to, go climb, especially when there's a war 





Kush: this low intensity war, so to speak, that is always happening in those parts.

I mean, that requires a whole another level of, uh, planning. So obviously you were motivated, but again, I'm just curious, like, any thoughts on, just the culture and the identity [00:25:00] of those people over there that, uh, that we in the west tend to miss? 



Steve: you have the whole Army presence, but the army presence is something that those countries, India or Pakistans, kind of get superimposed on.

You know, the local people and local cultures and, you know, they get some employment from the military to, to do some things. But, but really, you know, these, these villages and these very remote valleys and in the care quorum, you know, have been there from, for a long, long time. The languages that they speak have more of Tibetan roots, you know, than they do from, languages, you know, further south.

And, and so most of my interactions with the locals, when we've gone on expeditions have been with the local people there because they're your cooks, they're their porters, you know, they're the Jeep drivers. They run the [00:26:00] hotels, all of those, you know, all those people, are. You know, you couldn't do it without 'em.

and on our early trips there in the early eighties, you didn't have all these adventure tour companies that you just pay 'em a lump sum and they take care of everything. Those didn't exist at the time. You had to do everything yourself. so there was a, a big learning curve on all the logistics.

Like my first expedition to Caricom was gastro room four, which, you know, you're walking for 10 days past the last village where you have to feed, you know, we had 50 porter loads to get the Basecamp, but you had to start with a hundred porters because you had to have 50 porters to feed the entourage every day as you went along.

You were consuming quite a bit of food with that many people. you know, every day we would lay off five porters, 'cause we ate five porter loads of food and as we moved along and so, and so you had to figure out all those logistics. I'd never done it [00:27:00] before. and you know, you couldn't hire somebody to do it.

You really, you just had to figure it out. There was a lot of, lot to learn. 

Kush: Was Steve, was this the era when, I think Nepal did not have paper currency, so you had to have Porter just carry bags and bags of coins or were you after that paper? Money. Okay. 

Steve: You know, the paper money is, there's always there.

Uh, you need like a whole backpack of paper money because the money's not worth very much. Right. so when you pay off each porter, they get like a, you know, a stack of bills like this. And, and so, uh, you know, it's, uh, the, the amount of cash that you have to be carrying with you to, you know, while you're tracking to pay everyone off every pay ev pay the porters every day.

Is is it's, it's substantial. 

Kush: Sure. yes. You were just learning these things on the go. [00:28:00] Right. On what it takes to be able to orchestrate these types of expeditions, because you might have started out with this like single-minded. Purest goal that I am going to identify these lofty peaks and try and do first ascent.

But then you have to learn how to navigate all these other challenges. And I'm curious, how did immersing yourself in that culture, and not just once to twice, but like decades of your life, I mean, how did that change you as a person on how you see the world?



Steve: we don't need nearly as many things as we have in order to survive. I mean, these, these, these villagers are just emerging from a very rustic subsistence farming economy. Up until, well, until the Caricom reopened in the seventies, really? 'cause there wasn't [00:29:00] that much activity before that, you know, they were cut off from the, you know, so they relied a hundred percent on what they could grow in their fields and, and dairy products that their animals could produce.

And so there were very, very poor and, you know, early on, you know, they, all their clothing was handmade. they didn't really have much. There were no schools, there were no health clinics. but the thing that really struck me, and I've noticed this in many places in the world that I've been, is that, people that live.

In, in that kind of a cult. They rely on each other for their very lives. That village, you know, when they, that expression, it takes a village. It's, that's totally true. You know, nobody in that village survives by doing everything by themselves. they, there's this, this, this ecosystem of how they rely on each other to get the work done so that they can all survive.

That [00:30:00] is essential. And, and that really gets drilled into them in a way where they're incredibly generous, in a way that we're not, we get into this, the, you know, all for one, everyone for themselves, you know, and, and in our culture, even more and more, you know, gets to where, you know, people in my.

Humble opinion, we get less willing to spend time and effort on things that contribute to the common good. but in these small villages, if, if everybody isn't complete and doing something to contribute to the common good, no one's gonna survive. they have a way of taking care of each other.

That's quite endearing. you'll notice, you know, whether it's Sherpas and Nepal or Bies and Pakistan, that people come back and they're very patched by that, that 'cause there's such, such a honest, sincere, Willingness to serve, and because that, that's how they survive.

