Out of the Box at 75: Joan & Doug Are Ultra-Athletes Rewriting Aging — with Smarter Training, Adaptive Nutrition, and Bold Reinvention — Together

Ageless Athlete Recording - Joan & Doug
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Doug: [00:00:00] Screen on. Yeah, you look sunburned. Okay, good. I wasn't out long enough to get sunburn. Okay. 

Kush: Awesome. Awesome. So I, I hit record. We are, we are live. And, uh, going back, uh, to that first question, I'll have to ask you guys to just repeat yourself. Where are you guys right now and what did you have for breakfast?

John and Doug? 

Joan: I, uh, usually don't eat before I swim. I swim sort of semi fasted, but um, I do, um, had take fuel with me to the pool or the lake, wherever I'm going. And I use scratch nutrition. and then I use gels when I'm swimming. distance swimmers have a sort of a schedule of feedings. So I swim faster for the first hour and then, when I'm training for distance, I take a feed, [00:01:00] uh, which is like a sip of fluid or a gel every 23 or 25 minutes.

And the same is true out in the lake. Um, and then I come home and I'm hungry, I could eat the table. So I have, um, a bunch of rice cakes with a bunch of almond butter and jelly. And I had a bar in between, a protein bar in between the pool and the, and the lake today. 

Doug: And 

what about you, Doug? 

Doug: And just to clarify, we're in Mill Creek, Washington.

Oh, we're home. 

Yes. 

Doug: Um, and I run around the neighborhood here, but, um, I don't eat anything before I go out for my morning run, and then I come back. If it's a short run, I'll have a bowl of Cheerios and a glass of chocolate milk if it's a long run. It's, you know, I'm out there for like three hours and I'll just simply skip breakfast and go straight to lunch,

Kush: John, sorry. But Doug's breakfast, it just sounds more fun. Cheer and, uh, chocolate milk. Uh, is that something you've been doing for a long time, Doug? [00:02:00] Yeah, about 

Doug: 20 years. 

Kush: Okay. 

No, he 

Joan: was doing that even before me. He was doing that even before me. 

Kush: Fair enough. Um, I, you know, I usually also ask people to, uh, tell us who they are.

And both of you have lived such rich and, shall I say, almost, uh, unexpected lives. And I thought I would actually do something different. I would ask each of you to describe. And Doug, I would, can I ask you to go first and describe to us who is John? 

Doug: Well, Joan is the real brains behind the outfit. I mean, I just basically do what she comes up with.

She does a ton of research and she's always looking online to find out the latest, greatest about nutrition, about, [00:03:00] um, exercise, about shoes, all that sort of stuff. And then I just, you know, take advantage of all that information. So, um, it makes my life really easy. Um, and so, you know, I just basically go out there and run and, and have a good time while she's slaving away at the computer trying to find more information to help us become better athletes.

Kush: That's great. Let me, let me, uh, uh, I, I'll make the question more specific. Let's say both of you were at this. I dunno, cocktail party or, or some event where you didn't know other people and you were asked to introduce yourself. So Doug, how would you introduce John? 

Doug: Well, once again, I mean, Joan's brilliant.

I mean, she just knows all sorts of stuff. I mean, she comes from a medical background, she was a nurse, but she really should have been a doctor. And so she just had all this [00:04:00] information about how the body works and all the things that you can do to, to make, you know, your body work better. And so, um, that's, that's just a huge, um, that component of, of why we're able to do what we do.

Beautiful. 

Joan: But how would 

Doug: you describe me 

Joan: as a person? Am I 

Doug: Well, you're, you're got a ton of energy. You go nonstop. Um, 

Joan: I don't suffer fools. Gladly. Don't forget that part. 

Doug: You don't suffer fools gladly. That's true. Um. She doesn't like people getting in her personal space. And so, um, you know, you'd never actually find us at a cocktail party.

Joan: Well, plus I've been sober for 42 years, so that would be a a no.

Kush: And, and Joan, how would you describe Doug? 

Joan: Um, I think Doug is the brains behind the operation in c in certain respects. Doug. [00:05:00] Doug, um, is the rudder to the boat, um, on the boat, which like full of information and ideas and, and energy. And Doug is the rudder. Um, I, first of all our fir if you can imagine, our first state was climbing up to, uh, camp Muir on Mount Rainier.

That was our first date. And, um, what I really loved about Doug was that he planned the thing out. Um, not that I hadn't climbed mountains before, which I had, but he was so organized about it. He, um, um, he just knows a lot of stuff. So when I have deep political questions, not that I haven't been a political activist all my life, but when I have deep political questions, like history stuff, Doug just fills it in and, and, and knows all this stuff.

Um, and he's, he's the steadying force when I am, uh, rocky, um, or, [00:06:00] um, uh, feeling discouraged about my training or, um, whatever. Um, he, he's just, he's the rudder, um, which is, which is amazing. He's the smart rudder. Um, the other thing is he's really, um. He's just very stable. He also likes his family pretty much.

Um, that's how it was at the beginning. Not so much now, but, um, I did not like my family. He and he, the other thing is that Doug always shows up and does what he says he is gonna do. So Doug says, I'm gonna run a marathon tomorrow, and he will show up and do it. Um, I will be like, oh, no, I can't. And he's like, okay, I'm gonna do that.

And when he does it, he becomes this other person. He becomes, um, calmly focused. He probably would not tell you he's calm, but he's just calmly focused, um, and present for what he's doing. [00:07:00] And he's, um, for all my a DD and attention, uh, jumping all over the map. He is, uh, he's focused and the showing up always and doing what he says he is gonna do is really inspiring.

I mean, it, it has really inspired me a lot. Um, he's also a much kinder person than I am. We'll be running along. And there are people, people we run together and there are people, um, I don't suffer fools gladly. And I really don't like people in my personal space unless I know them. I love people, I love in my personal space, but strangers not so much.

Um, that comes from my nursing background, but we can get into that later. But, um, we'll be running along and I'll be like, okay, just get that, get outta my way. And Doug's like, hi, good morning. How are you doing? And I'm, I'm not that he is that, um, he's kind to our neighbors. Um, I am not kind to our neighbors.

Um, Doug looks for the good stuff in people. And I, [00:08:00] um, this is the trauma nurse in me. I'm looking for what's wrong and I gotta fix it. This person is this and I better do something about that. And, and Doug is very, um, accepting of people. I'm much less, uh, he's, he's very accepting. Which is just amazing. And he's accepting of what's happening in the, in the big picture.

Not that we love what's happening in the big world right now, but he's like, okay, and so now we're gonna do this, and then we can think about this, and then we can think about that. And those are all things that really steady my, um, loopy, not loopy, but, um, my jitteryness on the planet. He also doesn't swear and I swear a lot.

Kush: Awesome. 

Joan: We have complimentary 

Doug: skills. 

Kush: What? Yeah. Yeah. 

Joan: Complimentary skills. We have complimentary skills, 

Kush: complimentary skills, and obviously, uh, clearly a, a lot of healthy respect and love for each [00:09:00] other. One other thing I noted, if I may, is that, um, you guys are in the same house, but chose. Different rooms because you have, let's say, different styles with which you attend online things.

Yeah. And you both seem fine about it, and I'm wondering if that's perhaps, 

uh, 

Kush: another, um, developed, uh, skill you have on maintaining this beautiful partnership is, is respecting the other person's needs and skills and, uh, adjusting gladly. 

Doug: Well, I, I'd be really foolish if I tried to tell Joan what to do, so I've just learned to trust her.

She, she knows what works best for her and, you know, let her go with that. And, and it works fine. 

Joan: And the same is true with Doug. Yeah. But I think that's evolved over time. [00:10:00] Um, I don't think that that was how it was at the beginning, if I'm remembering correctly. We were much more critical of each other. And now it's, um, and I, I have endless respect for Doug and to tell Doug how to do running, which I, I have to, I have to modify that by saying I do, uh, offer suggestions about his posture and about that kind of stuff, which he doesn't pay attention to.

So, but, um, and I give him suggestions about running shoes, which he does pay attention to. Um, but, but telling him when to run and who to run with, um, not, and he's learned to, um. One of the greatest things that's happened lately is that when I go out to the lake for a long time and I have to get, uh, refill my feeds out there, um, Doug has been just like on the spot.

Um, I don't think it was intuitive for him. He's not as intuitive as I am, but now he is. I mean, it's just like [00:11:00] completely changed. And as we progress in our relationship, I think that mutual respect has grown. What do you think, Joe? 

Doug: Well, well definitely, I mean, you know, obviously what you do is extremely important to you and I support that.

So, you know, whatever I can do to help, um, I'm willing to do. 

Joan: His phraseology is really different from mine, as you can tell. I mean, he is, he is an engineer. So, um, I elaborate on that and that was just what I said, that I think you're now very intuitive about what I need and you're really there, um, in this big way, in this big hearted way.

Doug: No, no, I take a lot of notes. 

Joan: I write them down. I write down 

instructions.

Kush: Okay. Well, I love it. I, I love seeing the, the, the, the lights in your eyes go off, you know, when you talk about each other. Here's, here's another question on the same [00:12:00] line. From what I gathered, your paths kept crossing for years. You know, you were racing bikes together. You were maybe, uh, even running in the same events, but you didn't actually meet until much later.

And, uh, like how did you guys meet? And was there a moment when you, uh, after you met, when you looked at each other and you were like, where have you been? You know, all my life.

Doug: You wanna tell him, Joan? Or do you want me to 

We can both share. I, I, um, yeah, um,

Doug: you can start, pick up a good story now. 

