Sonnie Trotter Goes All In: Risk Demands Conviction, Balancing Family Doesn’t Mean Dimming the Fire, And, Reverse-Engineering Goals Turns Dreams Into Reality

Ageless Athlete Recording - Sonnie Trotter
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Kush: [00:00:00] I always start with this question, sunny, which is, where are you right now and what did you have for breakfast 

Sonnie: this 

Kush: morning? 

Sonnie: Oh, that's very unique. I am currently in, uh, Canmore, Alberta. We're 15 minutes outside of Banff National Park, and I made waffles for our children, and I ate some as well with a banana and a a yellow pear.

Have you ever had like a Asian pear? 

my daughter, our daughter loves the sweet, the sweet fruits. Our son is, um, incredibly diverse. He seems to like everything and anything at this point. At, at 11 years old, his appetite is, he's, he's quite tall for his age.

And so his, his appetite is expansive Now. My wife done an incredible job of exposing them. She's, she's quite into food, [00:01:00] around the world. She just loves, you know, actually one of her favorite places, uh, was visiting New York City because of the range of at, at very, very like, authentic food, um, flavors, you know, not just like Americanized or whatever, or it was like very authentic.

on one street she could sample so many different things and, um, and she really brought that into our home. So I think our kids have been exposed to a lot of different, unique flavors, which is very different from how I grew up. I grew up with very classic, you know, Canadian. Sort of, uh, standard, breakfast options.

So anyway, but waffles are still yummy and a, a, a staple. So, uh, 

Kush: I was gonna say yes, maybe, you know, a lot of kids would probably accept, accept a, a less, uh, appetizing side if they were waffles. Yeah. Served next to those. Actually, it's funny, I was at, I was traveling recently [00:02:00] and I was at this really basic motel, and they had, you know, that little, uh, breakfast counter in the morning.

Very basic. Yeah. But they had a waffle maker. Right. And that, that got me, that got me excited. 

Sonnie: Well, it, it's, it does a good job of filling you up for the, for the morning, right? Like, if, if you're. If you're in a pinch, we, we often do, uh, we actually eat a lot of eggs. I don't, for better or for worse, we, we eat a lot of eggs.

My, my wife loves to give, give them a, a good dose of protein before they get to school, things like that. So, we just don't have any today. So we, that's what we did. Fruit. Fruit and waffles. Yeah. 

Kush: Sani, for those of us who may not know who you are, how do you describe yourself these days? 

Sonnie: Ooh, that's a tricky one.

I, uh, well, I'm primarily a husband and father. That's my main role in, in life right now, I'd say. [00:03:00] And my career has been, um, kind of a mix, but, but it's all surrounded by my love for climbing. Um, I, I got into climbing when I was like. 15, 16 years old, and by, you know, 17, that was my job. I was working as a, you know, working birthday parties and belay groups, like whatever a 17-year-old could do.

Uh, I was working in the, in the climbing industry and I've slowly just stayed on track, on path, and I've done so many different types of jobs, uh, in climbing gyms, rock guiding. Um, I've worked with many incredible sponsors over the years. and I've recently also published a book with Patagonia Books Publishing Branch.

So how do I describe myself? Rock climber, husband, father, son, brother, and just, uh, passionate about being in the [00:04:00] mountains. 

Kush: Sunny. I am, yeah. So excited about having you on the podcast. I, I started climbing a little bit over 20 years ago, and back then we did not have social media the same way. And I used to love scouring the internet and I was a keen reader.

And I think I started following your blog way back when. Oh yeah. So you would write this evocative block with stories. coupled with like some climbing wisdom coupled with, maybe some cleaning tips on how you were, uh, preparing for like upcoming projects. So I guess I was not surprised when you wrote a book because you obviously have not just a talent, but like a, a love for sharing your ideas and your thoughts and your, your adventures through the written, written word.

In some way, I saw [00:05:00] echoes of my own journey as well. You know, you have, you have followed the climbers path maybe a bit more, a bit more, uh, assiduously than I have or many people have. And you know, the book brings together all these beautiful stories, you know, these adventures, and they are all tied together with this common thread of your pursuit of climbing.

So I'm wondering if you could maybe pick on one story, which kind of pulls it together, the adventure, the climbing, the risk, and, and, and share that with us. 

Sonnie: Ooh, one story. Oh. Well, I, I, first of all, I appreciate the, the, the kind words, and it's been many years actually since I've, you know, I think blogging, like has, uh, you know, was replaced by social [00:06:00] media, right?

the first thing that comes to my mind, is probably the opening chapter of the book.

and I think it's because that chapter, you know, I, I don't know if it comes through in the book or not, but what I felt when I experienced that, or when I reflected on it and when I wrote about it, was that it encompassed so many things. turning points in my life, you know, this, I had recently gotten married.

I have this long relationship with one of my climbing mentors and, and friend Tommy Caldwell, who, you know, to this day is one of the most inspiring people I know. And so that was an amazing, and then we tried to do this climb that is absolutely stunning. This beau big, beautiful wall on the side of a giant mountaintop.

And, and we didn't do it. we did not. We turned back. And a lot of that reasoning is because of me. Um, my wife was pregnant at the time with our first child, and I've always wanted to be a dad. I've always wanted to be a father and, uh, for as long [00:07:00] as I can remember anyway. and so this climbing moment where I was like not comfortable taking any more risk and I was like, I.

I just want to go home. And that was a kind of a turning point. And, and I'd say it encompassed a bit of adventure because there was these near, we, we kind of made a mistake by climbing in the heat with all this rockfall that was coming around us in this giant amphitheater. And I think in retrospect, we learned a lot about the mountain.

And I, I think that's part of climbing and mountaineering is like you, you learn, you adapt and you try again and you, and you fix the, the mistakes. And so we, we learned about the approach could be better. We learned the timing of the year, all this stuff. And we learned how where the rockfall could potentially come, but at the same time, like it was a really scary place to be.

so if I had to like think of one chapter or one moment, that was like a very [00:08:00] memorable, for me it was that one, it was like, I want to be a dad. Like I want to build a family and, And taking risk where I couldn't control the outcome. Like I felt when, when there's rockfall, like it, all it takes is one really unfortunate situation and your whole life can turn around.

And so I wasn't prepared to continue on that climb. And I, I had to tell my mentor, my, my, one of my best friends Tommy. I was like, I'm not into this anymore. I'm ready to go home. And we had really just started, we weren't even on the face. Like we weren't even on the difficult part of the, of the climb.

And we were prepared to, you know, stay on the wall for three days and we didn't even get through the, the first day. And, um, so I think, I think I chose that as my opening chapter because that was very memorable for me and I had a lot of strong feelings about that whole experience, you know? 

Kush: That, [00:09:00] that is a beautiful start to your book. I did not expect that first part of the book to be that. And I also didn't expect that answer from you because you have stories of these very dramatic and wild adventures in your book, you know, in north, I mean in the US in Canada, down to Mexico being, being, uh, uh, clearly in let's say, uh, Mexican cartel territory.

But that, time or that attempt you had with, with, uh, with, with Tommy, I mean that, that story is. It's so thoughtful. it's reflective and also sobering because yeah, we, we celebrate all the, you know, we celebrate all the sins, all the summits, the accomplishments, but then in between that [00:10:00] there's this huge, uh, layer of uh, things that did not get done and difficult decisions one had to make, and the weight of those decisions.

