The Space Between Breaths: Everest, Whitewater, and Aging Boldly — at 56, Erik Still Trusts the Outdoors as His Greatest Teacher

Ageless Athlete - Erik Weihenmayer
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[00:00:00] 

Kush : Eric, I usually start with this question, which is, where are you right now and what did you have for breakfast today? 

Erik: Ah, I ha I'm here in Golden Colorado, foothills of the Rockies.

we have, uh, some great climbing just west of us up in Clear Creek. I live right under North Table Mountain, which has some pretty nice rock climbing. Uh, and, uh, what did I have for breakfast? I had, a, uh, an omelet with some cheese and olives and arugula Like, when I drink juice, I drink.

I don't know if anyone cares about this really, but, uh, I fill it mostly with water, but I just put like an inch of orange juice in there just for, just because I like the taste. Sure. 

Kush : Yeah. Well, it's only 8:00 AM We are in the same time zone right now, and we already had a hearty breakfast. You must be a morning person.

Erik: Well, I'm not [00:01:00] usually, but I'm writing a children's book. So I was up this morning at like four in the morning writing my, uh, uh, children's book that I hope to come out, uh, next spring at the 25th anniversary of my, my Everest climb, which was way back in 2001. So yeah, become a morning person these days.

Kush : wow. Yeah, I, I guess, uh, I, I do hear a lot of writers like to. Produce their, their, their quantum of work. Yeah. Early morning before the day breaks and before people around them break up. Yeah. Because you're 

Erik: really, your mind's fresh. You're, it's quiet, you know, um, you know, as I said, you're alert.

And, um, the other thing is that, you know, normally I'd wake up and, you know, roll around a little bit and fall back asleep, but when you wake up with a book project, you have like 12 thoughts in your brain that you wanna get down on the keyboard. So you're like, ah, forget it. I'm [00:02:00] not gonna go back to sleep anyway.

I might as well get up and start putting those ideas onto the paper, you know? 

Kush : Well, waking up at 12 thoughts, uh, that sounds like you're, 

Erik: uh, 

Kush : pretty fired up for, uh, this project. 

Erik: Yeah, but normally I'm not so much a morning person. Alpine starts are always painful for me.

Kush : I, I can't see a book in my. Near future because yes, I will have a hard time getting up that early if that is one of the, uh, requirements of, uh, becoming a good, uh, book writer 

Erik: for sure. I mean, yeah, you definitely need to have the discipline to like escape for a little while and just have total quiet and reflection and, uh, yeah.

With all the people that you're interviewing on this podcast, I think you'll have a terrific book at some point.

Kush : Well, right now, I'm just having a great time, uh, and loving this [00:03:00] opportunity and very grateful for being able to, uh, get some of these heroes in front of me and I suppose have the, uh, liberty to ask you whatever the hell I want for a little while. Eric, you do so many things. Yeah. And, uh. You're back writing and I, yeah.

Can't, can't wait to hear more about this book that you're writing for, for kids, but how do you describe yourself to others who don't know who you are? 

Erik: Oh, I don't know how to describe myself. I never do. People say, what's your career? And I'm like, well, a little bit of a writer, little bit of a filmmaker, um, speaker, uh, athlete adventurer, I guess.

you know, like some people say, Hey, I'm a professional climber. And it's like, well, yeah, I mean, kind of right. Like, you know, sometimes you can scrounge up some money for a film [00:04:00] project or for a, an expedition and maybe that leads you into the professional climbing world, but it's not like being a. NFL football player where people are throwing a million dollars at you.

So in a way, being a, you know, trying to make a life in the mountains, you're, you have to be an entrepreneur, you have to kind of run a business. And so, yeah, I have a, just a tiny team, me and my, uh, manager, Skyler Williams and, I guess the bread and butter of our, my, my work and career is, um, you know, speaking and, and, and writing.

Kush : And you've had this multiple lifetimes worth of adventures which fuel so much of the work you do. 

Robot: Yeah. 

Kush : And this is not a climbing specific podcast, however, we are connected by the world of climbing. Of course. And I thought I would start us with something fresh in [00:05:00] your life. You just came back from the Bugaboos 

Robot: Yeah.

Kush : With our mutual friend Nick Martinez. 

Erik: Yeah. 

Kush : Tell us what that trip was all about, Eric. 

Erik: Oh man. It was the most amazing trip. And I just want to say, I know you interviewed Nick Martinez Gomez and he's an amazing human being. Just a beautiful soul and an incredible climber. Just steady and tough as nails. and, and, uh, you know, it's such a good partner, you know, and instilling confidence in me and his teammates and, you know, when anything needs to be done or fixed, he just goes right to it, you know?

He's the best kind of climbing partner, and I've been lucky to be hanging out with him the last few years. Um, I, uh, we met in Yosemite through a mutual friend of mine, Felipe Tapia, Norton Fitch, who's, uh, a really cool climber and photographer out there in, in Cortez, Colorado. Anyway, but, uh, yeah, I went to the Bugaboos.[00:06:00] 

Like five years ago with another friend and it rained and rained and rained and we never even got there. We, uh, we got in a helicopter, we were gonna fly to, you know, near base camp and we came over the coal and there was a ground blizzard. The helicopter wouldn't even land. So that was the end of that trip.

And then last year we went back and it rained and rained and rained, and the ranger sent us a photo of three feet of snow on top of the face and they said, don't even bother coming up here. So anyway, so this is my third time never touching bugaboo rock. we waited for a week kind of near, um, the, the, the bugaboos.

And then, uh, we took the lazy way in a helicopter into base camp and, immediately it started raining again all night long up at Base Camp. At, at, uh, what's called East Creek. And so we just thought, well, it's kind of windy. Maybe the wind will dry the rock. So we scrambled up this really tricky [00:07:00] granite wet ramps and third, fourth class climbing and got to the base.

It was crazy windy. I just thought maybe this is not a good idea. Like it's only gonna get windier, right. Anyway. But Nick was like, come on, this is our one shot. I know it's not a great window, but let's just try, you know, and thank God he said that because yeah, the wind kind of like, didn't really get a lot better, but it, it, it warmed up in the day and there's just enough a like little bit of diffused sun, like warming you up.

We were putting our big belay jackets on, on every, you know, belay ledge. Uh, anyway, we got 10 pitches up and vied. Nice night. And, uh, woke up. The next morning we climbed to the summit. Uh, we reached the summit about six at night. It was snowing and sleeting, and we repelled all the way down, 10 pitches. 10 rope links down to the glacier where there's a giant berks run for those who don't know, it's like a, a casse that separates the glacier from the rock.

So you have to kind of [00:08:00] swing out. And Nick was down below on the glacier giving me advice to kind of like punch into the snow face and kind of like, tiptoe your way around this casse and get onto the glacier proper. And then we came down, and by this time we're going down this horrible boulder field at midnight.

And Nick and Lenore, our third partner, Lenore Spark, she's a, she's is a pro climber. She's up like a five 13 amazing climber. Such a good human being as well. And we got lost. We didn't know where we were going. And I said, Hey, we should probably like bivy another night. So we sliver it into a cave and had a very uncomfortable night.

We didn't, you know, candy bar for a, uh, for dinner. And the next morning we. Had a little bit of fuel. So we boiled gummy bear, you know, the like cliff shots. Sure. And, and the water made a little bit of like gummy tea. And uh, as it turns out, we were smart to stop [00:09:00] because if we kept going down that drainage, there's like a thousand foot ice face just below us.

So smart. We did that. We had to hike back up to the coal and find our way and five hours later we were back at base camp, but it was cold and windy and oh man, it's just like one of those hard tests, you know, that type two fun that you're like, 

yeah, 

Erik: I need a break now I need to like go sit in the sunshine for like a month, you know?

Quite, yeah. That was our adventure. So it's fun to get these things done at 56. 

Kush : Yeah. Quite the adventure. Eric, and Wait a second. So. The, the center route was different than the approach, like you did repel down, but you, yeah. You climb 

Erik: over the top and you repel down the backside of the mountain down the north face of the mountain.

So yeah, you don't come back. Uh, there's probably like too much traversing and stuff like that on the route itself. So yeah. They found a more direct repel line. Yeah. And that route's called Becky Sheard. It was put up by [00:10:00] Fred, Becky and, uh, Yvonne Sheard, like in the sixties. Those guys are amazing bad asses.

And 

Kush : yeah. 

Erik: Uh, and, and, uh, now blind guys climbed their route. Yeah. Well, yeah, I've climbed some of it. I climbed some other, uh, I led like a, a little gully and, uh, and, and Keen new New York, um, called, uh, Cho's Gully. So yeah, I'm following an Yvonne, Yvonne Cho's footsteps. Sure. I met him one time at a outdoor retailer show.