Joan: No, I think, um, the bike racing that was in Berkeley. We both lived in the Bay Area a really long time, and I was racing for [00:13:00] the Berkeley Bike Club back in the days with Bob Roll before he became an announcer and weirder than he already was. But, um, and Greg Lamond was racing with us, so, um, I was not the best at bike racing, but, um, I would go to races and, um, Doug remembers that I gave him a bike wheel.

He flatted and I gave him a wheel. Um, and then he, he gave it back to me at the end, but we never introduced ourselves to each other. Um, and then, um, I don't know, years past, right? I mean, we just, I mean, came to Washington and I stayed, 

Doug: I mean, like Joan said, we both lived in the Bay Area. She raced for one bike club and I raced for another.

So we were two different clubs and, and I raced against, obviously not her because the men raised separately from the women, but against the men that she talked about. Um, and so we knew all the same people. [00:14:00] And so when we finally did get together, we realized we had all these acquaintances and friends in common, uh, that we didn't realize, but we didn't actually meet in person until about, oh, a good 10 years later.

And that was through match.com. And so we met online and she was living in Fresno. I was living up, um, just north of Seattle. And so, you know, we weren't even anywhere close to each other, but, um. He claims I 

Joan: led him on, he claims I led him on, I'm not sure how 

Doug: well she wouldn't tell me where she lived, so I didn't know that she wasn't local until it was too late and then she ended up moving up here.

So it all worked out. 

Joan: Um, I got, I was working at Highland at the, uh, trauma center in Oakland, uh, for years. And um, I got recruited to open up an ER in Fresno. They were, uh, Kaiser was opening up a new er and so I moved to Fresno, [00:15:00] um, which was just horrendous. But, um, yeah, we met on match chacon and my friends told me that there were acts murderers on MA match shock.

And this is in 2 19 99. 2000 That only acts. 

Doug: Yeah, 

Joan: only Acts. Murderers were on@match.com. And I shouldn't answer any ads, but I did. There was something really, um, I don't know what it was. 

Doug: You said you bike raced or something? Well, I basically put in all these criteria that I was looking for. Someone who knew how to do, you know, trail running, bicycle racing, um, you know, all these things that I figured would eliminate 99% of the potential candidates.

And Joan was the one left. 

Kush: H however, no, I sometimes being, being like, uh, specific and, uh, eliminatory, I guess phase, maybe you guys have learned that over the years on how to weed out, uh, the people who don't [00:16:00] fit. Uh, but you know, you can put all those things on on paper, right? And you can have all these, let's say, um, uh, hobbies and activities that are the same, but you may not be a great fit.

So, so, so Doug, uh.

Doug: You just froze there Kush. You froze a little bit

and you're still frozen.

Well, Joan, what would you like to add?

Oh, okay. We're back. 

Doug: You, you're back now. Kush, you were frozen there for quite a while. Oh, sorry. Did you guys get the question? No, no, no. You were okay. Cut off halfway through it. 

Kush: Yeah, yeah, sorry. So, uh, what I was saying was like [00:17:00] you can have all these things line up on paper, you know, the activities, the hobbies, but then, you know, in person, maybe you still may not make the best fit.

So, obviously Joan, you know, fit the bill on paper, but what was it about Joan? That after meeting her, after spending time with her, you realized, you know what, she is absolutely the one for me. 

Doug: Well, I mean, as she mentioned earlier, you know, the first date we had, I took her out on this test, um, mountain climb where we climbed up, uh, Mount Rainier, not the, all the way to the top, but up halfway up to a place called Campier, which is at 10,000 feet across the ice 

Joan: field, across the ice field.

Doug: And, and then we had to descend in the dark because we started too late. And the fact that she would, you know, put up with all that and, and not [00:18:00] get totally freaked out and, um, you know, was up for that sort of adventure. I mean, that was a good sign that, you know, she, um, was comfortable with, um, being out there in the, in the mountains doing crazy things.

So. And obviously we have many other, you know, um, adventures together to give us a chance to get to know each other. And so, you know, just build on that. 

Joan: Um, I wanted to add that I think the underlying it, which I didn't, I wouldn't have able to define it until recently, was that we both, uh, pursue excellence in stuff.

And the way this guy, Brad Stolberg defines it is meaningful, um, involvement in activities or in, um, mindful involvement and meaningful activities or activities that are meaningful to you that are in line with your values. So it was the alignment of our values, I think, [00:19:00] and, and the alignment with the idea of excellence.

Um, I think that was what was the, is the glue that holds us together a lot. 

Kush: That sounded like an epic first date. I think the kind of date it can be, you know, uh, polarizing in its outcome. Like you can either, you will either never wanna see each other again, or let's say in your case, a better outcome. You realize that this is somebody who I can share a lot of adventures with, just like this one.

I wanted to, uh, maybe dig a little bit deeper into your stories and John, your story of, may I say reinvention, you know, blew me away. Maybe not once, but twice. You didn't start running until 30 and you came from, let's say, uh,[00:20:00] 

you started off, yeah, yeah, yeah. You started off where, you know, you had to make some huge life changes. Then you did that again at, I believe, the age of 50 where you retool yourself again. So I am, yeah. I'm curious. Uh, maybe starting, maybe, maybe. Okay. Maybe going back to when you were heard, what did you change and, and how did you change?

And maybe, maybe something that might help someone who's going through a similar path in life. 

Oh, good question. 

Joan: I, um, I was really a fat, I came from a really dysfunctional background, um, and a confusing background. Um, my parents are both Jewish and, and born in 1949. So the specter of, um, [00:21:00] Zionism was really high and coming.

They're coming off the World War II experience and my father was in the Navy. Um. So they were very, um, Jewish but not, not practicing. They were not orthodox or conservative. And so, um, and that means just going to, to show on high holidays kind of thing. Um, although the, I, you know, the, the huge contradictions, they spoke Yiddish at the dinner table so that my brother and I would not understand what they were saying.

Um, and as I look back on it, I wonder why I never asked them to teach me Yiddish. I thought that would've been interesting, but they didn't. Um, and their main focus with both my brother and myself was, um, education. That that was gonna be the key to, um, unlocking the antisemitism on the planet. Somehow. If we got educated, we would be okay.

Um, my brother is definitely the more [00:22:00] educated, um, in the traditional sense person. Um, Yale and Harvard Law School. Um. I went to, um, these huge contradictions in life, which led to where I'm getting to. Um, are, did we lose him again? No, we're good. Okay. Um, I think we lost him, so keep going. Okay. I, um, I was a very fat kid, so I weighed two hundred and twenty five, two hundred fifty pounds until I was 20 something, and I was smoking and drinking.

Um, that was a pattern that I learned from, um, my father. And the contradiction in that household was, um, you didn't say anything about dad's drinking and he was violent also. Um, and, but the contradiction was that they'd say Jews are not violent and, you know, we don't drink. And, um, and yet, you know, hell, um, so I was confused and, and they, they sent me to [00:23:00] very, um.

Mainstream Protestant Girls Prep school, um, where we went to church every day and I would come home on holidays and they'd wonder why I didn't wanna go to temple or what, you know, what was going on. So that was, it was extremely confusing. It was profoundly confusing. Um, and then I went to, um, a very Protestant, um, Ivy League college.

Um, same deal. Um, and when I went, there were no boys in, in the college until my junior year. We had to wear skirts to class. And it was, yes ma'am. No ma'am. Um, we spoke friendship, that dining table. Um, and, um, I, I had wanted to go to medical school. I was really good in, in science and in high school and, um.

I was, they assigned me to take a class in embryology, which, which I had no interest, none at all. And I really did badly. [00:24:00] Um, my advisor called me in the office. Doug has heard this story a thousand times, and my advisor said to me, this very, um, laced up shoes lady. Um, here's the deal with you. You're not, you're not doing very well in this class, and that will screw up your chances of getting into medical school because number one, they're not taking very many women.

This is in 1967. Um, and they're not taking very many Jews. That was my one of many, um, really profound anti-Semitic experiences. So she said, um, I would change my major if I were you. So that sort of opened the door for me to become very political. So I, uh.

I just, I was lined up with a lot of socialists and organizations, very, very radical. Um, trying to organize the proletariat, which obviously did not work out very well. Um, and, and I started gaining a lot of weight. Was really, got really, really fat. Um, then I [00:25:00] was smoking and drinking heavily. Um, this organization, the socialist organization, didn't allow drugs.

So, um, uh, that I along the way with that. Um, and I was gainfully unemployed. Well, I was employed, but underemployed because I was trying to be part of the proletariat. Obviously that didn't work out well and, um, I really, uh. Got disillusioned with the way this socialist organization was being run. Um, it was very top down.

Um, talk about oligarchs. It was a socialist oligarchy, if you will. Um, there was a guy on top and the rest of us were insignificant individuals. Um, and it felt that way. And, um, I was nearing 30 and underemployed. And, um, I happened to, I was living in Boston and I happened to watch the Boston Marathon one [00:26:00] day.

And, um, I realized that, um, my life was gonna be very short unless I made some major life changes. So the first life change was quitting smoking. And like the day afterwards, I decided to take up running. So I ran, uh, maybe a quarter of a mile and thought I was gonna die. Um, but I kept at it in my persistent, um.

Determined fashion I, um, and that nine months after that I banded the Boston Marathon, um, which was amazing. It was an amazing experience. Amazing. Um, then I decided I really needed to, um, up my game and I, um, I did nursing school, however, I did nursing school in a really unconventional 

Kush: way. Let me ask you, sorry.

Uh, let me ask you this way. I don't know if there's a simple answer here, but it sounds like you did this double whammy. You managed to quit smoking [00:27:00] 

three packs a day, 

Kush: quit smoking. Oh my goodness. And then you also got in shape and just one of those two things would be so difficult. And then on top of that, you started cleaning, um, avidly to become a long distance runner.

