Get These Sleep Habits Wrong After 50 - And You May Decline Faster | Dr. Martin Kawalski, Sleep Expert

Ageless Athlete Recording with Martin Kawalski
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Martin: [00:00:00] we have talked about a lot of different things in the show, but, sleep is sitting underneath almost everything, right? So before we get into some of the more specifics and practical things, why do we sleep?

hey, that, that's a, that's a great question. I'm, I'm glad you, , the, you recognize the importance of sleep. it's the absolute pillar. It's the foundation on which everything else is built. if you think of this Maslow's pyramid of needs,for longevity, I would say sleep is the layer one.

it's the time when our bodies rebuild. It's the time when all the gains from your gym sessions get installed. It's the time when all the processes consolidate and your memory shifts into long-term storage. It's the time when, our body repairs itself and, cleanses and, memories gets consolidated, emotions gets processed.

There's a [00:01:00] myriad of things going on. It's, it's absolutely critical. It's fascinating to see how sleep... sleep is very malleable across species. Not every species like, like hu- like humans, we... Not everyone needs eight hours, right? There, there's wonderful forms of sleep like, birds, migratory birds would sleep 10 seconds at a time.

When you have ducks sitting in a row, the first and the last duck would have one of its eyes open, checking for coming, incoming foxes, whereas the ones in the middle will be fully asleep. so like biology doesn't negotiate. It will find any way possible to give you the sleep advantage, but the sleep doesn't, but sleep itself doesn't always look the same way 

Kush: That is correct.

Humans are not the only species who rely on sleep. So what I'm hearing is that, sleep is more than just rest And there is- Definitely what is happening during sleep that most of [00:02:00] us don't appreciate?

Martin: that's a great question. I don't think there is a single answer. but, um, let's maybe start there. That why don't we define how sleep looks like? And then I can tell you a little bit about the unique characteristics, of what's going on when. first of all, think of sleep as not, not one consecutive block of eight hours.

I would say typically eight hours, 'cause, like, that's normally the, the recommended for most of us, say seven and a half, eight hours. And it's not- one fixed thing. It's the, it's a collection of usually 90-minute journeys, 90-minute cycles where you would progress from very shallow sleep, which in EEG, which is electroencephal- encephalography, uh, brainwaves, looks very close to being awake.

and then we will progressively go deeper and deeper and deeper into very high amplitude, very slow wave sleep. And what matters is, like, [00:03:00] when do we get each sleep? So throughout the eight hours of night, there are very specific times that I want you to be in your deep sleep. There are very specific times, periods when I want you to be in your light sleep.

There are times where I want you to be dreaming. And what happens when is critical. And for athletes, for instance, something that's, that's particularly important is Today everyone has a, has a wearable or two, and people tend to obsess about their deep sleep. that's something that I hear very often.

How do I get more deep sleep? And then why is it important? So I'll give you two things that stand out. During deep sleep, which typically happens during the first half of the night, two critical processes happen. Number one is this is when your brain disposes of all the waste. Our brains have unique systems that's called , a glymphatic system, which [00:04:00] means that it...

This is when it removes all the waste products, all the metabolites, all the misfolded proteins, that some of them are associated with neurodegenerative conditions. But the system pretty much exclusively, or at least majority of its activity happens during deep sleep. Like, if you- if your body doesn't get enough deep sleep, your glymphatic system does not operate optimally, and you're accumulating all the nasty things that you don't want to have in your brain.

The second thing that's, uh, critical, especially for all of us, but for, I think for athletes in particular, is the most, like, I think 70% of growth hormone release, which is critical for body repair, for muscle build- building, happens again in deep sleep. if you do- if you're not getting enough deep sleep, you're robbing yourself of those two critical things.

Like, first of all, your brain will not, will not get [00:05:00] rid of the waste products efficiently. Secondly, you are not getting enough, you're, you're robbing yourself of the body's ability to secrete growth, uh, growth hormone, um, which is critical. Anecdotally, maybe you've heard this from your grandmother, that children need to sleep a lot to be tall.

this was not some just, like, folk's tale. This is now we have the science. This is when, growth hormone gets released. This is so critical in,in, in children

Kush: Yes. maybe we can do a very quick zoom out moment. You touched on it. Can you describe these sleep cycles for us? Because you mentioned deep sleep, you mentioned a couple of other things. So for somebody who doesn't understand what's happening to us when we are sleeping and what are the different cycles that are part of that, could you just give us a quick explainer on what happens?

Martin: yeah. Yeah, of course. Let's start with the, with the sleep [00:06:00] architecture. , if you come to my lab, where we use proper lab gr- grade equipment, meaning, brainwaves, sensing electrodes are getting stuck to your... attached to your head, so your scalp. and we, we actually record the electrical signals from your brain surface for all the nights.

we will observe Certain specific characteristics, and those are sleep stages for the night. And like I said earlier, they, they happen in 19 min- around 19-minute cycles. we would start with something called N1, which stands for non-rapid eye movement sleep stage one, and it typically takes maybe five minutes.

if I were to, to touch your shoulder and start talking to you, you would swear that you were not asleep. But actually, this is the gateway. This is the transition phase, from wakefulness to being asleep. And after, say, five, six minutes, if in the absence of, any noise or external [00:07:00] stimuli, uh, you would slowly transition into the second stage, which we call non-REM two, again, non-rapid eye movement sleep, layer two, which, today's wearables or consumer wearables typically call light sl- call light sleep or core sleep.

And that's majority-- This will be the majority of your sleep. Think probably in the order of forty-five percent in any-- in a healthy adult, that's what we're talking about. and it's not that it's less important. I want to see healthy proportions of each sleep stages. Continuing, we, we go even deeper, and, we finally get a descend into non-REM three, which is called deep sleep.

in an adult, say thirty, forty years old, this should be, let's say, between fifteen and twenty, twenty-two percent of your nights,of your deep sleep. Uh, your deep sleeps would constitute around twenty, up to twenty-two percent of your total sleep time. [00:08:00] And

As we go deeper, as we descend into the depths of your sleep, your, our bodies slow down. heart rate goes down, respiratory rate goes down, unless you did some stupid things like,very, uh, large meal late in the evening. We can- we'll, we'll come back to this. but your, your, your brainwaves get deeper and the amplitude, the, the height of the brainwaves gets higher.

There's-- They get stronger and they, and they get slower. finally, from deep sleep, as we move progressed through the nights, we emerge, we go, go higher into lower, into more shallow sleeps stages until we reach rapid eye movement sleep or paradoxical sleep, which at the first glance on, on the brainwave monitor, looks like you're awake.

It almost looks like you're awake. Um, the entire body is paralyzed with the exception of your eyeballs. This is why [00:09:00] we, we call it REM sleep, rapid eye movement. this is why we also need sensors around your, around your eyes to pick up on this, on, on the unique movements. Now, this is fascinating. I have to give you a story there.

when a lot of dreaming happens. Uh, contrary to the popular belief, REM is not the only time where we dream. It is absolutely possible to dream in other sleep stages. Uh, it just when, where dreams are happen most often and are most vivid. REM sleep is critical for emotional processing.

REM sleep is critical for memory consolidation. Going back to dreams, this, I find this fascinating. This is when your body's completely paralyzed. It's called complete muscle atonia. And the reason for that is, is just fantastic. I love it. imagine that you could fly. Imagine that you're Superman, you're, you're Clark Kent.

If this were t- was true, and you could move your muscles, you would [00:10:00] literally go to a window and try to fly. This muscle paralysis was an evolutionary mechanism that stops us from acting out on our dreams. it's to protect us from, enacting your dreams in re- in real life. Wow. I, I find that fascinating.

Kush: Wow. I've heard about REM sleep. One of my favorite bands of all time is called REM. Of course, yeah. So, so, so I feel like REM has been in the popular vernacular for a long time, but I won- I wonder how many people understand the- 

Martin: That it's a rap- rapid eye movement, right? ... 