Um, yeah. Sure. 

Kush : Well, congrats. 

Erik: Yeah. Yeah, it was fun. I guess fun is, I don't know, not completely accurate, but yeah, it was, it was full value adventure. 

Kush : Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, it sound like you squeezed every drop of adventure out of that, uh, decline. Yeah. The, the area. I haven't been to the bugaboos myself, but I have heard about that route [00:11:00] maybe one day.

Erik: Yeah. I will make my joke coming home from Canada was, you know, that drink Canada Dry? I go, there's nothing dry about Canada. I don't know how that drink out of Canada. 'cause it rains constantly. It rained every day we were there. Oh my goodness. For like two weeks. Yeah. 

Kush : And, and you went, I'm guessing this is like supposed to be the, the correct season, right?

Like this is the middle, it's supposed to be the 

Erik: correct season. Yes. Last year there were forest fires. Uh, this year there were literally floods in Calgary. That's, that's 

Kush : ridiculous. You mentioned, yeah. Tell us how the climbing went for you. I mean, you've been climbing for decades now, and you've Yeah.

Climbed in all kinds of environments. You've climbed rock faces, you've climbed, big, big mountains, the tallest mountain, and you've climbed ice. [00:12:00] Mm-hmm. How did the experience of all of those Yeah, all of those prior things prepare you for, uh, climbing on this one? 

Erik: Yeah. Well, I kind of know how to move pretty efficiently and keep moving.

Hans, uh, Florian actually, 'cause I, you know, as I kind of get to my mid fifties sometimes I feel like a little bit low energy every now and then, and like you get a little doldrum of energy. Like, sometimes even like after you eat a sandwich, you're just like, oh, I just don't feel like moving for a minute.

Yeah, I don't think I ever experienced that before 10 years ago. But Hans Florine said, Hey, go to this phy, not an advertisement, but it is a good product. It's called, uh, crush and, uh, it's these caffeine pills and you pop a couple of those man and you are ready to go. So yeah, I popped a few of those on the Becky Chenard and, and that was helpful.

Um, but I had trained a ton over the last few months. I was climbing and hiking and, and doing everything I could to get ready. [00:13:00] And the way I usually climb is I, I climb, um, the leader, uh, brings up two thin ropes and, And, and so there are three of us climbing. Uh, and so like, say Lenore was leading, Nick would be climbing like 10 feet above me on the other rope.

And, and he would be, uh, telling me like, Hey, thank God. Hold out to the right here. Or he might even kick like a hold with his foot or just say, Hey, this is a weird traverse, and he might like talk a little bit as he's traversing, just to kind of gimme a little bit of a play by play. So that, that enables me to move a lot faster on the route and, uh, and be more efficient.

And the cool part about the Becky Sheard is that it's crack climbing for the most part. And if you think about it, you know, like if I'm on a sea of. Limestone and I'm looking for like a little tiny two finger pocket. You know, that's a lot harder for me, like a lot more effort as I scan my hand across the rock trying to find it.

But cracks are really great, you know, you just slide your hand up, [00:14:00] you find the place where it feels good and you move upward. And so I can move pretty fast on in crack climbing. 

Kush : you mentioned you even led some of these? Yeah, I can, I can see the, yeah, for sure. It makes sense, you know, crack climbing.

Yeah. You know, the, the, the mountain kind of splits and reveals like this weakness that you can kind of trace up. Yeah. And, Party of three sounds like that's a good combination because, because of, yeah. but you even led some of these. Yeah. How does, how does that happen, Eric? 

Erik: I lead, usually I like to climb, uh, something first.

you know, just to kind of memorize like, okay, where am I gonna be placing this piece of gear and where, where's the crux that I need to, like, understand like this is gonna be the tricky part that I need to kind of move through and figure out the, the movements and be more fluid. So yeah, I like to climb it first.

but, uh, [00:15:00] every now and then I will climb something for the first time. I'll lead something for the first time having never climbed it before. And, uh, they, they caught, um, when you, when you climbed, uh, something that you haven't, when you lead something that you haven't climbed before, climbers caught on sighting.

So for me, they caught nons sighting is the joke that I was trying to get out for you. Timmy O'Neill would've done a way better job with that joke, but 

Kush : no, I mean, no, that's a good one. it's funny, uh, I, I, I suppose the older I get my, sometimes my attraction for like, type two fun. 

Robot: Yeah.

It 

Kush : tends to like, uh, I'm 47 now and it tends to like, maybe not be as attractive, you know, the idea of like, uh, these, uh, big climbs in the outdoors and the, the long approaches and, uh, you know, root finding and getting lost. And I haven't been benighted yet, [00:16:00] but I think that's probably gonna happen. So you have been at it for decades now.

I mean, like, what's fueling you now? Like what, what keeps calling you back? 

Erik: No, I think you're exactly right. Like I was on co epoxy a few years ago. We had a really, really cool project and a compelling reason to be there. My friend. Uh. Um, Zuko Carrasco, he is a, uh, climber in, in, in Ecuador. He, uh, fell in this accident and he broke his back.

He's a paraplegic and he wanted to climb co epoxy, you know, he climbed it a hundred times as an able-bodied human, but he wanted to climb it. Now as a, he's that technically a quadriplegic. He's a partial quad. we built a team around him and, uh, he had this cool sled with a ski, with skis on it, and he and somebody would run up the face and with a rope and they'd take a picket, a metal picket, and they'd pound it into the snow, is a anchor.

And then he had a, like, literally a boat winch [00:17:00] anchored onto his sled and he would crank his way up the rope pitch by pitch. And, uh, we did that for three days with like 15 of us, like pushing and spotting and making sure he didn't flip over backwards. But on that trip itself, I remember, Sorry to be graphic, but like I was pooping in the snow at like four in the morning and the wind was hammering me and my hands were like numb.

And I just thought, what, why do I do this? What am what is going on here? And so, yeah, no, I think you do lose a little bit of that, um, kind of that energy, you know, of youth that just might makes you want to fire on everything, you know, because I've accomplished so much. So, you know, you don't wanna just keep doing the same thing over and over.

So what attracts me these days is moving into a new, just like different areas. I really love technical ice climbs and technical rock climbs. And you know, you're right, I don't like humping up a huge mountain so much [00:18:00] anymore. I'd much rather find a really interesting technical route, and have a small team and make it into a really cool adventure.

So yeah, you just gotta keep finding new things that are exciting. 

Kush : and, and maybe, maybe, the company of yeah. Of great friends. 

that's for sure 

Kush : a day in the mountains with good company, I think. Yeah. Even if there's some suffering involved. Uh, beats, beats a day drinking coffee.

Yeah. 

Kush : Or maybe a coffee. Coffee. And the lounging and like, I suppose the sun, like you said earlier, is best enjoyed after one has put the time into that, uh, that suffer fest. And Eric, I was, reading about you and I feel like your beginnings in the outdoors are so different. With the life you have created and correct me, but I believe [00:19:00] that you went and did the trail to Machu Picchu 

Robot: Yeah.

Kush : As a youngster. And you didn't particularly enjoy your time hiking No. And being outside. So from that beginning to where you are today Yeah. How did you 

Robot: mm-hmm. 

Kush : Make this thing happen? And I suppose, I suppose it could be a, it could be so much time that you've spent I guess what I'm coming to, was there a turning point, Eric, where it went from becoming this, this stadium, this thing that you hated to something that you've immersed yourself in?

Erik: Tedium is a good word for it. Yeah, because hiking blind in the beginning was so hard, right? Because I didn't have the tools, right? Like [00:20:00] I, I, I had learned how to use a long white cane, like blind people use as they tap down the street or the hallway or whatever. But I, I didn't know how to hike rocky trails, you know, with drop offs and they're narrow and there's all kinds of obstacles and boulders like jutting out into the trail and tree branches.

And so I would try to hike up these trails with a cane, a flimsy little blind cane, and my dad or my brothers would literally like grab my, like the, the, the top of my shorts as I walked in front of 'em and they would try to steer me like back and forth across the trail. And, uh, my dad, it was funny 'cause he always had his video camera and a few times I'd step off the trail and he'd be, we'd both like tumble off the side of the trail and we're both sliding down the.

Side of the trail on our butts, and he is got his camera held up in the air just so he doesn't break it. Uh oh boy. But yeah, so I didn't like hiking at all. I really wanted to just be with my two brothers and my dad [00:21:00] on these adventures. And my dad, you know, just had this adventurous bent and he wanted to take us.