Because, it takes a lot of effort to plan a trip like that because you had Tommy visit you and spend time with you. And the Canadian climbing season is a little bit different than California. You know, you have, uh, you have, uh, a shorter window. Did you ever get back on that? I can't remember if that's in the book.

Did you ever get back to completing that climb, sunny? 

Sonnie: We have not. No, it's funny because we, we talk about it every year. We're like, Hey, should we, should we go back? cause it's still unclimbed and it's, you know, it's, it's a remarkable face. It's just so stunning. and I, I'm sure someone will hear about it or read about it and we'll, we'll be inspired to go attempt it and hopefully it does get climbed, whether it's by us or somebody else.

but yeah, you're right. It's, it's a lot of effort to sort of [00:11:00] like, you know, set up for a climb like this. Our, our biggest mistake was that we approached it like lcap. We approached it like a rock climb, and it, it's just not, it's a, it's an alpine objective, you know, and we were prepared to like, you know, implement rock climbing tactics.

Like that was our objective, was to climb the steepest most, you know, sheer part of the face. But surrounding that face is. This very vulnerable mountain side that's, you know, kind of unpredictable. And we approached it like, like a, like a rock climb. And that was our biggest mistake was during a heat wave with so much snow and ice still melting.

It just was very, um, just not a very like, stable environment. And so there's actually a really nice window, like at the end of August, maybe even the first week of September, where it's perfect climbing conditions, but then nights start to get cold at that elevation. it's, it's a very small [00:12:00] window of, of perfect climbing conditions.

And no, we, we haven't gone back. However, uh, the, uh, I guess climber's right side of this feature, um, going up sort of the right flank has been climbed, um, I think it's five 11. Maybe, but it took them, two, two friends of ours have climbed it, and then when they got to the ridge, they climbed the ridge to the summit and it, I think it took them a, a co two or three days also maybe to do it.

And it looks like an amazing adventure. Surprisingly good climbing on that part. There's these like maybe some cracks and columns where we were trying to climb on the left side. Up the main face was more like horizontal edges, like, have you ever been to Lake Louise? Uh, court site? It's like, 

Kush: I haven't yet.

Sonnie: Okay. It's on the 

Kush: list, but yeah. 

Sonnie: Yeah. It's these, more of these looks, looks like more of these horizontal edges when you can, uh, face climb up there. So anyway, um, no, we haven't been back. Uh, 

Kush: so Sunny, tell [00:13:00] us more about Yeah. This objective, what makes it, uh, so alluring and, and so challenging. 

Sonnie: It's not super easy to get to, you know, it's very high up this mountain.

what's this, what's this place? Where is it? It's be, it's actually, well, it's, it's right on the Continental divide, basically. It's called Mount Steven. And you know, this, this wall was called, uh, it was coined the Great Wall of China, because when you see it from the road, I mean, it is, it is just huge.

It's huge and it's beautiful. Like, it's, it's, it's very alluring. It looks like, it looks like a regular mountain, and then it just sheared in half. And so there's this massive face that's just hanging over the highway. Like you could see it from, you know, you could see it from the road anytime you drive past it.

And the fact that it's just so steep and large and colorful, [00:14:00] it's, it's like. Pink and orange and purple and, uh, beige, like yellow colors. Wow. And it's, it's got all the different, it's like a mosaic. It's beautiful wall. And, and the fact that it has never been done is alluring in itself. that's a climb that kind of got away.

And to be honest, I don't feel like, I don't feel sad about it at all. You know, like, you know, it would be an amazing climb to do, but there are so many other fun climbs to do. And, you know, and when we got down, I mean, I don't know if I put this one in the book, but a couple of days later we were ragging doing more easy climbs with, with around Canmore.

And uh, Tommy was like, you know, I think that was the right decision to come down. And, uh, at the time it was hard to do because we were so committed. We rarely, we rarely back [00:15:00] off things, but, it did feel like the right thing to do for me emotionally. 

Kush: Tommy's words might, might have, yeah.

Must have hit you like maybe this little, little wave of relief in a way because perhaps you felt that you had let your client partner down who had sacrificed and invested efforts to go on this attempt with you and then 

Sonnie: Yeah. 

Kush: Because things didn't work out and I guess you got, you got cold feet and you had to back out.

Sonnie: Yeah. Uh, there's a phrase in the book where I say it when I say that. I told him I was finished. I was like, I'm done. Uh, after this rockfall that, you know, nearly hit us. that's when all my enthusiasm and everything just. Drained out of me. And I, I told him, I'm finished, I'm done. And it, there's a word in the, a sentence in the book where it says, it felt like it came from somebody else's mouth.

Like I, I didn't feel like I was the one speaking, you [00:16:00] know, I felt like I just heard the words sort of in the air. but then, uh, but, but Tommy's such a reasonable, you know, he's, he is an amazing, he's such a high achiever, but he's also a very reasonable person. And so, you know, he, he was on board with that.

And, uh, couple of hours later we were back in the bottom of the valley and everything was fine. There was like, it's, it felt so peaceful when you're down on the ground looking up. But, but sometimes when you're up there and you feel like you are losing control, it feels like you're like, I, I need.

I need to get out of here. I need to feel control again. And so I was a little bit maybe in over my head and emotionally and not physically, I would say like from a physical perspective, we felt like the strongest we'd ever felt in our lives. You know, we were, uh, I was early thirties. I felt incredibly strong and fit.

It was more of the, [00:17:00] it was more of the environment. I think that, that had me shaken and, and not just, and also the circumstance. 

Kush: Yeah, exactly. Not just the, not just the physical environment, but also just this, uh, this personal storm of 

Sonnie: mm-hmm. 

Kush: Circumstances that were happening in your life, like, with the, with, with the baby on the way. 

Sonnie: Yeah. 

Kush: I can only imagine. There's just this like, uh, emotional explosion that's. Going through and you are having to think about so many things at that time and make these decisions. And you make another good point, which is something which is not always difficult to get across to non climbers, is just how binary that situation is between being on a, being on a rock wall and being just in some level of constant risk and danger, particularly in an alpa environment.

And then the moment you actually finish the last reel [00:18:00] and you put your approach shoes on, and it's just like, poof, like it just totally changes because you're like, wow, I have left, you know, the, uh, the underworld. I'm, I'm back to like survival here. 

Sonnie: Yeah. Yeah. It, it, um, you know, I think there's a line in the book too where I reflect on, like, sometimes you get back to the ground and you're like, you wonder.

What was all the fuss about, you know? And, um, but in that particular case, I, I still stand by that we made the right decision. Sure. And, um, yeah, and, and to climb things, something like that, it really just comes down to like, uh, again, timing, commitment to, to, to, to block off the time. I feel like today, you know, over 10 years later, it's like we can't even find the, we can barely find the time to climb for two days together, you know?

so yeah, it, it, it gets a little bit trickier, but who knows? There's, there's a lot of climbs that I'm like, I wonder if I will be able to stay fit enough to return [00:19:00] to in my mid fifties when our kids are, in their early twenties, you know, or something like that. Like, will, you know, will I have more appetite for taking on bigger objectives again?

Like that where, you know, the consequences are not as, as severe because I've, I've done my duty of, you know, loving and raising these children to adults. So there's, there's a part of me that, that wonders what, what it'll be, what it'll look like in 10 years from now, you know? So 

Kush: Canada seems to have just so much unclimbed rock.

