He Missed the Cutoff by 17 Minutes — Then Came Back at 80 | Bob Becker

Ageless Athlete Recording - Bob Becker - June 2026
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Kush: [00:00:00] Bob, has endurance sport changed your relationship with aging or even how you think about mortality? 

Bob: No question about it. , I, starting running when I was, 60 years old, has made me and kept me healthier and more active than I could possibly otherwise have -been, , if I hadn't done these things.

I've got some lung issues, . I should not be able to run . The distances that I do. And the reason I'm able to do it is because of my level of fitness and the consistency of that fitness over 20-plus years now , at my age, I'm still able to do a lot of, uh, a lot of things that many others otherwise couldn't do.

Kush (2): Imagine discovering the sport that would change your life at 57 years old. Most of us grow up believing our biggest adventures belong to our younger years, that by the time we are in our 60s, 70s, or 80s, we are simply trying to hold on to what we have.[00:01:00] 

Bob Becker has spent the last 23 years quietly proving the opposite. When Bob first joined me on Ageless Athlete last year, he shared how he went from running his first marathon in his late 50s to competing in some of the toughest ultra-marathons on Earth. We talked about purpose, perseverance, and one unforgettable moment at Badwater one thirty-five, where after nearly 48 hours crossing Death Valley in temperatures well above 120 degrees, he reached the finish line just 17 minutes beyond the official cutoff.

Most people would have called that enough. Bob didn't. This last year, he returned to Badwater and officially finished the race, becoming the oldest finisher in the event's history. In today's [00:02:00] conversation, we pick up where the first one left off. We talk about what it felt like to stand on the start line again after such a heartbreaking experience, what was going through his mind during the darkest moments of the race, and how his training, recovery, and mindset have evolved from his 60s into his 80s.

Well, this episode isn't really about running or ultra running. It is about staying capable. It is about learning the difference between discomfort you should embrace and pain you should respect. It's about discovering that some of life's greatest adventures don't begin in your 20s. They begin when many people believe the best years are already behind them.

And if you haven't listened to my first conversation with Bob, I highly recommend going back and finding it. Just search for Bob Becker in the Ageless Athlete feed. [00:03:00] It tells the first chapter of an extraordinary story. This is chapter two with Bob

Kush: Bob, last time we spoke, we spent a good bit of time about that incredibly emotional 2022 Badwater finish, and you made it to the line after, yeah, nearly 48 hours. You had to crawl at the end, but you missed the cutoff by 17 minutes.

Then you came back, and at the age of 80, you officially finished the race, becoming the oldest finisher in Badwater history. So let me congratulate you again, Bob. 

Bob: Thank you. 

Kush: Amazing. Amazing stuff. So I would love to start right there. Bob, what did this finish mean to you emotionally?

Bob: [00:04:00] Well, I, after the 2022 attempt was actually my second attempt to become the oldest finisher. the year before I was chosen, I got into the race, and I made some rookie mistakes early on and did not, uh, balance my nutrition, hydration, and electrolytes in particular very well. And by the time I hit mile 42, I think it was, I got some severe charley horsing, some calf cramping that, uh, basically knocked me out of the race.

By the time I recovered, I'd missed the first cutoff, official cutoff, which was at 50 miles, so I was out of the race. so when I came back in 2022, that was actually my second attempt, and I always felt on paper like, uh, it was something I could, I could do, and if it hadn't been for my back just kinda going its own way in 2022, I think I would've finished as, like you said, it was 17 minutes over the finish, uh, the allowable time.

But I, I had no specific plan to return, uh, other than to [00:05:00] work the race. I sh- I do something every year. I crew, or I work on the staff,or I'm running. but in, I think it was November of '24, uh, I wound up going out to Arizona to run Marshall and Heather Ulrich's Route 66 Ultra, which is about 140 miles, and,and I did well, and I enjoyed it.

And it kind of inspired me to think again about the possibility of giving it one more shot at Badwater, uh, because as I said, again, on paper, I thought it was always, always possible. And that, that Route 66, finish gave me some confidence. So in speaking to my longtime coach, uh, Lisa Smith-Batchen We agreed to, uh, to give it a shot, and Lisa was able to find the time to get away and become my crew chief at Badwater last year, which was extremely important because nobody knows me better than she does.

And,when you have those moments during the race, during a race like this where you don't wanna eat, [00:06:00] you don't wanna drink, uh, you need tough love, and she's perfectly capable of keeping me, uh, uh, on the straight and narrow. And I was v- also fortunate to have Marshall and Heather Ulrich on my crew.

between the three of them and a good friend of mine, Will Litwin, I had the best support group I could possibly have. The race went well. Uh, the stars aligned. It just all fit. And, I crossed the line in 45 hours flat, 45:00:08 I think it was. and it was exhilarating. I mean, you, you... It's exhausting and exhilarating all at the same time, and,I just, I was just so pleased that what seemed reasonable on paper turned out to be reasonable in li- in reality.

so yeah, it was very exciting and, yeah, there was a big crowd of people there welcoming me to the finish line. It was really a lot of fun. And, uh, yeah, one of those, one of those things I'll never forget, that's for sure. 

Kush: Incredible, Bob. Did this [00:07:00] feel redemptive in- 

Bob: Yeah, it did. Oh, yeah ... in a way? In, in its own way, it did.

Because again, it was one of those things, Kush, I real- I just really felt there was no reason I couldn't get, I couldn't finish that race. it just, that, I know the race, I know the course very well. and I knew what my limited capabilities were in terms of, of running and walking and pace, and I just felt that the numbers should work.

And so yeah, it was, redem- redemption is, redemptiveness is about right. 

Kush: you said that you had that crushing failure, and it's kinda difficult to actually call it a failure, to be honest, because you finished the race. You ran 135 miles. You gave it everything, and you just missed it by a few minutes.

But I can imagine how crushing that must have felt to you as a human being. And then it seems like you might have thought that the chapter had closed, right? It was [00:08:00] done. But somehow you managed to keep that energy around you, like maybe the people who are part of that community, you still kept doing these other races.

So it's almost like there was this this unconscious strategy on like, "Hey, okay, I, I, I don't think I wanna do this, but if I somehow am part of that energy and I keep doing other things, who knows?" And you came back to it 

Bob: Yeah, and that, and that may, you may be right. It may have been something subconscious, but I r- truly for the next couple of years after 2022, no, I wasn't actively thinking about it.

But, uh, I guess it was always in the back of my head that, maybe, right? And then, and then when Route... And I was doing other races, you're right. And then when Route 66 came along and went well, I thought, "Yeah, you know what? I, I just, I owe it, I owe myself one more shot if I can get in." And, and, and truly [00:09:00] if Lisa thought that it was something that I was trainable, if you will, at that point, and, she was absolutely, uh, uh, gung ho for it as well.

And, yeah. So, the beauty of her training and our fit together as coach and, and student is that she virtually always has me ready on race day, and I never get injured because she doesn't allow me to over-train. She's very conscious of age-specific training, uh, race-specific training.

Uh, she, I mean, it, it's just a great fit, and, she had me ready. And then by being there, uh, she was able to, hold my hand through the race in an appropriate way to keep me going, keep me on track, make sure I was taking in enough calories, which on a number of occasions I just didn't wanna do, and she got me there.

Again, along with a tremendous amount of help from Marshall and Heather and, and Will. So I really do owe my crew a lot for having kept me on plan, and that was the key. We had the plan. We just had to stick to it, and we were able [00:10:00] to. 

Kush: Bob, I want to spend a few minutes on that race again because, yes, I want to learn more about what went down that day, but there are people listening who may not understand what Badwater is.

So what makes this race so special, and then also so tough? 

Bob: Well, it's, the, the race is called Badwater after the name of the location where the race starts. Badwater Basin is part of Death Valley, California, which is where most of the race is actually run. And Death Valley is, uh, uh, actually has the highest recorded temperature in the history of the world, right?