Kush: the association with how the body has...

Wow, this is such This is this fascinating story about evolution that, that we have been evolved to dream, but then nature has also counterbalanced that by- Yeah ... paralyzing our body. And yeah, crazy that, uh ... Oh. Okay, Martin, dumb question. And [00:11:00] why are we dreaming? 

Martin: that's not a dumb question at all.

And I think that there's a, there's a lot of theories that it's essentially, how do I put it? Defragmenting your hard drive and s- and cleaning up all the, all the inputs throughout the day. I don't think there's a single good theory why are we dreaming. a lot of it is associated with emotional processing.

the evidence of that might be, I, I can give you the other side. If we're not dreaming, if we are robbed of REM sleep, your amygdala,the brain's fear center, is around 60% more reactive the next day. This is when fights happen. This is when you, when you lash out on your partner. this is when you pick up a fight with your co-founder.

pre- precisely because of that, 'cause like you didn't have the dreaming time, and you're just so much more reactive to even- Wow ... the slightest stimuli. Interestingly, faces appear more threatening. literally human faces appear more threatening. that's in the absence of [00:12:00] the dreaming sleep stage 

Kush: You dropped a couple of things that I wanna unpack.

okay, so first I wanna start out with, you used this term earlier on, you called it sleep architecture. I've not heard of sleep being described like that. And it's obvious that there are different stages of sleep. Are all of these stages equally important, or there are some stages that are more important?

Martin: Sure. Great, great question, Kush.

And let's, um, yeah, let's talk about sleep architecture. when I say architecture, first of all I want to see all of the sleep stages that we talked about. So a bit from no- NREM one, non-REM 1 through NREM 3. I want to see, I want to see your, your REM sleep. as I said, they happen in, in about 90-minute long cycles.

Uh, some interesting things like some sports sleep coaches for, like, high-level football teams, or if I [00:13:00] recall correctly, it was the sleep coach... They, they actually did have a sleep coach. The sleep coach of Team Sky, the, the U- UCI Cycling Team,he came up with this very novel idea is, like, instead of measuring the total sleep time of his athletes, of his riders, uh, he would count the number of complete 90-minute sleep cycles in a week-long training sprint.

I, I found this fascinating. It was like, it's so important to have those complete sleep cycles. but it's not just the number that matters. It what... It's what happens when. So let me, let me walk you through this. Let's assume for a second, and we will come back to chromotypes,in just a moment.

That's another term that, that I really want to unpack for you, and it's critical. But let's say you are someone who s- typically goes to bed at 10:00 PM and gets up at 6:00. that's my preferred routine. I like to go to bed around 10:00, 10:30 PM, and I'm usually, I wake up without an alarm, [00:14:00] uh, by 6:00 AM.

now if for some reason And so for simplicity, let's say 10, 10 through 6, AM, that's eight hours of sleep. I would normally get most, almost all of my deep sleep will happen the first four hours. Okay? Most of my REM sleep will happen towards the morning If for some reason my sleep is shorter on any given night, the effects of, on my body depend on which end we trimmed.

Push me to go to bed later, and you just robbed me of my deep sleep. Uh, make me get up earlier, and I'm gonna be more reactive. You just killed my dreaming time. So what the consequences depend on which end of the night you're, you're sacrifice. if you tell me, "Hey, what about the weekends?

What about if I go to bed later and then sleep in?" I would say, "Well, it's not ideal." [00:15:00] It is not ideal. Your body doesn't shift the zones so quickly, uh, the, the, the sleep stages so quickly. it takes time to, to readjust. It's literally what, what jet lag is Now, I promised you I'll, I'll talk a little bit about chronotypes 'cause, like, that's what I see as a broader part of sleep architecture.

So chronotype is your genetically determined preference for bedtime. Okay? So someone like myself, who likes to go to bed around 10:00, 10:30 PM and get up at 6:00, I would classify them as a normal type. Uh, would you, would you tell me what time do you like to go to bed? 

Kush: can you repeat that term again?

Martin: What's it- Nor- normal type. Normal type. Normal. Oh, 

Kush: normal, okay. So, okay, 10 to 6- 

Martin: Normal type. 

Kush: Yeah. Yeah. 10:00 to 6:00 PM. Okay, 10:00. I would say that I am, like, the 11:30- 

Martin: Okay ... 

Kush: to 7:30. 

Martin: Okay. That's my- So we're roughly speaking in the same ballpark. Like, you're, you're a bit later than me, but, like, still n- not, not too [00:16:00] much.

I'm asking you this because, that's another great story on evolution, uh, on s- the evolution of sleep. I love it. roughly speaking, we have three categories in our society. Uh, th- those... the distinction is not as clear, it's clear-cut. There's obviously, like, a, a whole, you know, array of, of shades there.

but people who go to bed very early and wake up very early, morning larks, right? So a morning lark would be happy to go to bed around 8:30 PM, but they're fully alert, operational by 4:00. No alarm clock needed, right? Then there's people like you and me, uh, and, and the majority of population, normal types, um, who in the absence of a, an alarm clock or, or, like, external stimuli, will wake up around 6:00, 7:00.

And then there's my girlfriend who's a classical musician and an extreme night owl, who would like to go to bed at 1:00 AM and sleep till 11:00. And it's not so easy with chronotypes and modern-day society 'cause, like, [00:17:00] our society is built, you know, around cer- certain structures and expectations, like, say, school times or office times, right?

evolution developed chronotypes as an advan- as a survival mechanism because think about it, if we go back, I don't know, 100,000 years back, and you and, or y- the entire tribe sleeps in a nice cave. If everyone were to be asleep for eight hours at the exact same time, saber-toothed tigers would have had eight hours to pick you all out, right?

But if the, the tribe is roughly divided into a third, a third, and a third, the time where everyone is asleep may, would be maybe two hours, right? So drastically reducing our risk exposure But this brings me to another point on sleep architecture. it is essential that if you can, you sleep within your chronotype window.

So my point is, [00:18:00] for you and me, the value of eight hours that fit exactly into your chronotype window, so let's say for you 11:30, 7:30, let's call it you get 100% return on investment on that sleep, okay? If it happens within those specific hours. But if I give you a ton of melatonin and I push you to go to bed much earlier or the other direction, you know, like you're gonna have, uh, four espressos in the evening and stay up until 2:00 AM and then sleep through till midday next day, you're only getting maybe 60 cents on the dollar.

That sleep is nowhere near as beneficial I'm borrowing from Matthew Walker, a wonderful sleep researcher from Berkeley. There's a very good framework that, that talks about, I would say everything combined talks about architecture. it's Q, QRT. Quality, quantity, regularity, and timing.

So quality is like I want to [00:19:00] see all the stages. Quantity, I want you to sleep around seven and a half hours. Regularity, and we'll come back to this, shortly, is like our bodies crave regularity. They love the same bedtime. They absolutely love the same bedtime. And timing is sleeping where your chronotype is, where the optimal window is

Kush: Wow. That is so fascinating. So what I'm learning is that... Okay, you use the term chromotype. Chrono, 

Martin: yes And- From, from chronos, from the Latin from, for time, yes. 

Kush: Okay. So what I'm learning is that we are genetically programmed- 

Martin: Yes ... 

Kush: to sleep and wake up at this optimal time for each of us. 

Martin: Yes. 

Kush: So what you're saying is that some of us are predisposed, maybe there's this normal type and- 

Martin: Yes ... 

Kush: and maybe let's just, hypothesize that most of us are programmed to [00:20:00] sleep in this normal time window and wake up at this normal time window. But then some of us are early larks, like sleep, go to sleep early- Mm-hmm, 

Martin: and then wake up, wake up early next morning. And then some of us are, you know, the late night owls. 

Yes. Yes, 

Kush: yes. Like, like your lady over there who's... Because I grew up in a traditional family. 

Martin: Okay. 