Could you think back to maybe one single lifestyle change, like something that you did, which maybe just brought all of those things together and put you on that path? 

Joan: Um, I, I would propel me into quitting smoking was I was afraid I was gonna die. Um, I did not wanna get lung cancer and die. Um, and I wanted to, um, do something better.

Um, I think there's the best way to answer it. I wanted to be better and to do something better and to contribute something. I didn't feel that I was [00:28:00] contributing anything by trying to convert people into beliefs that they didn't believe. Um, but I wanted to, to do something better. Um, and, you know, help people sound so trite, but, but also the medical thing is really in me.

Um, and so I. Um, I didn't wanna go to medical school though. I got accepted at Stanford PA School. I didn't wanna do that particularly. Um, so I didn't think it was moving forward. I thought it was kind of settling, actually, um, for a very long time to my nursing career. I thought I settled, um, for a very long time until I got to Highland.

Well, 

Kush: yes. Uh, three packs a day does not sound like it would've allowed you this longevity and, uh, this career that you have had. And, and Doug, in your case, may I say, you were a [00:29:00] late bloomer of a different kind. Like you described yourself, you know, you were like this super fast kid, but somehow you didn't think that was cool and you took up chess instead, but then you.

Got back into doing athletics. So what is the, what is the narrative arc there? 

Doug: Well, you know, growing up I always had this idea that to be an athlete you had to be, you know, a football, basketball, or baseball player. I mean, that's kind of the standard idea of what athletes are. And just because you can run fast doesn't really mean that you're an athlete.

And yet I didn't realize that, um, you know, if you actually train, you can, you know, accomplish, um, all sorts of things. I mean, I, I was a fast kid in my gym class, but it didn't mean that I was fast enough to be on the track team or anything like that. So, um, [00:30:00] as you mentioned, I mean, one of the things that I was good at was playing chess.

And so, um, you know, I was. Um, president of our high school chess club, but you know, that doesn't have nearly as much status as being the captain of the football team. So, you know, it was not exactly, uh, a way to, you know, um, show off my athletic skills or, uh, attract girls. But, um, so I never really considered myself an athlete.

I just kind of slowly, you know, went in that direction. When I got out of college, I got a job where I could ride my bike to work every day, and I did that. And then I found out that there were people who actually went out and did like 50 mile or a hundred mile bike rides in a single day. And I got into that and then that led me into bicycle racing.

Um, so it was sort of like, you know, slowly but without any real conscious decision. I got [00:31:00] more and more into athletics and then. Started running because that was a good way to do some cross training. And you know, that just kind of opened up new doors for opportunities also. So it was never as much of a conscious decision.

Like in Jones case, it was more like just, um, you know, kind of going in the direction of what looked the most fun. 

Joan: Can I add something here? Can I add something? I gotta say please. Doug's bike racing. Um, Doug is a phenomenal bike racer. He was phenomenal. Um, unfortunately he was racing with like Bob Rowland, Greg Lamond and those guys.

So, but he's, he's really strong at it. Um, and probably still would be today if he got on your bike. Um, but it wasn't just, he sort of took up by Gracie and da da da. He raced on the track, um, with some distinction he raced on the road. Um, so he's. [00:32:00] He will, um, be humbled to the end. He is much more accomplished than he will led you to believe.

Kush: Well, obviously, because, you know, you were racing against people who would go on to become, uh, multiple title holders at races like the Tour de France. So you, you certainly chose, uh, uh, um, a talented cohort to race with, and not just, let's say the quality of your performances, but maybe just the sheer, um, consistency.

Doug, like you have raised, I think an ultra. Marathon or a marathon like every year for like, I don't know how many decades. There are very, very few athletes, even the world's best ones who have [00:33:00] had that kind of consistency. And I think at some point, yeah. You've raised, like, like you said, you've raised like, um, the a hundred milers and then you've also tried s sprinting at some point you found this sweet spot for yourself and, and what is that sweet spot in athletics for you and and how did you stumble upon it?

Doug: Well, you're right. I mean, I've done a little of everything. I mean, I've run on the track, I've run on the road, I've run on trails, and so, um. I enjoy all of them and I still do all of them. And you know, each one has its unique features and challenges. And so, um, I don't have the, uh, [00:34:00] the foot speed that really good.

Um, sprinters have, I mean, my abilities on the track are more in the line of 800 meters and 1500 meters where, you know, I can go, um, fairly fast, fairly far. And so that works out best for me. Um, when it comes to road racing, then it's the same sort of situation in the road races that are typically anywhere from 5K up to a marathon.

And, you know, I'm not that good at the 5K because once again, they're guys faster than me. But at about the half marathon, um, you know, I'm pretty good. I, that's sort of where I can do my best. And then when it comes to ultra marathons, just going out there and having a good time and I. Whatever you do is, is an accomplishment.

So I still enjoy going, going out there and doing like 50 K trail races. And quite honestly, there aren't many guys my age. I mean, I'm 74, headed on to 75 here in a [00:35:00] couple months. But, um, who still go out and do that sort of thing. Um, it was just, you know, um, for a lot of people that's just beyond what they want to do these days.

So, you know, the consistency, like you mentioned is, is I think, key. I mean, I, I have this goal of running a marathon every year till I'm a hundred. And, you know, I, I started, um, I ran my first marathon in 1984 and have done at least one a year ever since. So, you know, so far so good. We'll see how this works out long term, but at least, um, so far I've been able to keep that up.

So that's, you know, that's kind of my long term goal. 

Kush: I, I love, I love that doc and yeah, I'm cu like, you know, it's such an obvious question to ask you guys, so I have to ask it, which is, which is, uh, you, both of, you're doing these things, you know, uh, well into your seventies where so many of your, you [00:36:00] know, so many of the people you used to maybe train with and, and race with are no longer doing that with you and beyond maybe just sheer desire.

Is there something else that you have learned or incorporated about your thoughts on identity and maybe even longevity that has, that is keeping you guys still in the game with maybe same kind of fire? That you've had when you first got into it? 

Joan: For me, um, I didn't find swimming till I was 65, but it was like the, um, it was like the two trains merging to one.

Like I had tried a whole bunch of other things and I got in the [00:37:00] water and um, for some reason it was the right time. Um, and I suddenly realized that, that I was not so bad at swimming as I was. I used to, I'm very self-critical, so I don't think I'm a very good by Gracer. I know I'm not the greatest runner, although I really love running still.

Um, but. Um, I also thought that it might be a good idea to hire a coach. So what do I do? I hired Trent Grimsey, the world record holder in the English Channel. Um, and he, uh, sent me workouts and we would talk. Um, and before I knew it, he invited me to swim the English Channel on a relay team. Um, and that was, um, talk about getting out of comfort zone.

I mean, that was, you know, beyond anything that I had even, uh, thought about. I had done a couple of triathlons, um, short distance [00:38:00] swimming, and Doug reminded me of the first time I got into a lake with, um, this group that swims in Lake Washington. And I was absolutely terrified. I was in tears, I was terrified.

Um, I hated it. Um, and somehow something changed that, um, I just fell in love with it. It was where, um. I found peace for the first time. I wasn't competing with someone else. Um, I wasn't feeling bad that I was off the back of the pack in a bike race, and it wasn't, I wasn't racing with anybody. So for me, um, it's the getting out of my comfort zone on a regular basis, which is like every day in the pool.

Um, the English channel was one of the best experiences of life. I never thought I could do it. And believe me, when I was in that 60 degree water and my hand was touching jellyfish for half the time, I thought it could just get me the hell outta here. But, [00:39:00] but the doing it, the doing it, the doing something that I thought I couldn't do really, um, challenging myself in that way deeply is, was, and is really inspiring.

So that, um. That continues to be the motivation. And now I've grown to, to, I mean, what got me through the pandemic, um, swimming, I mean, that pool is probably a salt water pool by now. I cried so much in it. But, but that's, that's the, you know, I can do anything in the pool. I can cry, I can think crappy thoughts.

I can be pissed off at the person next to me and no one knows what I'm thinking. I'm just swimming along and it's 

Kush: peace. John, you had, John, you had, uh, so how old were you when you swam the English Channel? 65.

Okay, so you were 65 when you Yeah. Swam the channel 

Joan: with a relay team. 

Kush: Yeah, with a relay team. And what I find [00:40:00] remarkable in that story is that you decided you wanted to excel at the sport. And instead of maybe just looking for a coach in your normal, uh, swimming environment in your community, you went and reached out to this world champion.

And this. This world champ, like they agreed to coach you as well. So, I mean, I don't know, like if it's common for somebody who's won like world medals to have, you know, some random person reach out to them and do, do you think, would they already impressed with, let's say, other things you had done? Or like what, what?

Um, I don't know. Why did they honestly just take on this person from the other side of the world as a student? 

Joan: Lemme tell you this, so, so 10 years later, um, I, I wanted to really improve my stroke. So [00:41:00] the interesting thing is that swimming is very technical. It's a very, very technical sport. And I mean, you can just go in and swim like crazy, but to be proficient at it.

It takes a ton of practice. It just, Doug is always amazed at how much you need to swim to be able to improve, but, um, it, it takes a lot of swimming to improve in it, and you have to, um, I always say, I always find it very interesting, and I'll get to your question, that swimming attracts very rigid people, which is such, it is so odd because here we are very rigid and, um, have to have it my way.

People in this fluid environment. Um, and you have to surrender. You have to surrender to, to what's happening because if you fight with it, you'll get, you'll get bitten back. You, you won't, you won't, uh, make it to the other end of the pool if you're fighting to breathe, if you're, you know, whatever. Um. [00:42:00] And so learning the techniques so that you can, so that you can, and all the coaches say, be one with the water.