I think 132 degrees in Death Valley. And typically in July, which is when the race is held, temps are in the 120s. I mean, it's extremely hot. That's, that is one of the challenges. The other challenge, of course, is it's 135 miles. Uh, they're about, it's about 14,000 feet of elevation gain, and what also makes it tough for a back-of-the-pack guy like [00:11:00] me is the race starts at night.

So we're running through two nights, and staying awake and, uh, being able to manage sleep deprivation a- while at the same time getting, getting some sleep is a big challenge, because that clock is running. And,so there are a number of things that make it a difficult race. It's iconic for a number of reasons.

One, it's been around a long time, uh, in addition to those challenges, and the Park Service, the National Park Service only allows 100 people in the race. So it's a very small race, and it's, uh, it's, it's one that, uh, it just become more and more iconic because of its difficulty and the, the, great athletes who have run there And for me it, uh, since 2007 when I went there for the first time as a crew member for a friend of mine, uh, I fell in love with the culture of the race, that very much family atmosphere, the desert itself, which I find absolutely [00:12:00] beautiful.

And by the way, for those who don't know, it's a road race. You're not actually running on the sand. So my first ultra was the Marathon Des Sables over in Morocco in the Sahara. That is running on the sand and the rocks. Uh, but, uh, Badwater you're actually running on the road, s- starting again at, uh, at Badwater Basin, which is the lowest point in the Western Hemisphere.

It's 282 feet below sea level, and you finish on Mount Whitney at the portal, which is the end of the road on Mount Whitney, and from there you can climb to the summit. Well, Whitney's claim to fame is it's the highest peak in the lower 48 states at 14,552 feet, I think it is. The portal is at about 8,500 feet.

So you're starting below sea level. You're ending at 8,500 feet with a couple of climbs along the way. so it gives you all y- it gives you all the challenge you need, that's for sure. and I've been there, like I said, every year since 2007 in some capacity. It's, uh, the original Badwater camp follower here, I guess.

[00:13:00] but you know, it's like it's old home week. It's family week when you go out to, when you go out there every year, and it's just something I've, I just ab- absolutely love to do. 

Kush: Bob, really appreciate demystifying- ... what Badwater, what the race is. And it's so many of, so many parts of that race feel unfathomable, all of those things, the distance The elevation changes, the fact that it is on road, which is a harder surface to run on, and then the temperature.

I mean, if you just put a pin on that for a second, some of us have been lucky to visit the beautiful landscape that is Death Valley, but I have been there in the winter a couple of times. But in the summertime, those are temperatures that most of us will never 

how does it even feel to be in those temperatures in July in Death Valley? I mean, are you literally [00:14:00] melting? Or how do you keep your... Actually, I should say, how do you keep yourself from melting? 

Bob: Well, it, it, it, first you want to, uh, you want to try to moderate your speed in the hottest possible parts of the day a little bit as best you can.

The key is, the key is staying ahead of it. So you want to use a lot of ice in, uh, in a bandana around your neck, in, uh, in something under your hat. You want to keep the sun off you, so most people will run in long sleeves. Uh, one year, the first year, I actually ran in a sun suit. It was long sleeves and long pants, which I don't typically do, but, but, but interestingly this year, remember we start at night.

So the next day, given my pace, I wound up in an area called Panamint Valley at roughly, 70 miles or so in, and it's an extremely hot part of, of the race route. And I got there at a very hot time of day. And as you kind of indicated a little while ago, the, that blacktop, the road, absorbs that heat and [00:15:00] radiates it back, and my, my legs were literally burning.

So, I actually wound up putting on a pair of long pants to help get that, get the radiation, move it away from my skin. So you do, you do whatever it takes, but the key is to really to stay cool, to ice down. You meet your crew every two or three miles. ice towels, uh, sometimes some, some people actually get in a, in a cooler and do like an ice bath.

No, I don't do that. But between cold towel, wet towels, and ice on my body, frequently enough, hydrating and using electrolytes in a proper balance and being sure to take in calories, uh, it, it works. it, uh, you can get through it. And then at night when it- It, when you're out of the direct sun, the heat isn't as intense.

But it's not like it really cools down at night, because not only does the road retain the heat, but all the sand and rocks next to the road retain the heat and radiate it back all [00:16:00] night long. So, it cools off some, but it stays pretty hot most of the night. And then the next morning, sun's out again and, you're slammed with it.

But it, the key is staying a step ahead of it by icing down 

Kush: Bob, take us to the start line. This is, again, nighttime. You are standing there in Death Valley again. You know exactly how brutal this race is. You kn- you know what suffering lies ahead. So what is honestly going through your mind as you are at the start line?

Bob: it, honestly, it's trying to s- uh, other than the excitement and the adrenaline pumping, which is always the case at a s- at the start of a race, and saying hi to your friends, and, and giving a hug here and there, it's... I'm, I'm just reminding myself to s- go slow to go fast. Don't let the emotions start with, uh, without the, w- with running too fast for too long a period [00:17:00] of time.

Get on my run walk plan right away, as quickly as possible. Let everybody go. I have no problem at all being, being last at the start, because I know over a period of time I'll pick off a few people. I like to joke that, uh, in a race I wanna pick off a few youngins, and they're all youngins, because I'm typically the oldest.

But anyway, so try to s- I, I, I'm very much in the moment. Uh, mostly when I'm running, in a race at least, I'm not listening to music typically or a, or an audiobook like I am when I train. I am really very much in the moment and focused on what I'm doing, my next footfall, my next meetup with my crew, what, what lies ahead in the next two or three miles.

so I'm, I'm very much focused on that, on the plan and trying to stick to it. so it's nothing too esoteric, Kush. That's, it's just kind of, like I said, staying on plan, being in the moment. 

Kush: Bob, did you feel pressure? Because one [00:18:00] is you came back here to find redemption. Second, you were aware that people were now following your story more closely.

Bob: Ye- yes, yes and no. I mostly the, I put the pressure on myself, again, knowing on paper that I should be able to do this, and, uh, certainly I didn't wanna let family and friends and, and others who were following me down by not finishing. and very honestly, I never thought for a moment that I wasn't gonna finish.

I mean, I absolutely was convinced that this was, that last July was my, my time, my year, my day to make it happen. I just really believe that, and a lot of that was reinforced by my very positive crew that, uh, that kept me believing. So yeah, I just, I, it's just one of those things where you somehow just know it's gonna happen.

I just felt it. And, so, and, and actually I think there was less pressure because of [00:19:00] that. I just had that level of confidence that I certainly don't always have when I go, go into a race, but I did last summer. 

Kush: Wow, a couple of things to unpack there. Okay. First is, first is, so were you the oldest person running this, that time?

Bob: Oh, yes, yes. 

Kush: You were. By far. Okay. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Kush: And, uh, what might have been, let's say, the next youngest person or maybe the, the average or the median age? Just trying to get a sense of the demographics surrounding you. 

Bob: I think David Jones from Tennessee was probably the next oldest, and I think he's in his early 70s maybe, 72-ish.

I'm not e- exactly sure, but he's in his, he's in his 70s. Uh, there weren't very many others in that age range, although I can't, uh, honestly tell you, uh, can't quite remember who everybody was. But typically there aren't a whole lot of people that are 70 or older. Uh, you do have a number of people in their 60s, people like Pamela Chapman Markle, who is remarkable in her [00:20:00] own right.

In fact, she just, I just saw her two weeks ago at my Keys 100 race, and she finished at age 70, the, her 11th start and 11th finish at Keys. So, she was there. Uh, she was probably 69, I guess, at the time. So there were people in their 60s, but not many of us, uh, 70 and above. 

Kush: Amazing, Bob.