That's how they, that's how they live. [00:31:00] And,it's like here you have, you go back to their village and you go to their house and they start trying to give stuff to you off the shelves. And I'm like, no, no, no. You keep that. You know, you, I don't need, you need that. I don't need that.

Speaker 5: know, 

Steve: and, uh, it's, it's, it's a very uplifting experience. And, and, uh, I've, I've formed some very, very close friendships with, people who have accompanied me on, on trips there for decades. Uh, and they're, they're like family, like, like, you know, like, like brothers to me.

Kush: That's such a good point, Steve, because. I grew up in that same culture, and maybe there's almost a linear correlation between, you know, the, the poorer you are, the more you inter depend and maybe even the more generous you are with your things because you just share used to sharing everything with, with everybody.

Steve: [00:32:00] Yeah, that's, it's quite a paradox, isn't it? It's like the less you have, the more you feel like you want to give away. The more you have sometimes the more you want to keep it and want more and, and not necessarily willing to share it. 

Kush: Yeah. 

Steve: it's a very strange paradox and you know, and it's very applicable to our culture right now where you see a lot more income inequality, where you're, you're seeing a smaller number of people, you know, getting a bigger and bigger share of the pot all the time.

you know, and, and I always scratch my head and, and go, well, why, why would you want that? You know, does that, why does that, why is that so desirable? Um, it, it doesn't make sense to me. 



Kush: Steve, one thing I find fascinating about your career, like you were climbing at a professional level, but you still kept a full-time career in engineering, like the whole time you are taking like weeks, months [00:33:00] out of your life, annually, maybe more to be able to do these things. So how did you make that work without getting fired? 

Steve: I mean, I'm not sure that it's something that, you know, things have changed so much, you know, since I was doing that.

That I think the work environment for young people today is completely different than it was. when I was, you know, working in the eighties and the nineties and the, you know, early 20th, first century, you know, like when I first started working, there was no internet. you know, not everybody had a computer on their desk, hand calculators were, we were just out of a slide rule age, you know?

this is probably ancient history to, you know, maybe some of the people that listen to, uh, Asians athlete would, would know what I'm talking about. But certainly young people don't. but one thing about engineering is, you know, I was in a consulting [00:34:00] business and, We had to compete for all of our work. You know, most of the, I did mostly water resources, environmental, engineering. Uh, so all my clients were public agencies, city of Seattle, state of Washington, king County, Snohomish County, you know, big municipal clients. And it was a very, you know, structured process for competing for work and,engineers, really, your training and interest is not so much like understanding and, you know, really listening to other people about what their problems and issues are.

You know, what do they need, why do they need help? You know, what, how can you help them? most of the engineers that I work with that aren't very good talking with other people, you know, listening to them and coming up with good ideas, you know, for. How you could help them, and that's what you needed to do to be able to sell work.

and so I, I, fortunately I [00:35:00] was able to do that, in, in my world that you become a little bit of a unicorn if you can do that. and it, and uh, my advice to younger climbers when they ask me that question is they say, if there's something that you can do that hardly anyone else can do, and you can do it well, people will put up with stuff like, I'm gonna disappear for a couple months here right now, because they're not gonna be able to,if they could find someone to replace you, who wasn't doing that all the time, they would.

But in, in my case, it was like, oh, yeah, well, that's what Steve does. But, he's really valuable, you know, so, we like to have him around. 

Kush: you crafted your own path, because again, from what I imagine of those cultures was that there was this, uh, everybody else around you followed the script Yeah.

Of the company. You know, you, you put in 40 or so hours a week, you go home on the weekends, you get like two to three weeks a year, and you buck the trend. 

Excellent, [00:36:00] Steve, moving on Togan making. These trips possible from the family side. Like if you are absent at work for like a length of time, usually the work will not stop. Somebody else will pick up the slack, but harder to do. So when you have a family behind. Can you talk about maybe some of the harder trade-offs you've had to make to be able to pursue these goals?

Steve: you know, one thing that I say to climbers, you know who asked me about that as well, you know, with family thing, you know, is that, I mean this might sound, I don't sound, but if I'm gonna go away, the, the biggest impact for me going away, you know, on my family was lost income.

You know, because I didn't, I didn't get, I wasn't getting paid. I'd get my salary from my, you know, by then maybe. Two weeks to a month of vacation every year. But I'd run through that. So I'm taking leave without pay. So you know, I had to [00:37:00] make enough money so that if I'm gonna be gone, that my family has what they need to, to be comfortable while I'm gone.