We were really lucky. I'd studied the, uh, the Incan Empire like in high school. And, uh, my dad took us on the Inca Trail to Machu Picchu. And one, uh, year we, we hiked, um, in Pakistan near the Bolt, Torah glacier. Uh, and then, uh, we went to ER and Jaya or West Papua New Guinea and trekked in the jungles there and on and on.

It was really great summer adventures and we were really, really privileged to, you know, have those international travels. Um, and. So really for me, I loved rock climbing from the beginning because if you can imagine it for a blind person, my hands and feet engaged on the rock is totally different than trying to walk down a trail where I'm just using my feet.

uh, but eventually I discovered trekking poles. Lucky, lucky USA, this wonderful, [00:22:00] uh, trekking pole and ski pole company. They built these poles for me that are really long, they go up to like my forehead. And so that means, uh, I can extend them really long when I'm going downhill. And I have two of them in my.

And I can probe down below and lean on them and lean forward so that I can take a step downhill. And when I'm going uphill, I can shorten them so that I can feel my way up the hill. And they're really sturdy, as I said. you know, I can lean and have kind of four legs instead of two legs. And, and then, uh, I, we fi finally figured out an idea where, you know, it's hard to follow footsteps, especially like on rock and dirt.

So my friends will take a bare be, and they'll clip it to their ski pole, or just even to their finger, and they'll jingle it in front of me and talk a little bit. And that made trekking and walking so much easier in the mountains. can't say I still love it, like hiking for me is the way to get to the climb.[00:23:00] 

Kush : Well, I've spoken like a, like a true climber, right? Yeah. Like, uh, the, the hiking is the. Is the annoying part until you get Yeah, exactly. It's the TD wall. 

Erik: But, but now I, I've learned to focus and I've learned that technique and it's really second nature as I'm scanning my poles in front of me and, figuring out where I'm gonna, you know, step and so forth.

And it's a lot more effort than a sighted person, but hey, it gets the job done. 

Kush : it's funny, I was climbing recently with this friend of mine, Lee, and we were watching our, uh, my dog go bounding up and down the, the trail at Ken Sleep. And this, this, the trails are pretty good, but there was this like one scree section and, and Lee slipped, and Lee comes up and says, you know, a little bit humbled.

And he said, well, uh, apparently he said Evolution did a disservice to humans by forcing us to, to stand up. So now we can't use our [00:24:00] hands to feel around. The, uh, the terrain, the way, uh, other four limped creatures do. So, yes, I think true. I think all of us would be better. Yeah. I wish I 

Erik: could extend my arms so I could, uh, feel my way.

Kush : Yeah, no, Eric, I can only say what 

Erik: I trek. They say I look like a giant praying mantis, just like, you know, I'm like leaning over and probing and moving and like, kind of this weird, awkward looking way. But, uh, it works. 

Kush : I bet, I bet. Everybody's asking or everybody has been curious, around your entire climbing career on how do you climb, but yeah, I, I suppose I'm almost more curious about how do you, and I think you just answered my question, but anyway, I'm not curious.

I'm impressed by how do you manage and complete some of these approaches. Approaches to, let's say sport climbing cracks can usually be [00:25:00] a bit more simple. But you have, you just went to the bugaboos, you have gone and hiked all over the Himalaya and, and Patagonia, and I think the approaches are sometimes the most challenging, even for Able-bodied, fully sighted people. And you are accomplishing that without sight. I mean, yeah, that just Eric, that just boggles my mind. 

Erik: No, I agree a hundred percent. I mean, like, I went to, uh, a couple years ago, uh, to Patagonia and got really lucky with the weather. We got two beautiful windows and I climbed, uh, tourist at Pinene Norte, and that was a beautiful tower.

But yeah, it was three days getting there, trekking through Boulder fields and Tice fields and. Um, just picking my way, you know, over rivers and creeks and snow faces and up big ramparts of rock, like, kind of like climbing the flat iron, and traversing on like [00:26:00] ledges, like where you wouldn't, you know, you die if you fell off to the left or something, you know, just, you know, that stuff is getting to high camp was just a, uh, you know, a celebration for me.

Yeah. No, I agree. The hiking to me is, I, I don't know. It's harder and more dangerous in some ways. 

Kush : A hundred percent. And not to mention you're usually not roped in. 

Erik: Yeah, you're not roped in. Exactly. Yeah. And then all the, uh, like one day we were walking through a forest of trees and just weaving and bobbing through these skinny trees and oh boy, you know, as a blind guy you're like, you know, it's nearly impossible, not just be bouncing off of trees.

So yeah, that just gets exhausting. 

Kush : Yes. Yes. And exhausting and maybe, um, I don't know, painful. Like if you are, if you're getting clobbered by the, uh, terrain around you at some point mm-hmm. At some point, yeah. A lot of times I'll 

Erik: wear my helmet in the trees. Oh boy. Yeah. Just 'cause I'm [00:27:00] like, I'd rather have a little buffer zone when I bang into that tree limb.

Kush : Yeah. Despite all of this, like, you seem to have this positivity irradiated, and I've heard you call the outdoors this great create lab for learning. Yeah. And, yeah. Can you, can you unpack that for us? Like, what do you mean by that? And what have you been learning all these years? 

Erik: Hmm. Well, one, um.

As a blind person, when I was going blind, when I was like 14 years old, I really hated the idea of de depending on anyone, you know? 'cause I thought like everyone's looking down on me and judging me and like feeling sorry for me. You know? Like I was this poor little creature that, you know, needed help.

And, you know, nobody really knew how to deal with me. And I realized, one, that I was bringing that partly on myself because I was [00:28:00] uncomfortable around blindness. And if I could make it positive and make it comfortable and make it a part of me, uh, find a place for it, I guess then people would reflect me back like a mirror.

And that was the case for sure. Um, and I also realized that dependence, full dependence on people is okay, that's maybe not so good, but interdependence is a beautiful thing, right? So like I realized that it was my own ego holding me back, like sometimes as a kid. I wouldn't go do the fun thing because I was scared to say to a friend, Hey, do you mind if I hold your elbow, you know, while we're walking through the city and, uh, having a fun adventure together.

You know, I, so I'd stay home rather than asking for help. And I realized like I was hurting myself and it was my own ego that was holding me back. And so I, I realized that interdependence is beautiful because that enables me to push my own independence as much as humanly possible. You know, like the things I can learn to do, learn to do 'em well.

[00:29:00] But then the, you know, when you hit your limits, rely on other people around you and, and you can go to places that you would've never gone to in any other way. And that was a great lesson for me. And I, I learned that in the mountains, you know, like back, way back on Everest in 2001, I had this amazing team.

and they all took a lot, you know, time outta their lives for three months to be a part of my journey and to make history together. And, uh, you know, we put our lives in each other's hands and, you know, and, and I put my life in their hand, but they put their life back in my hand. You know, it's this beautiful thing about trust that you learn in the mountains, how you can trust people and you walk away as you know, you know, like change.

Like these people are no longer friends. They're brothers and sisters, right? For life. Uh, and, and I discovered that when we went back to the Himalayas, uh, 10 years after. Well, I've been to him, the Himalayas, a bunch between that. But we went back 10 or so years later with a team of injured veterans, about 10 severely [00:30:00] uh, injured veterans.

we reached the summit of Lo Boucher together, which is a 20,000 foot peak. and again, this soldiers, the veterans said, we were in war. And in war you, it's really important. You watch each other's back, you're there for each other, you're supporting each other constantly, right? You cannot let each other down.

And they said, and the climbing, you know, as a civilian team is very similar. You know, no bullets are flying at you, so it's much easier, of course, but it's a similar feel. uh, in the civilian world, they said, it's just hard to create those deep relationships and sense of trust and in the mountains it's so much easier.

So I think that's a, a, a big piece of the equation. why it's such a good laboratory? Obviously though there's just natural beauty too, whether you can see it or not. You know, like I can feel the, the snow and ice under my ice ax and I can feel my body moving up the face and I can like [00:31:00] problem solve my way up a cool, tricky rock section and I can feel the sun and the wind on my face.

Uh, blind people can do something called echolocation, which is like, you hear sound vibrations bouncing off of objects, so you're getting information through your ears too. So all of that combined Yeah. Makes climbing. and the outdoors is just an amazing laboratory for who we want to be in our potential, I think.

And that's why, my No Barriers Organization, which is a nonprofit organization based here in Colorado, we work with hundreds of people a year with disabilities, and we bring them into the outdoors, whether it's up to our camp, which is west of Fort Collins, or whether we do a back country experience together.

and we talk about what this No Barriers life looks like. And there's something about like the, the balance between pushing yourself in this beautiful, rugged setting, uh, and learning to develop systems to [00:32:00] kind of s. Survive and flourish in that environment, and something about the emotional thing that you go through in those settings.