I have no idea what that means sort of until now, somewhat. But, um, I, it's, it's a concept that you can't, it's a feeling you can't get to until you're more proficient, um, because you have to trust, I mean, things that were such an anathema to me, trust, surrender, um, be in the moment. So what do I do at age 75?

Um, I saw a video of Brent Hayden, who was the Canadian bronze medalist in the hundred meters, um, swimming at the Olympics and tons of swim videos, tons of swim videos, um, at the Olympics year. Tons of swim videos. I get tons of them. Um, clothing, videos and swim videos, um, are the name of my social media.

But so what do I do? I contact Brent Hayden and he's, he lives in Vancouver, which is like two and a half hours from this. And I said, would, can I work with you? Um, and told him a little bit of [00:43:00] my story and he said, sure. So I went up to Canada. Um, I've been up a couple of times and we do, um, I sent him video of my stuff and I would have to say that my stroke has improved by 50% since working with him just a little while ago.

So I love, I love being around people who are, um, skillful at what they do and who, who make a very difficult thing look easy. Like Doug, when he's running, it just looks like, oh, well, you know, and, and that, um, I'm always such a struggle for person. I got, you know, I gotta get this and I gotta get, but, um, making things easier than they seem to be, um, without a struggle, um, without being pissed off, without being, um, having to have a result is, um, is a great gift that Brent Hayden gave me in swimming.[00:44:00] 

Doug: Joan didn't really say it, but what, what she's really good at is just calling up people who she doesn't know and just asking them for help. And I mean, she'll do that for all sorts of things and people respond positively. 

Joan: That's how I met Mark Reker. I took a, I, um, I'm a relentless learner. So, um, a little aside, I, um, because I still wanted to go to medical school, I found out that Harvard was offering first year didactic online.

So I'm enrolled at, at Harvard, taking first year didactic online. Um, and that's sort of interesting, um, medical school. Um, and I take classes relentlessly. You 

Kush: are going to, so you are actually going to school to become a doctor right now? 

Joan: No, no, no, no, no, 

Kush: no, no. I'm taking, 

Joan: just doing the first year didactic online.

Kush: What is that? What is first year didactic? 

Joan: Oh, it's, um, it's advanced. It's physi, not nursing school [00:45:00] physiology, but medical school physiology, medical school anatomy. They did a dissection class online. Um, interactive dissection class, um, genetics, things like that. So, 

Kush: sorry, I'm, I'm just getting fascinated here.

So you are, I, I didn't even know you could do a, a dissection class online. Like John, are you literally on your kitchen table? Like, like recording yourself cutting a frog on video? I'm cutting. Doug. Is that, is that what Doug has to see? Uh, okay. Ally, 

Joan: Doug would not like to see that. And, um, secondly, I've seen more bodies splayed open at Highland.

Um, the county hospital. I have to tell you that I actually splayed open bodies because that was the days before. Um. That was back in the day when they allowed, when they needed nurses to do stuff. It was like being in, at, in Vietnam, it was like a war zone. So I've cut people's chest open, I've seen it live, um, and done things that most [00:46:00] nurses will never do in their career, um, and would get fired for if they ever tried to do it now.

Um, so yeah, but that's how I met Mark Reer. I was taking a class in, um, healthcare advocacy, um, 'cause I love to teach and I love to, um, I, I love give back. I wanna share my knowledge that was really freely given to me. I mean, I've worked with people, um, at, at the county hospital who were so generous with their knowledge with me.

Um, Bob Daley, who is the founder of emergency medicine, shared, I mean, he just, amazingly generous. Amazingly generous. So if I'm not generous, who am I? So, um. So, yeah, I, um, and I realized that Mark Reer was the founder of, of health. You've talked to them, healthcare advocacy. So who would I call? I mean, I called him and I said, Hey, um, I'm in this program.

I'm getting certified. [00:47:00] Can I come and work with you? And he said, sure. So we went down to San Francisco. I work with Mark A. Little bit, and then he invited me to a conference, um, of all doctors. I was like the only nurse there. I felt really, um, square peg, round hole kind of thing. But met amazing, amazing people there who are so outside the box in medicine.

Um, sure, sure. That are just blow your hat off. I mean, just, I mean, just opened my eyes to, um, to, to thoughts and thinking about disease and, and medicine in a new way. It was amazing. So, yeah, I, I worked with Mark Reker a little and still know him. Plus we both like reptiles, so,

so that's, that's a little answer. So, so anyway, I work with Brent Hayden [00:48:00] who's, um, I love, I love being around people who, uh, we're smart. It 

just floats my boat.

Doug: We can't hear you Kush. Did we lose him?

He, he's froze again. Uh, perhaps,

Chris, you're still frozen. Sorry.

Joan: I think he was worried that I was dissecting you on the dining room table.

Doug: That's why I took away all the sharp knives.[00:49:00] 

Chris, you're still frozen.

No, no. I, I, I heard, I heard

Doug: you're, you're not, you're not really coming through at our end

and your video's frozen.

Okay. Steve

days 

Doug: later. 

Oh, 

Doug: we just have you. I know. Well, yeah. Hi. What, what else would you like to tell us about? 

Joan: Nothing? What would you like to tell us about? [00:50:00] 

Doug: Well, I had this great dinner last night.

I assume Kush is coming back. I hope so. Yeah.

My air's blocked up. Oh.

Joan: Oh, I meant to tell you. I found a fish head in the lake this morning. Oh, really? Ugh. Just the head. 

Doug: Well, I guess some bird probably got it before. It is gross.

Okay, I'll be right back. Okay.[00:51:00] 

Duggan, Joan, sorry. Oh, you're back? Yes. 

Kush: Yes. Good. I'm so sorry. Joan just 

Doug: stepped out of the room for just a minute. She'll be right back. 

Kush: Okay? Okay. Okay. No problem. Sorry. It's, it's me. Um, [00:52:00] uh, I,

Doug: and you froze again,

not the best internet connection that you're ever the roof, my 

Kush: van. Trying to just adjust the, uh, the orientation of the receiver. 

Doug: Sure. 

Kush: It's, I, I promise, like, when, when I put it together, it's gonna sound great because I'll be able to, uh, uh, 

Doug: edit out all the bad parts 

Kush: conversation to, to, uh, flow. To continue on, uh, Doug, so again, you know, as we were chatting, you discover, let's say your powers a little bit later and then you dove right in.

And I'm also, I'm, yeah. I'm also, uh, wondering like if you are able to [00:53:00] maybe point to maybe some things that you are doing or something that you have that have allowed you this kind of consistency with running, including the fact that you hope to continue doing that for a long time. Are there something, some habits that you care to share that we can learn from?

Doug: Well, Joan and I have different, um, theories on this, but I'll give you my theory or, or my, uh. My philosophy when it comes to, to running Jonah's back. I see. Um, and basically my story is that my, um, uh, success is because of, um, my consistency. And my consistency is because I'm basically lazy. And what, what I mean by that is that, um, [00:54:00] in particular when it comes to running and, and especially ultra marathons, there's um, this real tendency to go out there when people first start doing it and they fall in love with it.

And, and it's understandable. You go out running on all these beautiful trails and you go to the beautiful places and you meet all these interesting people and it's something that you just wanna do more and more of. But people, um, a lot of runners get to the point where. They just wanna do more and more of it without letting their bodies rest.

And the end result of that is that you can keep that up for a while, maybe even, you know, a number of years. But ultimately it catches up with you. And what happens is that most runners eventually quit running because of the fact that they get injured or they have some sort of chronic problem that is made worse by their running, whether it's related to their [00:55:00] heart or you know, they have to have a hip replacement or knee replacement, stuff like that.

And oftentimes that's what ends their running career by basically doing less. I give my body a chance to recover more often. And so, for example, I always take one day off a week from running. And so that I give my body the opportunity to rest and recover during that period. And also, I typically. Um, during the year I'll take like, um, typically a whole month off, you know, not running all together, but just doing anything intense.

And once again, it's just allow my batteries to recharge. And so, you know, it's, I'm not saying that I never get injured 'cause I have been injured on occasion from overuse, um, type of, uh, activities. But by basically, um, not overstressing [00:56:00] my body, it's allowed me to continue doing this for many more years than most of the people that I've run with.

I mean, there's a lot of runners out there who I ran with 20, 30, 40 years ago who are not running today simply because their bodies are not capable of doing it anymore. So, um, you know, I think this works for me. It may not work for everybody, but, um, this approach certainly works for me. Allows me to keep on doing it, um, at the level that is sustainable.

And I think that's key for me. 

Kush: You have figured out over time what that balances between, obviously continuing to push yourself, which you do, and how to temper that with perhaps rest and cross training. Like how did you arrive at that particular [00:57:00] quantity of running days, miles, what have you, where you realize, okay, you know what, if I do this, then I might be overdoing it.

Was that trial and error? Was it maybe a different type of intervention? Because there are a lot of people out there, you know, who still, who want to continue to, to, to do their sport, but at some point the body. Breaks down, and maybe it's because some of the rest of us have not figured out what that point of, uh, temperance.

Doug: Well, one thing that certainly worked in my favor, although I never thought of it specifically when I was doing it, was the fact that, especially when I was in the bicycle racing, um, I was competing against guys who were basically out there training every day. You know, and, and obviously they were better at it than I was, but I was working full time.

I mean, I have a [00:58:00] career as a civil engineer and so I had to fit my training around my work schedule. And so that limited how much I could do. And so when it came to first cycling and then running, you know, was how to fit it in among everything else that I had going on in my life. So I couldn't just devote myself to one thing.