You know, I would see some other climbers trying to do what I was doing, but they would kind of leave their family behind and with not. Everything that they needed to sort of live comfortably and, and that's not sustainable. uh, the family's not gonna put up with that. the, uh, the partner is gonna be like, what the heck?

So first of all, you logistically you have to have a solid, home situation there. You know, if you're gonna be gone for blocks of time, so that everybody there can go about the, you know, their normal activities every day, going to school, going to sporting events, things like that, that those, you know, with my wife and my children, that, that could, you know, just proceed.

You know, I'm not there to help like I nor normally would, but, but it, it has its own, you know, kind of [00:38:00] rhythm that, and has the resources to do that. That's, I think, really important. I think probably the. The hardest part of it sometimes that I would just miss certain, one of my kids would have their 2-year-old birthday, and I wasn't there, there's just certain things that were, if, if I wanted to, I, now you can't, I couldn't do it all.

You know, if I, I would miss out on things that I didn't want to, but, but that was the, the choice. Those were the choices that I made. 

Kush: Steve, did your wife climb? 

I'm sorry? 

Did your wife climb? 

Steve: No, not really. She's like the outdoors and did a few climbs with me, like on Mount Rainier or a few volcanoes, things like that.

But she's not an avid climber. No. 

Kush: You know, one of the hardest things, to be honest, is being with somebody who's not a climber and. For them to be able to understand [00:39:00] this pull. 

Hmm. 

Did your wife get it? 

Steve: I think so. You know, I mean, when we got together I was right in the middle of it. so, uh, yeah, uh, it was, uh, that was definitely part of the package.

Kush: any tips for listeners who have a partner who is not into the outdoors the same way they are on how to make that relationship work? 

Steve: you have to work at it, you know, because, it's sort of like the Venn diagram, you know, where you have, each of us as individuals, but then as couples, you know, there has to be a certain amount of overlap.

There are things that you enjoy to do together, things that you have in common. And, and I think it, it takes compromise on both people's part to sort of, you know, actively seek out, you know, and, and make sure that you're doing enough of those things. And it was, it's actually easier to do that when I was younger with my wife and I, because we had a family together.

[00:40:00] So you have this big intersection with kids and their activities and, all of that. You know, that really took up a lot of the time and a lot of the energy when. When we had, it was actually harder to do that once the kids are gone and, and we're both retired. Um, is to, is to really kind of work on maintaining that intersectionality so that you don't just grow apart 

Kush: Yes.

When the obligations are out of the way. that raising kids require, then yes, it becomes important to have this relationship with the other person that s contents that, 

Steve: yeah. Yeah. It's not, I mean, you hear it all the time that people, when their kids are gone, then couples are like, look at each other and go, who are you?

you know, it's. I think whether you're a climber or not a climber or, or whatever, I think that applies to everybody. That a hundred percent [00:41:00] you, you, you get to different stages in your life, you know, and your relationships change with, with your relationship changes, with your partner, with different stages of life, and you have to keep up with it.

other, otherwise, you know, if you don't nurture that and, and, keep it going, it's easy to find yourself. Hey, we, I don't have anything in common with this person anymore. What are we doing? but, but that kind of thing happens is because you neglected it for a while.

Kush: Yes. One almost needs to plan for this, this future. When the family's gone, when one is still raising the family, Yeah. Like one has to plan for retirement while one is still maybe at the peak of their career. It's probably not that different, except that you're right with, with family, with partnerships, one isn't always able to be that mindful Yeah.

Of No, you're you're absolutely 

Steve: right about that. I, I just met with a f a good friend of mine, the other, he's, who's, he's, you know, maybe like 10 or 15 years younger than me, [00:42:00] who's kind of in the, the getting towards the last five or six years of his career, and, but he's still, they have kind of young children and they're all in the middle of that.

But when he is telling me about what they're doing, I'm like. My advice to him was, you and your wife need to find some more things that you're doing together without your kids. maintain that intersectionality and those things that you, where you have kind of a common purpose, uh, and things that you'd enjoy doing together, otherwise, you know, when the kids are gone, you guys are gonna be staring at each other and going, what are we gonna say?

We don't have anything to talk about. 

Kush: A hundred percent. Steve, what is climbing to you today? What are you stoked on? 