It is so cool to hear about your level of confidence. you came back again. You thought you would not be back, but you were back. What is the secret to that 

Bob: I think it was, uh, knowing that when I got on that plane to head out to California, my training had been optimal. Again, I didn't, I didn't have any injuries.

I was feeling good. Uh, I, I, I was able to stick to the training plan most of the time without too many conflicts or interruptions. So I just, I, I felt I was properly prepared. I knew my, my race plan, uh, was, was reasonable. all I was [00:21:00] trying to do was finish it, Kush. I wasn't trying to break any, I, I had no, uh, I, I wasn't trying to compete against anybody other than the clock.

That, that was the plan. Uh, and I had a best case, worst case kind of scenario of, uh, of how the pacing should go. Even to the... And our race plan even, even had when I could take my first break and take a nap, right? I mean, we were really very specific about all of these things, uh, w- with the caveat always that anything can happen where you might have to change, uh, do, modify the plan along the way.

But for the most part, everything fit, everything worked. The plan worked. And, uh, so I think the, the longer th- from the time the clock started,the more time went by during the race, the more confident I became because we were on plan. Things were working. I, I think it's just all of that together.

Kush: I just felt I was ready. Again, I know the course and the ra- like very, very well, so it wasn't, there were not, not gonna be any surprises along the way [00:22:00] in terms of the course itself. taken collectively, it just, uh, I just felt it was my time and it, and it, and it worked. The stars aligned, as I said, and everybody likes to have those days once in a while, Yeah. Yeah, you, you obviously came into the race super prepared, maybe the biggest... Yeah, unsurprisingly, the biggest secret to success is preparation and the confidence that brings. But again, this is such a long race and, like you said, you don't know how it is going to unravel, how your body is going to react on that particular day.

Bob: Yeah. 

Kush: Can you maybe talk about one or two moments which were the most challenging, uh, during the race? It could be, it could be maybe the middle of the day, it could be something else where you felt you were truly tested 

Bob: Yeah. My, uh, my back tends to become a problem, uh, in many races. It became a huge problem in 2022, which is why I was unable to [00:23:00] finish within the allowable time.

And if anybody's seen that video, you see how I was bent over in half and I couldn't stand up. I mean, it was insane. I've, I've had, I've had races before where I've gotten the dreaded lean, but that wasn't so much a lean to the side as it was a forward bend at 90 degrees . It was... I'm looking at the ground.

I can't... I literally would stop every, every sh- little while and, and straighten up just so I could, get my body straight. But as soon as I started moving again, my back wouldn't let me ke- continue upright. So, uh, I knew that that was, it was always possible that I could have a back issue.

As much as I work on core strength, it, it could have happened. So, uh, the first concern was when I went through Panamint Valley and that heat was really very intense, radiating back off the road. That was a concern, but by, literally by just putting some cover, uh, some pants on, a cover on, that sort of resolved the most of the, of that issue.

The [00:24:00] next problem became just, or the concern became, what's, how's my back gonna do? And when I got to about 100 miles or so, it started bothering me again, but nowhere near like it was in 2022. Uh, so I had a little bit of a forward lean, a little bit of a problem. Lisa gave me a technique that helped me a little bit by walking, clasping my hands behind my back, which tended to push me upright.

And so a lot of my climb Mount Whitney, that last 13 miles uphill, was actually walking with my hands clasped behind my back and that, that helped me. So the big concern was my potential for my back to go out. Uh, and while it was a little bit of an issue, certainly not, uh, debilitating as it had been three years before, those were the...

And, and otherwise it was just keeping me on track with, food and electrolytes and all that, and that's where my crew came in. So, uh, yeah, that's pretty much the story. 

Kush: That video is powerful, Bob, and yeah, we'll put a link [00:25:00] to that little clip of yours on those last few miles where you are indeed Giving the race your all.

You are bent over, and most of us would have stopped, and you kept going. W- what is that secret, Bob, to your toughness? 

Bob: I, I, I really don't know the answer to that one. I wasn't in a lot of pain. I just couldn't straighten up. and I wasn't having any, uh, any mental issues at that point. In fact, the medical director for the race, walked alongside me for a while to make sure I was lucid and, and I was.

I mean, that, that, that wasn't the problem at all and because of... A- and I wasn't in a lot of pain, and I knew that it was, it, uh... W- when I started up Mount Whitney, I had plenty of time to finish the race. The further I got up that 13-mile stretch to the finish line, the slower the pace became, and at one point I really couldn't move forward very much anymore.

but I still knew there was a shot at finishing, and [00:26:00] even when the 48-hour clock came and went, I was still close. I, I mean, it took me 17 more minutes. I was close enough where it made no sense not to make it that extra, whatever it was, half mile or whatever the distance was at that point. So I just, I just finished it up.

But at the end of the day, I knew this was not something that was going to be a permanent injury. I don't have a death wish and I don't, uh, wanna become crippled by, overextending, and I, I really didn't feel that that was gonna be a problem. The fact is, I was able to, by the time we get back down to Lone Pine after the race was over, I was able to stand up straight, and the next day I was fine.

it, uh, it was muscular, not, nothing, nothing structural. 

Kush: Bob, how did you know that this was not going to be some longer-lasting injury? Was something like that something that had happened before to you and you had recovered from it? Because, , the honest fact is that we get older, even myself, and you start thinking that or overthinking, because sometimes [00:27:00] those, th- those things do become Injuries or things that one has to then keep accounting for in one's physical practice?

Bob: Yeah, it's a good question. I, over the last few years, my ba- I have had more issues with my back than I had earlier in life. And, uh, never anything that extreme, but it... But I can tell when my back is bothering me and, and that it, it, it, and it's... The message it's sending is that it's musc- it's muscle related.

And, even though that was a much more extreme case of a back problem, I j- I just didn't feel it was significantly different in, in, in what was going on than what I'd experienced before. And the, the older I'm, the older I get, the more bad days I have out there when I'm training or racing.

it isn't, uh, it isn't always as much fun. I'm not as resilient. My body isn't as resilient. training isn't always quite as much fun, and, uh, uh, I don't do the miles I used to. I don't, uh, I don't run in terms of the run-walk mix. I don't run [00:28:00] as much as I used to. but I'm still running, but just, it's, uh, more walking, less, less running than it had been.

So yes, aging absolutely has its, its downside , uh, its impact. But somehow I just knew that, uh, it, it... Kush, it wasn't something new. It was something more extreme, but it wasn't something new. Mm-hmm. So I, I guess that's really what it was. I just, I just somehow knew that I, I was gonna be able to recover from that, and that it wouldn't be a permanent s- situation.

Kush: That makes sense that, yes, it wasn't some brand-new flare-up. It was just a more painful version of an existing, uh, physical situation that you've worked through. you had Marshall as part of your crew, and I spoke with Marshall on the podcast earlier, and I also wrote... read his wonderful book.

And Marshall speaks very candidly about how some of his, some of him pushing himself to the extreme may have caused some long-lasting [00:29:00] damage. 

Bob: Yes. 

Kush: And have you ever had any of those fears yourself, given how you have pushed yourself over these last several years?

Bob: no, not really. I, I, unless, I don't know that that's really the great, right way to explain it. I've had some races where I've had to drop. For example, in March, just a couple months ago, I was in China running the Mount Ailageng Ultra, which I had done 10 years ago and completed. and the version that I ran was a 77 mile, uh, 77 mile, uh, race, and these are, uh, these are mountain...

It's a beautiful nature preserve in southwestern China near the Myanmar border, uh, eastern Himalaya, and, uh, very, very steep, very technical ups and downs that I finished 10 years ago. I did not finish this time. I, I was unable to really properly train, and 10 years later, my body just wasn't as resilient, that, it, I [00:30:00] couldn't just rely on my core trained body and mind and, I got about 40 kilometers in and I realized that, it was going to be too difficult to continue on those pretty treacherous trails, and I didn't want to take a ch- I did-- first of all, I, I realized there was no way I'm gonna, was gonna be able to finish.