Kush: And the wisdom used to be, like, I think my parents are early larks, you know, they...

Ever since I've known them, they have- 

Martin: Okay ... 

Kush: basically woken up at 5:00, 5:30. It's pretty rare that I have reached them before they have woken up- Mm-hmm ... or I have woken up before, before they are. But the message that I used to always get from my family is that, "Hey, if you're sleeping in, then there's something wrong with you, and that you're lazy."

Martin: Yeah. 

Kush: because I was younger, I used to sleeping longer. But you're saying that that is normal for some of us to sleep and wake up at different times. So do [00:21:00] we normally fall into the sleep cycle that is best for us? or sometimes we are fighting and doing things which are not ne- Wonderful.

Martin: Wonderful, Kush. I'm so glad you asked that question. Yes. Yes, you're, you're, you're, you're spot on. You're spot on. So allow me to start with the following. the, your chronotype, and actually the, the clock that drives it, the internal body clock that drives it, it's called the circadian rhythm. 

Kush: Right?

Martin: And it's governed by a master clock sitting just... It's like a tiny, clump of neurons, around 20,000 neurons or something, uh, sitting on, on, on top of the optic nerve in your brain. And this is, this is the master clock, and it sends the signal to all the body organs, telling the body, like, what do we think the internal time is.

And they... The reason- researchers discovered that- If I remember correctly, I think it was [00:22:00] 1938, two researchers from University of Chicago went down the Mammoth Cave in Kentucky. And they, they went down, down deep into the cave, and they stayed in complete, almost complete darkness for a month. arguably growing very impressive facial hair.

they looked like literally cavemen after emerging from this cave. Uh, but the point w- the point was to measure if they would wake up regularly, and when would they go to, to sleep in the absence of external stimuli, in the, especially in the absence of light, but also in the absence of, let's call it societal cues.

and it turns out that they did, and our circadian rhythm is roughly around 25 hours, so it's slightly longer than the, than, uh, the day and, and night cycle. 

Kush: Hey, very quickly, uh, what 

Martin: is- Yeah, 

Kush: no ... circadian rhythm again? 

Martin: [00:23:00] Circadian rhythm. So it's, it's from Latin, it means around, about around day rhythm. think about it as, as, uh, your internal body clock.

Ideally, you want this clock to be aligns with the real clock, meaning this is when you see it disrupted most often in, in two, two situations: jet lag, when there is a huge mismatch between what your Apple Watch says that the time is and what your body think the time is internally. I can give you a personal story here.

I mentioned my, my girlfriend, and she's a classical musician, in Vienna, Austria, whereas I, I live in the Bay Area, uh, California. So I fly regularly from San Francisco to, to Vienna, let's say every four to five weeks. changing my body clock, my circadian rhythm by nine hours, right? [00:24:00] So I developed a, a whole set of tactics, a whole protocol to help me quickly readjust my circadian rhythm.

it's, it's It's critical that you pay attention to this and, um, that's, that's an extreme example. Maybe nine, nine, uh, time zones is an extreme example, but it can... Much simpler things can misalign your circadian rhythm, and we see this in social jet lag. If you go out Friday night, if you go out Saturday nights, or, uh, if work forces you to, get up a Monday through Friday, at a time that's outside your chronotype.

Say, say you're someone who likes to sleep till 9:00 AM, 9 AM or 10:00 AM, right? You're... Let's, let's say you're an, an night owl, but your office job requires you to be in the office at, I don't know, 8:00 AM. You're working against your circadian clock for five days, and then you're rebounding on the weekends, trying to [00:25:00] sleep in or maybe that's not even a, your professional situation, but, uh, you're just someone who likes to stay out very, v- very, uh, go out and then stay very, very late on Satur- Friday and Saturday.

Then you're going into the social jet lag, which is the equivalent, very often it's the equivalent of, " Hey, let's go to New York from San Francisco for two days and come back." you're, you're gonna feel this. You're gonna feel those three hours, right? And then back Mon- Monday morning, you're trying to, to force your body,into its, its previous time zone, and it doesn't work like that.

if you're not employing special tactics and regularity and a lot of discipline, uh, the rule, the rule of the thumb is if you fly eastward, you're going to adjust around 50 minutes per day. So, like, when I fly to Europe, I need around 10... I would normally need around 10 days to fully realign, right?

So 50 minutes per day, I have nine hours [00:26:00] of difference, roughly 10, 10 nights. Coming back here is easier always, always adjusting. Flying west is easier 'cause it's just easier to stay up longer than to force yourself to go to bed earlier. Uh, so you can typically, norm- normal adults can do around two hours per day of adjustments 

Kush: Let's get back to that point about identifying one's chromotype.

Martin: Yes. Absolutely. 

Kush: Can you advise us if- 

Martin: yes, yeah ... 

Kush: what's the simplest way we can identify are we actually sleeping the way we have been programmed to? 

Martin: absolutely, and that's a, that's a great point. I, I like that you asked that question 'cause, that's, um, establishing the baseline. Figuring out your chronotype is, is one of the very first things I, I like to do with my patients.

there are two ways to do it A super easy one, which is get a high quality wearable device. Uh, no affiliation with the company, but I really like Oura Rings. Of all the wearables, I know [00:27:00] there's a, there's a bunch of different rings. I really like the accuracy of Oura, uh, rings. And Oura uses a number of different sensors, but prim- for this primarily, peripheral temperature sensor.

'Cause I, I... we can come back to this later. Our bodies change their, the core temperature throughout the nights. and this temperature change allows us to pinpoint which sleep stages happened when. By using an Oura Ring or a similar device for, say several weeks, the, the app, the, will sh- will tell you like, "Hey, we think you're this chronotype.

this is your ideal bedtime." if you're not into wearables, there is something called Munich Morningness-Eveningness Questionnaire. Uh, if you just Google it, it's, uh, Mor- Munich as, as the city in Germany. Munich Morningness-Eveningness Questionnaire. It's a bunch of questions, and it's fairly accurate.

It is fairly accurate, esta- to [00:28:00] establish, to estimating what's your, uh, what your chronotype is. finally, there's a number of, there's a number of very accurate tests. Uh, the gold, the absolute gold standards, not really applicable to, to consumer sleep athletes, but, uh, still useful. It's called, dim lights melatonin onset.

Uh, DLMO. And what it means is it's sampling your saliva, on the, for 24 hours to measure the concentration of the sleep hormone melatonin in, in your saliva. Because typically... so melatonin is one of the, the sleep hormones together with, with adenosine and serotonin. And melatonin- Promotes sleep onset.

Among other things, its role is to promote sleep onset. Melatonin will not keep you asleep, but it will help you fall asleep. This is wh- That's the signal to, to go to bed to fall asleep. and it co- its [00:29:00] concentration increases in your saliva towards the evening. so by sampling your, your saliva, measuring the melatonin contents, uh, researchers can figure out, oh, okay, you're someone whose melatonin spikes around that time, and then we can categorize you as a morning lark, normal type, or evening owl 

Kush: Perfect.

So helpful. You've given us options for both using technology, wearing a wearable, and then also completing these, questionnaires and these tests. 

Martin: Yeah. 

Kush: It sounds like- Using a wearable might be the simplest way. You mentioned Oura can do this. Yes. Any other wearables on the market who are just as good at, being able to give us that information?

Martin: yes. I would say any Apple Watch that's generation nine and later. I really like the, the qu- Apple is very, I would say, very conservative and I, I know they, they pay a lot of attention to the [00:30:00] accuracy of their sensors. I do not love Apple Sleep app. I actually think it's pretty horrible, the Apple sleep scoring.

but the, the hardware is fantastic. Uh, what is, what is important that any wearable that you might want to use for this needs to have a high-quality temperature sensor, um, 'cause this is where the circadian rhythm estimation is derived from. I, I like Oura Ring. I like Apple Watch Ultra, especially if you use it with an app called AutoSleep.