I had to figure out how. You know, be able to do everything at a reasonable level. Um, and it wasn't particularly a conscious decision. It was just a, a decision based upon, you know, available time and energy. And so, you know, I was certainly doing a lot more racing when I was younger than I do now. But, um, as I've gotten older and I have learned from the mistakes that I've made, so there's been times when I've gone out and tried to do too much and gotten injured in the process, and then I basically had to, you [00:59:00] know, readjust and basically, you know, build back up again.

And it's much harder to do that than it is to, you know, try to find a consistent level that you can maintain yourself at. I mean, there's, there's a very fine line between being well-trained and being injured, and typically people cross that line. Without realizing it. And then obviously you then spend a lot of time recovering from those injuries.

So my goal is to not get too close to that line. So oftentimes I'll go into something slightly undertrained where it's like, okay, well I, you know, did a certain amount of training that I knew was necessary for whatever I was training for, let's say a marathon. You know, I got up to 60 miles a week. Well, other people are probably running 80 miles or a hundred miles a week.

But I know that if I tried to go to that additional amount of training, that that was not going to work for me in the long term. I mean, it might help for one [01:00:00] particular race, but ultimately, you know, your body, especially as you get older, just can't handle that volume. And, um, you know, I've seen that happen through other runners, so I know that that's a limitation.

So I try to not only learn from my mistakes, but other people's also 

Kush: are you. A meticulous note taker, Doug, like how do you, how do you, yeah. How do you kind of build upon that body of knowledge, which allows you to like kind of fine tune what you said because I, I do know that from like, let's say, are the sports from the world of climbing, like some, seems like some of the best rock climbers out there, they are the ones who don't get injured, right?

Because if you get injured, then you can't climb or you do your sport. And they have also learned to kind of find that fringe where they are, let's say, training and existing right below the cusp of injury. So you kind of push, push, push. [01:01:00] But then they have learned that, okay, if they go and maybe spend that extra hour training or climbing, they will probably go and rupture their, you know, their, uh, ringed finger pulley.

So how have you learned to kind of dial that in, Doug? 

Doug: Well, first of all, I don't keep track of my training miles. So I don't write down every screening right. Run that I do now. I have a watch that tracks all that stuff. So if I really wanna see it, I can. Um, but you know, I don't write down every run that I do.

Um, that also allows me to exaggerate how many miles I run a week. So there's a fringe benefit there. But, um, you know, it's also just listening to my body. I mean, there are days when my body tells me, okay, I, you know, maybe, you know, have a 10 mile run plan, but the body just does not feel like that's gonna work.

[01:02:00] So I readjust. I mean, um, part of my background of being an engineer is that I tend to analyze everything that I deal with. And so, um, you know, I'm basically adapting my training based upon. The feedback that I'm getting from my body and how I feel, and then, you know, plan accordingly. 

Kush: Got it. And sounds like yeah, you, yeah.

Even if you are not taking, you know, um, tedious notes of your mileage, you have learned to just maybe develop some sort of like, uh, you know, sensitivity to how your body reacts, how your, uh, system reacts to the amount of miles to a particular run, and then, and then do [01:03:00] more or less of that. Anything else specifically you're doing to avert injury outside of just tempering time on the road?

Doug: Well, I mean, I also go to the gym and do a variety of exercises and. Um, workouts that, you know, promote flexibility and mobility and strength things that, a lot of things that Joan has taught me. So, you know, once again, I rely upon her knowledge, uh, and so that, uh, you know, I recognize that, you know, there's some things that you need to work on that you will not get just from running.

So other types of physical activities will, um, help keep the body strong. And, um, there's a, a test that I do where, um, if I wanna, you know, if I don't wanna go to the gym, all I have to do is go to the local supermarket and look at some of the [01:04:00] other people walking around my age and realize that I don't want to look like them in terms of being bent over and shuffling along and, you know, having a hard time of it.

Um, so, you know, it makes that gym work out. Um, you know, a lot more, uh. Productive when I realize what the alternative is.

Joan: And what about eating and sleeping? 

Doug: Hello? Oh yeah. I, yeah, I, I, I believe in plenty of sleep and naps also. So, 

Joan: and eating 

Doug: any excuse is a good one. 

Joan: And eating well. We change 

Doug: her diet. Yeah. Joan makes sure that we eat well. You know, if I was left on my own, who knows what I'd end up eating? Probably Cheerios three times a day.

So, so, so Joan keeps that Cheerios and 

Joan: Almond poppy seed. Muffins. 

Doug: Oh yeah. Those, those are good too. 

Kush: So [01:05:00] what, what are the changes that you guys have brought into your, uh, into your diet? 

Doug: Well, Joan's the expert on that. 

Joan: Um, I, um. First of all, we didn't have a good stove until recently, but, um, we got a new stove.

I also thought that, um, I just, I didn't feel our diet was contributing to improvement very much. Um, and, um, I didn't feel like we were getting good quality protein, so I switched us to Mediterranean diet and I learned how to cook. I never knew how to cook before, so I learned how to cook, um, which has been really fun actually.

Um, that's a whole new thing. The other, I have one of these crazy things too, and um, this is where Doug and I sort of diverge in our opinions, but, um, I was really getting attached to the statistics on that [01:06:00] watch until I started questioning like, how does this watch know how I sleep? It doesn't. Um, so I learned how to detach from that.

However, that said, we do go to bed really early. Um, we get, or in the afternoon. Well, you nap. I don't nap. He naps. Um, but we go to bed early and wake up early. Um, we don't stay up late. We don't. Um, and,

Kush: and so how long ago, how long ago did you learn how to cook or you made that change? Um, to, I'd say a few months. The new diet, 

Joan: well, the diet change was about six months, but I just learned to cook. Um, just learning to cook starting like three months ago, four months ago. Oh, no, it's 

Doug: been longer than that, Joan.

Okay. I even, even with our own stove, we were cooking just not as easily. 

Joan: Doug is not, is not cooking, but he's learning. So that's the great thing. So now, um, now that he's learning to cook, we cook [01:07:00] together, um, which is, which is kind of fun. We're frozen again. 

Yeah.

Now we cook together.

Doug: You're frozen once again, Kush. 

Sorry, I, I,

Doug: you're not coming through at our end.[01:08:00] 

Hi. Can you, can you, you're back, you guys, can you guys hear me now? Yeah. Guys, I'm so sorry. That's okay, 

Kush: Joan, I'm sorry. I was telling Doug we're cooking together. I Yes, yes. You're cooking together and you didn't even start, I find, I, I, yeah. I'm blown away. Like you guys are like in your mid seventies and you were not cooking until, uh, I don't know, like, like what, sorry, but dumb question, but like, what have you been eating over the decade?

I mean, you still have been performing at a high level. 

Joan: Oh, I didn't see we were eating that badly. But, um, I really thought that we could improve some things. So for example, we started, um, taking creatine and we're doing some collagen. We do a lot of supplementation based on Mark, um, based on stuff I learned from Mark, um, [01:09:00] who's a big fan of supplementation and, and I learned a lot from him.

Uh, and through the years I've, I've, um, corresponded with him and learned even more from him. So that's really helpful. We were eating okay, but, um, I do less snacking of junk now. I really limited my junk and sugar. Um, but I think it's all of that put together. I wouldn't say that any one thing contributes to our, um, launcher.

I think it's, it's the consistency that Doug talked about. Um, and swimming is a little bit different, so I have a little bit different take on. Um, and our diet and our general, um, I do some meditation practice. I'm not very good at it, but I do, I do some breathing stuff. Um, Doug naps, I breathe. Um, and we, and we have regular, we have, we have a regular schedule, which we don't veer off of very much.

Um, do you agree with that, Doug? You [01:10:00] think? Yeah, 

Doug: yeah. Yeah. Well, our schedule's pretty standard every day. I mean, we have different activities, but it's pretty, um, yeah, pretty focused on what our athletic interests are. 

Joan: I think with swimming, I think the difference between Doug and myself on that topic is that, um, consistency is definitely the piece it is showing up.

And for me, um, the values that I embrace are, um, uh, well, first of all, the love of the sport. Um, and if I ever stopped loving it, I would, I would not do it. Um, and improvement, um, among many other values that I have, the, the, um, relationships that I have with people at the pool and at the lake and, and all that.

But, um, improvement. The problem and the difference between me and Doug is that I am more of a subjectively based person. So if you ask me [01:11:00] to gauge what my feelings are about, um, my workouts, I've had this discussion with Brent Hayden a lot. Um. Who also has had his ups and downs. You hear a lot about swimmers getting depress.

I mean, swimming's a lonely sport. Watching a black lion or watching, um, algae at the bottom of the lake is like, you know, not engaging. Um, and engagement is one of my values. So it's, it, it sort of takes me away from that. Um, just engaged with myself and my thoughts. And that's a, that can be a very tricky, slippery slope.

Um, so I have a coach, um, not Brent, but someone else, and I run things by him. He's, so if I write him and say, I really felt crappy about this workout. I didn't feel like I did. He's like, okay, um, you know, show me what you did and, and that, and he'll put me back on track. But, but I don't have as easy a time of, [01:12:00] um.

Saying, I feel tired. Although yesterday, I have to tell you, confessed I took a whole day off, um, and felt horrible. I didn't, I walked, um, which I thought was like the, um, and I'm not as good as resting, although, um, I sleep longer than Dr does, I think. Um, but my coach writes, um, we period periodize my workouts.

So right now I'm building for a 10 mile swim, so the pedal's to the metal. Um, and it's hard. It's hard. Sorry. Yeah. Um, um, and if I come home and say I'm tired, Doug's response would be, well, you know, rest. And I'm like pedal to, I gotta put the pedal to the medal for rest of this week. And then I get to taper.

Um, so I have a schedule. 