My heart said, "Go for it," my mind said, "No, you're done." So I try not to be stupid about these things either, and that, there were some very narrow ledges where you had to be really careful, uh, you didn't want to fall off a cliff. and so that was a small part of it, and, uh, I just...

There, there's an example of one where I did not push myself to the point of potential injury or worse. and, I think we all have to be, end of the day, try to be sensible about, about we, what's realistic for us. And for me, I live in flat Florida. There are no hills. There really are no trails.

it's really hard to train for anything other than a road race here. So I try to pick my races, uh, realistically, [00:31:00] and also knowing what my likely pace would be for a race, pick races with cutoffs that I c- feel I can, I can manage. it's all of a piece. You're right. As you age, you, your training's different, uh, and you have to, train f- train ap- age appropriately, race appropriately, and pick your races carefully.

And if you do that, you're probably gonna enjoy yourself and do just fine. 

Kush: Bob, wow. sounds like you have learned to really listen to your body. Of course, you were in China in a place very different than where you normally train, and the circumstances of that particular day were different again than your last run there a decade ago.

And I know there are pe- people listening, and I think, I mean, I will be bold enough to say that a lot of us, we actually feel we actually fall a lot shy of what our bodies and our minds can do because of, let's call it [00:32:00] not being trained, let's call it fear, let's call it uncertainty. But it feels like you've found this knowledge about learning your rhythm, ...

So are there some simple practices, Bob, 

Is there something that we can learn from you there? 

Bob: All right, an example. this past weekend, I was up in the Catskills, and when I'm there, I have a favorite little mountain trail that I like to train on when I'm there.

It's actually like a, a double wide jeep road. There's a, fire tower at the top of this mountain, so the vehicles have to be able to get up there to track it. But, uh, to, uh, s- uh, support and maintain this thing. It's about two and a quarter miles up, 1,400 feet of elevation gain, which isn't huge, but it's, has its steep spots for sure, and it's very, it's very much northeastern Granite Mountain territory, so it's a lot of rock that you're having to, work yourself over or around, and be very careful that you don't fall.

And [00:33:00] so for me, when I was a little younger, uh, not too many years ago, I would bomb down those kinds of trails, but not anymore. Because all, I don't have the confidence, uh, I don't have the foot speed, uh, my eyesight isn't as good, and all it would take would be to catch a toe one time, and I could, uh, really hurt myself.

again, trying to be realistic about what at this point in my life is reasonable for me to attempt to do. And doesn't mean I'm, it doesn't mean I don't make mistakes and make an error in judgment, but I, I try to be, uh, cognizant. So that, that is an example. Like I said, a couple months ago when I was in China, I knew when it was time to quit even though I, no one likes to DNF, and that sure as heck applies to me.

But that was the right thing to do at that particular time. I just, I was hoping to get out to California to do some training before that race, and I was never able to get out there to the mountains, so I just didn't have any real good appropriate training, for that particular race. So yeah, I, it's It's, it's just, I [00:34:00] guess I've been doing this for long enough now where I kind of know what makes sense for me and, I, I try to pick those things that will work.

And I hated to the DNF in China, there, there's always another race. There's always, uh, you, you go for things in life and whether it's, whether it's running or not, whatever the challenge is, there's, there's always another job. There's always another entrepreneurial opportunity if you're so inclined.

There's always another house. There's always another relationship. I, there... Life goes on, and, uh, the fact that you have, something of a failure, whether it's a race or in some other aspect of life, men have- don't have to be a runner, uh, one failure doesn't end your life or end your opportunities for more life.

And, uh, that always been, uh, I've always been an optimist. It's always been true for me that there's always another story to be told and to be experienced and,it's how I live my life. 

Kush: Beautiful and powerful, Bob, because not only [00:35:00] that, sometimes one can DNF something and stop something and feel completely crushed.

But what one might feel at that given moment, like in your case, you thought you would not do that race again, but here you are, and you came back and found redemption. So I guess the lesson is, one doesn't know. if one just continues in the process, one doesn't know where life might take us and might surprise us.

Going back to just the last part of that race, that stretch up to Whitney Portal, I mean, that's kind of the, the crux. and that's where things became really hard for you that time. You did not finish.

You DNF'd, and yes, you were carrying the training and the confidence. How did those last few miles feel like? The... I saw a video of you at the end of the race, and [00:36:00] you look so fresh. So did those last few miles indeed feel that fresh,

Bob: Yeah. Well, it, it was,it's 13 miles, and it's really steep uphill.

and so you're out there for a few hours, and, uh, a lot can happen during that period. So as my back started bothering me a little bit going up that hill, of course my first thought was, "Oh, no, not again." And then I realized that, now, this is... I'm not having anywhere near the kind of issues with my back as I had the last time, and this, this little technique that Lisa showed me actually was helpful.

And I also knew I had lots and lots of time. So, uh, I... It gave me the confidence to keep moving at a reasonably decent clip, and I actually finished with three hours to spare. And, uh, so it was like, I think I'd mentioned earlier, I had a best case, worst case game plan, and it was kind of the best case, as it turned out.

you have those little niggling moments when you're not so sure that, uh, y- you've got a problem that you may have trouble overcoming, [00:37:00] but, uh, they were minor, relatively speaking. And again, I, I knew the biggest issue, if I was going to have one, would be my back, and it was, it was...

It behaved itself reasonably well. So yeah. And as, of course, as I got right up to the finish line, then it was all exhilaration. I mean, it was just... A- and there was a lot of great people would just cheer me on, and it, it was just a lot of fun. So yeah, I felt great right there at that finish. Uh, five minutes later, maybe not so much, but yeah, right there at that finish line it was terrific.

Kush: Yes, you were so confident, you were so strong going to the finish. But was there maybe still some disbelief that you had achieved that, honestly, ma- many people might have thought was impossible? 

Bob: Yeah, there was a l- a l- certainly a little bit of that. But I've been thinking about this for a long time.

the, the person that held the record as the oldest finisher was a Brit, whose name was Jack Denness, who completed the race in 2010, when you still had [00:38:00] 60 hours to finish the race. Jack was 75, and he finished the race in, uh, 59 hours and 12 minutes, I think it was. It was just under the, under the...

And I was at the finish line that year with a lot of people welcoming him, him in. So- 

Kush: Wow ... 

Bob: I, I had, that was always in the back of my mind for a lot of years. And as I got older, and I thought, I wonder if I can do this." Then, of course, the, that, that year was, that was the last year you had 60 hours, and then, then it became 48.

So by definition, I had to finish at least 12 hours faster than Jack in order to be able to break the record. And everything was geared towards, uh, towards that, that, that clock, that finish. Again, I just, I just felt it in my bones. I knew it was p- gonna, gonna be possible, and the closer I got to that finish line, the more I was convinced that, yeah, this was, this was my day.

uh, I don't know, Kush, I never really had severe doubts at any point along the way that I would finish that day. I, I, I'd like to think it's [00:39:00] not a over-the-top egoism, but confidence based on experience out there, and the quality of my training from Lisa Smith Batchen, very frankly. Uh, all of that, contributed 

Kush: Bob, you finished and yes, made, made the record books.

I mean, it is remarkable that the last person who did this, the last oldest person, took... Like, you shaved off like, like, let's say, like more than 20? they did it in under 50 hours, and you did it in like 35 hours. So you shaved like 33% off their time in a race- It's about 

Bob: 14 hours, I think.

Yeah. 

Kush: Yeah, 14, yeah, 14 hours. So you sh- you shaved that. Like, you, you... Transformative. Transformative on like honestly what we believe that humans are capable of. And then all this attention around this accomplishment, Bob, has it changed how you think about yourself at all? 