I think it does a pretty good job. even though I use my Garmin, twenty four/seven, I'm a huge Garmin fan, uh, it's my go-to device for all my workouts, their sleep is, their sleep algorithm isn't great. that's not great. Yeah, that, I think- That's good. That's good ... this would be my, this would be my order, I 

Kush: think.

Yeah. Y- okay, this is good. So this could be a natural segue to just talk about technology for a moment here. I confess that for somebody who's more obsessed than the average middle-ager about performance, and I happen to host a show, [00:31:00] I am an avoidant. I don't use any wearable. 

And I know that people in my community will speak about using some of the devices you have mentioned, particularly for sleep tracking, and my, my generic excuse has always been that, "Hey, I will know in the morning whether I have slept well or not by the way I'm feeling."

So what is the benefit of wearing a device that tells me that? If I don't sleep well, the device will likely tell me, "Hey, you didn't sleep well," blah, blah, blah. If I have slept well, I will probably not even w- wanna look at my device because I'll be feeling so chipper. So what is the benefit be- beyond just identifying our chromatype, which I can see that.

There's a benefit there. It can, it can either validate our sleep patterns or it can tell us that we should try to change. What are the benefits of [00:32:00] a wearable for helping us rest better?

Martin: Good, good stuff, Kush. So I would say you're among the few lucky individuals. I like the fact that you're so attuned to your body that you, you instantly recognize, yeah, this was, this was a good night of sleep, this was a bad night of sleep. Like, not everyone is like that. Okay? in fact, let me, let, let me tell you this.

I was looking into- Not so much sleep deprivation, but restricted sleep. as a, as a, as a society, we're not getting enough sleep. Okay? And the effects of that are very, very pronounced. In fact, I'm sure that among your listeners there's probably a ton of people who routinely operate on six hours or less than six hours per night.

Like I know I had periods in my life where I had to just go for weeks on six hours. 100%. And you would think like, "Hey, come on. Like, like six hours doesn't sound so bad, right?" 

Kush: [00:33:00] 100%, yeah. Right. This... Uh, self, self included. 

Martin: Yeah. Okay. But, but you know, this is, this is actually very insidious because six hours...

I, I know like I need my seven and a half. I do, I really do. if I sleep six, only six, I feel it. I feel it. I can, I can push through the day, but I am not my 100%. And if you push me the s- the second night to sleep again six hours, and the third night, I will feel sleepy, right? But by night four, I will tell you like, "Hey, Kush, I am sleepy.

I'm still able to perform. I'm not my best, but I think, I think like, yeah, let's, let's just continue." And let's say I continue with the six-hour nights. Our ability to recognize progressive decline, cognitive decline, uh, lapsing memory, attention span lowering, shortening, is very limited. Past three or four nights, you think you're not getting worse, whereas you are [00:34:00] continuously getting worse and your memories gets, shorter and...

Uh, sorry, attention span gets shorter and me- memory gets worse. Your cognitive performance declines. I'm giving you this, this story illustrating the this, the effects of long-term sleep deprivation or restriction, um, to illustrate the value of wearables. some people don't even recognize.

They don't even recognize that they're chronically sleep-deprived. I see ... it's, it's great if you're attune, attune to your body and very aware. That's phenomenal, and I'm not saying you have to change that, and you absolutely need to buy a smart ring. You don't. but for anyone who comes to me and wants to improve their sleep, I say, "Okay.

Hey, we... I can come up with two dozen different interventions, and some of them will move the needle more than others. But, let's not operate blindly. Let, let's figure out what your baseline is." Like, either you're super disciplined and you promise you're going to [00:35:00] give me a sleep diary for two weeks where you will write exactly when you went to bed, when you switched off the lights, when did the alarm ring, and how many times did you hit the snooze button, or just, just get a good wearable.

And like, whereas wearables are not great in sleep stages. like, we have to come back to this 'cause this is very important. Do not obsess about, "Oh, my Oura Ring told me I had 17% of deep sleep and I wanted 22." They're not great at measuring stages. In order to measure sleep stages, you need a clear signal from the brain.

You need the brainwaves. this is the direct signal. Anything that happens on your finger, anything that happens on your wrist, that's a very good guesstimate by a wearable device. What wearables are very good at is circadian rhythm, which we covered already, and they're also very good in measuring sleep onset, so when you, when you actually went to bed, when you, when you fell asleep.

Uh, they're [00:36:00] very good at measuring awakenings. So if you get up at 2:00 AM and need to go to the bathroom, they will pick that up they're very good at measuring regularity, which arguably is the one thing... If there's only one thing, your, your listeners will take away from our discussion today, it's like, give me regularity.

Regularity trumps duration any day. In fact, like, I, I have to keep coming back to this. Regularity is a better predictor of all-cause mortality, so like death from all different causes, than duration. If there's only one thing- Wow ... you're gonna give me, and you say like, "Martin, I cannot give you more than six hours.

Like, that's just my life." I say, "Kush, okay. Okay. I can work with that. Give me the six hours, but I want those six hours delivered on the dot every single night." if it's 11:30 PM, it's not 12, it's not [00:37:00] 10:45. It's 11:30. Ideally, you're gonna give me both. You're gonna give me both the duration and regularity.

But if you only, if you can only give me one, regularity. And this means Monday, Friday, and Saturday, Sunday, that there's no difference, right? 

Kush: Amazing answer because, yeah, I think you have ... Yeah, I think you are evangelizing me a little bit here. Okay. And I think people listening will also, I think, see the benefit of being able to track one's sleep over time because we might be missing signals.

Our own anecdotal evidence- Mm ... is not enough. We- Yeah ... might want to look at that data, and yes, keeping a sleep diary, yes, it's very hard. people don't do those ki- those kind of things. Same as, like, trying to track your food habits. You know, after a point, like, you stop doing that because you lose that habit.

And I think the other thing you also gave us there is that it's so important that the sleep [00:38:00] pattern, the routine, is more important- Mm-hmm ... than the quantity because I think many of us, we think that, yes, you know, we will go out to this concert at night or we will do something different, like what you call social jet lag, but we will try to sneak in this extra nap in the middle of the day, or we might try to make it up on the weekend.

But what you're telling us, that is not gonna compensate. you have to try to sleep based on your chromotype, which could be- Yeah ... like you said, like sleep a- as a normal person as some- somebody else. But if you follow that, and even if you shortchange that occasionally, you can get past that, but if you break your wake ti- your, your sleep times and your wake times, that is a much bigger deficit.

Yeah. I wanna ask one more foundational question, and then we can move into the next part, which is why is it that sleep touches so much, so many parts of our life? Because I think, if ... It's like, it's like [00:39:00] this. if I sleep well- My mood, my memory, my appetite, my patience, maybe even my relationships, everything seems to flow better.

Martin: Oh, 

Kush: 100%. But if I'm not sleeping well, if I'm not sleeping well, then conversely, all of those suffer. So why is the sleep behavior connected to so much of our life? 

Martin: Kush, I think it's like what we, where we started. The sleep regulates every single system in our body, from being, you know, always on vigilant states, to, to shifting into this, rest and digest mode In the absence of sleep Your body doesn't have the time to repair.

Your hormonal release is completely messed up. ... L- let's, let's stay with hormones for a second. I told you that I have to travel internationally, uh, regularly. And let's take one hormone that's, that everyone is familiar with, [00:40:00] cortisol, the stress hormone, right? It's not all bad.

You, you want your cortisol. Like, it serves a very important function. Uh, and it typically spikes in the morning hours, okay? Just to prime your body for action,get ready for the, the day's activities. So, so picture this. I almost always take the same flights. It's a 9:05 PM LH455 from San Francisco to Munich, and then I connect to Vienna.

cause, like, I... We, we can talk about jet lag some more and how I deal with that. but let's say I, I take my, my evening, my night flights. I arrive in Vienna or Munich, the following afternoon. And for whatever reason, so it's, it's, say, 5:00 PM in Germany, and s- which is 8:00 AM San Francisco. Okay? And for whatever reason, let's say I, I don't know, I'm at my annual checkup or, or [00:41:00] something.