Steve: I think at this stage, I'm mostly, you know, the biggest things that I would ever be able to do are things I've already done. You know, I'm at an [00:43:00] age now where really it's. About maintaining, my fitness and strength and, a desire to do as much as I can for as long as I can.

and kind of how that's manifesting itself as I really like to rock climb in the, that in the spring, summer fall, and in the winter I live in the Canadian Rockies and I climb frozen waterfalls. And, uh, so, and I can still do both of those things at a pretty high technical level. So I'm, I'm not doing big expeditions or big multiple day trips, but you know, I can still climb water I six and I can, you know, I can still climb five 11 trad.

That's impressive. So that's kind of what, and it's inevitable that. your, you know, my ability, to do those things is finite. And so, I've learned to appreciate it [00:44:00] more and more when, when I am able to do something like that, I'm like, I'm so grateful because it's still working, and next year it might not.

And that's okay. You know, I mean, I'll always keep doing things at whatever level that I, that I can, you know, it's like the old, um, I think, um, I always like that old Nike,thing where it's like there is no finish line. the finish line is when you're six feet under. 

Kush: Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, that's for sure Steve, like, I'm.

47 and I'm still starting to feel grateful for what I'm able to do today because somehow it sunk in over the last few years that, that, yes, I will not be peaking forever. That is gonna be a point. But you are still doing amazing things. Have you just been very lucky with genetics? Like have you had to work hard for this [00:45:00] longevity in the sport?



Steve: I think that for me, I, I don't consider myself really, a really talented athlete, with like fast twitch muscle stuff. I'm no good at catching a ball or, or. doing really complicated gymnastic type moves. I mean, I can kind of do sort of things if I work, but I have to work really hard at it.

But I think what probably benefited me more than anything is I've been involved in endurance sports since I was 14. I was a distance runner in high school, and so I'd been coached in an endurance sport from very early on. So I knew how to train. and for climbers of my generation, especially for what we were talking about earlier with, like climbing at extreme altitude, which is mostly an endurance effort.

there's a bunch of climbing too. But really the, the meat of it, the thing that really [00:46:00] separates people at that point is your ability to. is kind of your level of endurance to function at really low levels of oxygen. And and so I would go on expeditions in the eighties and nineties with people who had no idea how to train for something like that.

And generally I would outperform them, 'cause I would come on the trip. I was pretty, I was fit. I had worked hard to get ready. And they would say things like, oh, you just acclimatized Steve a lot faster than the rest of us. And I go, not really, you know, I was just in a lot better shape coming here than you were.

And then they would tell me about what they would do to train. And I'd go, oh. yeah, of course. you guys are doing all, they wouldn't do, endurance specific type of training. They would just go out climbing, like go rock climbing or something like that for the day. I think that's gonna be training for like being at 8,000 meters.

You know, that's not, to training at 8,000 meters is doing things [00:47:00] like, building up a huge foundation, of endurance with,long duration, low intensity, you know, cardio, you know, and, and then with that foundation building on it, some interval training to build strength and think that's, I've done that for decades.

and I think that you get sort of memory muscle, um, I mean muscle memory and a sense of kind of how your body works that carries you. Well into your, and as you get older, I mean, I, I pull on that history every day,of just having kept doing this for years and years. and that's not to say that an older person can't pick up and start doing some of those things and, and have them benefit them tremendously, but it would never be the same than if you'd been doing that from when you were very young,

Kush: those foundations. I guess your body grows and adapts or just learns those movements and [00:48:00] gets shaped in that way, and maybe your mind does as well because Oh, yeah. 

Steve: And people like say, well, why are people rock climbing so hard now? And I go, well, because they start climbing in the gyms when they're four.



Steve: and so just like what you just said is that their bodies and their minds, just get formed and built around an activity and their strength and all that comes when they're so young that they have such a, a, a, a huge foundation in that, that when they get older, they can do these amazing things that, that they would never be able to do if they didn't start when they were so young.

Kush: for sure in endurance sports, you know, across the spectrum, like the hardest part sometimes is maybe in an ultra round, the, the last few miles, or on an alpine climb, you know, the last 500 meters, like when every part of you wants to give up in your case. Yeah.

your head is hurting [00:49:00] because hypoxia did you. Come up with any practices, like any mantras that helped you overcome the darkest of those expeditions? 