Bob: [00:40:00] Wow, good question. I hear from people very frequently about how I've inspired them or their grandmother to get off the couch and start moving, or, or do something. And that is extremely important to me and, is one of the motivations to keep doing this stuff. And,it's almost become a responsibility, and I, I feel that way about it.

which is one of the things that, that pushes me to keep doing these things. Like, next month I'm... Not next month, two weeks, three weeks, I'm going out to, going to Alaska to run the Denali 135. it's, uh, it, it may or may not be my last big race, but, uh, I'm really excited about going out to Alaska where I've never been, uh, and running along the Denali Highway with some friends.

It should be really a lot of fun. So, uh, but... And I don't know why I'm off on that tangent, but, you know

I do feel, I do feel a responsibility to the extent that people are paying attention to what I'm doing, continue to, uh, [00:41:00] as long as I'm able, to continue to do these things and, uh, to impact people in a positive way. And if that can continue, then, I mean, what could be greater than that as a, a way to live your life?

Kush: I was gonna ask if that responsibility rests light or rests heavy on your shoulders. 

Bob: A combination of each. Uh, some days I think to myself- ... espe- especially when I've had a really hard training day and I really am not loving what I'm doing, and thinking to myself, maybe it's time to retire." So that, that's a heavy day.

Uh, but most of the time, no, it's, uh... 'Cause I still love what I'm doing. And yeah, I, my friends are my running friends. I, I don't have any friends my age. I mean, I, nobody's doing this crazy stuff, right? so I, my whole world is built around running and racing, and, the people and the friends I've made over the years doing these things.

And, as a race director, of course, that's all... So my, my, my work is my sport, is my hobby, is my, is my [00:42:00] passion, right? Which is, how many people are blessed enough to be able to say that? So it's mostly a lighter sense of responsibility rather than a heavier one, at least at this point.

We'll see what happens in another year or two. 

Kush: I can't imagine any kind of extrinsic responsibility pushing you to- Do these things more than what you already want to do them, sure. Y- yes, I mean, you take that as some kind of a calling, but you are certainly very driven on the inside. 

Bob: Bob, one thing that you said a moment ago, I don't wanna forget that about how the company you keep and the people around you are, are different than Company of people your age.

Kush: I believe that, I feel that at 48, in my early 30s, I was climbing with people who were in their early 30s, and now that I'm 48, I'm still [00:43:00] climbing somehow with people who are still in their early 30s. And it's not something by, it's not something by, like, intent. It's just, just some people have moved on in different ways.

So I'm curious, do you ever end up in the company of people your age in some dimension? And I'm curious, like, how do you think you relate to them or they relate to you? 

Bob: I, I just left, uh, New Y- my family up in New York State, where m- m- most of my cousins are around my age. So if I want to, uh, spend time with people my own age and who can relate to my experiences growing up in the world of the '60s and '70s and '80s and so on, I find my family.

That's that's mostly it. because most people I fi- I, I meet and, uh, have conversation with my age who are not runners or family, are people, let's say from the business world, uh, normal life, they're professionals of one kind or another. I [00:44:00] started, I was a mortgage banker years ago.

I left my-- I left mortgage banking and became a race director almost 20 years ago. So I've been away from the typical American, uh, uh, career and work path and so on and workplace for 20 years. So I find myself not having a huge amount in common with most people that are my age or close to it, some of whom may be retired, of course, but, uh, I've just been away from that for a long time.

So w- where do I gravitate? Uh, where am I most comfortable to sit down and have a beer with somebody? Somebody who's a runner. And while the, the, the age of, of ultra-marathoners has also gotten older, people, uh, it was a sport where... Actually, when I started doing this, it was mostly older. Now you have younger people d- doing the race, running ultras and much faster and everything else.

But people are still sticking with it into their 60s and 70s. my friends are running friends. That's where, that's where they are. [00:45:00] And, uh, uh, most of the people who are not runners and who I know, uh, or meet, it's a relatively superficial relationship. We wind up with not a heck of a lot in common.

That's basically what happens. 

Kush: Bob,you left your prior career in corporate America, uh, a couple decades ago, which, which was s- which is similar to how the typical American or just human life plays out, right? You work for decades, and you hit a certain age, and then you, you leave that, and you start doing quote-unquote "retirement things."

But you did something, again, a little bit different. So until then, maybe your trajectory was similar to others, your peers. You took up a whole new profession, and you went all in on running, and you became a race director, and I think that likely gives you this fascinating perspective as well. A- and I wanna come at it in a couple of ways.

So the first is What do you think taking on [00:46:00] this entirely new career gave you in your 60s? when again, you had done, like you had proven yourself in the ways of the world, but here you took on this new thing. So yeah, what, what did it bring to you? 

Bob: Well, there's been a huge amount of satisfaction over the years in bringing our sport to so many, so many new people.

So when we started, my first race that I created was the Keys 100, and, the first year was 2008. We actually, five of us ran the k- the, across the islands of the Florida Keys in 2007 to see if it was viable as a race opportunity, and we thought it was, so the next year, we created this race. And I said, "Okay, I'll be the race director," having absolutely no idea what I was doing.

But we sort of figured it out. And what's happened o- And because there were no races at all in s- no ultras in South Florida, and not that many in the state, but there were none in South Florida. So we created this opportunity for people to be introduced to the sport of ultra [00:47:00] running. And over the years, thousands and thousands of people have run this race, and it's been one of my great sources of satisfaction.

Gratification is introducing the sport to all these new people and expanding, uh, expanding the, uh, the opportunity. And of course, now there are, 15 races every weekend, but that wasn't the case before. So, we had this three weeks ago, two, three weeks ago was, uh, the 18th annual Keys 100. We had 1,100 runners, so from all over the world, all over the country.

That's really, really satisfying and gratifying as a race director to, uh, to have that many people enjoy the sport. Plus, of course, support crews and everybody else that's exposed to it along the way. 

Kush: just, you could have just, become a very avid runner, right?

That itself could have been a very, uh, satisfying and deep process of taking up running at this intensity in your 60s. But you chose to go to a different level, and you chose to start [00:48:00] organizing, and I'm curious if that in turn influenced your own running journey? Do you think you would have been as active as an athlete, as a runner, had you not also...

Yeah, I'm just curious, how does, how do these two lives- 

Bob: Yeah ... race 

Kush: direction and running? 

Bob: I think very much that by having created a number of these races over the years and continuing to produce them, that it's kept me very active as a runner as well.



Bob: there's no way to know, of course, but it's unlikely that I would've continued this intensively as, as a sport, uh, as my hobby, had I not also spent, all year full time, uh, immersed in it, uh, and in touch with people, friends. Uh, no, I think it, it has, it's been a big boon in that sense to my own running career, if you will.

uh, I don't mean to be totally, sound like I'm being totally altruistic either, because, I, uh, I always joked, and still do, that you become a race- when you become a race director, you [00:49:00] take a vow of poverty. But, there's a, there's a little income that's generated from this, and it's income I needed, very frankly.

So I mean, I... It's my work. So part of it is generating a few bucks to put, uh, Three Wishes cereal on my counter in the morning. But mostly it's, uh, just that, the wonderful opportunity, to watch people cross that finish line when they've done their first ultra, and just the j- the joy on their face is it's just, it's just priceless.

It just really is. So yeah, it's been, it's been a great ride. I've really enjoyed it a lot. 

Kush: Bob, again, yeah, this l- gives you this fascinating perspective, these races you organize probably bring to you these moments Everyday moments, moments mundane, and moments that go further. So what have you learned from your vantage point as a race director about, for example, the people who come to your races?

Can you [00:50:00] talk to us about that for a second on what kinds of people surprise you the most? 

Bob: Well, good question. I'll talk about Keys 100, 'cause that's my biggest race, and, uh, i- in, in that one, and also my other race in December, Daytona 100, we also have a relay component. So we have a hundred-mile, uh, in Keys, we have a hundred-mile individual race, a 50-miler, and a 50 kilometer.