I mean, for one thing, it's just physically bigger than the US and just like Western Canada just is huge. And I've only been to one port, you know, the, the most popular, well-known climbing area, which is Squamish. But when you look at, when you look at the terrain, it just, just endless. [00:20:00] So is there really just so much unclimbed rock.

Unexplored terrain in Canada. And is it because, is it just logistics and challenges of weather or is it also just because Canada for a size doesn't really have a lot of people so they're not so many people going after? 

Sonnie: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's possible. I think So for example, our, our town of Canmore is like 15,000 people, whereas compared to maybe a Boulder, which is maybe a hundred and 130,000 people or something like that with all the students, right.

And, and a huge percentage of that population are climbers. And when you look around the, the Boulder, Denver, Estes Park, you know, Loveland, whatever, like region, there's, you know, tens of thousands of climbers. And so, and, and very strong, talented, capable [00:21:00] climbers who could easily go do a route like this.

And there are. Plenty of Canadian climbers who are incredibly strong and talented, who could also put up a route like that. you know, a lot of it just has to do with time and motivation of whether or not they're called or they've put in the, the time to gain experience in an environment like that.

I certainly had not, like I, I treated it like a rock climb, not an alpine climb. And if you're an alpine climber in Canada, there are, there are so many objectives still to be explored and, and, and completed. and just in, like you talk about Canada and its potential, like just in Baffin Island alone, there's, I mean, that is literally an endless valley of big walls.

Like, like. Yosemite style, big walls to climb. Endless, endless. Like it, I think it would just go on for decades. Yeah. And centuries un 

Kush: unlike. Yeah. I guess, I guess the little crucial [00:22:00] difference might be you can fly to San Francisco and drive a huge few hours to get to Yosemite and, and be in 75 degree weather.

Yes. And often is just a little bit. Uh, 

Sonnie: I, yeah. And our, like, our season in Canada in general is quite a bit shorter. Like I was referring as a rock climb. There's maybe like a month where this is like peak conditions, so there's 11 months where you just not able to do it. So as for alpine climbing, I think the, the Canadian Rockies are, are, are, are massive.

you know, you can get into a lot of trouble here and, and explore new things. But yeah, we, I mean we, we do have quite a bit of, quite a bit of climbing, but the US is so much more vast. Like you have the Wind River Valley, you have Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, California, like even Washington, like you have a bigger footprint, you know, and I guess if, if you look at all of Canada, like, I've never been up to, um, [00:23:00] like the Circ, you know, with the Northwest Territories.

But yeah, I don't know. I, I think maybe it's very similar. We just do have a smaller population and a smaller window of, of, of potential for, for free climbing. So we'll see. I, there's this, um, ridge line that I'd like to do on Mount Steven that's not very hard, maybe five 10. But I've always wanted to go back just to stand on some on the summit of that feature.

so we'll see. But this year it doesn't look like it's gonna happen. And then we have the Bugaboos, which is not too far, and. There's still plenty of of objectives out there, for sure. For hungry, curious climbers. 

Kush: Yeah. Sonny, when you were talking about just the decisions that you were making and actually you decided to turn around, family came first.

One of the reasons, and it just made me think of perhaps your arc as a climber and just as a human, where you [00:24:00] seem to be completely committed to this task at hand, this path that you find yourself on. And I guess one thing I noticed about you is compared to, let's say, other climbers at the very top end, you didn't start climbing until you were a teenager.

Like you were not unlike Tommy. Tommy started climbing, you know, when he was a baby almost, right? Yeah. And you started climbing much later. You discovered it and then you just went all in. That's what it seems like. So 

Sonnie: what it felt like, so, 

Kush: yeah, and I feel like it, it just seems like, yeah, that's just this part of your personality, which is maybe, it's like just this commitment.

So what gave you that self-belief to take that leap at that age when you had, you know, you, [00:25:00] you discovered climbing and then you just kind of went all in and you just made all your decisions to be able to pursue it with full earnest 

Sonnie: and maybe, maybe people can relate to this or, or not, but climbing touched me in a certain way that I was like, this.

Is all I want to do in, on, you know, I, I have this sort of perspective on life that maybe might be depressing for some people, but I find it, uh, uh, more uplifting. But basically all we're doing is just killing time on this planet because there's a beginning and an end and in between all we're doing is just figuring out what we like to do with our time and, and living in, you know, in, in Canada, I was fortunate enough to have like the, possibility of leisure time.

If I so chose to be poor, I could climb. yeah, I didn't feel, uh, overly other than financial commitments, I didn't feel overly restricted [00:26:00] by other things. We, we live in a relatively peaceful country, so I was fortunate to have the opportunity to just commit to living in my truck.

Living off of, you know, canned tuna and macaroni and cheese every night and just, you know, I could budget like $10 a day and just climb all the time. And so my commitment to it is just that I didn't, I wasn't happy, as happy doing anything else. I was always the most fulfilled after a long day of climbing.

And so to me, I just didn't see any other path forward for the next decade of my life. I was just, I just made the decision. I remember reading Lynn Hill's book when I was like 20 years old, and I remember thinking, you know, I just wanna live like that for 10 years. Like, I, I didn't care about education, I didn't care about, uh, having any money in the bank.

I just [00:27:00] wanted to live the next decade of my life, and I was going to figure the rest out when I was 30. I was gonna figure it out later. Like, I just, I knew that if I didn. Pursue that calling, I guess that I wouldn't be nearly as as fulfilled. And so, yeah, I think, I mean, it probably was a conscious choice to say, you know what?

I'm not going to pursue anything else. I'm just gonna live this incredible life and travel to these incredible places. because that's what made me the happiest version of myself at that time. And ultimately choosing that path is what led me to so many other amazing things. It led me to, you know, a, a career in, in within climbing.

Uh, it led me to meeting my amazing wife who, you know, is also passionate about these places that we love to go to, where we live, and, and being very physically active as well. And so it's [00:28:00] incredible when you commit to something how it, how all of these other parts of life unfold. And I'm just very grateful that I, you know, I, I was able to do that.

And it was scary at times. 'cause I'm really close with my family who lived back in Ontario. It was scary. Like leaving and being like, I'll visit you when I can. That was, or friends or relationships that were not, they weren't able to work out because of I guess my, my, my commitment to that, to that climbing life, because it was, there was a time where I was very selfish.

I had to, it's like, I want to go here, how do I do that? And nothing else mattered. 

Kush: tiny, you, you know, you are quite humble about your climbing accomplishments. You are not humble about your love for climbing, but, but you were accomplishing the hardest climbs [00:29:00] in. North America at that time, but you didn't know that when you decided to kind of pack it all in and move into an automobile and leave your parents home at, at adolescence.

And was there like some deep conviction you had also that you had this talent, like you were early in the sport, but if you just went all in, you could realize this potential that was hiding in you? 

Sonnie: I guess I, I did it. I mean, I wanted to, I wanted to climb these roots that I saw in those magazines. I was like, that to me, that was like the, the ultimate when, when I saw things like, just do it, you know, in Smith Rock, like it was such an iconic.

Difficult climb, but it was beautiful. It was so beautiful. And I was like, I, I have to go try, like, I have to go try before I can [00:30:00] feel, you know, like, I don't know, it was like a restlessness. Like, I was like, I, I have to go try that. And then after doing something like that or some of the other roofs I've done, it was like, whoa, that's crazy.