I get my blood work done in Austria. Then they will immediately flag, "Hey, Martin, there's something wrong. Your cortisol is through the roof." No, it's not. It just thinks it's 8:00 AM in San Francisco. My body didn't adjust if you mess with the quality of your sleep, if you mess with the regularity of your sleep, your body never has the time to develop this internal rhythm, "Hey, what do we release when?"

And I can keep going around hormones. Like, if you... There are two hormones that regular- uh, regulate hunger and satiety, ghrelin and leptin. Uh, one tells your body like, "Hey,I'm full. I'm okay. I don't need any more food." The other one says, I'm hungry all the time." So the, the night munchies when you, when you like blindly go to your fridge to get some food, like that is ghrelin telling you like, "Hey, I want more."

Normally it would be suppressed. Normally it wouldn't s- wouldn't be so high. But if your sleep is irregular, if you're not getting [00:42:00] enough, ghrelin production goes up and s- and night binge eating happens. but so that was hormones. Like the, the third one let's, let's call emotional regulation.

You- we, we talked about human faces appearing threatening. We talked about picking up a, a fight with your spouse or business partner. that's the result of insufficient processing. That's the result of not having enough REM sleep. in terms of memory, there are different sleep stages are responsible for different kinds of memory.

So, Probably everyone heard of, you know, like the, or experienced it, like if you pull an all-nighter cramming for an exam in the morning, you probably pass that exam. But all that knowledge will evaporate by the evening the same day, right? there's simply no... Imagine that it was all held in short-term memory, and it was never time to transfer it onto your SSD.

but that's not the only type of memory. Like, um, uh, [00:43:00] movement memory. Let's say you're, you're, you're, I don't know, practicing piano, playing the piano, right? specific sleep stages write down the, the skills for movement. so, so th- this, this would suffer as well, like all different kinds of memory, your emotions.

let me give you a- another story of, of disrupted sleep and what I, I... This is very visual, but I, but I think it, it nicely illustrates the point. So I'm, I'm telling you, I want regularity, I want uninterrupted sleep or, or as few interruptions as possible. I want the proper sleep stages and the proper time.

Um, but let's say it's Friday evening and we're meeting friends, we go out for a delicious d- albeit very late dinner. And I don't know if you're a vegetarian, but like, let's, let's make things even more difficult, let's say you're not, and let's pick something delicious and heavy. Brazilian steakhouse, this is where we're going, okay?

So we went to this Brazilian steakhouse- ... and let's make things terrible. Let's have a two or three glasses of delicious [00:44:00] red wine. so they're serving, serving us Malbec. Great. It tastes wonderful. And all the different cuts, right? And s- uh, we, we finish the dinner at 10:00 PM, okay? So a couple of things happen.

First of all, the red wine Is pushing us to fall asleep sooner. Alcohol acts as a sedative, but it's very tricky. It only puts you to sleep quickly, only to wake you up very, a few hours later. we fall asleep, the food moves along your digestive tract. Your liver is working, your liver is working on the wine, and, and suddenly we have a convergence of two things.

The food is still in your stomach, which was supposed to fall asleep, like as all other body systems. But your stomach says, "Hey, hold on a second. I am full. There is stuff to, that I need to work on. I need digestive enzymes." So your, your stomach, try to [00:45:00] picture this, picks up its MacBook and sends an email to your liver and your pancreas and say, "Hey, guys, send more digestive enzymes.

I have work to do here." So your liver wakes up, your pancreas wakes up, and they say, "Holy shit, night shift tonight. We, we have to work overtime." They start working, and they say, like, "Okay, we're gonna, we're gonna provide what's needed to digest this food. but we, we need energy for that." Okay? So liver starts breaking down sugar storage, long-term sugar storage to get energy for the process, and then it says, "You know, nicely oxygenated blood would be useful."

So it calls your heart and says, "Hey, you start working faster. You start pumping faster." So your heart rate goes up. Your Oura Ring will p- pick that up. and the heart says, "Hey, liver and pancreas demanded more oxygenated blood. They want me to pump faster. I need more oxygen. Let's call the lungs, increase the respiratory rate."

So your, your whole respiratory system starts, starts working [00:46:00] faster, right? And now you have this reverse cascade. It's one system awakes another system, and awakes another system, and awakes another system, very soon your entire body's awake, all while your liver is working hard on producing alcohol dehydrogenase to break down the delicious red wine.

Wow. And it's 3:00 AM, and you're wide awake. you fell asleep quickly. The dinner was delicious, but 3:00 AM and you're wide awake wondering what to do. 

Kush: Wow. Yeah, I think many people listening will immediately relate to just that, where, yes, alcohol does sedate. 

Martin: Yeah. 

Kush: but then all these, all this- The 

Martin: whole cascade will happen, right?

Kush: This whole corrosion is happening in the background. Right. Like, it's upsetting. Like, you know, this golf ball that has now run amok, it's off the golf course, and it's, like, just, bulldozing through the trees and the fields because your, your system is, is reacting to this big change that [00:47:00] alcohol introduced.

And yes, you know, you wake up in the middle of the night and all of this all of these things happen. I wanna talk a little bit about what changes as we age. 

Martin: Mm. 

Kush: Right? So- 

Martin: Yes ... 

Kush: let me just start with that question, you know, because I believe that When I was younger, I could just go to sleep and sleep for long durations, and I think those things have shifted now.

So I wanna first start with, yeah, what changes with age- 

Martin: Great. Great. I, I... Let me, let me start with the most important thing. it is not true that older people need less sleep. I know we, we, we keep hearing this, I know we keep seeing this. In reality, it's the body's ability to generate enough sleep drive that changes. Older people sleep less because their bodies cannot generate enough sleep. It's not that they need less sleep. It- they, they, they need the same seven and a half, eight hours.

so that's, that's the, [00:48:00] the first s- statement. what changes, th- there is a number of things

First of all, let's start with melatonin, right? Melatonin is, is a sleep hormone. It's naturally produced by our bodies in the pineal glands. and our ability to produce melatonin atrophies with age. actually declines with age. What happens is the tiny, organ, the pineal gland that secretes melatonin calcifies, and it's simply unable to produce enough melatonin.

which also means that... I'm not saying this is great for everybody, but as we get older, let's say when once you reach your, your mid-60s, 70s, supplementing small doses of melatonin is a very good idea. say not what you get at, at Whole Foods or Trader Joe's, not the mega doses of 10 milligrams strawberry flavored.

But if you can get some, like 10 milligrams, but if you can get one milligram, that's more than enough. Our bodies [00:49:00] naturally produce, secrete 0.5 milligrams of melatonin, and that's enough. if you need to supplement, not everything will get absorbed. A one milligram pill of melatonin an hour before bed is a good idea.

Okay? So that was change number one. That was change number one, our body's ability to produce melatonin. two, the critical, the very important, uh, deep sleep. it's... Deep sleep means very synchronized, high amplitude, slow waves. Okay? And they're mo- slow wave sleep, so slow brain waves. And they are mostly produced by the medial, the central prefrontal cortex, so the part of your brain.

Unfortunately, as we age, this is one of the first areas where we lo- where we lose brain matter, meaning our brains are [00:50:00] simply not generating rhythms, sleep rhythms that are s- as strong as, as they were when we, when we were younger Thirdly, Sleep and temperature regulation. And then I, I do wanna come back or please ask me that question later 'cause, like, this is important.

Um, our ability to thermoregulate is,it's a very close, closely knit relationship with sleep. Uh, as we get older, our metabolism slows down, and our ability, our body's abilities to thermoregulate declines, which drives the, the decline in, in sleep quality. Uh, so that's, that was temperature.