We also have a hundred-mile team relay and a 50-mile team relay. So the hundred-mile team relay is six people who create their own game plan. They don't have to run the same number of miles or the same number of legs, and that's, that's part of the fun of it, u-u-unlike the Hood to Coast model, where you're, you have prescribed distances and prescribed legs.

And what we've discovered over the years is that these people who are running these relays, uh, frequently become,v-very inspired by the, by the ultra runners that they are running alongside during this hundred miles of crossing [00:51:00] islands, getting from Key Largo to Key West, and it sorta creates that next generation of ultra runners.

Uh, it's happened so many times where they s-- I, I get, I get the feedback. I said-- "That guy was running," and they said, "If he can do it, I'll bet you I can do it too." And that's what tends to happen, and it's incredibly satisfying to see that, and that's, that was probably my biggest surprise, where you have, uh, typically people who run 10Ks or half marathons, and they decide to get involved in this ultra distance relay, and from there, they're exposed to the sport of ultra running and decide to give it a shot themselves.

So it's li- it's life-changing in many ways, and that's been, that's been a really fun thing to witness over the years. 

Kush: Bob, that is really insightful, and it just makes me think of that, that silent power of taking that first step. Yeah. Because you sign up and, I mean, even a relay in a hundred mile race is a lot of running.

Yep. But it could be maybe doing a small [00:52:00] part of a larger marathon. I mean, just a simple side story in my family. My, my father, who's 74 now, he just started getting into running the last couple of years, and it- Wow ... he does the same run walk thing, and it started with signing up for 5Ks, then 10Ks, and then he did a half marathon last year, and now I think he's shooting for a full marathon.

So I think- 

Bob: Wonderful ... 

Kush: I think him joining and just finding community and finding inspiration that you can't if you're within the confines of your house or the confines of your devices, but I think that energy, I, I think is powerful, and you are out there creating that energy. You are enabling people to go beyond what they thought was possible.

I wanna ask one, like, slightly funny question, which there are these people who started out as simple runners, maybe small distances, and then [00:53:00] they go on to do ultra-running, and- I think ultra runners or just ultra athletes are misunderstood. If they hear you speak, they will know that you are not some crazy person.

So what do you find when you talk to people? What do people misunderstand about you, Bob? 

Bob: Well, good question. Um, well, Yeah. Well, I think it's, I mean, they, you, they always joke ini- initially about how you have to be crazy to do this stuff, and of course my response is always, "Yeah, it's a prerequisite," right?

But when you start talking to them, you try to relate, I try to relate what I do in running to anything else in life, uh, that I, I choose this particular challenge. I didn't, I didn't stand up, turn off the TV, and decide I'm gonna go run 100 miles. It, it, it was something that evolved. Somebody told me about this, a race called an ultramarathon, and I became fascinated with the idea, and I thought, if somebody else can do it, maybe I can, too."

But it doesn't have to [00:54:00] just be about running. It can be about anything in life, any challenge that, uh, you suddenly find yourself discovering as a possibility that entices you, and then the question becomes, are you going to go for it or not? My father was a, a working guy. He was a printer, and, he spent the last, oh, I don't know, couple of decades of his life working actually, uh, as a printing clerk on Capitol Hill.

But he was, he was part of the Government Printing Office. But most of his life, he wanted to open a small breakfast and lunch restaurant, and he never did. He never went for it, and always regretted the fact that he didn't take that leap, and it was difficult. You know, he was married, had a couple of kids.

Uh, there wasn't a lot of money to fall back on. Nevertheless, he never went for it, and I never wanted to be in a position where I would look back on my life and say that, " Wow, I, always wanted to do something and never took a chance to do it." [00:55:00] And, in my case it was running. In his case it was a coffee shop, But,pick your poison. And, I think the thing about me that I try to make people understand is I just happen to choose running. But for me it's, not, not being afraid to take a chance. and,you've got a dream, go for it if you possibly can figure out a way to give it a shot.

Kush: Well said. Yes, well said. Yes, and I think it's that, I think it starts with having a dream and, and then taking steps towards accomplishing that dream, and look at, look at where that's taken you. I want to... Okay, I usually have the section which I call the ageless section of the podcast, and I still have some questions for you that, uh, I am, I'm excited to ask you about, Bob, one habit that that's helped you age well that the rest of us may not know about 

Bob: Well, starting with I believe in preventive medicine, so I've always been careful [00:56:00] to have testing done at appropriate stages in my life.

My father died of prostate cancer, so I started having prostate cancer testing very early. In fact, I found that I had prostate cancer 20 years ago and had surgery to solve that problem, and 20 years later, here I, here I am. discovered about three years ago that I had a little bit of, a little bit of blockage in my arteries, and the cardiologist suggested that I leave my typical, of a moderate, but typical American diet behind and become a vegan.

And I went ahead and changed my, uh, diet along with my wife's tremendous support to, We actually be- kind of became followers of a cardiologist whose name is Caldwell E- Esselstyn, who's, you may or may be familiar with, whose, uh, whose diet is a stage, step beyond veganism. you don't eat oils, and it, it's ve- it's pretty strict diet, which we've mostly stayed with over the years.

That's really helped a lot. and, so pick an area. I try to stay on top [00:57:00] of any potential medical issue and deal with it right away. , Certainly my, my running and, and cross-training and, training in general has helped me, retain a, I'm physically strong. I can still move up and down the stairs.

it's probably the healthiest thing I ever did was start running ultramarathons because of the training that I've continued to do, and the strength that it's given me. My weight is very much under control. I don't have weight issues. so I've been very lucky. My, good genes, I suppose. But also, again, not burying my head in the sand when it comes to any potential medical issue.

Get on it, fix it as best you can, deal with it, be proactive about it, and, uh, stay active physically you got a lot of good years ahead of you. At least that's the way it's worked out for me. 

Kush: Excellent, Bob. Uh, super helpful. I want to ask you a little bit about how you go about learning about what's going on with your body at a given time.

The fact that there was prostate [00:58:00] cancer in your family probably galvanized you into taking early action. 

Bob: You bet. 

Kush: So that, that, that you did. But I am curious, are there any tools that you utilize in helping you, again, stay on top of your health and your metrics as you're training and as you're recovering?

Bob: I think as an ultramarathoner and as somebody living in the 21st century, it's probably sacrilegious to say no. it's, it's somewhat old school. I mean, I'm, I'm, uh, I pay attention to biofeedback to what my body's telling me. But, I see, I see doctors on a regular enough basis.

I'm tested enough regularly,blood tests and whatever it takes. I've got a, I've had a, an issue with my lungs for a long, long time, so I have s- CAT scans every six months to a year. things that could potentially be an issue, I try to stay on top of with the help of the medical team that my doctors that support me.

Kush: How often, Bob, do you get physicals done? How often do you get [00:59:00] a blood panel done? And are there certain things that you are doing which are beyond, let's say, what the average American is doing in your age group? 

Bob: Not really. I think every, uh, I try and I, probably every six months I have a blood panel done.

I, I'll have a physical roughly every six months. Uh, again, because of, the arterial issue, which isn't severe, but it, partly because I addressed it right away. And, and the lung issue, which is something that is a concern, 'cause when I was a kid, I smoked. I smoked for 10 years, which was, pretty stupid, but I did.

And, it's come back to haunt me over the, over the years, and, uh, so I stay on top of that with my pulmonologist. Uh, again, don't ignore something if it looks like it could be a potential issue, so we're very much aware if... And if the, if it devel- develops into something more serious, we catch it early, which is always a better chance of dealing with it.

So, uh, I'm not doing anything unusual, but paying attention to whatever maladies, I have to [01:00:00] deal with, and I do visit- My doctor regularly, get checked up regularly, blood work done regularly. And,it's really as simple as that. So yeah, I don't, I've got the smartwatch, but I don't use 90% of the stuff that it would help me with if I chose to really monitor everything.