Kush: John, if he were to go to your coach and ask them. [01:13:00] How are they training you the same or differently? How does your plan compare to other students your coach has? 

Joan: He doesn't have any 75-year-old students. It's like our doctor. That's what I'm 

Kush: saying. Yeah. Who does 

Joan: not have any? Um, I spend a lot of time educating my doctor about things.

So the stuff I learned from Reer and that conference, um, I, so I send my doctor research papers about stuff this, um, um, but anyway, um, I sort of lost the question, but um, I don't remember the question. I was just asking if, but 

Doug: is always, always looking for more information and there's always studying what's the latest, greatest stuff available 

because.

Okay. 

Kush: Maybe this is a good segue, you know, uh, to this thing that I've been thinking about, [01:14:00] John, when you wrote to me, you said something that made me chuckle and you said, uh, that you are outta the box, 75 year olds, and you have to educate your, uh, primary care physician and absolutely how you do, how to deal with you guys.

So, first of all, what does out of the box mean to you? Both? 

Joan: To me it means, um, I wanna contextualize this. So I go to my doctor's office for a physical, I, and mind you, these days, a physical, he hasn't laid a hand on me ever much. I love you, Jacob, but he hasn't laid a hand on me and it's a physical, um, where he has eyes on me.

But, um, they asked me these ridiculous questions. I mean, they, they know me. He knows me. He's known me for 10 years now. Do you need handrails? Um, to get outta the shower? Okay. Ask me something meaningful. I do not need handrails to get outta the goddamn shower. [01:15:00] Um, have you fallen? Let me, yeah, I've tripped on the trail a bunch.

Um, just ridiculous, ridiculous questions. Um, are you incontinent? Yes. Sometimes when I'm running I need to go off the trail and poop. I, you know, it happens. Um, do you re do you forget things? Yes. Sometimes I forget where I put my keys, but then they punch that into an AI algorithm and come up with this is what a 75-year-old is.

And I say, we are not that. We are not that. We're, we're a me, Doug is Doug, and you've got to see us for who we are. And this is what medicine is. It's an art, it's not an algorithm. And I, um. People say to me, one of, one of my least favorite things that people say is, you look really some woman, you look really good for your age.

I'm running the other day I had my shirt off and just my sports bra on, um, and shorts. And this woman stops me and says, God, you look really good for your age. And I [01:16:00] said, how old do you think I am? And she said, oh, 55. And I said, hi button. I'm 75. And how I look is irrelevant, it's what I'm doing. She said, she says, I wanna look like you.

I said, work for it. I work for it. It isn't that I sit in my house and, you know, watch YouTube videos on how to get plastic surgery. It's, it's working for it's consistency. It's. Um, so marginalizing the elderly, um, I find really distasteful and it's something, it's a real mission of mine to, to stop that because people internalize that in their head they think 75 means you should be X, which I think is part of why we're, we're, um, doing as well as we're doing is that I don't, even if you ask me how old I think I am, I have no idea.

I don't, I don't think about it. Um, and so I find it really distressing [01:17:00] that people actually internalize how they think X Age is supposed to behave. And I think that's a, a, uh, an untruthful place to be. And society does that.

Kush: Yes, yes. No, that is, uh, I mean, even at the age of 47, sometimes, you know, people, I go to the doctor or whatnot and they keep telling me, actually, it's funny, I was recently testing out this, uh, CGM, you know, this continuous glucose device, and they make you punch in some information about your age and height, like so, you know, so just some basic, uh, biomark, uh, just some basic, um, pi and I was doing that and, you know, it didn't, it wouldn't matter like what I ate.

I would still stay in that green zone. And I just feel like even at my age, like they have compensated based on maybe some, like, you know, some data group that they have that a [01:18:00] person of my age, you know, should just get this, you know, this amount of swat. And I'm guessing for you guys that's even wider, right?

So maybe I will ask you. So maybe the same question for you, Doug. Like what is, what is your take and, um, how are you re okay, how are you redefining aging on your terms? 

Doug: Well, I agree with Joan in the sense that, you know, I don't think of my age is, you know, a limiting factor. Um, you know, I I kind of sometimes chuckle when I think about, uh, I mean, I remember when my grandparents were 75 years old and obviously that was a much different time than today.

And even my father who died in 81, um, you know, he obviously didn't do the sort of things that we're doing. Um, and you know, it just [01:19:00] shows you what people are capable of. Um, if you, you know, take age out as, as a. Determining factor. I, I, uh, train with an 80-year-old runner who's a phenomenal runner. I mean, he's literally just as fast as I am at short on shorter distant runs.

And I mean, he's 80 years old and I wanna be like him when I grow up. So I mean, you know, we can always look at these role models, these people out there who are even older than us, and see the amazing things that they're doing and recognize that, you know, we're capable of doing those sort of things also.

And so that's the sort of thing that helps me, you know, continue on doing these things. You know, even on days when I feel like, you know, I'd rather just, you know, stay in bed, but I know that if I get up and get out there and do these things, um, what the benefits are. 

Yeah. 

Kush: And [01:20:00] right on, like, um, obviously surrounding yourself with.

Let's say other overachievers, you know, that that's probably goes, goes a long way, and I can sense that to some degree, maybe there's also some frustration to how society kinda labels us based on this age number.

Doug: Chris, you just froze

Kush: self or maybe unlearn with what the script is and how you are supposed to live your life. Well, 

Doug: basically we're pioneers. I mean, we're out there, you know. [01:21:00] Basically blazing a trail for the next generation to show them what's possible. So, um, you know, when you're a pioneer, you're obviously, you don't have much to follow.

Um, you are the one who's being followed. So, you know, that's both good and bad. But I think it's encouraging. I mean, I'm always, I mean, just someone like Joan, I, I'm always kind of amazed when I talk to younger runners, especially when I'm out there running ultra marathons and, you know, I'm the only one who's in my age group, so, you know, they're mostly people in their thirties and forties and they just kind of assume I'm probably, you know, in my fifties because I'm a little bit older than them.

But they have really no idea that I'm still capable of doing these things at my age. And, you know, I always use that, uh, in my benefits. 

Joan: But that's why your podcast is so important. It is so important. Um, Bob Becker, who [01:22:00] just did, um, bad Water in under 40, 48 hours. Yeah. 45 

Doug: hours. Yeah. 

Joan: It's four, five hours. I mean, that's why your podcast is so, um, resonant with me.

It, it's, it's so important to get this out there, that, that we're not marginalized, we're not living on the edge. We're, um, we're ordinary people doing good stuff on all levels and, and athletics and improving life on the planet. Um, but your podcast really, really, um, highlights that for people. And I want everybody to listen to your podcast and know that not all, um, people over 60 are gonna be walking around with a walker and going to assisted living.

Kush: Well, I started this podcast. Honestly, to as a gift to myself, to, to learn from others people such as yourself. Like what is it [01:23:00] that I need to start doing or stop doing? What is it that can inspire me? So you guys are obviously pioneers, but being pioneers can also become, you know, exhausting, right? Like always having to blaze a new trail.

Uh, what do you derive inspiration from? Like that 80-year-old that you run with dog for sure. Um, people like Bob Becker plays that, or people that you look up to and maybe try to, I don't know, learn from, or

Doug: you just froze Kish.[01:24:00] 

We, we didn't catch the rest of that con that question that you had, um, because you're, yeah. Sorry guys. 

Kush: That's okay. I am so sorry, but, uh, you're, I promise, I promise we'll come if we come together when I put it together. My, my question was just that, you know, you guys are pioneers, like you said, you know, you're blazing a trail, luckily for the rest of us, but sometimes being a trailblazer can also be exhausting because you're constantly having to learn things on your own.

So, besides the couple of people maybe you mentioned, you know, Doug, your, uh. Your, uh, friend from running and maybe even people like Bob Becker, like where are you guys finding inspiration, finding a path, when sometimes things do get tiring for you? Things get exhausting sometimes. Yes. [01:25:00] The, the heaviness of like the society, which is trying to force us down a certain script that gets a little onerous.

Joan: Well, I, um, there are a couple of women who I know, um, um, a 75-year-old woman, um, in Maine, whose name I'm forgetting, pat, um, pat Ette, who is 75 and really is an amazing swimmer. So she goes out and just knocks off 20 miles somewhere. I mean, she's, she's amazing. And she's a nurse, also a nurse. So I met her at a conference.

Um. She got into swimming 'cause she lost a son, um, in the water and took up swimming, and now she's, she's swam everything. Um, Charlotte Brin, who I mentioned to you, who I'm going to swim with in Vermont, 55, 57 years old, [01:26:00] um, she's someone who has inspired me unbelievably. She, she attempted the English channel and failed as a word swimmer's throw around a lot, but, but didn't complete, um, four times.

And she had the guts to go back and face that baby again and completed it on the fifth time. Um, 

we lost you again. 

Joan: Can you hear me when I'm doing this? So Charlotte, 

Doug: she's hearing you. Yeah. 

Joan: Charlotte, Bryn. Um, and she wrote about it and that anybody who has the guts to, to um, cop to their failure and then show up and, and I mean, it's hard to describe the English channel.

It's just vast. It's this vast body to look at that and say, okay, I'm gonna try this again with a different mindset. It was her mindset that changed. Um, I'm gonna make friends with this channel. I'm not gonna fight [01:27:00] with it, and I'm, I'm just gonna see what happens out here. Um, so it's people like that. Um, there's a woman named Ariana Derman.

She's not older, she's younger. She overcame melanoma and um, is an iron man. Um, and her insights, um, are so profound. Um, and how her mind works is so profound. Um, um, built for this, I can do it. Um. Uh, she just, she doesn't feel fear failure. She gathers evidence. So the wisdom that pops from this young girl's mouth is really inspirational.