Like, I, it's incredible what we can do as humans if we are completely devoted to something, you know? It, like, it opened my eyes to the desire, like I think, I think the greatest things that have been done are because of desire, right? Yeah. You don't do things if, if, like you don't push through physical uncertainty or mental or emotional uncertainty.

If. You don't truly desire the journey, you know, whether the outcome is successful or not. you want to at least desire to try. And I think that, that the, I just had a really strong desire. and I think that's, I [00:31:00] don't think I'm particularly, talented climber above and beyond, uh, other athletes. I think there's so many exceptional climbers out there that are physi.

I just don't know if, if we share the same level of desire. And at that time, that's all I wanted. And so, yeah, I pursued it. I went all in. It worked out for the most part. but there are still some hard climbs that got away that, that I never got to try like Tommy's, uh, flux Luther at, uh, in Colorado. Like at that time, in that era, I was starting to spend more and more time in Canada, less time in the us.

I was putting up my own roots and so I didn't get to do all the roots I wanted that I dreamt about doing. But I, I did a fair chunk and then started getting more active in putting up new roots, which, you know, in my mid twenties, which was a super fun journey as well that led to things like the path and Cobra Crack and climbs here in the Rocky Mountains that were, I, [00:32:00] I think I was more intrigued at that time to, to explore new things rather than just going around and repeating others, you know, 'cause that's rewarding as well.

But once I discovered putting up new roots, it was a whole new level of like, I don't know, curiosity and fulfillment and joy. And so, yeah, I think my life did take sort of this like bell curve of like, um, you know, discovering it, repeating new roots or repeating people's roots, learning about what. Where the standard is and then trying to make contributions myself to that, to that to the community, you know?

Kush: you know, in those early years you were trying to test your medal Yeah. And pursue these dream climbs and the path of your heroes. And I think at some point once you had done that, I [00:33:00] guess there is that urge to, put your own, kind of create your own art, you know?

Yeah. Find your own, find your own lines, your own, almost like your legacy in a way. And then also the fact that maybe after spending all this time away. In the us you come back to Canada and you realize, wow. Like I, all these things that I've learned mm-hmm. And all my progress as a climber, I can, I can come and like bring that to this canvas, which is in my country, in my backyard.

One fascinating aspect of what you said is that, is that I love that like this, um, this pursuit of something with complete dedication because of the love for it without knowing the outcome. 

Sonnie: Mm-hmm. 

Kush: And there is this like [00:34:00] crazy contrast, you know, where you want that outcome so bad because you wanna send those lines at the same time.

You want to be so invested in the journey 

Sonnie: mm-hmm. That 

Kush: the outcome almost doesn't matter. 

Sonnie: Yeah. 

Kush: Can you talk a little bit about that in your words?

Sonnie: Well, I would just go back to saying like that the, the joy that, that climbing brought me emotion, like, you know, physically, emotionally, spiritually, like the, the joy that I felt through climbing daily and also the, the sort of, I don't know if it was pain, but like the, if I wasn't climbing, like if I was stuck in a place for a month with bad weather or I was home working because I didn't, I ran out of money that was like the hardest month of my life, or three months of my life because I wasn't, I, it was like the [00:35:00] opposite of climbing, you know?

It wasn't just that I was climbing a little bit, I was like sometimes not climbing at all, like it would be winter. I would be gym climbing a little bit, but my heart was like, I wanna go travel. And so it was almost like the opposite of being fully fulfilled. And, but I knew that I was working towards something.

The reason I was working was to save up my money. I would plan a trip and like whether I succeeded at that trip, like climbing at my limit or not, I was committed to going to see these places. The successful part of the climb is like the cherry on top.

But everything else, it's the anticipation, it's the preparation, it's the planning. It's the excitement of going to a new climbing area. I remember going to Smith Rock and smelling like the juniper tree that I'd never smelled before. And that that scent in the air when you get to Oregon is like Central Oregon is.

Incredible, that high desert feeling like that's an amazing part of the world. And they all are like the [00:36:00] feeling of Yosemite Valley on a beautiful day with a, you know, a sunny day with a, and you look up at, you know, like it's just these incredible places and feeling physically connected to it, trying hard, getting, getting tired, sweating, you know, it's just all part of this, like, you know, and then meeting communities and all these little places, like, it was always, to me, it was always the whole package and the success was like, it was always like this little cherry on top that, that to me was like, I'm gonna go whether I succeed or not like it, it was never about going in order to succeed so that I could do another trip.

It was like, I'm committed to 10 years of living like this. This is just how I want to live. It wasn't, if that makes sense. It 

Kush: No, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it 

Sonnie: wasn't, you know, I'm, I'm grateful and fortunate that things [00:37:00] worked out okay, like I was succeeding at things. But again, I think it's because I had just had a really strong desire to, to, to complete some of these routes.

Um, and I wasn't, I wasn't gonna let a lot of them go. I wasn't gonna just dabble, if that makes sense. I was like, you know, if I'm gonna try, like, just do it in Smith Rock, for example, was the first route I tried in Smith Rock. It was like, I drove 50 hours across the con the continent with my girlfriend at the time.

Wow. Lisa. And we were like trading, sleeping in the front seat, and then the other person would drive for five hours, we'd switch and we just drove straight through because it was winter, uh, it was like March, trying to get across, you know, de mowing Iowa and all this stuff. And we'd get straight to Smith Rock.

50 hours and literally get to the parking lot. We have like, it was like one o'clock in the afternoon after, and I was like, let's go. And we hiked an hour straight to [00:38:00] just do it. I didn't warm up on anything. I just got straight on that one rock climb yeah. And then like after seven working days, managed to do the route.

And then one of the highlights you were talking about meeting some of your mentors. You know, like at this stage of my life, I was, I was just 20 or 20 or 21 and, uh, Yuji, Hama and oh had had come to do just do it that same spring. It was, uh, it was in April and I had just done the route and they found me in the parking lot and they came over and they were asking me about beta and I was like, oh yeah, like left hand, right hand.

And did you, did you use the intermediate and. They hadn't done it yet, and I can't remember if they did do it or not on that trip, but it was like one of the highlights of my life was them approaching me. And I had only read about them in the magazines. I'd never met them before. And I was like, it was such an honor to be a part of that conversation with [00:39:00] them.

And so I went from like idolizing them, having them on my walls to then, you know, conversing with them about this like legendary route. So it was really, really, really, uh, memorable moment for sure. 

Kush: Yeah. What a moment of, uh, just awe and humility to definitely not only come face to face with these two absolute legends of the sport and your personal heroes, and then be in a position to maybe just.

Not go behind just being a fanboy to actually offer them some kind of help in their, in their own mission and to actually succeed in like an objective that they, I'm guessing it must have been, I, I remember seeing this movie that they made of their US trip, I think it was called.

That's the, yeah. The professionals and they just kind of went from like crack to crack and Yeah. I can't remember which climbs they attempted. It was a, [00:40:00] yeah, it seemed like a very audacious trip to definitely to come the US for like one trip and just take all of Yeah. All of America's hardest climbs.

Sani, you went on these adventures and you, you just, you had this deep, deep conviction, which is amazing. Was there any time in those, in those years when maybe that conviction was shaken? Some way, and maybe how you were able to kinda bounce back and I feel like there's a lesson there for us. 