The combination of that really is quite like uplifting for people. Uh, it, it enables them to kind of reflect and think about, how they become the best version of themselves. 

Kush : Eric. I love that. And a few things to that. For me, one thing that I can appreciate immediately is that in the West, like I, I grew up in India, Culturally and societally like, uh, uh, a more interdependent group of humans, 

right, for sure. 

Kush : And yeah, just the culture in America just feels different, right? Because I think the expectation is. One kind of has to go out and solve, let's say, life for oneself with minimal reliance on others. And I [00:33:00] know I'm generalizing, uh, strongly here and I think this is a lesson right there, which is just forcing oneself to lean on other people, I think teaches us that we are doing this together.

And I think it also opens doors for others to lean back into us. And I know it's cheesy, but together I think we are stronger. We are more capable. Yeah. And I'm sensing that once you unlock that, it probably helped you maybe realize skills even outside of the outdoors. 

Erik: I agree a hundred percent. In fact, I'll get like even judgy for a second and say, you know, this western idea of like rugged individualism, we, we pull ourselves up by our bootstraps.

I'm just gonna be blunt and say it's abs. Well, it's a double-edged sword. Or even more you could say it's bullshit, [00:34:00] you know, it's just nobody really is a rugged, you know, individual, right? We're all relying on each other, whether we know it or recognize it or not. And so, being blind and going blind, definitely like, reinforced that.

Like, it, it, it made that so real to me that like, I wasn't going to be able to climb Everest alone or kayak the Grand Canyon alone. So, you know, there's no question, right? Like, and so I, I'd have to rely on other people. I have to be able to build good teams around me. and I love being a part of those teams, you know, like.

Because as a blind person, you know, you're not gonna be the fastest person or the strongest person, uh, the person with the best eyesight. But what I can do is I can still lead, right? Like in small ways, right? Like different kinds of ways of looking at leadership, right? Like I can, I could cook a meal on a stove or I could, uh, set up a tent for a friend if they're tired or just even roll out their sleeping pad and pull their sleeping bag [00:35:00] out.

Or, you know, somebody's sick. Hand 'em a bar, hand 'em one of my bars, or hand 'em a little water and say, Hey man, you know, drink this. You'll feel better. There's so many ways to contribute to that team process, uh, so that, you know, like I've never felt, you know, as a blind guy, like a, I'm just getting dragged to the top and spiked on top like a football.

I've always felt like I'm actually contributing in ways to, to the team moving forward. and, and I love also that idea of kind of like developing into a team, right? Because teams don't always, they, well, they don't just happen. Like they don't just magically happen, right? Like you have to kind of work to become a team.

And like a perfect example is on AM alum. I went there in 2000 for the first time as a practice climb. That's a peak near Everest and in some ways deeper and harder than Everest. We ran out of food and fuel and, you know, we had terrible weather and I was stuck on a [00:36:00] ledge at like 20,000 feet for eight days, and we finally had to get off the mountain.

It was like a bad storm. And my friend, who I'd spent those eight days with in the tent, he tripped it. He, he, a rock gave way under his feet and he fell 150 feet down the rock face, uh, the miracle he lived and, went into pulmonary edema. And we all had to rally around him and get him down to base camp and put him in a gam off bag and keep pumping air into the bag for the next three days until we were able to get a helicopter in to save his life.

So that trip went south, but in a weird way, in an ironic way, like that was like the most amazing laboratory for figuring out how we could help each other and support each other and trust each other. And I swear it was like the mountain blocked us, but like crossing through that barrier made us a team.

I think I attribute that experience to summiting ev uh, Mount Everest the next year, cause we had become a great team and like [00:37:00] we knew each other. We weren't like a group of strangers just going and saying, okay, now we're together. Let's, let's go climb. I don't know. I think that's a recipe for disaster 

Kush : yeah.

Great story. And one gets pushed to the extremes, and I think it like, uh, exposes this, I don't know, this, uh, layer within us that connects with others. Like, I think, yeah, I, I, I love this about, you know, big adventures in the outdoors. Like, it kind of grinds you to the core. Like yeah, it, you know, you kind of don't have any, uh, yeah, superficial, like, I don't know, like, you know, like pooping in the snow, right?

Like, like you don't have any like. Superficial civility like you connect because you're like, you know, we are humans and we are here together. And then you kind of take that to the next thing. And I think people appreciate that. Like one, one is able to open up. And, you know, Eric, I'm, another thing that I'm sensing is that [00:38:00] while you are joining these teams and being part of these teams allowed you to accomplish these, these like huge, huge things.

And you were learning a lot, but I'm, I'm guessing that having a blind person on their team was also teaching your, your teammates maybe skills that they had not expected. 

Erik: Yeah, and uh, a couple responses to that. You know, like I had a friend in my early climbing days who had attention deficit disorder and he said he had trouble focusing, uh, especially in class, you know, he said it was.

He, he had trouble understanding what to focus on, you know, like it was like a bunch of radio stations all playing in his brain at one time. And he turned to the mountains, for that reason and was able to get more focus, you know. But he would say to me that, like, hiking with me when he wanted to describe things around him to me, that it, it kind of awakened his own [00:39:00] perceptions and his own focus and kind of made the experience richer because he was kind of trying to explain things to me and articulate them in ways that he wouldn't be thinking about without me there.

Uh, and so I, that that was cool, you know, like it was a gift to him maybe. you know, I have friends that, like on Everest, they know, they knew me. We'd hiked together. They knew how to, they knew where I needed help and where I didn't, and they knew how to communicate and they knew, like, you know, they couldn't talk the whole time because they're, you know, ex exerted and short of breath.

And so just like, what is the right amount of communication and even like. Tactile clues, you know, like for instance, they put their hand on the fixed line that they wanted me to clip into. So I'd just reach up and I'd feel their hand and I would know, okay, that's the fixed line I need to clip into. They don't have to say anything.

or like a funny story, when I was coming over the, into the South Coal, my friend Jeff Evans knew that like, I always throw up at [00:40:00] altitude, that's my thing. And I just kneeled over and was hurling in the snow and Jeff knew, okay, that doesn't mean he is done. That means Eric's getting started. That's like, that's like Rocky Balboa in the 10th round.

So he started laughing. He is like, yay, super blind. He is puking in the snow, means we're gonna summit now. so yeah, I think it is. And, and here's the last thing I'd say to that, and I've thought a lot about this on that climb of Everest, you know, people said. That we were gonna have a disaster up there, that I had no business being on the mountain that I was, you know, I was gonna draw everyone on in the mountain onto into a rescue, and I had to subject myself to horrendous risk and you know, just on and on and, sure.

But my team really believed in me and we trained together and we became like a real team. You know, we got sponsorship from the National Federation of the Blind, which is about 50, [00:41:00] 70,000 blind people, all in this wonderful coalition of people advocating for really important issues around blindness.

And they, they financed our Amad de Blanc climb and our Everest climb. we were able to become a team in that way. And instead of having that disaster that those, you know, critics said instead we had 19 outta 21 of us on our team reach the summit, which. I don't know if it's a record anymore, but it was a record for a long time.

It was the most people from one team to get to the summit of Everest in a single day. And I, and, and my friend Michael Brown, who was there on my team, he attributed, he said, you know, the reason why, we all got to the summit with you was because we wanted to be there. We all invested so much in you and in this project that we wanted to be there on the summit to celebrate.

And so he kind of said like, the irony is like more of us reached the top because of you. And I was like, that was just, it makes me cry when I think about it. I, 

Kush : [00:42:00] wow. yeah. No, that's, that's incredible. That yeah. That, that gives me goosebumps. 

Robot: Yeah. 

Kush : And I. Eric, you talked about your childhood for a second and I, yeah, I had this one.

You had this, this journey into blindness, right? Because, because you kept losing vision over time, which to me sounds like a very challenging experience, and I'm guessing that, that would impact every single aspect of your life, your, your routines, your rituals, your relationships.

Robot: Yeah. 

Kush : And they came this, let's say, this broad turning point where you started exploring the outdoors, starting from that Inca Trail trek to, all the things you've gone on to do. And I'm just wondering, like, as you were finding this new focus, did you find, let's [00:43:00] say, some spillover effects on like.

How that was also allowing you to find your place in the world because you, you were not, you know, you were not climbing outdoor. I, I don't know, maybe you were, but you were not on Martin faces, seven days a week. Uh, no, not at all. Every day, like, so yeah. Love to hear. I mean, 

Erik: I climb like once or twice a year.