And, and the challenge, and for me, what resonates is, wow. Um, okay, what happens when I, um, go beyond my perceived limits? And I have a lot of perceived limits. Um, oh, I can't do this. You know, can I do this? Blah, blah, blah. Um, and, and can I do this? And [01:28:00] is, is this worthwhile? Does this resonate with me in this meaningful way?

Um, is this resonating with my values? Um, and anybody who can, who can answer those questions, mark Reiger, um, 75 years old, he serves Mavericks for God's sakes. I mean, um, those people show me that you can do more than you think you can. And I don't mean more like you have to go out and swim 20,000 miles or, but you can do more than your mind is telling you, your mind is your biggest limiter.

Um,

Doug: and, and I think also by being a trailblazer, that means that we also get to make our own trails. Yeah. So, well, we get to see what other people are doing. We also get to go out there and do what we want. I mean, we don't have to follow anybody else's footsteps if we, if that's not what we wanna do. I mean, you know, Bob Becker running um, bad water is phenomenal.

I mean, you know, [01:29:00] it's just, uh, unbelievable. But I have zero desire to ever run bad water 'cause it's just way too hot. So, but, you know, I admire people who can do that. Um, I'll go do what I want to do. 

Joan: Lisa Baton Smith is. Smith Baton is another person. 

Doug: Yeah. 

Joan: When she, um, we met her, Doug did, did her Ultra in, um, in Wyoming, but 

Doug: ran Teton 100.

Joan: Yeah. Um, not only, I mean, and people who do more than just the sport. The sport is, the sport is a metaphor for something bigger. If you don't see that, I don't know where your head is, but, um, that she has this foundation that gives water to children in Africa, for heaven's sakes. I mean, I met her children.

They're, they're lovely. Um, she, there's a purpose for this. There's a purpose for this, um, going beyond your perceived limits. [01:30:00] Um, is, is a life lesson. This is what we do. We don't just sit in our house and twiddle our thumbs and watch reruns of Rocky and Bull Ankle. You know, we, we actually do something. I teach nursing students sometimes I work with, um, old folks in the neighborhood and try to help them walk better.

Um, be bigger, be bigger in this world where people are just so ified and looking at their damn telephones all day. Do something bigger. 

Kush: You know, one, the one thing that Lisa said when she spoke on the show, which has stayed with me, was how this purpose keeps her going. Even when she does, you know, things which seem impossible.

You know, when every part of you wants to stop and you just keep pushing because you feel like you're doing this for somebody else. You guys do similar things, and I think that it's almost like a toolkit like. It's [01:31:00] almost like you, like, I think people are doing things that you guys are doing. Like you develop this as like this, uh, uh, like tangible tool to, to do something for something that is beyond you.

And what is it that you guys harness? You know, you talk about, uh, a couple of the ways you give back. Is that how you keep pushing past? What might be your perceived limits or is it something different or, or maybe deeper? One, 

Joan: I'll tell you one word is gratitude. I go to that lake this morning at eight o'clock and say, I'm really, I am really grateful that I have this opportunity, um, number one, to be retired at this point.

And I don't have to be at work in a half an hour, but I have this opportunity to be in this magnificent place. Gratitude, gratitude. Doug talks about that a lot too. He wrote an article [01:32:00] about people bellyaching during races, um, and I offered him up the word gratitude. We're grateful for these opportunities and what do, and what do we learn from these opportunities.

Kush: Doug, a slightly contrarian question for you. Oh, good. You, you, you have spent so much of your life since you discovered your talent for endurance sports out on the track, out on the race course, out on your bike. You, you given so much to these activities and I'm just, yeah. I'm wondering like, is there something else you could have done with your time?

Like what makes those activities so meaningful to you as part of a. Life well lived.[01:33:00] 

Doug: You want an answer? I sure do. Well, yeah, I mean, I don't, that's, that's a question I'm not sure I can answer. I mean, obviously, you know, as we go through life, we make decisions not knowing where those decisions will lead us. Um, and you know, I never made a conscious decision really to end up where I am today.

I, I'm not complaining at all. I, I mean, I'm talking about gratitude. I'm amazingly grateful for the fact that I ended up with Joan and having the ability and the opportunity to do what I get to do. I mean, that's, I'm one of, you know, one 10th of 1% of the population who gets to do that. Um, you know, and I could have easily have made.

Other decisions along the, the way and ended up, you know, being one of those people that I look at when I go to the supermarket and [01:34:00] shuffling along, trying to, you know, do the grocery shopping and they're having a hard time just walking. So, um, and I mean, and I've had other acquaintances who are, you know, um, probably through no fault of their own, they're not alive today.

They, you know, they just didn't even make it to this age. So, um, the fact that we get to do these things is amazing. Um, just that we're here and able to provide this sort of, um, uh, this ability to show others what's possible, um, you know, is, is something that is a real gift that, that we're given. And, um.

You know, I don't know how things would've worked out differently, but I'm certainly happy for how they did work out.

Kush: The other thing, which I feel [01:35:00] is, is remarkable, but I also feel the little that I'm learning about you is, is I think, uh, intrinsically connected is you guys also have these careers. Doug, you are a practicing engineer. John, you are enrolled in a course at Harvard and you, and 

do you think

Doug: we lost you?

Kush: The exercise, the joy, the endorphins, even that you get out of practicing your sport so duly. That also pushes you to seek answers [01:36:00] and, and keep learning as, as you get older. Like which, which one do you think comes first? 

I didn't get the 

Doug: question. We kinda lost you halfway through your question. 

Kush: Okay.

Sorry about that. So my question was, I, you guys have these careers outside of your sports. Again, not to bring the age up, but most people at 75, they are either retired, most people or are maybe contemplating. You guys are still out there, you're working, drag you as an engineer, John, you are, you know, you're taking like dissection classes as part of your, as part of your, uh, um, so, so do you think it's your [01:37:00] practice of sport, your physical practice that fuels your quest for learning and for continuing to see growth?

Or do you think it's the other way around? It's your, again, your curiosity and your desire to grow that pushes you. Then on the, on the swimming pool or on the racetrack, 

Joan: I think they're interrelated. I think for me it's the, um, it's the passion for growth and, um, and learning stuff. So, um, things that irritate me are things that I wanna learn about, um, and I exclude certain things from that.

But like AI, for example, I have no idea what that's about, but yet I prefer opinions about it all the time. So I'm taking a class in AI to figure out, um, what it is that pisses me off about it, [01:38:00] um, or the dangers of it, particularly when it applies to medicine. Um, and going down that road and that, uh, curiosity.

I, I'm endlessly curious about things. I'm endlessly curious. I go outside and, and, um, and drive to the, I'm curious about why people drive the way they do. I'm curious about, um, everything. I'm just, I'm endlessly curious, um, and I'm curious about how to improve my swim stroke and how that. It's the curiosity that drives the whole thing for me.

The endless interest in the world around me and the cur and my curiosity about it. I'm very curious about penguins. I wanna learn about penguins. I, you know, and I, um, I love being curious. I love that childlike quality of being curious. Um, and I think that's a product of not being allowed to be curious maybe when I was a kid that I had to be very focused.

[01:39:00] So now I get to be curious, um, about a lot of stuff. 

Doug: Yeah. And I, I approach it from a little bit different perspective in that I think that to, um, to age, well, lemme put it that way, or, or just to have a, a well-rounded life. You have to be physically active, mentally active, and socially active. Those are sort of the three legs of the stool that you, you sit on.

And so. I mean, being physically active obviously is a sport. Being mentally active, like Joan says, is being curious about stuff and going out there and learning about new things and, um, keeping your mind sharp. And then, you know, being socially active is not isolating yourself, but being out there, you know, dealing or working with others.

And so all three of those things are important and a lot of people just do one or two of those [01:40:00] things, um, and neglect the others. And I think that's a real mistake. 

Joan: We also both read a lot. Um, I wanna add that. 

Doug: Yeah. And I, that's, that's part of being curious. Yeah. 

Kush: You know, I, I, I love that so much. I mean, I, I just feel like the day we stopped being curious, the day we stopped growing and the day we stopped growing, you know, the, the closer we are.

The closer we get to not living. And where do you think society goes wrong? Like there's this idea of, I think we talk about balance a lot, right? But we don't practice balance. So where is it that we get go wrong as a, as a species when it comes to finding this balance in our lives [01:41:00] that allow us to stay curious and stay in a state of growth?

Doesn't matter your age. 

Joan: You want my opinion on that? I, um,

um, I don't know even where to start on that question.

Doug: I, while, while Joan is thinking of an answer, I'll just throw in that I think, you know, people get so focused on, um, typically money Yeah. That it drives all their decision making. And so people make decisions, you know, that they're gonna do whatever. Uh, and a lot of times people don't have a lot of choice.

I understand. But at the same time, you have to recognize that there's trade offs. I mean, [01:42:00] as a engineer, I could have gone to work for a big engineering firm and made twice as much money as I did when I started my own engineering firm and, you know, but I would not have been twice as happy. In fact, it would've been probably just the opposite.

Um, being able to do what I want was more important than making a lot of money. And so I think, you know, that's a trade off that I was willing to make. Um, some people don't have that choice, I recognize, but if you do, I think that's a well worth trade off. Um, and I'm sure Joan has her own ideas on the subject.

Joan: No, I agree. I, you know, I also think that society as a whole is, is focused on money. And I think the commodification of life that we need, we need x things to that somehow the end, end game is happiness. Um, that, that there's such a thing as happiness, um, and ease. Um, that life should be easy and happy. Eh?