Sonnie: I would say not, not so much, uh, in my, like my physical climbing was I shaken again? It's because I, I wasn't, how do I describe this? I, I was trying to figure out what I was gonna do with my life, I suppose. And there was times when I was on a trip, I was [00:41:00] living in the back of my truck, uh, I was missing some of my friends or I had just gone through a breakup and I was kind of alone.

And all of my climbing partners would go back to their home in Boulder or. San Francisco or Los Angeles, and I'd be stuck kind of in this climbing area. And back, you know, 25 years ago, a lot of these climbing areas weren't as busy as they are today. There would only be, you know, three or four or five permanent people trying to live out of their cars and stuff like that.

There was periods where I'd be like, man, what am I doing here? You know, like trying to read, like reading a book and, 'cause there's no, you know, really didn't, there's no wifi, didn't own a cell phone for many, many, many years and just, just waiting, like, kind of like the classic being in a, in a tent on an expedition where it's storming and they're, you're just stuck for days and days and days or weeks.

And I was like, what am I doing with [00:42:00] my life? You know? There was moments like that for sure where I was like, should I just go home and get a job? And get a career? And, Do the, i i the, the typical lifestyle, but home to me was so far away from where I wanted to be. I wanted to be like in the southwest.

I wanted to be where the action was. And it was places like Boulder. It was Utah, it was Nevada, it was California, and I wanted to be there. And I, and also other places around the world like that, like, you know, the south of France. And, and like, I wanted to be in those places. And so the only way for me to do it because I didn't have any money, was to just suffer through those periods of darkness, I guess, or bad weather or lack of partnerships and stuff.

And I just had to endure those phases. But there was doubt for sure that crept in and being like, what am I doing? Why am I doing this? And then. [00:43:00] Honestly, the sun would come back out. All the climbing partners would come back and I'd send this like, really beautiful climb and I'd be like, this is why I'm doing this like this.

This is so worth it. And every time, my cup was sort of, my cup of enthusiasm was slowly dwindling. I would have this incredible week or month and it would just fill it right to the top and sometimes overflowing. And I would just go from climbing area to climbing area and I would just do this over and over.

So I, I hope that touches on your question. 

Kush: I, I love that answer, sunny, because I can totally relate. So as you've noticed, I am living out of a van right now, and I've also been on this journey in a van and. Going to climbing and, and surfing areas for the last one year. And yeah, a, a bit of a late bloomer on that [00:44:00] front.

but exactly like, you know, you go to these amazing areas and you spend time there that you have, you have dreamt about, and then like, and you spent maybe too long there, and then this group of friends that you found yourself with, they leave. Yeah. And then all of a sudden there's this vacuum and there's this vacuum and you're by yourself and you don't have people to turn to.

And, uh, and maybe you, you know, like I think these days compared to your early days, you were literally in a vacuum because you did not have Yeah. Forget phone service. Forget, forget the internet. You, you mean you didn't even have phone service. 

Sonnie: What, and just, sorry, I, I want you to ask that question. Go ahead. But I just wanna say that, uh, every time I had those moments of darkness or doubt. I just knew that the alternative was not nearly, was not what I wanted. And so I, that's what helped me persevere because the alternative [00:45:00] was not an option for me, if that makes sense.

Kush: A hundred percent. Sonny and I, I can relate to that as well. Like, I left a life in San Francisco behind. Mm-hmm. I had a job in tech, a nice apartment, and it was, it had stopped being fulfilling. It had, it had lost it. Had lost it. It felt like just, it felt like a, like a drain on me. Mm-hmm. I had lost the energy for it.

So, exactly. Like, I think about that and I'm like, no, wait a second. You know, it looks, looks nice from a distance. Yeah. Looks shiny and bright, but it's not the life that I want and that's why. I chose this other path. Yeah. So I guess Yeah, you're right. Exactly. Like, um, 

Sonnie: and, and there are different chapters of our lives, there are different times for doing certain things, you know, and, and that's also okay.

That's actually wonderful that we have these different phases of life too. And, and what you're doing now and, and you know, the way I'm living life, it's, it's different than it [00:46:00] was, but it's also wonderful. I heard a really amazing quote that I've actually tried to embrace heavily and I think I always have, um, just without knowing it.

But when, you know, they say the grass is always greener on the other side, you know, that type of human condition. Well, I heard a quote that says, um, the grass is greenest where you water it. it, it makes, it just makes me like, uh, appreciate my journey because, you know, despite. Those feelings of doubt or being down the, the feelings of being fulfilled or overflowing, always surpassed that by tenfold, and it's because I stayed and I nurtured and I watered my grass.

If that's, if that makes sense. 

Kush: No, I mean, I, I really think that that quote was perhaps written for you because the little that I've learned about your, your journey over the years and through your book, it seems that you have chosen to go all [00:47:00] in and invest in your, in your, in your goals and your life at that moment and not think about other things, but be fully present.

And, and I notice that now you are a family man, right? From making breakfast for the kids to taking them on big adventures at times and. Yeah. Maybe this is a fun segue. You, you first moved into, let's say, a, a van when you were a teenager, and then later on in your life you did van life with your young family and, and that just, I think that just blows anybody's mind.

You know, like it's one thing to do that as a single person or as a couple, but to do that with two young kids. So, just for fun, can you, can you paint us a picture of one of those [00:48:00] crazy, messy, beautiful family van moments? 

Sonnie: I mean, I, I don't know if I can, I don't know if there's one particular day, but you know, it's, it's, uh, maybe 

Kush: take us to, take us to, why did you guys decide to.

Instead of, you know, I don't know, spending time raising your family in a, in a home, why did you guys do this thing? Well, 

Sonnie: well, we traveled a lot with our infant son when we just had the one child because under two years old, there, there are cheaper to travel with and they just don't put up too much of a fuss.

They, they cry, they, they nap. They, you know, you, you do the same thing at home with a, with a small baby like that, that you would do anywhere else in the world. And so I, if you're doing the same thing, why stay home if you don't, if you don't have to? [00:49:00] And we were like, well, this is an opportunity for us to get in as much traveling as we can before, because once they, they turn, you know, three, um, it gets a little bit harder because you can't.

Fly. Uh, you can't fly for free as Right. That's, and they need a seat and, you know, but when they're very, very small, it's just easy to, so we did a lot of that. Uh, we, we traveled quite a bit when our son was born. Then we settled, we slowed down, I think a little bit for like a year when he was like three.

And then our daughter was born and we're like, okay, you know, how are we gonna do this? Um, and so we, we, we purchased a small, very small camper trailer and a van. And between the two of them, we had flexibility. You know, one of, sometimes we could sleep in the van, sometimes in the trailer, or like two and two or one and two.

It was almost like two separate quarters. We had the, it was like a small van and a small trailer, but together it created a lot of [00:50:00] flexibility. And so if our daughter was having a hard night sleeping, you know, I would take her into the van and sleep and bottle feed her and things like that. Um, but basically my, my.

My philosophy was like, it's just this. We're gonna be doing the same parenting things 24 hours a day, whether we live in our home or we live on the road. it doesn't change what you do as a parent. And so the security of having a home meant nothing to me like this, but the freedom to take our kids and also go climbing.