That was number three. four is as we get older, there, there's a number of changes. So men lose deep sleep. I think if I remember correctly, it was around two, 2, 3% per decade. interestingly, women are somewhat immune for... to immune to deep [00:51:00] sleep loss, but they do lose REM sleep. So everyone's so-somewhat screwed.

but the entire circadian clock shifts earlier. I want to tell you this 'cause, like, I am looking into something fascinating into the sleep characteristics of world's longest populations. You've probably heard of the blue zones. so now I'm actually looking at sleep in, uh, Sardinian centenarians.

And it seems that one of the things that's kept them in this remarkable health into their hundreds is the ability to generate enough sleep. That they could be 95, they could be 102, and they sleep as well as, as when they were 70. which is fascinating, which is very unique.

so to, to summarize it, it's lowered melatonin production, lower amplitude of circadian rhythm, decline in thermoregulation, uh, the [00:52:00] entire circadian clock moving, shifting earlier. So, like, you could make an argument that the elderly live like during the permanent sta- state of, of mild jet lag 

Kush: Yeah.

Yeah, I feel many people will nod their heads with that particular statement and you educated us with this keystone principle, again mind blow moment that it is not that as you get older you need less sleep- Mm-hmm ... you are just not able to sleep as much and one cause is the slowing down of melatonin production and-

You gave us this one remedy, which is y- you know, start consuming melatonin, you told us, like, educated us on, like, what quantity. Can you, yeah, can you actually give us a bit more information, Martin, on, on how would a typical person, let's say they are... Uh, uh, like, at what age do- Mm-hmm

are the changes most [00:53:00] significant when people should start considering, like, a, like, a intervention like this? 

Martin: Mm-hmm ... 

Kush: and then how do we measure if that's working, and how do we then maybe change our dosage or calibrate? So maybe give us, like, some kind of protocol on how 

Martin: we- Yeah ... can use- Yeah, that's a good point.

Uh, let's start with... I like that question, Kush. Let's, why don't we start with, measuring? So we, for that, we need to go back to wearables just for a second. because there's one, one critical point that I want all of you guys to, to, uh, understand and, and remember. I g- I have a lot of wearables, okay?

On any given night, I probably have, like, four different wearables. I have my Oura, my Ultrahuman, I have my Garmin, and I have my Apple Watch, and I have sensors in my bed. And the- If I look at any given night, I pretty much guarantee that every single device will show, will give me a different sleep score.

Okay? Like, some of them will be close, some of [00:54:00] them will be like, probably my Garmin and my Oura will be in absolute opposite ends of the spectrum. and I'm telling you this to illustrate a point that like do not trust your wearable on any given night. Like, Oura is good, but still. what you can trust is a week-long trend.

Please work with trends. that's my main message here. So like this was what we're gonna use for measurements. as for when would I start supplementing melatonin, probably the quick answer would be in my 60s.

but I think the, the more precise answer is like n- it does... if you're 65 and you sleep very well, I'm not saying you have to take any melatonin. That's not the point. Like, it's not one size fits all. Um, I would only consider... Like, I'm in my early 40s and I, uh, take melatonin fairly regularly because of my lifestyle, because I, I travel between Europe and the West Coast so often.

So like typically my protocol calls for about three nights [00:55:00] of melatonin before and maybe three nights after, plus the travel day. so, so yes, I do use it. I don't want- That's great ... anyone to blindly just start popping melatonin every single night. whi- whereas majority of studies say that it is very safe, fairly recently there, have been, um, some studies indicating that, that perhaps it's not so great, so like I would not just take it blindly.

as for the protocol, I think what is much more regular... I can, I can give you two things here, which is something that I do for myself. I compared earlier changes in sleep to jet lag, right? Whereas jet lag is something that I very often go for. So in order to cope with it efficiently, and like now I'm, I'm, I'm really good.

Like, I typically lose a day of productivity, only one day of productivity on each international trip. But the, the way I do it is... A- and I'm happy to work with you on,on, on this, but it's number one, I establish my [00:56:00] chronotype. Once I know what it is, I try to build my life around it if circumstances allow, right?

Meaning when do I have my breakfast? When do I have my lunch? When do I have my dinner? When do I work out? And now I'm, I'm super particular about it. So like I would- If, if possible, I would only do cardio, my endurance training. So I do, three days of endurance and three days of resistance training per week.

One day off. And I would only do my endurance training in the morning, getting the benefit of morning lights. I would only do my resistance training in the evening. I try to avoid, high intensity in the evening 'cause this keeps me awake. and I take everything as a package. So my bedtime, my light exposure, my coffee, my resistance training, my strength training, I use them as modifiers, and I gradually start shifting them by 40, 30 to 45 minutes, per [00:57:00] day up to three to four days before my international travel.

And then I conti- So this is my pre-travel routine. Then I have my travel day, and I'm very particular that I only take night flights. You get, some sleep on the, on the, on the fly, during flights. And then I have my post-travel routine. This is a trade-off of, you know, of a little bit of daily discomfort three days prior that actually allows me to be, say, 80% operational, w- the message is regularity extends beyond sleep. It extends to my physical activity. Mm. It extends to my, my diet. It extends to my coffee.

This, this helps me- Wow ... deal, deal, deal effectively with 

Kush: jet lag. Yeah, no, su- super valuable. Yes, the routine and those habits, they need to work with your sleep. again- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm ... I guess even though this conversation is about sleep, but it is important to underscore that [00:58:00] ultimately the goal is to promote good health and good recovery.

Sleep is part of that puzzle, and it needs to work with all those other pieces Martin. just going back to being able to do the right things in order- Mm-hmm ... to compensate for changes that happen as we get older, you educated us that we can get that data from, again, variables or questionnaires that can help us understand where there's opportunity, and that will then instruct us these interventions.

So the one with melatonin, that's a good one. But you also mentioned some of these other habits and routines that are important for us to be highly functioning, but they, I think, also contribute to get the right amount of sleep, right? Mm-hmm. So I was wondering if you can help us [00:59:00] walk through some of those important things that we need to address when it comes to establishing a good sleep routine.

You have worked with, I mean, you work with people every day, so there's a lot of data I think you draw upon. You have also studied other populations who seem to have perhaps, uh, mastered or learnt more about effective sleep, like people in the blue zones, because looks like their sleeping, their resting, is likely promoting longevity So let's start with just coming up with a good system of habits- Mm-hmm.

Martin: Mm-hmm ... 

Kush: that can help us sleep better. What would you start with? 

Martin: Okay. that's great. Let's design a protocol. I would include the following. the absolute number one we started with is let's [01:00:00] measure, otherwise we don't know what we're changing, okay? So this is done. we, we have our Oura rings.

two, we introduce as much regularity as possible into our lives, okay? this means, uh, bedtime and awake times. if you have the flexibility, I would extend it to mealtimes. Our bodies crave regularity, so, like, that's, that, that would be my, my, my second step. And let's talk about stimulants.

I love my coffee. I absolutely have my coffee. I'm sure many of you do, too, as well. but the common knowledge, but I think worth, worth mentioning, worth repeating, usually caffeine has a half-life of 8 to 10 hours, right? So if you have that afternoon cup of coffee at 4:00 PM, half of that caffeine is still circulating in your system around midnight, okay?

That's like... We, we don't think of it, but, like, it's, it's, it's okay if you had one coffee, but, like, if you had four throughout the [01:01:00] day, that accumulates. you know, another good hack that I, that I tried on myself is, like, I did, s- um, I did some genetic testing on myself, and I found out that I'm a slow caffeine metabolizer, so it, it means my body needs longer to break that caffeine down, which I translated into a rule I will not have a, even a single cup of coffee past, past noon.

usually 11:00 AM is my cutoff time for coffee I will have a, a, you know, a cold iced matcha, wonderful. I will have a cup of tea. That amount of caffeine doesn't seem to destroy my sleep, but I will absolutely not have coffee past, past 11:00, 12:00 PM. 