I just don't. And, it's, it has worked for me okay 

Kush: What about a recovery tool or modality? I mean, this volume of running can be so harsh on the body if not taken care of properly. So, uh, do you have s- a couple of, uh, tools or some routines that you swear by? 

Bob: y- yes and no. One of the, one of the things that's been very interesting, in b- being coached by Lisa, she doesn't believe...

Well, first of all, again, her training is quite age specific, and she has, she coaches athletes of all ages and sizes and shapes and abilities. But, she doesn't believe in huge mileage. So I'm not doing 100 mile weeks. I [01:01:00] think probably the biggest weeks I ever have preparing for a race are maybe 70 or 75 miles, and there aren't very many of those.

So I'm not overly training. I have at least one recovery day a week, and sometimes two recovery days a week, to give my body time to do exactly that, to recover. And there's cross-training involved. It's not just running. A lot of, working on my core, which is vital. The longer the distance, the more it is about a strong core, which in my case also helps my back.

no real secret. It's just training that is, uh, appropriate for my age and condition and ability. it's a balance that has worked for me. 

Kush: Bob, we don't have time to go into all your training routines, but maybe one or two things that you're doing, Lisa has you do, which have an outsize impact.

Yeah. I've been, notoriously bad at stretching, for example. I've tried yoga, and it doesn't always work for me. So, uh, stretching is important, but on [01:02:00] my own I probably wouldn't do it, and I do a lot of it.

Bob: So Lisa offers a, a class twice a week for an hour that's a combination of strength training, some aerobic stuff, and a lot of s- stretching and balance work. So for example, today, the race I'm doing in Alaska in a couple of weeks, involves some hills, not as m- not as much as, uh, a lot of the races I do, but there's some climbing, and there's very little opportunity here other than climbing up and over, uh, the 17th Street Causeway, and, and that bridge at the top is 75 feet above sea level.

So there just isn't a lot of hill work possible. So one of the techniques is to pull a tire And by pulling a tire behind you with a 10, 12 foot rope attached to your waist, you're creating drag. it does, it works the back of your legs. It works your legs totally, but particularly the back of your legs as if you were climbing hills.

Uh, a technique I've been using a lot. So this morning I went out and I pulled a tire for an hour, came back inside and turned, on a video [01:03:00] of one of her classes and did a class for an hour, which included stretching and,and balance work as well as, as lifting. And that combination, and so I didn't do any real running at all today, but I got a lot of work in and it was all, it was all good and it all helped strengthen me and get me ready to attack those hills when I get up to Alaska in a couple of weeks.



Kush: Bob, when it comes to some of your cross-training, and again, like recovery maintenance techniques, what may have been the biggest change from your training from when you were 60 or 70?

what has been the biggest change that you have added or removed to be effective where you are today? 

Bob: Well, on the running side of it, it's adding, it's adding much more run... uh, excuse me, much more walking. So, uh, decreasing the amount of running, increasing the amount of walking. And,it took a [01:04:00] while to figure out what was gonna work for me.

about six years a- six or se- seven years ago now, I ran, uh, one of, uh, Laz- Lazarus R- Lakes races, a Race for the Ages. I don't know how familiar you are with ARFTA, a Race for the Ages, but it's a fixed time race. but instead of having 12 hours or 24 hours or 48 hours to see how far you can go, the number of hours that you have is equal to your age.

So the idea is somebody who's 50 has 50 hours to see how far they can go. Somebody who's 70 has 70 hours to see how far they can go. Now, they're not as fast as the 50-year-old, but they have more time. So it equalizes, in theory, the older, slower people with the younger, faster people. That's the idea. And I decided to run that race.

I was 74 at the time, and I thought, I, I felt on paper I had a shot at winning the race. It just made sense, but I wasn't sure how to balance running and walking. And a- around that time, I realized if, if I was realistic [01:05:00] about it, I was probably walking about half a race and running about half the race.

And I decided I wanted, I did not wanna do, like, run until you can't run anymore and then do a death march to the finish line. So I started experimenting, and I actually found, Kush, that if I walk-- excuse me, if I ran one minute and walked one minute, that that would actually work for me. And even though that sounds like a very fast transition, I found that during the running portion, I'd actually run a little faster, and I was breaking up the muscle movement, and it really worked.

And I did that one-minute run, one-minute walk for 230 miles. That entire 74-hour period, I was still doing it at the end. It really worked for me. 

Kush: Wow. 

Bob: So that was a discovery and a change that I've used since then. I, I, I, and I actually did win that race, and that was, it worked for me. So, a- again, a run-walk sequence is not, uh, anything new.

I certainly didn't invent it, but, uh, finding out what works for [01:06:00] you is, is really the key. And, uh, I'm still doing that. Now, when we go to, go up to Alaska, more than likely, it'll be more like a minute run, two-minute walk, because of the distance, and I'm just not able to run as much as I used to. It's just a matter of fact.

So, but I'm hopeful that as we approach 100 miles and beyond, I'll still be doing a one-two sequence if, uh, if I'm in the kind of shape I hope I'll be in come two, three weeks from now. 

Kush: Wow, that strategy sounds astute and you have it somewhat dialed now by being able to plan for the right intervals and the right calibration between the running and the walking.

And it seems like it's actually made you faster, Bob, because for just the Badwater finish, you finished Yeah. You, you beat your time. You successfully finished. After coming back to it, did you employ the same run, walk? 

Bob: Yeah, 

Kush: I did. Uh, the minute on, the minute off? [01:07:00] Okay. 

Bob: Right. Now, uh, uh, uphills I mostly walk.

Downhills I try to mostly run. Not totally, uh, 'cause you don't wanna blow out your quads either on a long downhill, but it's, it's more for the, more for f- for the flats is really where you do the 1-1 or 1-2 or 4-1 or whatever your poison is. so yeah, so you've, you gotta be modified for the hills.

But yeah, I still do the same sort of thing and, and I train to it as well. 

Kush: What about time in the weight room? 

Bob: Yeah, well, well, her class also involves a lot of weight work. Now, rather than, heavy weights that you, you know, you, uh, you lift until you lift to failure, which is typically where you're trying to build muscle, you're typically doing more reps with lighter weights, building strength in her classes, right?

So typically, one day a week, I'll go to the gym where I'll do a little bit of heavy lifting and I don't do a lot, but I'll do a little bit. Certain things that I'm not, I'm not getting out in the class, I will do. And then I'll do, uh, a lot of, of [01:08:00] aerobic machines. So I'll do a StairMaster, I'll do a stationary bike, I'll do a, an elliptical maybe.

really just depends on what, on the given day. But so I do some, uh, aerobic cross-training at the gym, and I'll do some lifting as well. But really most of my lifting n- these days, I mean, I used to go to the gym a lot more, uh, is, is with her class. I mean, it just, it really incorporates a lot of stuff and, uh, in an hour you can get a lot of work in.

so that's what I typically do. 

Kush: Bob, your running certainly seems to be astounding- Sure ... and you're improving, but do you notice a difference in the way you're recovering, maybe the weights that you are lifting? Again, the, the hard reality is that after a certain age, one is unable to build as much muscle.

Bob: Yeah. 

Kush: So can you speak a little bit about what's happening with your body and how you're trying to combat and, and move past? 

Bob: Again, you're, I'm just not as resilient as I once [01:09:00] was. I can't lift as much as I once did. You're, you're right, you, you're just not building a whole lot of muscle when you start getting beyond a certain age.

So I'm, I'm, I... What I'm trying to do is maintain as much as anything else. And the other thing is, by not pushing heavy weight, I'm minimizing the, the risk of injury from weightlifting, 'cause I don't want to do that either. so when I'm lifting, if something's bothering me, like, uh, this morning I had my, my right bicep was bothering me for some reason, making certain, movements.