Like if, if Lydia and I could climb for an hour a day, it was worth it. So 24 hours a day we're, we're, we're juggling life, sleeping, surviving, feeding, changing clothes, potty training, all that stuff. But if we could climb for an hour a day and go bouldering and, and it was a success, you know, I think any parent will tell you that, that if they can, if [00:51:00] they get a, an hour of climbing a day, it's a, it's a win.

And, but we didn't wanna just, I just didn't want to go to the gym for an hour. I wanted to go to Bishop. I wanted to go to the Buttermilks or, you know, things like that, or, or they're bouldering in Yosemite is amazing. yeah. And, and luckily I have an incredible wife who's inspired by the same places I am.

She loves the national parks, she loves the canyons and the rivers and the mountains, and so it wasn't a very hard sell to, to push her to do that, you know, we would juggle work obligations from the trailer or sometimes we would home like we'd. Like home, sit for people.

Like, you know, during the Christmas holidays we had a friend and bishop who was away, and she's like, oh, you can stay at our house for, you know, 10 days while we're gone, or things like that. So yeah, it was, it was, it worked out really well, but you kind of have to show up. Like if you, if we weren't there, we wouldn't have had that opportunity to [00:52:00] house sit.

Right. And so, you know, there is that other quote, like, you know, 90% of whatever it is of life is showing up. And I do believe in that. I believe that you have to be in the place in order for something to occur. If I was still in Ontario, nothing would've occurred, yeah, I, I and I, I talk to my family all the time.

I love them and miss them. And, you know, we, we talk all the time, but I don't, I can't live. I'm not, I can't live there. The life that I want is not there. The people that I want, the community is there. They're one, I, I miss the people, but. The, the life that I wanna live on a daily basis is not there. It's out in lots of different places.

And so I created the ability, my wife and I created the ability to move around with our family and continue loving life as much as we can despite the craziness. Yeah. 

Kush: Just quickly, in that long Triped family, perhaps [00:53:00] what was, which place may have been just the most welcoming and easiest place to have two young kids in a van and be able to, uh, actually enjoy yourself?

Sonnie: Yeah. I think, I actually think Bishop was one of the, we, we spent, uh, well over a month just in Bishop alone and. The weather was consistently pleasant for the most part. it's a small town, so getting going, driving around, getting groceries or whatever needs you, you have, or you know, just hanging out at a coffee shop for an hour with your family and enjoying oatmeal and coffee and, and warming up before the day of climbing.

And also the options, the, the, all the cool different areas that you can park pretty close by. You know, I know Bishop is now getting very, very busy and very popular. but um, I felt like we [00:54:00] had a really good, a really good time there. It was very, um. I wanna say the word easy, but it, it felt, it felt good.

It, it felt, it was the, the sun was always nice and warm. And, and the rock is beautiful to climb on. And, and there's a lot of variety. A ton of variety. So, not just like in the rock type, but also like, I could have a project or a climbing objectives for the day, and my wife could, and then our kids could scramble around and the, sometimes we'd find areas with like really flat landings for our kids to hang out on.

So Bishop is beautiful. 

Kush: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Bishop is, is paralyzed and Yes. Also comfortable. 

Sonnie: Yeah. 

Kush: Because of all those things. And perhaps what might be, as a contrast, what might have been, uh, just, yeah. Just the most annoying or challenging place to, uh, to have visited or traveled through. 

Sonnie: Well. So it, it's kind of the same, it's two, [00:55:00] two sides of the, of the two sides.

But Yosemite is really great. It's a, it's a small area. Like again, you have to drive the, the track sometimes to get, but the difficulties are, you know, finding, securing your camping site. Um, especially if you're there trying to get like canceled reservations or if you don't have a solid booking, it can be a little fi finicky.

Sometimes we would have to drive way out of the park to get a campsite and then we'd come back in. But if you do have a spot and you can settle in, Yosemite is very nice also. but then, you know, a huge snow storm came in and it made life very difficult. So, we had to leave and, you know, so sometimes the weather, when you're, when you're kind of living that life, the weather often will dictate whether or not you stay or go.

And, um, whether you have a camping site or like reservations or a place to stay that's secure. Sometimes that doesn't matter. Sometimes the weather just says, Hey, it's time [00:56:00] to go home, or it's time to go somewhere else. And so yeah, that, I'd say that was a bit finicky. Um, was Yosemite was a bit challenging.

Trying to secure, I feel like sometimes it's like it takes a big chunk of your day just to set up your situation to make sure that you have a place to sleep. And it's not like we couldn't live like we were when it was just me or just me and my wife because we had this family to take care of. We had to make sure certain.

We had a place to stay, that we weren't gonna get kicked out, that we, that we could take care of our family first, our, our children. So it, it wasn't as easy, I guess so to speak. 

Kush: Sunny. I, I, I can only imagine. Yes. Making me think that, you know, just me and my dog in a van and sometimes I have to drive like half an hour at night to find that comfortable place to park, which is, which feels safe, which is, has some amenities, which is level, and then to have to do it with small kids and Yeah.

Yosemite and [00:57:00] Bishop. It's like a, like a study in logistics contrast. They're both enchanting places. 

Sonnie: Yes. Just 

Kush: absolute like, uh, outdoor marvels. But Yosemite is so complicated. Like, it's, it's difficult. But one thing I did Mar Yeah. I did find remarkable about your time in Yosemite is, and maybe you, maybe a triple role is here.

You, you're managing family responsibilities, but you are still pushing hard with your goals and loved and was inspired by your, your feet of being able to send Pineapple Express, I think. 

Sonnie: Mm-hmm. 

Kush: And in the middle of managing everything and doing this iconic rock face. And I'm curious, like, what did you learn about being able to,

able to have the drive and the capacity to achieve this [00:58:00] huge goal? And did you surprise yourself? 

Sonnie: Uh, I think I did. I think when I, I, I remember thinking it would take a miracle to, to do this climb and to do it in a style that, you know, I was really proud of, which was, you know, trying to do it in a, in a day, um, you know, and lead every pitch, you know, that was really, uh, a really memorable, exciting, terrifying, uncertain day.

I knew there was a snowstorm coming the, the following day. I knew that this was sort of my last window of opportunity. Um, I wouldn't get to, I mean, I, I maybe could go back the next fall, but probably not with my family. We would, um, probably shift gears a little bit. Like I think living out of a van has a, has a, a timeline to it for a little while.

And then I think, you know, there's, like I was saying earlier, there's different chapters and uh, and I think that comes through in the book. Like there's a chapter to, there's a time and place for doing [00:59:00] something and going all in, and then there's a time and place for making adjustments. And recalibrating and then maybe doing it again, but maybe in a different way or in a different place.

And I just felt like at that time, like that was my main window of opportunity to do this climb. And um, I think the thing that I learned from it was, consistency. Because when we had our, when we had our daughter, my climbing went was terrible. I was climbing. I was not being, I was not able to be as physical as I wanted to be because she was so young.

Like from the time she's born, you know, probably the first nine months is very, very all in. And we had this other three-year-old who is, you know, maybe not sleeping well. And, and so, oh boy, by the time I started, uh, you know, starting to, we went on this trip, she was eight months old and I started climbing again.