'cause I didn't know, I mean, there were no rock gyms or anything. Yeah. I grew up in Connecticut. Right. But I think you're at a thousand percent right. because I guess one, you know, when I went blind, uh, I've told this story before, but it's like, I, I mean, it's like the most powerful memory I have is like sitting in the cafeteria as a blind person at my own table because I was a little bit self-conscious to be around other people or something for a while.

So, You know, kids freshman year in high school aren't always like the kindest, right? So I'd be sitting there at this table just thinking [00:44:00] about my life. Like what do I want to be? Not like do I want to climb Everest, but who do I want to be? And I wanted to be like a, you know, I didn't want to be ruled by fear.

I, I wanted to break out of that prison that I partly put myself in. You know, I, I wanted to be part of big things and big great teams and God, you know, I just didn't wanna live on the sidelines. and that was a great fear, you know? And, and so I found, uh, that I'd heard that blind people wrestled.

so I remember that day tapping down the hallway towards that stinky wrestling room, and I joined the wrestling team. And, uh, it was actually really cool because the state champion on our team is this guy Paul. He was a tiny little guy who was a hundred pounds. we, he, he'd line up all the freshmen and then, uh, you know, like five of us.

He would pick us out of the line and pin us, like in quick succession. It was to kind of humiliate all the freshmen and show 'em their place, I guess. And he dragged me [00:45:00] out of the line and slammed me right into the mats, flying all over the place. I don't even know what happened. And he pinned me and I just thought, I love this team.

Like he didn't baby me or anything, he just treated me like everyone else. He slammed me into the mat just like every other freshman. And that team became my family. Like I loved it. And I was like, I love being a part of something where blindness wasn't the center of the story like this team was that I was part of.

It was bigger than me. And, and I, so that was my first experience, just loving teams. Uh, and then when I got my first opportunity to go climbing with this group of blind people, part of this recreational program out of the Carroll Center for the Blind, we climbed in New Hampshire for the first time. I realized pretty quickly that I, I wasn't gonna be able to see, you know, use my eyes as rock to rock climb and find holds.

I was gonna have to use my hands and my feet as my eyes. And I would have, I eventually [00:46:00] build this technique where I could like, scam my hands and feet across the face and kind of like, lock off and find that hold and then lock off and do another high step and another reach. Uh, it is a very systematic sense of exploring and finding my oath, the rock face.

And when I got to the top, you know, it was this like, pretty wild thought that like, you know, like I wanted to be the same as everyone. Like, I was bumming out, like, oh, I'm the only blind kid and I don't wanna be blind. I want to be just like, I wanna blend in. And I realized in a cool way, like, I wasn't gonna climb like a sighted person.

I was gonna climb and find my own way. And I wasn't gonna read like a sighted person. I was gonna read braille with my fingers and I wasn't gonna like, uh, you know. Walk down the hallway with my eyes. I had to use a cane. And I, and my whole life would be like, you know, creating techniques and systems and innovations to be able to do things.

And I thought like maybe the fun part of life is discovering [00:47:00] these new ways of doing things. and all of those ways lead you to the summit. Like they lead you to the same place, but we all get there differently. So yeah, that's how it definitely affected my mindset. I came back to school after climbing the first time, and I went, I'm okay being different.

Like, this is my path. And that's, that's cool. And I'm good with it.

Kush : Eric. I feel like there's so much learning in what you just shared with us, because. Sometimes the, the, the most direct path between two points is not a straight line. Exactly. Sometimes go, go, go around the, yeah. Find, find a different way. And you know, one can be strategic and there is nothing wrong in being able to employ different techniques.

Apparatus, uh, different novel thinking. And you did that and it's interesting, like how you found your own [00:48:00] way, which was different than other people's way, but then it helped you come together with other people. Like it helped you do maybe the same or similar things with other people because you found your own way.

And Yes. one question comes to mind, you have been. A public figure for a while now, and you go and speak with diverse audiences and you have this sort of, this big reach. And I'm just curious if, if you've heard about maybe, maybe one story, I'm sure there are many stories, but maybe one story on how, uh, you may have, let's say, inspired or, yeah, inspired like creativity in somebody else on doing just that, which is, which is finding their own path by being strategic, by looking at different ways to accomplish things, which were out of [00:49:00] convention.

Erik: Yeah. I, I think so. I mean, I definitely preach to everyone when I talk to people with challenges, with hurdles, with disabilities. Like, you gotta find the tools and the systems that work for you. Um. You have to be kind of an engineer of your own destiny, you know, because there's a very blurry line between what we can do and what we can't do.

And you know, the, the fun part is we just mentioned is sort of figuring out the way to do it. and so, yeah, no, that's a big tenant within our No Barriers organization. When we work with people, you know, like you should see our community when we hike a mountain, we'll have blind people using trekking poles and bare bes.

We'll have, um, people in who are paraplegic or even quadriplegics who using ha special hand cycles where they're cranking their way up the mountain with their arms. We'll, we'll have some people who have very limited use of their body and these action track chairs, it's like all you need to do is push a joystick and these [00:50:00] big tank tracks just.

Crank their way up the mountain. That's a really cool device. and we even had a guy, uh, Kyle Maynard, who's like a famous guy in his own right. Um, he was born without arms and legs and he joined us one year and we taped his, uh, stumps up with, um, uh, bath towels and packing tape and shopping bags, and he crabbed his way up the mountain.

And so, yeah, it's, that's a really powerful scene watching all these people with every disability under the sun, like be moving up the mountain in their own way. And, uh, to me that's like a really powerful idea of what diversity and inclusion should look like, right? Like, it's not that tricky. It's just like, how do you support people, uh, so that they can be the best they can be and they can reach the, you know, as high as they can go.

and, and it is just like, you don't have to be an expert. You, right? You're just trying to [00:51:00] figure it out together, how people can live full lives and how you can support people in doing that. So yeah, that's, that's just a big part of, of what we do. At No Barriers. 

Kush : No barriers sound like a, like an incredible organization.

If, yeah. People listening, if they wanna hear more about the work you're doing and become part of it in some way, support, where can they do that? 

Erik: How can they, oh, well this podcast comes out before September 6th. People can join us at Winter Park. We have that event where we all hike the mountain together.

It's in Winter Park, September 6th, it's called What's Your Everest? you can learn about it@nobarriersusa.org. You can learn about how to register and everything, and you can get involved in our, in our events, in our programs. 

Kush : Super. Thanks for sharing that. And we will put links, I'm not sure how many listeners will be around Winter Park or can make it there, but, uh, yeah.

Erik: Good to throw it out there. 

Kush : Yeah, we'll throw it [00:52:00] out there. Eric, a couple of years ago, you know, I picked up on one of your books No Barriers. 

Mm-hmm. 

Kush : And, you know, I was maybe, yeah, I was maybe a little bit clueless. I thought that this was the book about your, climbing. Yeah. And after reading it, and I was just like, yeah, I was, I I was just, uh, shocked that it was not about climbing and I was about how you went and kayaked the Grand Canyon.

So yeah, I was, I was stupefied and then I was, I read through it. I absolutely loved the book. 

Erik: Um. Glad to hear that. Thank you. Yeah, 

Kush : no, it was, it was, it was hard work, 

Erik: so I'm glad, glad people are actually enjoying it. 

Kush : The first thing I, the first thing that came to my mind as I was turning the PD was like, I was like, okay, there's this guy who, who cannot see who's a climber and who's climbed like, [00:53:00] like the seven summits.

He's climbed Mount Everest. He goes rock climbing, and now he, you know, most of us to climb like that itself is an all consuming hobby, passion. Like, like, you know, and, and at some point Eric went and picked up this new challenge now, and I think that this is not the only new challenge you've picked up.

You have gone on and done some other rad things. So was it this gradual unlocking of like. Did you decide one day that you're gonna go and do these impossible things, Eric? Or like, did just one thing o opening, one door succeeding, encourage you to take on just more and more ambitions? 

Erik: That's such a good question and there's so much to unpack there.

Where do I even start? You know, like, one, I guess maybe I'll step one. 

Robot: Um, [00:54:00] 

Erik: it's not, it's not like this epiphany, you know, when I first climbed at 16, I didn't get to the top of the face and lift my hands up and go, I'll climb Everest someday. No, it's step by step. You know, as you said, one door opens and ano that opens another door and that opens another door.

that seems to be the way it works for me. You know, so I was up on this huge ice face, across the valley from Namche Bazaar, it's called Losar. It's like an almost 3000 foot vertical ice face. And, uh, we were vying, two thirds of the way up the face on the edge on this little horrible ledge and wind just hammering down.