Um, I, I, I don't believe [01:43:00] that. Um, and I think people don't pay attention. People are not mindful. They just, they're just a automaton or they're walking around like this with a, you know, three by six instrument in front of their face. And they're also lulled into somnolence. Um. And obedience by all the messaging we receive.

And you have to have a really close in boundary not to receive these messages that we receive. Um, I think another thing that we, uh, Doug and I both do is we really restrict our, um, phone time, our screen time. Um, I, I really have grown to hate social media. I, I hate it. I just delete stuff except for penguins swimming and a couple of other things.

It's just, um, because I have to filter out most of which I think is bullshit. And, um, and we're lulled into believing things that are not true. And we [01:44:00] don't seek to find out whether this information is true or not true. We're just content to absorb it like a sponge, and then we, then we regurgitate it.

Whatever's passing by. And you know, it's the reason we have the situation we're in now, um, the leaders of this country are totally corrupt and, um, bought off by money. And that's what, that's what the next generation of kids is seeing, and that's absolutely reprehensible that it's okay to behave in reprehensible manner, um, because the leaders of our country are behaving in rep, rep reprehensible manners on both sides of the aisle.

Um, which is not to say I'm still not socialist, but, but it's reprehensible. Right, 

Kush: right. I mean, I think you guys are also drawing like this, uh, shop line between, between knowledge and curiosity and maybe just the mindless, uh, [01:45:00] absorption of, you know, knowledge. Like, not knowledge, let's say just information like I think there is that.

Short difference. And I, I will have to agree that so much of what we read online, like I don't think it really sticks because I think it just gets replaced by the next deluge of Right. Images, pictures, sounds, 

I agree. 

Kush: Uh, a slightly different kind of question. You know, you guys are highly accomplished and deeply thoughtful at the same time.

You don't take yourselves too seriously. I think you guys are funny, and 

Doug: I take Joan very seriously. 

Kush: Yeah, of course, of course. Of course you better do. But, but what does humor, what does the role humor play in longevity? 

Joan: We actually [01:46:00] do watch reruns of Rocky and Bullwinkle. Um, we watch these funny shows.

Sometimes we, we have, Doug watches more TV than I do, but I, um, watch for our night and um, we watch these British crime dramas. They're hilarious. Um, and we just, we make fun of a lot of stuff. So we have a sort of innate sense of, of humor. I think we make fun of a lot of stuff. Is that true, Doug? Do you 

Doug: agree with 

Joan: that?

Yeah, 

Doug: yeah, I think that's true. 

Joan: And we also have families who we make fun of a lot. 

Doug: Yeah. You'll edit this out won't too, when you do the final version. 

Kush: Okay. Alright. Yeah, sure, sure. Yeah. Um, so I have a few fun questions. Uh, before we end. Let's talk about the way you train. And you obviously bring [01:47:00] different strengths, complimentary strengths to the table.

So maybe just some rapid fire ones. Um, actually, first of all, like, do you train together at all? Like, I know one of you is focused on swimming right now. One of you is focused on running. Like where do you intersect? 

Joan: Oh, truth. Doug does not know how to swim. So there you go. There, there's that. 

Kush: Okay. 

Joan: We don't train together.

We run together, but we go to the gym. We go to the gym together. 

Kush: Okay. Okay. Who is more likely to skip stretching?

Okay. 

Joan: I do it religiously in the evening. 

Kush: Okay. Okay. That, that, that didn't even wanna say anything. You know, he just raised his hand. For those of you not watching on YouTube. Yeah. Yeah. Who is more disciplined with strength work? 

Doug: Joan is Joan's more [01:48:00] disciplined on, on everything. Let's just, but I have 

Joan: to say that, get it 

Doug: right to the point.

Joan: It's critical. Critical in swimming. If you're not doing, um, shoulder work and, and leg work, you're toasting. 

Kush: What has perhaps one habit that each of you have picked up in the last few years that has had the most dramatic impact? And I guess you mentioned learning how to cook and changing a diet, so maybe that's one of them.

Anything else? 

Joan: Eating a frozen yogurt every now and then with toppings. Sprinkles. Right. Doug? Doug does not do sprinkles. 

Doug: Yeah. I'm antis sprinkle. 

Joan: I dunno why. I don't know why, but, 

Kush: no. And so, so, so John, the question was, has most dramatically, uh, shifted your life? So is that, is, is, is that frozen yogurt with sprinkles?

Joan: Um. Being a little less, uh, judgmental, I think has been the most dramatic [01:49:00] change for me. Um, really, um, I think the meditation practice has helped and also some of the, um, mind shifts that have happened with studying pain stuff, um, allowing a little more space between my thoughts and my mouth and my thoughts and my judgment, 

Doug: and 

Joan: I still have the 

Kush: thoughts.

What about you, Doug? 

Doug: Well, I, I think I've been perfect for quite a while now, so no, no need to change. 

Kush: Right on. Okay. Um, and then maybe a different fun question, which is, in recent memory, what's been the best use of an amount close to a hundred dollars being for, uh, both of you?

Joan: What, what that we spent it on. 

Yeah. 

Joan: Oh, what did I just, um, gels, [01:50:00] um, from my trip to Vermont. What'd you spend a hundred bucks on? Yeah, a hundred bucks. Won't buy you a pair of shoes 

Doug: though. That's a problem. Yeah. You, you gotta up your game to maybe a thousand dollars. That would be, yeah. Right. What about you, doctor?

What 

have you, 

Joan: what have you spent a hundred bucks on? 

Doug: Well, you know, the only thing I buy are shoes and, um, gels for my running. So I don't know what else I would need. 

Joan: I spend, I spend money on flowers for the house. Oh. We bought a new mattress topper that. Oh, 

Kush: nice. 

Joan: Yeah, yeah. 

Kush: Yes, yes. The, the, the, you know, the, the goal to keep improving one's sleep.

Definitely.

Doug: I was gonna say, our hyper ice device is nice. 

Joan: Oh yeah. Yes, yes, yes. A [01:51:00] necessity. The 

Kush: hyper ice device. 

Joan: Yes. 

Kush: And okay, so I'm gonna ask you this question, which is, do you think your best years are behind you or ahead of you? Oh, 

Joan: no, no, no. I'm the fittest I've ever been. Um, and I hope, um, looking forward to getting fitter.

I love it. And I am looking forward to expanding the six pounds of tofu that dwells in here. Yeah. And working on it. And, and growing. 

Doug: And 

Kush: what about you, 

Doug? 

Doug: I think my best year was age five. Um, I, I really had a lot of potential then and, uh, unlimited, you know, abilities, but, um. 

Joan: So sarcastic, so sarcastic.

Kush: Well, just closing off, one beautiful thing that I see about you guys is [01:52:00] that, you know, you guys didn't meet as teenagers, but you guys found each other and have built this beautiful life together. And I think maybe this is like one tangential, uh, I don't know. Call it lesson, call it. Um, I don't know what, what, just maybe, uh, a gentle, uh, no, I, I should turn that around.

Do you guys think that you would have accomplished as much in the last couple of decades if you had not found each other? 

Joan: Oh, no. Oh, no. Definitely not. No. No. No. He is, he's taught me so much. I mean, just by example, I'm mouthy as you know, and he's, he 

Doug: just, and, and, you know, Jones has set such high standards that, you know, really is up my game.

You [01:53:00] know, I, I have to be a lot more, uh, you know, serious about how I do things and than I would've been otherwise. 

Joan: But I'm working on my perfectionism so that it doesn't become dogma. And my greatest, um, issue, perfectionism. I work on that a lot,

Kush: but I assure you that I will. Put it together and it'll sound like one seamless flow. Thank you again for coming on the show. 

Joan: I think, I think you should come and visit us. There's a lot of good climbing around here in Leavenworth and places like that. You should come visit us. 

Kush: We'll 

Joan: put you up. 

Kush: I, I would love that.

Can I throw in one last question? 

Yeah. 

Kush: Any, you guys have so much to say on the subject. Any final words that, or any thoughts that [01:54:00] didn't come up that you wanted to talk about? When it comes to being ageless,

uh, for me, 

Joan: um, letting go of perfectionism and being flexible and allowing, uh, and surrendering to what's gonna happen and being fully present for it 

Doug: and age is not a limit. I mean, if you wanna do something, go do it. Don't blame age for why you can't or cannot do something. Right. 

Joan: I love it. And don't buy women's clothing just because they say that women over 60 should be looking like this.

Don't do that.

Kush: Yes, exactly. Like, yeah, in all aspects, be who you are. Don't I have to, 

Joan: I wanna tell you something funny. So I have a very high standard of bathing suit of swimsuit wear. And the swimsuits, I know you don't swim, but girls [01:55:00] swimsuits now, um, are like thongs kind of thing. So, so I call it the slut quotient. How high is the slut quotient on any given bathing suit?

So it's very difficult to find bathing suits unless they're from overseas that are good. Although I bought a suit that was kind of low cut and had some kind of strappy crap going on in the back. So I have to ask at the pool, the lifeguards, is the wo, is the slut quotient really high or is it not? So don't let the slut go to, huh?

Kush: Don't let what Shouldn't go too high. Yes. Okay. I, I'll have to think about how to best, uh, Jim, do you go to a gym? Unpack that for myself, but l let, let, let everybody listening on the show unpack that for themselves. 

Joan: Okay. So do you go to a gym 

Kush: when I'm not on the road? Yeah. 

Joan: Yeah. So one at our gym, what I notice is that women wear these shorts, these [01:56:00] tight shorts that reveal each butt cheek kind of thing.

That's gotta go. I mean, that, that to me has just gotta go, that's my final word. Gotta stop that crap. Dress appropriate. Fair enough. 

Kush: Sounds good. I will, uh, stop recording now. 

I.