Steve: That's a really good question. I haven't really thought about it too much. I don't think that there was any kind of a mantra that I would have at the moment, you know, kind of at the end of a big effort like that.

to me it, I don't like to, I'd like to think about any individual effort that, that I would make on a mountain or an race, or. Or something like it, it's, it's part of a, of a, a bigger body of work, you know, that,that has significance, um, and meaning to me because of all the things that I've had to learn along the way to make that work.

and so probably what I would say to myself in a situation when it got [00:50:00] really hard like that, the thing I would repeat in my mind is, Steve, you know how to do this. Hmm. Done this before. You know, you've prepared yourself well. you know, you're doing okay. You know, do a little quick check. You know, how, how are you feeling?

You know? there's the old, uh, old, I think it came from Dougle Hassan, which was like the, I think they called it the dougle dictum, you know, where you get to where somebody is like, should we turn around? But then they would go, okay, well do we have food? Do we have shelter? Is somebody sick? do we have, you know, you kind of go through the checklist, you know, are we okay?

and then if you check all the boxes, then you, you look at each other and you go, we're gonna keep going. 

Kush: Yeah. that, that's the thing, like just having confidence in the preparation that you have put in. 

Steve: Yeah. I mean, a lot of the times when, when we make decisions to like, quit, you really don't have [00:51:00] to, You know, it's, it's, it's painful and it's hard, you know, so that's the thing that's screaming at you. Stop, stop, stop. But in reality, you're okay. It's okay. It's just, it's gonna be painful, but it's okay. You're, you're gonna be fine. You know? So you can just keep going, ignore it, you know, ignore that a little bit.

There's certain things you need. Do need to pay attention. That's why something like the Google dictum I think is important. It's like, okay, let's sit here and do a little checklist. Okay. We're okay. Let's keep going. 

Kush: And Steve, today, as you kind of pursue this round, the year hur climbing calendar, are there any practices you have which allow you to, to balance everything out?

Maybe you have some cross training thrown in, some mobility work. what is your routine today to be able to prepare for all the climbing that you do? 

Steve: I think one of the biggest mistakes that older people make is they don't do enough strength [00:52:00] training. 'cause when you get, especially after 60, oh, there's a technical word for it.

I can't remember what it is. It's the, it's the medical word for that. Your muscles are atrophying at a, it starts when you're in the thirties, but it, it excel sarcopenia. Yeah. So that's starting to hit you big time. And the only thing that you can do to keep it from, you could decline like a, at a steep slope if you did nothing.

Or you could decline at a very gradual slope. You can't prevent it. But you can make that decline less steep with strength training. And the only way, in my humble opinion, that you're gonna get that kind of strength training isn't a weight. There's nothing that we do out there on a bicycle, on a set of skis or running up a hill or whatever that, that overloads your muscles to where you're actually, you know, working those muscles to [00:53:00] failure.

'cause it's right before, you know, like your muscles are screaming like, I can't do another repetition here. This is just, I can't do anymore. It's that little bit right there that builds that strength, that wards off the, loss of muscle mass from happening so quickly.

So that would be the main thing I would say to, to older athletes is strength training is really important. And I know a lot of older people, for some reason, they just won't go in a weight room, just, I dunno, afraid of it. Or like, when we were kids or younger, the only people that went in weight room were, were the people that were bodybuilders and we thought they were disgusting.

And so it's just this whole mental thing about, you know, you know, but. get over it. You know, just you gotta go do it and then, you know, you know, you gotta long, you know, like I said earlier, you know, keep that cardio foundation, you know, with long duration, low heart rate stuff, you know, punctuated from time to time with some intervals where you get your heart rate up to a [00:54:00] very, very high rate for short periods of time.

If you're doing those things, you're gonna last for a long time. 

Kush: Beautiful. Steve, can you actually help us dive a little deeper into your strength training? You shared with us the principles, which are so apt, but I think people would be really curious on maybe what is your own protocol? 

Steve: you know, think about your body.

You know, you've got biceps and triceps and and,upper lats and lower lats and your core. And then you've got quads and hamstrings and you know, calf muscles. And so if you go into the weight room, it's like, okay, I'm gonna just go by muscle group, you know, so, okay. And now I'm gonna, I'm gonna work my biceps here first, then I'm gonna work my triceps.

And then I go through and I check off the boxes. You know, I go through all my muscle groups. I'll spend a couple hours in the gym. I probably train two to four hours a day. 