And we had a bowl of soup, you know, for dinner, and we're kind of miserable. And, and I said, uh, Rob, to my buddy, I was like, I know you're a kayaker. What's that like? And he is like, oh, it's way better than climbing. He's like, it's sunny. usually and the water's warm and you've got a raft that like can follow you and carry beer and at nighttime you sit around the fire and you can eat good food.

I'm like, oh my God. That sounds amazing. [00:55:00] 

Kush : Good, good, good salesperson. 

Erik: So, uh, when we got down from that climb, he went up to my mountain, this mountain lake, in freezing cold water, he is waist deep. And he, and in a couple hours I had a couple shaky rolls and, and I practiced my role and eventually I said, Hey Rob, do you wanna, uh, like guide me down some easy rivers?

And he said, yeah, let's do it. And so we trained and we worked together. We figured out the system, kayak some easy rivers. And at that point I said, it, it's kind of a circle sometimes. 'cause I had guided blind kids for no barriers down the Grand Canyon. We were in rafts, of course.

Uh, and, uh, we only did half the Grand Canyon. And then we hiked out at, uh, um, at the middle there. and, and one of the kayaking guides there named Harlan Tanny. Had said, Hey, if you ever learned to kayak, come back and I'll guide you down the river. So I called Harlan, I had Rob as my guide. I [00:56:00] grabbed a few other amazing kayakers like Timmy O'Neill put him on my team.

I even had another blind guy named, a Lottie Bedwell, who's who turns out he was a really amazing kayaker. my God, you should interview this guy. He is 60 years old and he is, he's a kayaker. He is totally blind. He is climbed Everest like me. The guy is, he's amazing. He's a farmer out of Duggar Indiana too.

So anyway, we collected this team and we kayaked the Grand Canyon together God, it was an amazing adventure. And, but I will say you're right, like at 40 years old when you're embarking on this new sport of whitewater kayaking for the blind, One of a couple things appealed to me. One was like I mentioned, this kind of map of like building a team and engineering like your, your way forward.

I was really intrigued by that. Like I really love that process of trying to figure out your way forward and, you know, how do, how do you engineer that, that way forward on that adventure that sometimes [00:57:00] seems impossible. I guess, well second thing was I want, I, I wanted to experience rivers.

I didn't like understand rivers. I understood mountains. So I wanted to see like, could I flourish as a blind person in a river environment? That would be really cool to see if that was possible. And I guess the last piece was like, I thought like what if like my climbing successes were like a fluke in some way.

Like maybe, you know, I wonder if I could, you know, like maybe I just got lucky or something like, could I repeat this success and a totally new venue. Those are all the things going on my mind in the beginning there, 

Kush : Eric, you take the word curiosity to the next dimension. 

Robot: Mm-hmm. 

Kush : Because yeah, many people are curious about many things.

Not all of us are trying to Yeah. Do the things you're doing. And then also question like these, I don't know [00:58:00] these huge successes. I used to kayak a little bit. I went to school or grad school, Florida. So it started with, uh, just, uh, kayaking around the backwaters and springs. And then I did a bit of white water kayaking, actually, Nepal.

Erik: Cool. Yeah. There's some really good 

Kush : kayaking there. Some really good kayaking there. And I never got my battle roll down, so like, yeah. Yeah. I maybe if I had put more time and maybe I think I wasn't smart, like I just kept butting my head against it and, and I'm like, you know, whatever, I'm not gonna do this.

yeah. Maybe you are. You are like. Pushing me at, maybe now at the age of 47, at some point I can, you know, just be smarter and, and learn how to do that. And I'm guessing. Yeah, I 

Erik: would agree. By the way, I'll interrupt you there and I'll agree because like with a combat role, like it's not about brute force, right?

It's technique. Like, it's like a lot of times it's your own head, like, believe it or not, your own skull weighs a lot. And yeah, your head's too far out there and you're trying to like roll [00:59:00] up and you're trying to bring this big, heavy head up out of the water. So you have to like be able, there's like subtleties of like getting your head back and ma and getting that outta the equation as you roll up.

So there's all kinds of beautiful subtleties that make it so much easier once you figure that out. 

Kush : Agreed. Agreed. I I, I ought to give it, uh, a second chance at some point. And I'm guessing that yes, even if, you know, most people listening haven't kayaked, many of us have. It gone down in a raft and at least have some sense of what it might mean to be in a flotation device, in a moving body of water, and countering rapids.

But you were doing that on the Grand Canyon in this tiny vessel without being able to see. So yeah, you're dropping into these big rapids, crazy noise [01:00:00] rocks, chaos. Uh, can you take us into that moment for a second on what's going on through your head? 

Erik: Oh God, yeah. I mean, whenever you go into a big rapid as a blind person, it's really, really scary.

And I'm so glad I climbed before I kayaked because climbing sort of prepared me, but not quite because. Climbing is kind of a slow, methodical, physical sustained effort. But you can stop, you know, if you have to, you can hang on the rope if you're tired, or you can stop on the side of the slope. Even skiing, you can stop on the side of the slope and regroup, kayaking.

You're like, take that breath and you go down that slip into that, into that rapid, and I don't know what's gonna happen in the next two or three minutes. Like, I know so many things are gonna happen to me in my boat, um, that, I mean, I'm gonna have to be reacting like so fast to all those things that are happening to [01:01:00] me and at me.

And if I don't react quickly enough or in the right way, you know, I'm gonna get slammed into the side of the wall or go into a big pile of boulders or into some kind of hole that might be dangerous in the river. there's just a lot. And like I have guides behind me who are yelling directions on a radio, on a waterproof.

Two-way radio system. they have very simple commands, you know, hard left, hard right? just hard, just left and right, which means a medium left or right. charge, which means like charge into that wave because you're about to get destroyed. If you don't, if you just kind of passively float into it, you gotta charge through it and then, uh, stop paddling or back paddle.

So really, really simple commands, right? And, uh, that pack a lot of information in. But the thing is, even when somebody says turn left, the current might be pulling you, right? So even though I think I'm going left in relationship to my mind, the [01:02:00] current is still pulling me in the wrong direction. and then when you flip over, you roll up and sometimes you're facing upriver, you're totally disoriented.

So I don't even know, like, where am I, I have to get like oriented again. Uh, just with listening to the river features and trying to hear the canyon walls, which is really, really hard when you're in this massive roar of sound that's just totally engulfing you. so yeah, no, kayaking was wild. It was, it was like trying to harness energy harness and just ride it, you know, like there's no way you could control it.

it was a really fun and challenging lesson for sure. Every time I go into a rapid, I would just be, you know, like, here it goes again. And, uh, I get goose, you know, kind of like my heart flutters a little bit, just thinking about like, entering into a rapid, you know, you're, you're in a tiny little kayak.

I can't see. I have a helmet on, I have a radio on, like around my ear, one [01:03:00] ear. The other ear is open so that I can hear the river. I have a little microphone in front of my mouth. Um, I'm in this PFD, this personal location device. Uh, you're in like, probably like a, you know, a, a dry suit or, or you're covered in neoprene, you know, and, and so you're just like, you kind of feel like as you're riding into that, uh, rapid, that you're like, you know, like, you're like an astronaut just about to be launched into space or something.

It's a, it's a wild feeling. 

Kush : Eric. I was, I was mountain biking yesterday and I was thinking about our upcoming conversation this morning, and. I was going down, you know, some, like some medium blue trails. Like not class, not class, like whatever, six rapids like you were in, uh, in the Grand Canyon. And I think I was trying to imagine what it would be like to navigate the raw gardens or just going down the trail without sight and having just somebody [01:04:00] like yelling into my, I don't know, my earbuds on.

Yeah. Yeah. And I was, yeah, I mean, I was like, oh my God, I can't do it. Like, just the like visual perception felt so, just so acute, so, so necessary. And you are going down these huge rapids and I don't know if people even realize that, you know, this is not some like. I don't know, some, some drone pilot over your head.

This is somebody who's behind you trying to navigate in their own kayak. 

Erik: Yeah, they're trying to work their way down. Yeah. Yeah. And not flip over and smashing walls themselves. They're 

Kush : working their way down on like some of the most formidable, uh, rapids on this planet in this country. And now they're having to instruct you as well, so, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, obviously Yeah. Kudos to, to your guides as well. 

Erik: Big time. I mean, they would compare it to, [01:05:00] um, a video game where like, you know, they're trying to control like this little blind guy on the screen with a joystick, but at the same time, they're trying to control themselves with their own joystick, you know, and, and the blind guy doesn't always do what they want 'em to do, or like, he doesn't always do the, the thing that you expect, right?