I was, felt very out of my body. I felt like I [01:00:00] couldn't. Communicate with my body to do what I asked it to do. And so we went to the valley. I tried this route, it felt very hard, and I was just getting so tired. Tom, uh, sorry. Alex and I were doing, you know, like ground up mission. And then we, we, we, we try to um, uh, fix this climb, like try to fix the route so we knew where the climb would go and we were cleaning it.

Still, it was a little bit dirty and so we were putting in a lot of labor and putting in some bolts here and there. And I would come down and I'd be so tired and fatigued, I'd just be crushed. Like, I had almost like, I had not felt in my adult life. I was getting a little bit older. I was, you know, late thirties not sleeping very well and just getting, and just not climbing it and just getting crushed.

And so I had a lot of doubt. And then over the next six months, between like the spring and the fall of November when I did the climb, A lot turned around and I think it just [01:01:00] showed up consistency again. I was doing roots that were long, like a hundred, 110 foot long roots that I, I love that style. I love that length.

I love, I love that fight of like 90, 80, 90, a hundred feet. 50 feet is fun too, but it feels a bit more like powerful and bouldering. Once you get past like 70, 80 feet, it feels like you're really fighting. and I, I just love that style. And so I was climbing in Smith Rock and here in the Rockies, went to Squamish, was climbing longer roots like that.

And by the time I came back in the fall, I felt like I had, I was a new climber again. I had completely changed my base and felt, felt fit and strong, although. I didn't know if I felt that fit or that strong. So I still had a lot of doubt and managed to pull it off. And it was a, it was a wonderful climb, uh, climbing memory and day.

And, and, and a lot of people are doing that route now, which is super exciting to see. It's getting a [01:02:00] quite a fair bit of traffic and, and repeats and it's awesome. I, I, I love being, uh, a part of that contribution. 

Kush: That might be my favorite style of climbing as well. You know, like long sport route or just long roots where you kind of get into that flow.

Sonnie: Yes. And 

Kush: then you, you, you, you know, basically you climb, climb, climb until you can't anymore. 

Sonnie: Yeah, totally. Yeah. And then you, you, 

Kush: you come off and it's just, yeah. That, that's just, to me, that captures the essence of what, what I love about the sport. But you were, again, like, I, I'm just blown this honey. You were, you managed, you know, it's one thing to, let's say.

Be able to send, let's say, your hardest Boulder problem, for example, right? Because bouldering requires just less, let's say, time commitment in a way. Like you can train in a train, maybe with your family around you, and you can be at the boulder for a couple hours and go all out and then, you know, go back to making dinner for the kids.

But [01:03:00] you would, you did this like really long climb on lcap, and it's not just the climbing itself and the preparation you talked about, but it's also the training. And you talked a little bit about like how over the season you, how, how did you manage to like, I don't know, create that kind of fitness to be able to then show up in Yosemite?

Mm-hmm. And then be, and, and then, you know, have this like high pressure window of time where you're like, okay, I have to be ready on point. Yeah. So when I get there, I have just these few days to execute. 

Sonnie: Yeah. 

Kush: And you did, you know, yeah. Snowstorm coming the next, I mean, this is kind of like, yeah, the makings of like, kind of like a movie, right?

Like everything just coming together and then there's this climax and, you know, the hero, hero's journey basically. 

Sonnie: So I kind of geek out, like, uh, at the end of the day, I'm just a climbing nerd and I really like to reverse engineer [01:04:00] my objectives. And I think I started doing that like quite early on in my climbing.

I'd be like, okay, I wanna climb 14 C or 14 d or whatever it was, you know, back in 2000. And I was like, and this style is in the, the wall is in this angle or this angle. And I knew that if I did things at this angle, it just wouldn't prepare me for this angle. Like, I, I just, I just reversed, reversed everything.

And I was like, okay, well, and if I need to do 80 moves in this style, right? How do I prepare my body for 80 repetitions of this style at my limit? And so I think I always just reversed engineered things. I always wanted to be a little bit stronger than I needed to be to climb the route. And I, I still approach climbing like that.

I still approach my, my goals today like that because it's not reasonable for me anyway. Maybe for like Adam mantra, it's fine, [01:05:00] but, or for people who are, you know, capable of doing so much volume, I don't know. But for me, I had to pick certain climbs in certain areas over phases of time and be like, I'm just gonna focus on this one style because I, I felt like I couldn't be a V 12, V 13 boulderer in this style and then go to Smith Rock and climb to Boulder, not to be in the same.

Like, you know, or whatever it is, like in the exact same window. I, I feel like 

Kush: used time at that style, at it's zenith. Yeah. Right. Like you could perform at like a lower level of intensity. Yeah. But to perform optimally, you have to kind of prepare yourself in that style. 

Sonnie: Yeah. And I needed a little bit of time to shift and prepare myself.

And so with that particular route, I just, I knew that these pitches were long and technical and pumpy, and I knew that they were back to back to back. And so when I went ragging, um, I would, the way that I was structured my day is I would go for half a day, [01:06:00] I would come, I'd run back to the, the camper or whatever, and then Lydia, my wife, would take half a day to go bouldering with her girlfriends or go for a long run or something like that.

So we would structure the day where I had half the day, and it was never, I never climbed in the middle of the day. I always climbed in the morning or the evening, and then my wife. So that way we felt very like balanced. and there was times like, of course, when I was up on lcap, that was most of the day, but when I was just ragging, if I was in Smith Rock, I would try to bang out four or five long pitches very quickly and then be finished by one o'clock.

You know? And so I guess what I'm trying to say is that I would, I, I would take the, the, the main objective and then I would reverse it and be like, how can I, how can I focus on these climbs in this style, in this condensed period of time that would help me get higher fitness for, for, for the actual day of the, of [01:07:00] attempts, you know?

Sure, sure. Yeah. And so, like, even today, like I, I actually remember, um, I remember reading about Frost Walla Ground again back in 1998, and he would do something like, I, I believe it was 305 13 moves a day. Wow. And so he was on, like, you know, your training board. He'd have all the different angles, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 degrees.

But he would, he wouldn't finish training unless he did about 300 movements of around five 13 level. And I was fascinated by that amount of, well, one volume, but two, like, like approach. Because you know, when you're doing World Cup competitions and the finals is a 13 d or 14 a on site back in the 1990s, like your fitness had to be through the roof.

And so I, I was like, well, how many moves am I doing a day? You know, like, [01:08:00] am I doing 300? Am I doing 400? Am I doing 100? When we go to the climbing gym and we start talking with our friends and we do three pitches, you know, and we're like, oh yeah, I'm kind of tired. I'm, I'm gonna go home like. Did you actually like do enough to be better the next week or the next month?

Or are you just doing enough to have a good time and maintain, you know, and I'm not saying it's all about results, but if there's goals and objectives you have, it's, it's, I think it's important to look at it more seriously. More analytically. Yeah. 

Kush: And even in a lifestyle sport like rock climbing and even on a big road trip, I think there's a lesson here on how one can break down like really big audacious goals into manageable jump.

Because I think myself and maybe people listening, we don't always think of. A root [01:09:00] and a goal in that kind of way where you can like, think of the total number of moves and maybe think of like how one can like, replicate that kind of intensity, that kind of volume at the gym or at a different crack.

Mm-hmm. And think about that big objective, but think about it like how you can get something out of your day at the crack. 

Sonnie: Yeah. Which would help 

Kush: one, get to that big objective. 