Kush: 

Martin: , So the other foundational things is your overall sleep hygiene, and now I mean napping. Okay? Napping, that's, that's an easy one, but like I'll... My rule would be- No more than 30 minutes, and no [01:02:00] later than eight, maybe seven hours before your planned bedtime.

Meaning if you go to bed at 11:00, your cutoff time for napping is 3:00 PM. Okay? Because if you nap after, if, if you, if you take a, a 6:00 PM nap that's 45 minutes, you're clearing adenosine, which is the sleep thresher hormone. Okay? And this is what, what competes with, with caffeine, and this will destroy your night's sleep.

if you are a fast caffeine metabolizer, if the coffee doesn't really affect you so much, one wonderful that you could do is a, is a caffeine enhanced power nap. Let's say you sleep... You drink an espresso, you take a nap for 20 minutes at 2:00 PM. By the time caffeine kicks in, your nap is done and you get the doubled benefit of a nap and s- It-

and coffee. This is, this is wonderful ... 

Kush: it... Would they what the cool kids call, uh, ca- cappuccinos? 

Martin: Oh, yeah. A cap- a cappuccino. 

Kush: [01:03:00] Something like that? Yeah. 

Martin: Yeah. 

Kush: Okay. Okay, got it. So sure, you can, like, you can hack it by... You take the caffeine shot through an espresso or something else, and then you take that power nap, and then you wake up, and all of a sudden, like, you're energized because- Yeah

because the caffeine has kicked in. But why nap at... I do like my naps sometimes. Mm-hmm. But, but, like, why even mention naps? Should we not try to get all our sleep at night? 

Martin: Uh, not necessarily. Not necessarily. Like, like, there, there, there's a lot of advantages to napping. you know, we, we didn't always sleep in a single eight-hour bout of sleep.

It wasn't always the case. and the midday recharge can do wonders. I think some of the world's greatest thinkers were routine nappers. if I recall correctly, both Einstein and I think it was Edison, they had that habit of napping while holding steel, marble steel balls in their hands. a just a heavy [01:04:00] steel ball.

the, the, the best ideas came to them in non-REM sleep one, for the first, like, 10, five, 10 minutes. And as they were falling into deeper sleep, the muscle paralysis would kick in. They would drop the ball, and the sound of the ball hitting the floor would wake them up. so they got the benefit of, like, automatically timing their nap and making sure they didn't go in too deep into their sleep to be groggy, and s- and, you know, completely destroyed for the next hour 

Kush: Well, trust these great thinkers to come up with, uh- Yeah

novel ways to get their rest without over-resting. What about... Okay, moving past that, what about getting into- Into, you talked about mealtimes. So is it important for us to adhere to certain mealtimes? they talk about, not eating our final meal, not,too close to our, our bedtime. 

Martin: Yeah. 

Kush: So talk a little, little bit about, about that, and also if it [01:05:00] matters what we eat.

Martin: yes. Yes. Uh, that's a great question. and the, the answer is pr- fairly simple. Three, two, one. Three means three hours before bed, no more food. So give yourself at least three hours. That's very actionable. Two hours before bed, no screens.

or what I'm trying to say is, like, I'm trying to shut down my work routines, my work stuff two hours before bed. I will probably occasionally cheat and read on my Kindle, and it's not like, you know, all the screens are bad, but it's more about the intensity of light over light intensity and the stimulation from content.

Uh, and then one hour before bed, no liquids, 'cause, like, I don't wanna have to get up and pee at night. Um- 

Kush: Okay, so the three to one cycle is, like, ideal, right? Yes. Yes. But, but, like, living in, yeah, living in, like, this kinda crazy world we live in, it's not easy to adhere- 

Martin: No, 

Kush: it's not ... to all of these rules.

So what [01:06:00] is, that minimum, where if we go past this or if we don't do this, then it starts seriously affecting. Like, what's maybe one rule we can follow where- 

Martin: Mm. 

Kush: You know what? I, I- ... if three to one is ideal, but 

Martin: what is the next best? If you... Yeah, okay. Okay. that's fair. That is fair.

If you cannot do, uh, by the, the, the hard three-hour rule, I would also think about front-loading your calories. so let's say the three hour would be my strict rule if we go out for the Brazilian steak dinner. But that's not ideal on its own, right? Like maybe a better idea is to have a high protein breakfast and like front-load your calories earlier in the day.

Maybe you can have a sizable lunch, and it's okay if your dinner was just, you know, a, a small bowl of salad with some protein, rather close to bed. 'Cause like that's, that's not going to be a, a terrible effort for your body to digest that. I think there are two, two ways to think about it.

Either you give [01:07:00] yourself a lot of time if the meal was s- was heavy. but if it's, if it's not a big portion and it's light, obviously it's better- So what 

Kush: would be... What would be the kind of food which one can maybe consume, let's say com- you know, let's say one comes back home late at night and one needs to go to bed, but I know for myself, I find it hard to go to sleep on an empty stomach.

An empty 

Martin: stomach, right. 

Kush: So what would be, the least damaging type of food one can eat late? 

Martin: I think you're gonna be okay with a, with a salad and some protein added to it. Uh- Okay ... that's, that's, that's probably going to be 

Kush: easier- I'm just making a salad is too much work. I mean, I'm ta- Okay

what about eating, what about a simple, like, peanut butter, sandwich? Or, like, I like that. I sometimes like to graze on nuts late night when- 

Martin: Mm-hmm ... 

Kush: uh, or maybe something even in granola. Actually, I like muesli better. So what about those foods? 

Martin: I think n- I'm, I think I'm okay with nuts. they will not spike your, your blood sugar [01:08:00] quickly, whereas granola will, right?

Unless- 

Kush: Okay ... 

Martin: you, you, you... this may, this may disrupt your sleep with, uh, there's- The sugar is- Unless you- Sugar is the- Yeah, yeah ... 

Kush: culprit. Yeah. And- 

Martin: Yeah ... 

Kush: it sounds like you're also not advocating a nightcap, like a late night, uh- 

Martin: I am not. I am not. Absolutely not. like, um, let's... You know what? Why don't we all take a lesson from centenarians.

they're... There's no mention of complete absenteeism or so- sorry, um, not, not drink- not drinking at all. but they would s- they will, they would have their glass of wine with, um, their friends around 5:00 PM A nightcap, different story. I- Sure ... it will put you, it will sedate you, it will, it will put you to bed quickly, but not, n- n- not recommended for great sleep architecture.

Kush: you mentioned, yes, we went over it. Okay, I wanna ask a slightly contrarian question, like, uh- ... an experiential question, and I sense that many listeners might also [01:09:00] relate, which is, there are times that I am doing everything right. I'm coming as- Mm-hmm ... close to the three to one rule. 

Martin: Okay.

Kush: And I'm still sleeping like shit, right? I, you know, I made my living environment, my room completely dark. I was sufficiently tired. I ate an early dinner, a light dinner, no alcohol, and I will sleep like crap. I will wake up at 3:00 AM and then be restless, and basically, uh, kill my next day. But there also times when I do everything wrong.

I come, I eat out late. I'm, I mostly... Yeah, I eat out late. I eat a heavy meal. I come back. I, maybe I have a drink or two. I come back and I'm scr- scrolling Instagram till super late, and then I pass out, and then I will actually sleep like hours. So why does that happen? 

Martin: I can think of... There's probably a lot of reasons, but I can think of, two, [01:10:00] two areas come to my mind.

in your first example, where you seemingly did everything right, yet still you- the sleep, your sleep wasn't great. we may have covered, I don't know, like, say 10 different sleep interventions, sleep improvement ideas in, in our conversation. Uh, but we, we haven't really talked much about the cognitive side of things.

You know, like, you may, uh, you may adhere to all the rules, but let's say there is a lot of, of emotional stress, of, of cognitive stress going on in your life. Uh, your mind, you're tired, but you're wired, and your mind is racing, and you're constantly analyzing that big work thing that you have coming up tomorrow morning.