So there's a wild card function in there, in that game too. 

Kush : Last question on this, which is how different was the actual experience going down the Grand Canyon compared to this image Rob had sold you on?

Erik: Well, it took a long time to kind of break through and to like enjoying kayaking. I was always so nervous, you know, I was always so scared, you know, like that fear kind of was always at the top, you know? And I guess eventually you kind of learn never to totally eradicate [01:06:00] fear, but to kind of push it out to the peripheries and then, okay.

And so if you think about it like, you know, some kind of hyperbaric chamber, well, you can't just push the fear out and then have a vacuum in the middle. What do you replace in the center of your mind? Well, it becomes, focus becomes kind of a awareness. It becomes kind of gratitude for like your life and where you are and where you happen to be.

And so you replace all that stuff with fear, from fear. And uh, and I found that finally I was able to experience kayaking fully. You know, presently, Harlan used to say like, Hey, just calm down. You're here, you're present. You know, you no mistakes. Just, just be here in the moment, right? And I found that eventually after tons and tons of practice, I could do that.

You know, I could, I could count, you know, the space. I was aware of the space between breaths, you know, when ca when Rapids hit me, like it wasn't like so fast and furious [01:07:00] where I'd just go like instinctual. I could, like w you know, I was aware of what I was doing and I was connected with the water and it was really, really beautiful sometimes.

I remember after certain days getting through Big Rapids on the Grand Canyon, just sitting on the beach and reflecting and feeling like, almost like a. Spiritual feel of, of connection, you know, like obviously, you know, some people believe in God, like as a guy with a white beard and you know, that's fine, that's fine.

Nothing, no judgments. But like for me it's like, it was more like, it felt the magic or the, this sort of eternal power of the canyon and, and this massive wild environment and the universe all around me and the energy that I was connected to. And it, it was, I couldn't explain it away any other way. Like saying it was a spiritual feeling of like, hey, I'm a part of this amazing [01:08:00] spectrum.

and it made me feel happy and comfortable.

Kush : Wow. Eric, that was profound. Thanks for sharing that. Reflection, and I think I remember what you said for a while, which was that space between breaths. I think I know for myself, yeah, I, I don't know how often I think about that. I, I think I think about that when I may be the most gripped, you know? Yeah.

Oh 

Erik: yeah. Big time. About, about 

Kush : some sketch. Yeah. 

Erik: You forget to breathe when you're, or be aware when you're terrified. 

Kush : But then being able to harness that, I think that is a skill that Yes. Seems so valuable. Eric, you said yourself, like you are 56 now, and you have been pushing barriers, and how has aging shifted the way you choose your objectives?

Has your, has your definition of, of pushing [01:09:00] limits changed? 

Erik: Yeah. Well, yeah, getting older. You know, it's funny, like sometimes like in my mind I think like, oh, you know, people are like, oh, you're amazing that you do this blind. And I'm like, blindness isn't the hardest thing. It's being 56 and my back hurts.

You know, like that's the bigger challenge than being blind. When I was young, I had great knees and back and elbows and everything. I never thought about any of that stuff, but as you get older, yeah. So a lot of to, to maintain as a older athlete, like I do focus a lot on therapy, you know, if you will.

Like I, I get some physical therapy on my back. They put me in these crazy tractions and try to straighten my back. That's like a little bit crooked these days. you know, I've been to physical therapy with my knee. I get like massages sometimes. I'm always trying to like do yoga and things like that to like, maintain good flexibility in my back and my hips, which are always so [01:10:00] tight.

and so yeah, I'm just thinking a lot about like, kind of like, uh, my, my Skyler, who's only 40, he is my manager. He always laughs. He's like, what treatments are you doing today? And I'm like, you're totally right. I am doing treatments today. Like, uh, maybe it's acupuncture, maybe it's like, you know, some kind of like, uh, uh, neuromuscular massage, you know, like, you know, but yeah, no, but I'm holding up Okay.

with, you know, some of those things that start to get more serious. I'm still climbing. I, I don't, as I said earlier, I don't love hiking, you know, hours and hours and hours with a big pack on my back. That kind of starts to feel like I'm hurting my spine. For the most part, I'm hanging in there, you know, 'cause you're, you, you, most of climbing is plotting away and fit kind of endurance and just moving and knowing how to move efficiently and so forth and, and age kind of helps you with all that kind of stuff.

It also helps you with your expectations. 'cause your [01:11:00] mind knows how hard you're gonna have to work to get this thing done. So you kind of have a little more familiarity there. But no, definitely, um, I spend more time these days, you know, trying to maintain and trying to keep my muscles and bones working 

Kush : age, uh, affects all of us.

You know, it's the, uh, it's the one truth in the universe. And but do, do, do. I will say that you are still pushing, pushing yourself. Uh. You just came back from this adventure? The way you are even choosing your objectives. 

Robot: Yeah. 

Kush : Has that changed? 

Erik: Yeah. Um, really, because like I've climbed so many big peaks in the world, like Himalayan peaks, like those are fun.

But, you know, like I, I really am intrigued by vertical movement these [01:12:00] days. So yeah, like I've gotten really back to rock and ice climbing. Um, so like, I'm going rock climbing the Dolomites in September and in January I'm going to a beautiful place I've never gone to and kind of su let's see, Northern Patagonia called Como, where they have like 28 pitch rock climbs with, you know, an ice face at the top that you have to navigate, you know, and 

Robot: Sure.

Stuff like 

Erik: that. I find, uh. Just really, um, intriguing and, and interesting and I'm curious like, you know, about how I might be able to do those things. so that's, that's really where more, where my climbing life is taking me these days. You know, like a climb like that, even that 20 pitch, 28 pitch climb couple days to get to the base, probably two days to climb it, couple days to get back.

So six, seven days you're back at base camp and you're all celebrating instead of, [01:13:00] you know, a month or two months up and down the mountain, you know? sure. You 

Kush : know, Eric, most people hear about your accomplishments and Yeah. The, the summits, even these. E even these big trips you have coming out, like you seem in many ways, uh, somebody who's always out there charging hard and accomplishing big things. so how, how are you outside of adventure at, at home with family in your everyday rhythms? Are you the same person people see out there, or are you quite different? Yeah. 

Erik: you know, you're always trying to match your, you know, make sure you're, your, your true and authentic in the way you present yourself.

I mean, but yeah, no, I would say like, I'm, I'm positive in life with friendships and, [01:14:00] and so forth. Uh, but personally sometimes, you know, like I'm an average human being, sometimes I get grumpy or tired and. Uh, you know, I'll say something sharp to my partner, you know what I mean, just like any human and, and I have to apologize and work on how you communicate and so forth.

So you, I mean, you know, I don't know what I'm trying to say, but I mean, you know, being a public figure, you're still a human being still struggling with the same stuff that everyone else struggles with. Right. And, uh, and I guess like climbing is a little bit of a double-edged sword. Um, because my first 30 years of adult life I was climbing so hard and focused so hard on climbing.

You know, I think I was a good dad. I have, I have a, a little, I had a little girl, Emma, and uh, a boy that we adopted from Nepal named Arjun, uh, and they're both in college and doing really well. But I kind of like. Struggled a little bit 'cause I'd be away from home [01:15:00] for two months at a time. and, uh, you know, like, miss my daughter walking for the first time, you know?

So those things were hard on a family, really hard. I'm divorced now, sadly. And so I feel like probably my passion for climbing, um, led to the end of my marriage in some ways, because it's just hard to balance and be good at everything. Sure. And put the amount of time that you should put into things, into all the important things in your life.

You know what I mean? So, so I, I, I say that not like I'm complaining or anything, but just so people understand this life isn't perfect. It's a, it is, it can be a double-edged sword, if you don't sort of figure out how to attack it in the right way. 

Kush : Indeed. Uh, thanks for sharing that. Eric. Life indeed is complex.

I, I just, uh, interviewed Jim Dini. 

Erik: Yeah. Incredible human 

Kush : past weekend and yeah, just complex, you know, like in [01:16:00] hindsight, I think what we talked about is like, you know, they, they know bad decisions, right? We make decisions based on the information we have available at the moment, and, and everything has usually a cost associated.

Uh, okay. Maybe a fun question, and we are running outta time, but if I had to ask maybe one of your climbing partners may maybe, uh, Lenore or, or or Nick from this past trip on one thing they love about Eric and one thing they have to tolerate, what would they say? 

Erik: Oh my God. That's the hardest question you've asked on this interview.