So I stopped doing that movement. I just did, I did other things. I try to be very cognizant of what's going on to minimize the chance of injury. So again, I'm using mostly lighter weight, lots of reps, which is maintaining or building some strength. I'm not looking to build big biceps, 'cause that just ain't happening.

Uh, it's just not going to. Not... In my body type, it never did, but certainly at my age, no, it's, the likelihood of building a lot of muscle is, uh, really not there. So, maintain and, and [01:10:00] try as best you can to maintain your strength level and y- and, work through the fact that you're just not as resilient as you used to be.

Kush: Very, very helpful, Bob. Uh, it gives us a sense of what's behind the machine that powers you. A last few questions, What are you more grateful for now than when you were younger?

Bob: Well, I could, I really... The fact that I can continue doing the physical things and still have the mental acuity at, to do what I basically want to do at 81 years old, is a blessing and something that I could never have real- I never really even thought about how I would be at the age of 80 when I was younger.

You just, most people don't project out that far. And comparing it to my own parents and grandparents and, and, family of origin, uh, there was, there were very few people were doing the kinds of things we're doing now at, at our age. the [01:11:00] world has changed, there's no question about it.

So I'm most surprised by and thankful for the ability to continue to be as active as I am, uh, and, uh, uh, and be able to do things by myself, with my friends, with my wife. get on a plane and visit my kids whenever I want to. I'm physically able to do those things. an absolute, uh, just an absolute blessing.

It just, it's, uh, couldn't be more thankful. Good health. I mean, man, that's where it all starts, right there 

Kush: Bob, what excites you about the future? 

Bob: Well, Continuing to explore what the possibilities are for me as I age. continuing to travel, uh, to new places and,return to some of my favorite haunts, just to continue to be active in my life and, , to the extent as possible, continue to inspire some people to follow their own dreams and, uh, just because they reach a certain age or retire, doesn't mean your life stops [01:12:00] by any stretch of the imagination.

so I don't really have any specific new goal other than I've been really urged to write a book, so maybe that will happen if I ever find time. But otherwise, just more of the same, Kush. I just, uh, I love what I'm doing. My life is, couldn't be more fun and, uh, as long as my wife and I c- stay healthy and can continue to do these things, then that's exactly what we're gonna do.

Kush: Bob, has endurance sport changed your relationship with aging or even how you think about mortality? 

Bob: No question about it. as I think I mentioned earlier, I, I have no doubt in my mind that, , starting ultrarunning, starting running when I was, basically 60 years old, has made me and kept me healthier and more active than I could possibly otherwise have -been, , if I hadn't done these things.

I, I just- I'm absolutely convinced that, that that's the case. So I mentioned earlier, I've got, I've got some lung issues, for example. Uh, I'm doing things that, [01:13:00] uh, I shouldn't be able to do. I should not be able to run. I should not be able to run and walk the distances that I do. And the reason I'm able to do it is because of my level of fitness and the consistency of that fitness over 20-plus years now, that's...

I, I couldn't be more thankful for having fallen into this sport for a bazillion reasons. One of which is that very thing that, uh, at my age, I'm still able to do a lot of, uh, a lot of things that many others otherwise couldn't do. 

Kush: Bob, I'm just, I'm just visualizing how a visit to your physician goes.

I mean, I'm guessing at this point, your physicians probably know who you are. you have attained some notoriety. But are there things your physician finds when they're looking through your numbers, et cetera, that they are still amazed by that in some-- on one hand, you have had these health conditions and you are still able to [01:14:00] do these things which seem a little otherworldly 

Bob: Yeah, they d- they do sort of shake their heads.

I, I wish that some of my physicians were runners, but, uh, but a couple of them, uh, have been, but are not currently. Uh, one of them was a weightlifter, still does, still lifts a lot. So they kind of get it, but, most of them just sort of just, it's, I'm a one-off for most of them.

recently, actually when I was in China in March, we were staying at a place that it was a very nice hotel, but it also doubled as a training center for elite Chinese athletes. And the medical facility there was first rate, and they had, they, they offered all of us, the 10, 10 Americans who were there, to have certain testing done, including bone density testing and so on.

And I wound up finding out that, uh, I have a bone density issue. And when I came home, uh, we did bone, bone density study again to confirm I have osteoporosis, and my doctor was [01:15:00] flabbergasted that that was the case. but so here I am with one additional, uh, issue that I, I have to be careful about.

again, it was a head shaker. I, I don't know. It's just whatever the reason is that I'm, I, but I really do think continuing to stay fit, the running,the relatively minimal amount of weightlifting that I do, all of that is combined, has kept me physically able perhaps do more than, uh, the paperwork says I should be able to do.

Kush: Bob, I sometimes feel that all the testing modalities we are exposed to, I, I mean, sure, I think it mostly does us good, but once in a while, I think it might also do us some harm because we start obsessing over things that we did not know about. Funnily enough, last month, I got a DEXA scan done. Same thing, it's giving you all these, uh, all this information about your biomarkers, and in my case, everything seems to look great for my age, except my bone density is in [01:16:00] apparently the bottom 9% of their data.

So for my age group, I am, like, in the red zone, bottom 9%. Yeah. And again, I'm like, "So now I have this new reason for anxiety." yeah, the testing is well-intentioned, but I think it's not accounting for everything else that is going on with that person's life. Like, in your case, like, you have s- 

Bob: Yeah 

Yeah, certainly when it comes to a single test, absolutely. yeah, you've gotta look at the whole picture. I totally agree- Yes ... with you. Yes. And, and yet at the same time, probably not a bad idea to know that, your chances of an injury if you fall, or mine, is greater, the chance of breaking a bone is greater than somebody whose, whose numbers are at the other end of the scale.

not a bad thing to know, but you're right, you need to take the whole picture into account, not just one test. 

Kush: sure. Your, your, your chances might be getting hurt, or my chances of getting hurt might be greater if that bone density metric was taken in isolation, but maybe there are [01:17:00] ways we have strengthened everything else around it, around- Yeah

our musculature, around everything else. So anyway, no, you're right, it's, it's helpful information, but it's not the entire truth. 

Bob: For sure. 

Kush: And people are better off still taking that because I think most of us are not getting our vitals looked at and are not taking action. Again, maybe a small counterpoint.

Bob, just last question. If someone listening feels like they are too old, too broken down, or they're too late to begin again, what would you honestly tell them? 

Bob: the first thing I would tell them is that ultrarunning, which is what I do, is not everybody's cup of tea, and mo- moving, getting some exercise, uh, doesn't have to start or end with running, uh, at any, of any distance, It can be going out in your garden, outside in your yard and planting a garden, where you're bending down and standing up and doing some lifting and getting out in the fresh air. it can be, [01:18:00] it can be anything. It can go, be going for a walk with your grandkid, it can be saying to that grandchild of yours, "You know what?

Why don't we think about, let's train to do a 5K together that we can walk next Thanksgiving morning." pick something, it doesn't have to be extreme, that allows you to m- to get outside and actually start moving, whatever it is that you are interested in doing. 

Kush: Bob, I love it, and- Because I know that you seem to do well with a bit of pressure, can we apply a bit of gentle pressure and ask you to hurry along on that book of yours?

Because we cannot wait to read that book, Bob. So yes, please work on that book project because I would love to read that book, have you back on the podcast to talk about it next time we chat. 

Bob: well, you're very kind. I'll tell you, if my wife were in the room, 'cause she has been pushing me to write this book for...

and I just haven't been able to find time, she would probably give you [01:19:00] a big kiss because- Because you're pushing me like she does to try to take pen to pen- pen to paper. But thanks, Kush. We'll see. I, I hope to be able to do something here in the not too distant future. 

Kush: [01:20:00] [01:21:00]