Sonnie: And, and I wanna be, yeah, yeah. Sorry, I just wanna be clear. Like, it's not something I do all the time. It's when it's, when I realize that there's a, a climb or an objective that's very important to me.

And, you know, I, I like, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a climber through and through lifestyle, like everything, but there are times where I ramp it up to, to, to try to do something. And then there are times when I come down the other side and then, and it's, it's this journey of these waves. And so. Sure. Like, I think helping, you know, helping to look at [01:10:00] climbing just a little bit more, like a little bit more, um, I don't know, maybe the word is just mindful, like being like, you know, am I, am I actually doing something that's going to help me achieve my goal or not?

You know, I just think sometimes that's, that's helpful in life. And I just want to say that it's never like a straight up line. It's always this, these waves, you know? Um, 

Kush: and yeah, sometimes the goal could be, Hey, I'm gonna go on this, uh, climbing trip, let's say to Bishop again. 

Sonnie: Yeah. And 

Kush: the goal is to be, to be carefree and hang with my friends.

Yeah. And just do a bit of volume and have a good time. And that's, that's a very, uh, reasonable goal to have. And then the other goal, because one can't always have totally have like really big intense goals and, and preparations, because that just needs to burn out. Sunny. So many more things we could talk to you about, but if you're coming towards the end, end.

When you think about legacy [01:11:00] and like, what do you hope your kids, or even maybe, uh, a 20-year-old climber who's reading your book, or a 50-year-old athlete who's listening to this conversation, uh, what do you want them to take away about how you lived and climbed? 

Sonnie: Hmm. Okay. Geez, that's a

good question. there's a part of me that says, you know, I don't want them to take anything away. Like, I want them to, I want them to feel their own path forward, their own life, you know? But if someone asked me, you know, how I approached my life so far and how I hope I can continue to approach it. I would say that life is, life is shorter than we think.

and I don't mean to say that, like, I don't mean to say that in a [01:12:00] negative way. I actually think it's a liberating feeling to say life is short because what it does to me is I don't wanna waste any time. That's, that's how I, I look back and I'm like, I don't think I've wasted very much time of my life on this planet because I recognize that it's happening so fast.

And I felt like I had a lot of goals that if I didn't pursue them you know, with, um, desire and, and quickness, I feel like it's very easy that they can escape us. So when I say life is short, I don't mean to say it in a, like sounding like in a, in a, any kind of depressing way. I actually, it's encouraging because, because life is short is why we should pursue things sooner than later.

You know, if, if I had to say anything, it would be [01:13:00] listen to yourself very closely and intently and follow the, the thing that makes you feel like the most fire, you know? And then follow that with, um, I intense intensity, I guess. Like, you know, because if it's the thing that fills you up the most, it's probably the thing that makes life worth living the most, which is the most fulfilling.

And so, and I would say do it quickly, because not to say that you can't do things later, later in life. But who knows what's gonna happen and who knows how life might change or become, you know? And so that would be my, my final words of advice is that life is short and do it. Do it now.

Kush: That is beautiful. And like you said, early in the conversation, not all of us, or very few of us even have the privilege of being able [01:14:00] to pursue life beyond just meeting human needs. Yeah, that's true. And then even fewer get a taste of what it means to have found something so beautiful, so addictive. So joy giving.

So I think my takeaway here is that if one does find oneself in that enviable situation 

Sonnie: mm-hmm. 

Kush: Then one owes it to oneself to give it. Just complete love and just take it as far as one can. And, and you have just done that sunny, and it's been a joy to read your beautiful book for climbers and non climbers alike.

Thank you for, thank you for sharing all of that with us. And yeah, wishing your luck with, uh, what comes next. 

Sonnie: Oh, thank you so much. That, that, that [01:15:00] means a lot to hear from you and, um, and others. I'm glad people are enjoying, enjoying the book. It's, uh, it's very, it's very, um, warming, you know, when I get feedback like that.

So I appreciate it and I, I do hope that it can inspire some, someone out there to pursue the thing that they love with love and, you know, and courage. And I, I would say my final note, uh, just on the topic before was. When people ask me what are my main goals right now, I tell them it's to stay healthy.

It's to, it's to not get injured. So my approach to climbing, like you said, you can just go to Bishop and have fun with your friends. Like, you know, I wanna stay healthy. And so my approach to climbing is like healthy body, healthy joints, first and foremost, if I can. It's, it's not always a, a certainty, but I do my best.

And, um, so yeah, that's my number one goal. And then all my other goals [01:16:00] are secondary. 'cause I think you have to be healthy in order to, to achieve anything. So, um, that would be my final, final words of advice is, uh, stay, stay as healthy as possible to pursue, to pursue the passion, you know, like 

Kush: a hundred percent.

And since. Thanks for sharing that since you, since you said that I have to ask. Yes. That's what a lot of this podcast is about. It is about being able to continue keeping those faculties that allow us to keep following a dream. So sunny, what might be one daily practice that you have brought into your routine that allows you to, to stay healthy, not just for today, but for the years to come?

Sonnie: first thing that comes to my mind is sleep. I I would prioritize sleep. You, I would prioritize a lot of things, but I think sleep is, [01:17:00] without a good, restful, sleeping routine, everything else is more difficult. And I learned this because of being a parent. I learned what happens to my body when I'm not sleeping well or, or through the night.

And when I started sleeping normal again, everything changed. And so now in my mid forties and soon to be late forties, I, I've realized how much I appreciate and, and, and benefit from a really good sleep. So, if you're, if you're going to bed at 11 and waking up at, you know, five in the morning, like, I think it works for some people for a certain amount of time, but I don't know if that's the best, most wise thing for longevity for like a long period of time.

Right. So, um, yeah, that's my advice. That's what's been helpful for me recently is better and longer quality of sleep. And not to feel bad about it. Like if I sleep [01:18:00] for eight hours. That's amazing. I don't need to feel bad and be like, oh, I'm not being productive. I need to get up at six hours of sleep, or I need to wake up at five in the morning and do my exercises.

Like, I think making sure that you feel recovered is like my number one tip, because recovery allows you to reset and start, start over again. If you're not feeling recovered, you're starting from a deficit and it just, for me, it just doesn't work. It feels harder. So that would be, that would be my one tip is, um, prioritize sleep and recovery and build everything else on top of that.

Kush: That is very important advice. It's not the sexiest advice. No. But the value of, uh, a good night's sleep is, uh, is, is very underrated. Any systems that you have set up besides just blocking out time, any things you do to make sure that, Hey, when I hit hit the sack. [01:19:00] I can actually get that long time of rest.

Sonnie: There's no, nothing systematic that I have. Or do you just like, 

Kush: uh, tire yourself out enough that when you actually Uh, I try to, 

Sonnie: I try to train hard enough that, or climb. If I'm going climbing, I try to climb hard enough. Uh, or if I'm going training, I try to train hard enough that I'm tired just be more, I'm just being more mindful of my sleeping.

Be like, oh, was, did I really go to bed at 11? Or was it, did I stay up till 1145 and did I really get seven hours or did I get five and a half hours? You know, or did I hear a noise at five in the morning and woke me up? Like it? And just being more mindful about it, I think is my only like advice. Yeah. 

Kush: Got it.

Yeah. Be mindful about sleep, some wise parting advice. Sonny, thank you so much for coming on the show today. 

Sonnie: Thank you so much for having me. I love talking to you. It was real pleasure. Thanks again.