You will not sleep great, right? so, um, I'm a, I'm a big fan of closing the loops before going to, to, to bed. Like, even if there are, like, open, open questions in my mind, I would, I literally write them down on paper. If I don't have solutions, I will at least have a plan. It's like, okay, this is when I plan a brainstorming session [01:11:00] on how I'm gonna tackle that problem.

so my brain can calm down. It's like, okay, at least we have a plan. We don't have a solution yet the second s- the second scenario where you did everything wrong yet, yet you slept very well, here what I would think of, perhaps you were in significant sleep debt. you were sleep deprived.

Your body was so exhausted that it was craving and it's gonna get anything you're gonna give it despite the suboptimal conditions. I often see this, you know, like, if there's a night where I slept five hours and I'm destroyed, I can pretty much guarantee that the following night my aura will be super happy.

I'm gonna get 93% 'cause, like, I'll be just compensating for that, very poor night,prior. 

Kush: That makes sense that, yes, there are other things happening in our lives beyond just those- immediate factors. Okay. I'm so glad you talked about this other side, which is cognition and maybe even s- stress, maybe relationships.

how do our relationships affect our sleep? 

Martin: [01:12:00] Okay.

That, that is a great question, Kush. a- and there is a multifaceted answer. let's break it down into, sleep hygiene and sleep timing and intimacy and sleep. I would say something that I struggle with personally is misalignments in my chronotype and my partner's chronotype. And this is where the idea of sleep divorce, two separate bedrooms comes in, uh, which is not a bad idea.

Which is not a bad idea. Like, if, if your living situations allows, allows for that, that's actually a good idea. a somewhat less drastic solution might be to still have your king size bed with two separate mattresses, so you're absolutely minimizing the weight transfer. Or what is very common in Europe, and I almost never see this in the US, is having two duvets.

Because, like, you might have different temperature preference than your [01:13:00] partner. and then the third solution there might be a, albeit an expensive one, but a wonderful one, to get a smart mattress, temperature controlled mattress, like Eight Sleep with individual zones for each partner. so, so that's, that's one all the way from sleep divorce to optimizer- bedroom optimization.

Moving on to sleep and intimacy. there is a fascinating relationship between the two. And s- sex is great for sleep. Uh, sex will lower your heart rates. it definitely will promote deeper sleep. It will promote longer sleep. so there are absolutely huge benefits to, to sleep and s- intimacy.

Um, I remember a paper which says that actually the strongest effect was in sex with or- with an orgasm, followed by, just closeness with your partners, with your partner, without, without an orgasm. Just that proximity, uh, was enough to trigger oxytocin [01:14:00] release and, uh, the feeling of calm and, and safety.

Kush: yeah, so- Once we know what temperatures and what sleep conditions are important, I, I guess it is not rude. You're giving us permission to be maybe a little bit rude and talk to a partner- ... whether, uh, getting different duvets or different matt- different- Absolutely.

Absolutely ... uh, mattresses helps. because I think both partners should agree that they both want to be well rested and 

Martin: well slept. 100%. 

Kush: 100%, okay. So it's an important question, actually, maybe an important conversation we need to be having with our partners, which is, "Hey, what can we do to be able to help each other sleep better?"

Just, talking about sex for a second, okay? So does it make a difference if you're having sex with a longtime partner, versus casual sex? is sex before sleep great for us regardless? 

Martin: That's a great question. I can't... I don't know what the scientific answer is. Like, [01:15:00] quickly thinking about your question, I'm...

My hypothesis would be that both kinds of sex would offer benefits. I think that the more casual encounter will give you the lowering heart rate benefits and-

Possibly deeper sleep. I'm guessing how, wondering how, how vigorous the exercise in question was. whereas intimacy with your long-term partner, I'm guessing offers more emotional stability and feeling of safety, possibly contributing to longer sleep. but this is not a scientific answer.

This is not a... I don't recall any part, any papers comparing that directly. That's a, that's a great question actually, Kush. I have to think about it some more, but my quick hypothesis would be, one has the, the immediate cardiac benefits, more akin to a workout, whereas the second one Meaning, meaning intimacy with your long-term partner, [01:16:00] probably contributes to overall sleep health in the, in the long run 

Kush: And I mean, I can just say anecdotally, it takes one's mind off other things.

So maybe just those benefits of that, uh, hopefully we are present in the activity- Yeah ... and it's allowing us to release stress. 

Martin: you've shared so much with us today. Martin, you are a sleep researcher yourself, right? This is what you do, and you're obviously passionate about your subject. I'm curious, is there something that you learned about yourself, about your routines that promote sleep, and you were like, "Wait a second, I've been doing this thing all wrong," and you self-corrected?

Hmm, let me think about it for a seconds

No, I think I, I, for a long time, I didn't appreciate the, uh, importance of the role of the temperature place,place in, our sleep quality. What [01:17:00] I mean by that is our bodies need to naturally cool down. and, and like everyone heard that like you need a cool dark bedroom.

This is common knowledge. But I think the reasons are, are fascinating and like, I would s- I would often... I, I guess I wasn't paying enough attention to the temperature in my bedroom, as well as some other things such as, the, the showering routine. And like I would typically take my shower in the morning.

But if you want to promote deep sleep,a s- session in a sauna, 15 minutes, or a bathtub, or even a long warm shower in the evening where you allow your body to gradually cool down, will greatly promote deep sleep. the cool down, the temp- temperature transfer from your core to the periphery,is a signal for your body, okay, we're, we're priming for great deep sleep, and I wasn't paying enough attention to that.

I don't know if you ever h- heard this as a kid where maybe your grandma or, or [01:18:00] relative would s- would make you wear socks to bed. and again, this is, this was some, you know, some, some old folk style knowledge. Actually, th- now we know has, has absolutely firm grounding in science. Our feets and our hands, our palms, are primary heat exchangers.

And if the, the body sensor in, in the feet and in the palms, realize, okay, everything is warm here, it means, okay, let's shift all the blood to the hands and the feets to dump all the excess heat. So the heat from the core bo- from the core of the body is being transferred to the periphery, promoting great sleep so back to the, the, the bathtub or shower, like this is a huge effect.

I stopped paying attention to that. Now I would actually take a, an, a warm evening shower then like stand in my, in my bathroom for a minute or two to allow my body to radiate that heat, [01:19:00] and that, that gets me great sleep. 

Kush: I sometimes go to the sauna at my gym. Mm-hmm. I, I try to go three or four days a week, and I think I do notice that, some improvement- Yeah

in my sleep. Yes. Those evenings- Absolutely ... where I've taken a sauna around 8:00 PM or 9:00 PM. We're almost at time. Is there something else that you wanna share that we haven't covered yet?

Martin: I just want to leave the, the audience with the plea for regularity. I know I said it before, but this is worth repeating. Um, guys, if you, if you can, please give your bodies as much regularity as possible. doesn't mean just sleep. This means the morning lights. This means meals, if you can, the workouts.

Um, your bodies will thank you. 

Kush: the first what we need to start with is you advocated for just understanding our sleep. Mm-hmm. So sounds like that's what you're, it starts with under- 

Martin: Establish the baseline. Establish the baseline. Yes, yes. 

Kush: Got it. And then, okay, so let's just repeat those steps one more time.

Establish [01:20:00] the baseline. 

Martin: Establish the baseline. Get a, get a wearable where you work with at least week-long trends. You don't obsess about individual nights, and then you gradually build in regularity into your life, uh, starting with the same bedtime, weekdays and weekends. a huge fan of morning light.

This is the strongest signal and trainmen signal for your circadian rhythm. I do endurance, I do cardio sports in the mornings and resistance in the evenings, and try to add regularity to all other aspects of my life, professional and, and, and, you know, food. As much regularity as possible.

Kush: Wonderful, Martin. You have been amazing. Thank you for giving us so much time.