What would people say about me? Oh, boy. I mean, when I was younger, my friends used to call me super blind. I kind of like that. It was, uh, I felt like a blind superhero. so now I call myself the artist, formally known as Super Blind. [01:17:00] Uh, no, Lenore and Nick, I think they, um, I think they really dug the experience, at least they told me.

So, you know, like, seeing as you mentioned earlier, like how a blind person does function and charge through the mountains. And I, and I feel like people think about that as, you know, when they're thinking about their own capabilities, their own, um, ways of moving through the world. I think that is inspiring for them.

So, yeah, I think, uh, you know, Lenore, uh, became a good friend and Nick has just been an amazing friend and, and we support each other. Um. In a way, I think blindness kind of melts away eventually, and you just become friends and you just see each other for, you know, deeper things than surface. 

Kush : And I should say that this has nothing to do with your, you know, your, your sensory abilities just as a person.

Erik: Yeah. 

Kush : What would they say? 

Erik: Uh, I think I'd like to be, I'd hope they'd say that I'm a good friend. Okay. Um, that I care about people, [01:18:00] that I'm not transactional, you know, like, I don't just like, use people to go climbing. Right. Like, for me, the people come first, you know, I say to somebody, man, I like hanging out with you.

We should go do something together. What do you want to, what can we do together? You know? And we come up with a cool idea. Um, it's not like, Hey, I want to go do this, and I just wanna like, put the puzzle pieces together. I'm, I always think that's backwards. Uh, so the people for me comes first. 

Kush : Eric. I asked this question of everybody as well towards the end, which is, which is, what does being an ageless athlete mean to you now?

And what would you say to someone who thinks their big adventures are behind them? 

Robot: Hmm. 

Erik: Well one, it is funny as time passes, you know, like I remember I was always the young guy in the trips. Like every trip I was the youngest guy and now I'm 56, I'm climbing with guys half my age. And so it makes me [01:19:00] proud to still be out there.

You know, I'm working harder as a blind person. I'm twice their age and I'm still out there functioning at a pretty high level. And, and I, that makes me proud. And, um, and I also think like blindness for me is a badge of honor at this age of life. Um, it's no longer something that's embarrassing. It's like, Hey, I've gone through things that maybe some other people haven't and, and I'm proud of the things.

Been able to, the barriers I've been able to break through and, and learn about myself. so, yeah. And there's a third part, but I can't remember now. No, that is, that is good. Um, um, oh yeah, yeah. No, I know what I was gonna say. Um, the last piece of that I think is that like, I, I think we can tend to see ourselves, like our futures in this kind of linear way.

You know, like after I climbed Everest, people are like, what are you gonna do next? What are you gonna do next? It's always like, what are you gonna do next? You know, gonna climb something harder, something higher, something riskier. [01:20:00] And I think that linear path leads us to like disaster to injuries, to acts, to death, you know, to unfulfillment, by the way.

So for me, it's not about like, Hey, I want to climb something harder and do something riskier. No, I've, I've experienced about as much risk as I. I wanna face, you know, so for me, that's not the issue for me. It's like, okay, how do you challenge yourself, uh, in different ways as you age, in ways that feel good where you're still learning and growing and, and trying to make an impact in the world.

it's a more subtle sort of path forward than just it know, what am I gonna do next? Sure. 

Kush : you know, challenges doesn't always have to be about taking risk. It can be no, or at least physical risk. I mean, sometimes, you know, a lot of people say that. Yes. Uh, I, I think I, I've heard climbers say that, that they would rather, I don't know, free solo some route than go up on stage and speak in front of an audience.

So like, I guess the, the, the term challenge can be different [01:21:00] for, ah, yeah, 

Erik: that's for sure 

Kush : for everybody. Uh, couple of final, uh, questions. Eric, what does maybe one. Habit or routine or behavior that has impacted you most deeply in the last few years? 

Erik: well, I think I've always had discipline and so the last few years, you know, as I train for things, I have to really get after it, you know what I mean?

And so like how to get the 56-year-old body in mind ready for a climb, you know, I have to focus a little bit more, spend a little more time, get a little more recovery in there, make sure I don't get injured. you know, that's the whole training, the physical and emotional training for things has changed a little bit.

And I, um, you know, but you, you have to focus and have discipline in the same way, even more in a way, than when you're young because you can't do as many things off the couch. And as a blind guy, I don't, I don't ever want to be a liability up there. So I'm always training as hard as I humanly [01:22:00] can to get ready for things.

That's, that's a constant in my life, I think. 

Kush : Sure. What is one exercise or training routine that you swear by? 

Erik: Oh, so many things. One, I've been working lately on making sure, trying to get my squishy abs fit and my, and uh, doing back extensions so that like my lower back, I can improve that. And I've done IGOs, which is like a co cool physical therapy to keep yourself fluid.

I do yoga. I, I uh, I love this new machine I just bought. It's called a vers climber. It's like this kind of machine where you're like, it kind of, your feet are in these. These pegs and you're holding these pegs and you're kind of scrambling. It's like the motion of scrambling your knees going up high and your arms moving and you can get on the backside of it, and it's kind of overhung and you can kind of, uh, simulate climbing.

I have a tread wall that I get on outside of, in my [01:23:00] yard. Uh, so yeah, there's so many things that I do, you know, just as a routine. 

Kush : Sure. I mean, yeah. Like, no, I think in that way you are probably just like any other, uh, cla who's, you know, facing, uh, facing, let's say abilities that are changing, which is like you are just still as obsessed and motivated to, uh, to, to stay in shape and to be able to, uh.

Keep climbing. Climbing. Well as, as long as, as you can. We've talked about movement a lot, Eric. Is there one thing that you do that is not movement oriented, but brings you peace? 

Erik: Oh my gosh, yes. For sure. I, uh, during COVID I started learning to play the guitar, and I probably play an hour, hour and a half a day when I can.

Yeah. I love it so much. It's like its own kind of therapy. It's different from climbing, uh, because it's like more, well, [01:24:00] climbing's pretty creative, I guess. But guitar is like different kind of creativity, you know, like learning a song and mastering the chords and the strings and the words, and trying to do it all together.

Sing and play all together. Yeah. So that's just like complete happiness and peace every day. Uh, and I, and I really love it. I'm, I'm gonna do it till the day I die. 

Kush : That's amazing, Eric, I mean, like you picking up guitar in your fifties, are we gonna see you play in public anytime? 

Erik: I've played a few times in public.

I've put a few, a song or two on the, uh, on social media. Okay, okay. Yeah. But yeah, no, I mostly am like a, a campfire guitar player sitting around the campfire, play a few fun songs, you know? That's what I love. Maybe it's just so fun. Maybe that's a, music is such a beautiful way to bring people together, just like 

Kush : I think that sounds like that was part of, uh, the, this idea of kayaking that Rob promised you, which is, uh, 

ending 

Kush : the day or on the campfire, you're [01:25:00] like, well, I guess I'd have to play those songs myself And Eric, last question. You know, you come back from like a, a big adventure, like maybe the kind you had in the bugaboos where at some point you are out of food and you were boiling gummy bears to make tea.

What is. That one meal that you look forward to when you're back on dry, back, back, back within amenities? 

Erik: Yes. You may you ask the best questions because I freaking love Thai food. And when I come back to Golden, there's a great Thai restaurant called, uh, Thai Gold, and I get, uh, Panang, Curry tofu. Panang Curry.

I dream about it on climbs. I love it so much. 

Kush : Oh my gosh, 

Erik: that sounds amazing. I eat, I could eat Thai food every night of the week, 

Kush : you know? I know. 

Erik: I was born German. Like I don't even really like potatoes and things like that. I love Thai food. 

Kush : I also [01:26:00] love really good Thai food. Actually, my time in Golden, I was telling you about two months ago, we ended up going to that pizza buffet place because that was Oh yeah, the 

Erik: Nepali Sherpa house.

Is that the name of the pizza buffet? That's Woody's. That's really good. 

Kush : Yeah, that was quite good. But I think we did try to, I think we did try to go to some Asian place, but that was closing. So next time I'm there, and if you are around, Eric, I'm gonna hit you up and see if you're up for some, uh, tofu, panang, curry, or, uh, alright.

Yeah, 

Erik: for sure. Make it a plan. For sure. We'll do that. 

Kush : Eric, thank you so much. It's all right. Probably been a, a long held. Yeah, no, thank you so much for coming on the show today. Such a joy to have you. Thanks for sharing so much. 

Erik: Ah, so good. I love being in the inner sanctum of Timmy O'Neill and Hans and Nick, my three heroes.

Kush : I just feel fortunate I can complete this [01:27:00] quorum have you have you on the show today. Awesome. Have a, have a great trip. Thanks friend.