Kush: Two to four hours a day. Mm-hmm. And [00:55:00] so are you like weight training almost every day? Are you mixing in the, uh, cardio and the, an hour and a 

half 

Steve: and then, 

Kush: and then I'll, then I'll go do cardio for an hour 

Steve: and a half.

Um, and 

Kush: is your weight training, are you doing more, let's say, compound? Because again, like, you know, like you said, you know, we are not bodybuilders here. No, we are looking for some, somebody I had on the show, Natasha Barnes, she got me this term, which is like GPP, general physical preparedness. So we are just trying to be really prepared, for our sports and for getting older.

So we can maybe go and do you know, specific like exercise for different body parts. So like do you have a program where you maybe are doing more compound exercises, working hinges? or are you just doing something different? 

Steve: No, I just, I just go around to, you know, do the individual muscle muscle groups.

But, you know, I mean, I wouldn't, I don't consider [00:56:00] myself to be a coach, you know, so if, Your listeners really want to dive into kind of more specific, uh, training routines? I hire a coach. 

I think that's worked for me, but, you know, I'm not climbing five 15 either, kinds of stuff. Depends on what your goals are,you know, and what level that you want to be at, you know, for, for me, for what I'm doing.

if I stay, it's more important to be consistent than it is to like. Go out there and, try to, set some speed record or lift more weight that day than you ever have before. uh, just the, the two most important rules I think really are don't stop and don't get injured.

and, uh, there's a lot of older athletes that I know who really, they have a hard time with, with, their training volume as they get older. Like, 'cause you, you can't, you can't do the same training volume when you get older [00:57:00] as you're younger with, otherwise you'd be injured all the time. and so you kind of like, if you're gonna go into the climbing gym.

And you've got your project there, that's quite difficult. maybe two or three days in the climbing gym, you don't get on your project at all. You just do a whole bunch of laps on stuff that's easier, you know, to kind of build that foundation. And then once or twice a week, then you, you jump on your project, 

I see a lot other climbers my age, like every time they go into the gym, they jump right away on their hardest project, every time. And then they, then they, they get injured, you know, and I'm just like, okay. You know, and, and then we have a conversation about it and they're like, oh yeah, I know I shouldn't do that.

And then they just do it again. You know, they can't help themselves. 

Kush: It's funny, Steve, doesn't matter what age, but you know, clamers will be Clamers and Steve. you know, obviously like you said, like. [00:58:00] Getting older. I mean, yeah, there is some diminishment, but are there also some strengths that you're finding?

Maybe there's some things that you've unlocked over the last decade, few years that maybe you didn't have when you were younger that's allowing you to, you know, both, climb well, but then maybe, maybe get more out of climbing. I mean, it's an arbitrary sport, right? 

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm. 

Kush: It's what, what it gives us. And just curious.

Any, any, any thoughts on that? 

Steve: I mean, just off the top of my head to try to answer that question, I would say it's a little bit like what we were just talking about, you know, is, and I think that. It took me to getting a little bit older and then starting to experience repeated injury because I was doing too much to really understand better, you know, kind of how to, it's very difficult to ride that line [00:59:00] between, doing as much training volume as you can and not get injured, when you're very young.

You know, I mean, that's what they do with these athletes. You know, some of these swimmers, they hook 'em up to computers and all this stuff, and they're nutrition and everything. They like, they're, they're like these finely tuned machines, and to get 'em right up to that line to where they can, to have maximum performance without really getting injured, hopefully.

But as time goes by, that line becomes less over time and I think. At a certain point, maybe 10 years ago, I got to where, one, my mantra really is when I come back from a training session, if I'm not injured, that's a victory. You know, it doesn't matter if I did a hundred percent of what I wanted to do that day, or like I wasn't feeling it.

And then I said, okay, well I'm just gonna cut that a little bit short. Or if I feel a little twitch in the muscle that doesn't feel [01:00:00] quite right, then I'll just stop. because if you come back from your training that day and you weren't injured, that means you can go again tomorrow. If you get injured, then you, you know, you can't go the next day or several days, and then you just.

You're gonna lose it, you know, you're not gonna be able to maintain. So it's really, I think I've learned a lot as I've gotten older to be a lot more patient with,getting the most out of what I can get outta my body for what it'll deliver at that time. And I think that's the key to longevity.

And, you know, it's playing a long game, really. It doesn't matter, you know what you can do on a particular day so much as that you can be consistent and that you,know, pace yourself, you, you, those days where you do hard intervals, you don't, maybe you just do that once a week.

That's all you can do. that's what I think has, I, I've learned, to really keep doing [01:01:00] it. 

Kush: Those are wise words. Indeed. and Steve, if you, yeah. Obviously you are doing many things right to be able to perform at that level today. If you were though, to go back, let's say a couple decades maybe when you were 50, is this something you would change with the way you were training or preparing?



Steve: that's a good question. I probably wouldn't have been able to because I wouldn't have had enough time because when I was working, you know, and what we talked about before, I mean, I was between training and my family and my job, and then cli. I mean, I, I was, I don't know how I did it really.

It was, it was full on. So I don't think I really would've had,if I could let go of everything else that was going on in my life and all I had was climbing, I would've. probably done more volume of training so I could, there would've been things that I, I would've been strong enough to do that I [01:02:00] wasn't, because I didn't have the time.

if I went back 20 years, and, and my life was the, the same as it was with all the other things I was doing, then I don't think I could have done more than what I, you know, in terms of being an athlete. Sure. I don't think I had time for, it would've had any more, any spare time I had for it.

I was using it for doing what we've been talking about. 

Kush: Maybe, maybe if you were to do something differently, obviously you were pushing yourself as hard as you could, but knowing what you know now, is there something you might have changed a little bit? 

Steve: I think 

Kush: that 

Steve: there's probably more knowledge now about, how to train for endurance sports than there was then, 

I think that, you know, the whole idea of, that, coaches talk about now with endurance sports is sports, you know, building this foundation of, you know, [01:03:00] high volume, you know, low heart rate stuff, that the zone two stuff. but you know, when I was running, uh, distance in high school, you know, our coaches would send us that one, they'd call it LSD, long slow distance.

Speaker 5: Ah, so, 

Steve: which is that, that's exactly what it was, you know? And so I don't know that all of the, the science was there yet to sort of say why you should do that, but we were doing it. but I think if I was gonna go back 20 years, If I had the, the training knowledge we have now back 20 years ago, I probably would've spent some of that time differently and I, I could have maybe been more efficient with it.

Kush: Steve, this final section of the podcast, I, I like to call it the ageless section. And I'm curious, as a society, what do you think we get wrong about aging?

Steve: what we get wrong about aging is, people quit. they think, okay, I [01:04:00] retire. Now I can go sit on the couch, you know, and watch the football game or, you know, they don't do the work. and, all the science has shown that, that,exercise, not only just exercise, but also social engagement are the things that keep people youthful.

do those things, you know, like, get out and do something. Move your body around for an hour a day at least, get, you know, do something where you get a little bit out of breath, you know, get your heart rate up to 1 30, 1 40, you know, for a few hours, you know, at a time. You know, these kinds of things will make a huge difference For everybody as they age. and also don't isolate yourself, social engagement, keeping your brain working. all those things are, are, you know, volunteer,have people over for dinner. do, you know, get a group together to go up for a hike or when you go climbing or whatever you [01:05:00] do.

That kind of interaction, is really also important. and in this day and age where everybody's, you know, people are not exercising and they're just spending all a lot of time by themselves looking at screens, uh, this is not good for, for your body and your mind as you get older.

Kush: And I think that these outdoor sports, I mean, they serve like multiple functions, obviously. The most visible one is exercise and maybe exposure to the outdoors. But I think there are all these indirect benefits that we have. I mean, nobody goes, rock climbing alone. and maybe, maybe in my early years, yes, when I was obsessed, I would go climbing with, you know, random people of Mountain Project.

But Nick, I, I, I'm not saying I'll never do that, but it is that much more satisfying to have this group of people and build those shared experiences. So I think outdoor sports allows that. I mean, that's not the only way to nurture [01:06:00] community, but it is certainly like a proven way. Steve, what might be a habit or a, a routine that, or, or maybe even a behavior that you've picked up in the last few years that, uh, helps you keep grounded?



Steve: really the, I think I said it before, which is don't stop. because as you get older, you're gonna have setbacks, you know, uh, you know, I recently had to have a major surgery to have part of my lung removed. 'cause I breathed in some bacteria that grew into this big infectious mass that, like in July I had to have it removed.

It was a big deal. I've never, you know, you're just going along about your business. You're very, very fit older person. And then, you breathe in some bug and the next thing you know, they lay out a table and file, lay you like a fish, But then, you know, as, but I'm, but you know, my recovery's going really well.

I'll, I'll be back doing stuff like. I was doing before, [01:07:00] but I had a very strong, ethic of, you know, how's, what's my plan gonna be for my recovery with my nutrition, with my, you just, you can't stop. you can't let these little things that come by, you know, say, okay, well now I'm good.

I'm, I'm done for now. You know, I'm, that's gonna be the end of it. it's like never, you know, it's like the, there is no finish line and like I said, until, you know, you're, until you're dead. and have fun, there's so much joy out of, I've been thinking about this lately, uh, what psychologists would call the effort paradox, which is that.

Naturally, we always kind of want the easiest way out. You know, take the shortcut, I don't want to have to do that, but it's also, you know, an existential fact that we derive purpose and meaning from dealing with challenges and difficulties. and so to the extent that we're willing to put in the [01:08:00] work, to put in the effort, you know, to do these things, like to engage, to get our exercise, do these things, you know, it gives you purpose, it gives you meaning, it gives you ways to stay connected with other people.

These are the, there, there's no fountain of youth, but these are the things that will help keep you young if you, for as long as possible, if you do 

Kush: them, you gotta make the effort. You gotta make the effort. See, since 

you are a keen reader, if you could give a book. To every climber or athlete over 40.

What might that book be? 

Steve: Oh, I don't know. You know, I don't read that many climbing books. Um, it doesn't 

Kush: have to be climbing at all. Just any 

Steve: book. yeah, I'd have to think about that for a little while. sort of growing up, you know, when I was a young client, like teenager, my favorite [01:09:00] book was Tom Hornbein Everest to West Ridge. I thought those guys were so out there, for 1963. I still feel that way. You know, that's, that's a favorite book.

I mean, some of the, some of the old classics,that, you know, were, were written, you know, about early climbs in the Alps and things like that, you know, I think are are real worthwhile. I love Greg Chow's books, into Thin Air. It's a great, great book.

Kush: Steve, here's a fun question. In recent memory, what's been the best use of a hundred dollars or, or a similar amount that you spent on something? 

Steve: The best use of a hundred dollars. 

Kush: Yeah. 

Steve: I would say, I don't know if it would be a hundred dollars, might be a few hundred dollars, sure. But I buy a plane [01:10:00] ticket, Jim Dini says this, you know who you had on your, on your show. He said, you know, he would, he would say to his claim partners is sort of like, you haven't made the commitment to like this until you go buy the ticket.

You go buy the plane ticket. 

Kush: And so, so the question is for you, like, what have you spent. 

Steve: I spend a lot of time, going, you know, I have to come back to Seattle a lot for different things, but really, the best money I spend is the money I spend spending time in Canmore because, because, you know, I jump on a plane and get up there and, and, you know, I've got, I've got 1500 meters of, of a peak right behind my house that I can, move quickly up that trail and get a great workout.

I can go to the, you know, it's just, there's just so much to inspire me there to, to kind of, you know, make the effort,that for me, spending money on things to give you experiences that, that help [01:11:00] you be the kind of person that you want to be is it's always money well spent.

I don't think that spending money on things, uh, I really care about, but I, spending money on experiences, that, that are worthwhile, is priceless. 

Kush: I couldn't agree more. And yeah, whether it's a, a plane flight or it's maybe even, I don't know, Gas to go climbing.

Yeah. Or even even tickets. Even tickets to a show, Yeah. Those could be, those are beautiful. Steve, last question for us. You've lived this rich life immersed in adventures in the mountains and beyond, if there was a billboard on the side of a highway and you could leave any message.

For others to read. What, what would that message say? 

Steve: It would say something like, when you're laying on your deathbed and you're thinking about your [01:12:00] life, you're not gonna care about how much money you made. You're not gonna care about what, how many mountains you climbed or, or the numbers of, whether it was a five 13 or a five 15.

You're not gonna care about any of that stuff. What you're gonna care about is the quality of your relationships with other people, and you're gonna care about that. I put the work in, in my life to be the kind of person that I want it to be. And if you do, if, if you can check those two boxes, you're gonna be like, it's all good.

Kush: Sure. So. Perhaps to paraphrase it would be, uh, value your relationships and be the, be the best person. Yeah, 

Steve: exactly.